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Theodoriph
2008-12-09, 03:04 PM
Nice. I wonder what the updated terms of the agreement include.

hobgadling
2008-12-09, 03:06 PM
I'm guessing one of those terms was the arkenpliers. Also, I don't think Ansom is going to read them too carefully.

The Boyce
2008-12-09, 03:06 PM
Who reads those things anyway?

Also, seems Wanda gets the Arkenpliers

Amplify
2008-12-09, 03:07 PM
Ooooh dear. This isn't going to end well if he accepts that.

PePe QuiCoSE
2008-12-09, 03:07 PM
So, if Wanda reaches the floor before Charlie hits "Accept" she can call base :smallbiggrin:

randomnondescri
2008-12-09, 03:08 PM
Lawyer +5
Don't let your army leave home without one.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-09, 03:09 PM
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/stoopidtallkid/humor/motivator9801477.jpg

Miklus
2008-12-09, 03:14 PM
Ayayayayay! Webinar of all people struck him down!

Notice that Wanda is going for the Arkenpliers, not fallen Ansom.

slayerx
2008-12-09, 03:20 PM
Amendments eh? well, the arken pliers are indeed a possibility, but i think it is certain that charlie will want to make sure he gets the Parson's artifact, and quite possibly parson as well... whatever those terms are Ansom will probably accept without reading carefully...

no surprise though that Charlie was still open to working for Ansom; his agreement with Parson kept him uninvolved with transilvito, but not ansom... plus considering he can get parson and the artifact by working with Ansom, it's better business for him to keep working with ansom so he doesn't make it look like he's switching sides (legally and contractually he wouldn't, but people will still see it that way)

And considering Charlie has enough archons to take Paron's garrison, what with his uncroaked not having nearly enough anti-air, Parson seems like he's in trouble... all we can hope is that wanda claims the pliers and THAT in her hands it helps even the fight back out against the archons

evnafets
2008-12-09, 03:20 PM
The Arkenpliers seem to be free falling off the wall down to the jetstone troops below. Wanda doesn't have thm.

Has anyone else tried to read the agreement?


Terms of Alliance

...
...
...bind
...for
...tool
...on with
...for the
... ...

for a term not less than...
more than
mence upon indicat(ion) ...(accep-)
-tance of the following

Compensation shall...
Charlescomm by Je(tstone)

Winged One
2008-12-09, 03:20 PM
What's Charlie going to screw Ansom out of now? Besides Parson and the Arkenpliers, of course.

slurpz
2008-12-09, 03:23 PM
Heh I only noticed the new Erfworld comic because of the massive forum lag.

[sWc]Konman
2008-12-09, 03:25 PM
haha, this is really getting good. im just wondering when stanley will show up and kick charlie out of his airspace.

SteveMB
2008-12-09, 03:26 PM
Ayayayayay! Webinar of all people struck him down!

Notice that Wanda is going for the Arkenpliers, not fallen Ansom.

Also, her orders to the rest of her units were to capture Ansom -- and now that he's grounded without the Arkenpliers, he's pretty vulnerable unless he makes a deal with Charlie to get his boop out of there.

Looking at the terms being offered, I can make out the words "a bind" at the end of the third line. That would seem to sum up Ansom's situation. :smallwink:

slayerx
2008-12-09, 03:29 PM
The Arkenpliers seem to be free falling off the wall down to the jetstone troops below. Wanda doesn't have thm.


They are falling down to gobwinknobs's side of the wall... unless the archon's intercept her, the pliers are as good as hers

SteveMB
2008-12-09, 03:33 PM
They are falling down to gobwinknobs's side of the wall... unless the archon's intercept her, the pliers are as good as hers

That's the impression I got; the stairs look more like a built-in accessway for friendly troops than like any of the siege units we've seen.

DevilDan
2008-12-09, 03:36 PM
Excellent sound effects! "Ka-Boss!" "CROWN"

Also, gotta love the "ehem."

Rhuna_Coppermane
2008-12-09, 03:36 PM
Yeah, I think whatever Ansom does, he has large problems. If I move any closer to the edge of my seat, I am going to fall off.

Whispri
2008-12-09, 03:37 PM
A skillfull bit of ego pricking there. Can anyone see the Uncroaked Archon?


Konman;5445306']haha, this is really getting good. im just wondering when stanley will show up and kick charlie out of his airspace.
There do seem to be a lot of Clouds around...

DevilDan
2008-12-09, 03:42 PM
Konman;5445306']haha, this is really getting good. im just wondering when stanley will show up and kick charlie out of his airspace.

Can't happen until GK's next turn, which is the next day.

"What have you done to it?" The flying carpet seems OK and is still in the air as Ansom is falling, but I suppose Wanda could have somehow frozen it or made it otherwise unresponsive. Or "it" could refer to the arkentool. Could it have somehow fought against Ansom, become heavier or more unwieldy, when facing Wanda?

Radar
2008-12-09, 03:43 PM
So Ansom has put himself between anvil and the hammer. He either gets captured by Parson, or royally screwed by Charlie. The most important part is, he can only blame himself for the whole mess.

On another thing: i hope that Wanda manages to reach Arkenpliers before anyone else.

fendrin
2008-12-09, 03:46 PM
Whoa lag.

I guess that is a good reason for Wanda to take the first attack... she essentially neutralized Ansom's offensive capabilities. The question is 'how?'.

She stuck her staff between the 'pliers jaws but I have a hard time believing that without some sort of magic the 'pliers couldn't snap through the staff. Most needle-nose pliers have wire-cutters in them...

ishnar
2008-12-09, 03:50 PM
- What have you done to it?

Looks like Wanda already has some power over the pliers before she even has it in hand, which gives credence to the whole, pliers were made for wanda theory. Which I believe too.

I think Wanda will retrieve the pliers before Stanley engages and be able to retreat to safety. She's the speculated predictamancer, so she's probably seen this moment for years. The battle is about to turn very nasty though, with charlie in place, I expect all Parson can do is a holding action until Stanley arrives.

Scylfing
2008-12-09, 03:54 PM
all we can hope is that wanda claims the pliers and THAT in her hands it helps even the fight back out against the archons

Yeah that might be GK's only hope now, either that or Ansom not making the deal with whatever the altered terms are. But since we already know that Charlie has enough Archons to take GK, the only thing that would change that is if GK suddenly got a huge boost. So either Wanda gets the 'pliers and goes all Queen of the Damned on us, or...I don't know, maybe they somehow hold out until the last instant when Stanley shows up to save the day?


Ayayayayay! Webinar of all people struck him down!

I cheered too. I had wanted Webby to come back and get up in Ansom's face--well, he did, and then some. :smallbiggrin:


And a question: what is Ansom referring to in his speech bubble in the first panel? That's left me a little confused.

xtrapwr
2008-12-09, 04:05 PM
I hope one day, we can see the full text of that contract.

starlord
2008-12-09, 04:09 PM
So when does Charlie get his turn?

I.e., originally it was before Ansom's turn. He passed on it.

Does that mean he gets to go with Ansom once he becomes an ally?

Or does he have to wait until after Ansom does an end turn?

Mechanically, the turn based stuff seems off. Or is it just which side has initiative? I.e., Ansom has to attack before Wanda can engage him in his turn?

Whispri
2008-12-09, 04:09 PM
Whoa lag.

I guess that is a good reason for Wanda to take the first attack... she essentially neutralized Ansom's offensive capabilities. The question is 'how?'.

She stuck her staff between the 'pliers jaws but I have a hard time believing that without some sort of magic the 'pliers couldn't snap through the staff. Most needle-nose pliers have wire-cutters in them...
Magic Staff? It wouldn't have to hold out for long.


Can't happen until GK's next turn, which is the next day.
Maybe so, but if the surviving Dwagons have a much higher move then the Dwagons that didn't make the cut then it's not impossible they're already back.

Sweetie Welf
2008-12-09, 04:21 PM
The question isn't anymore, "who will win, Parson or Ansom?", but "who will lose less, and watch Charley scoop the market".

SteveMB
2008-12-09, 04:27 PM
Maybe so, but if the surviving Dwagons have a much higher move then the Dwagons that didn't make the cut then it's not impossible they're already back.

He spent part of his last turn (after the ambush) headed back to GK, which makes it possible that he could get back next turn. I don't see any way he could already be back (even leaving out the time/distance issues, can you really imagine him just sitting there under veil and not getting involved?)

ShinyBrowncoat
2008-12-09, 04:30 PM
Why do they have to stay and re-stack? Why did they un-stack in the first place?

I have to agree with the earlier poster that turn-based mechanics get quite confusing and messy if alliances and mercenary agreements can be made and take effect during a single turn (and even during a single combat within a single turn!).

Rekov
2008-12-09, 04:30 PM
Stuff actually happened! I'm so excited. I can't wait to see what is in that revised contract.

Faltenin
2008-12-09, 04:31 PM
So does Hamster get the pliers AND the flying carpet too? Can't wait to see that!

Charlie creeps me out. How long has he had that contract prepared for?

starlord
2008-12-09, 04:34 PM
The question isn't anymore, "who will win, Parson or Ansom?", but "who will lose less, and watch Charley scoop the market".

Charlie is working with old knowledge - i.e., how many Archons does he need to take GK with Ansom holding the Arkenpliers.

Also, who knows, Parson may have done the Arithimancy figuring that Wanda was out of the battle for a bit.

Throw in a return by Stanley and the Lucky Charm breakfast, and Charlie may discover that his information is too stale and he looses the battle.

Think about it, Charlie and his Arkendish connection clearly rely on knowing things before others, on having more information than the other party. It would be ironic if he was beat at his own game because he got overconfident.

starlord
2008-12-09, 04:35 PM
So does Hamster get the pliers AND the flying carpet too? Can't wait to see that!

Charlie creeps me out. How long has he had that contract prepared for?

Ansom has been balking on a standard contract agreement. My bet is Charlie had an amended version prepped once he ran the numbers by Parson. I.e., he was betting on Ansom doing something stupid and now is prepared to laugh his way to the bank.

SteveMB
2008-12-09, 04:42 PM
Why do they have to stay and re-stack? Why did they un-stack in the first place?

My read is that they were re-configuring the stacking to separate Wanda and her mount (going after the Arkenpliers) and the other units (going after Ansom).


I have to agree with the earlier poster that turn-based mechanics get quite confusing and messy if alliances and mercenary agreements can be made and take effect during a single turn.

True; my guess is that since Charlescomm has taken its turn, they can't also take Jetstone's turn during the same day -- shifting alliances can change when your turn comes during the day (e.g. Jillian's excursion force) but can't give two turns in the same day (that would just be too powerful).

However, the Archons would be able to help defend Ansom, and could perhaps reunite him with his carpet (they're both in the same hex) if he gives Charlie a reason to do so by signing the deal.

fendrin
2008-12-09, 04:43 PM
Magic Staff? It wouldn't have to hold out for long.Magic staff vs. Artifact 'pliers... I suppose it's possible, but the 'what have you done to it?' makes me feel like there is more at work than a simple weapon bind at work. Besides, Wanda using magic to 'trap' a weapon fits her better than her being a skilled martial artist (weapon binds are tricky, speaking from experience)...


Why do they have to stay and re-stack? Why did they un-stack in the first place?

They are unstacking because Wanda is moving from airspace zone to the courtyard zone to claim the pliers, but wants to have the rest of her stack to stay in the airspace/go to the walls so that they can capture Ansom.

I'm presuming that charlie cannot send his archons into the courtyard because it's not his turn... which makes letting the pliers fall (rather than grabbing them right then) a smart move on Wanda's part.

ocdscale
2008-12-09, 04:45 PM
Contract terms include Charlie getting Parson, Parson's artifact, and the pliers. Charlie will wreak havok on the uncroaked and target Parson for capture.
Wanda will get the pliers. They will be croakamancy attuned. She will get command over something nasty, but is fighting a losing battle against the Archons. Seige comes in soon too.
Stanley comes home, Dwagons and Foolamancer make all the difference.

That's where I see this going, excited to see exactly how it'll play out.

Fafnir13
2008-12-09, 04:48 PM
True; my guess is that since Charlescomm has taken its turn, they can't also take Jetstone's turn during the same day -- shifting alliances can change when your turn comes during the day (e.g. Jillian's excursion force) but can't give two turns in the same day (that would just be too powerful).


Ever played a game with a "withhold action" function? That's what it seems the Archons have done, being fully able to attack but choosing to withhold that action for later. Allying with Jetstone would probably also enable them to use move, if they have any left.

What I'm thinking at this moment is that Wanda is going to attune to the pliers and give a majorly scary buff to all the undead nearby. All that talk with the bats seems to be a setup for this.

As for Ansome, it seems that he'll be left with no choice but to accept or perish. It might be wiser for him to take the perish option, but I doubt he will.

Lamech
2008-12-09, 04:49 PM
Oh... dear... Wanda is going for the Pliers... what will happen if she attunes? Or if she is already? That would explain the Arkenpliers not working. (Which I think is the case from the grunting on Ansom's part.)

Anyway, I wonder if that contract is something like...
In return for payment in the form of...
1) Jetstone's chief warlord
2) The arkenpliers
3) "x" shmuckers
Charlescomm will render the following services
1) Capturing GK. Please note that the capture of GK does not involve turning over GK, or any units or items therein.

Felkethar
2008-12-09, 04:51 PM
So the tactical situation...

If Ansom touches the 'I accept' button, Parson automatically looses control of his airspace just due to the presance of CharlesComm forces, but will then surely loose the walls as well as at least a few archons will blast Webinar and Dora out of the sky and cover Ansom's statuesque keister, thus allowing the hole that he was trying to make in the first place. The rest of the Archons will have direct access to engage Parson's garrison. And all of this can happen NOW (otherwise why call for help from Charlie if he can't help this turn), negating a save at the last moment by Stanely. Even if Wanda does get the pliers, and they do attune to her, the inhabitants will be very hard pressed to hold Gobwin Knob.

Ok now for my wild and baseless predictions for the coming battle:

1. Wanda aquires the pliers ( I am not decided about attunement)
2. Bogroll sacrafices himself to save Parson in the coming melee
3. Our friend the dirtomancer makes a final and brave stand in the tunnels taking many of the enemy with him, and eventually collapsing Gobwin Knob.
4. Parson and Wanda manage to flee the city and meet up with Stanely.
5. Translvito forces are either in route to Gobwin Knob or returning home.
6. Stanely and the survivors from Gobwin Knob leave for parts unknown, and not FAQ as it has been discovered. End Chapter.

starlord
2008-12-09, 04:52 PM
Contract terms include Charlie getting Parson, Parson's artifact, and the pliers.

Definitely ... that fits in with Charlie knowing how powerful Parson really is and Ansom looking down on the Hampster.

Good call!

Wrecan
2008-12-09, 04:56 PM
- What have you done to it?
I think Ansom may be referring to his carpet. I think the "when to pull a thread" poem may in fact have been pulling the carpet's threads, cuasing it to malfunction. He couldn't control it, which affected his ability to wield the Arkenpliers and allowed Zombinar to disarm and unseat Ansom.

starlord
2008-12-09, 04:58 PM
Ever played a game with a "withhold action" function? That's what it seems the Archons have done, being fully able to attack but choosing to withhold that action for later. Allying with Jetstone would probably also enable them to use move, if they have any left.


Yes, I think that is a given and it bears out with how I think Charlie worded it (lag is too great right now to check. :smallcool: )

The question is however does Charlie have to wait until after the Jetstone turn to act or can he go ahead and act now during the Jetstone turn?

If he can engage right away, he has a huge advantage. If he has to wait until Jetstone does an end turn, then it either restricts what Ansom can do or it allows Parson/Wanda to do additional damage.

You have to admit that Wanda did some awesome damage whilst it was the Jetstone turn!

Limos
2008-12-09, 05:02 PM
Okay, i've got a question.

In page 119 the uncroaked Archon is in formation behind Wanda and her assorted Uncroaked. In page 120 the archon is nowhere to be seen.


So, Where did Wanda send the Archon?


Who wants to bet it's going to engage the currently living archons at some point? Also I think Wanda is going to Snag the Arkenpliers and get something big and terrifying with which to fight the archons.

As it stands now Charlie brought enough Archons to take GK, they need a major advantage to even the scales again. Since the Archons are Charlie's Arkendish Bonus, whatever the attuned Arkenpliers bonus is should be enough to even the odds.

Godskook
2008-12-09, 05:04 PM
So when does Charlie get his turn?

I.e., originally it was before Ansom's turn. He passed on it.

Does that mean he gets to go with Ansom once he becomes an ally?

Or does he have to wait until after Ansom does an end turn?

Mechanically, the turn based stuff seems off. Or is it just which side has initiative? I.e., Ansom has to attack before Wanda can engage him in his turn?

Charlie's Archons are already in the city hex. Turn issues aren't.

teratorn
2008-12-09, 05:07 PM
The archons can not move from the hex, but they are free to function inside the hex. They need to be careful with one thing though. They can not get in contact with unlead RCC stacks, for they'll attack. Not a big problem, since RCC has no fliers.

On the other hand, if Charlie joins RCC then on the next day they'll change to RCC's turn, that is, after Parson's. This will allow for Stanley to arrive and change the odds again.

starlord
2008-12-09, 05:08 PM
I wonder how binding the contract really is?

It sure looks like a click-through EULA licensing agreement.

I can see Ansom, "Your honor, I was dazed by the fall. I accepted the original terms that Charlescomm presented and as all I had to do was click, I didn't read the fine print."

Or, "That isn't my signature your honor, anyone could have clicked on the 'I Accept' button!"

Humor aside, I'm guessing that "Terms of Alliance" are more binding than oral agreements, such as Charlie made to not attack Parson.

Godskook
2008-12-09, 05:09 PM
I have pulled the contract as best I could. What follows is the 'unaltered' version, that is merely the letters I think I see.


Ansom
etstone
a bind
ol for(el for)
tool(tual)
tion with
for the
agreement in
for a term not less th-- two
more than twelve tur
mence upon indicat
tance of the followin

Compensation shal
Charlescomm by Jet


This version adds some knee-jerk theorizing. Have fun:


Ansom
etstone
a bind
ol for(el for)
tool(tual)
tion with
for the
agreement in
for a term not less than two nor
more than twelve turns to com-
mence upon indication of accep-
tance of the following by Ansom

Compensation shal
Charlescomm by Jet

chpicker
2008-12-09, 05:10 PM
Here's my take. Assuming this is a new alliance with Jetstone, here's what I'm unsure of:

1. Does Charlie have to wait until tomorrow to act since his turn has ended already? Or did he hold action?

2. If he DOES have to wait, now that he's allied with Jetstone again, does that mean that he now also has to wait until Jetstone's turn? If so, that means that GK will get another turn before Charlie can actually do anything.

The updates are never fast enough!

Whispri
2008-12-09, 05:18 PM
Magic staff vs. Artifact 'pliers... I suppose it's possible, but the 'what have you done to it?' makes me feel like there is more at work than a simple weapon bind at work. Besides, Wanda using magic to 'trap' a weapon fits her better than her being a skilled martial artist (weapon binds are tricky, speaking from experience)...
She used no magic words so she didn't cast a spell. And her staff wasn't glowing. He's pretty arrogant and he was losing, does there really need to be more to it? There was an effect glare in panel one, but that does look a similar colour to the light the Arkenpliers have produced in the past.


He spent part of his last turn (after the ambush) headed back to GK, which makes it possible that he could get back next turn. I don't see any way he could already be back (even leaving out the time/distance issues, can you really imagine him just sitting there under veil and not getting involved?)
He had thirty Dwagons, only twenty four of which were the shorter ranged 'B' Dwagons. If the Dwagon with the lowest move had only, say eight move left when he fled the City, a range limt of 42, and he only had to move a short distance, call it five hexes, to hit the ambush, then some of the 'A' Dwagons could have made it back from there. The higher those numbers are the harder it gets of course, but it's far from impossible. Remember the size of his personal mount, I'm thinking high level when I look at that.

And yeah, I can see him waiting, the sight of the Archons and the Uncroaked on the Walls would have given anyone pause.

headhoncho
2008-12-09, 05:22 PM
I'm presuming that charlie cannot send his archons into the courtyard because it's not his turn... which makes letting the pliers fall (rather than grabbing them right then) a smart move on Wanda's part.

That is a GREAT point. Once she lands and grabs the pliers, I imagine she can duck right back into the garrison zone, since it requires no move to move between zones in a city hex.


What I'm thinking at this moment is that Wanda is going to attune to the pliers and give a majorly scary buff to all the undead nearby. All that talk with the bats seems to be a setup for this.

I agree, that would be brilliant foreshadowing and setup exposition.

starlord
2008-12-09, 05:25 PM
Here's my take. Assuming this is a new alliance with Jetstone, here's what I'm unsure of:

1. Does Charlie have to wait until tomorrow to act since his turn has ended already? Or did he hold action?

2. If he DOES have to wait, now that he's allied with Jetstone again, does that mean that he now also has to wait until Jetstone's turn? If so, that means that GK will get another turn before Charlie can actually do anything.

The updates are never fast enough!

On page 119, Parson states that Charlie's Archons can attack any forces he puts up. So, ignoring what we know about turns, Parson believes they are in danger.

Oh, sweet on page 105, CharlesNChrg states: "I won't leave your airspace. But I'll end turn and wait for a winner."

That presumes that he did declare his turn was over, but since Stanley had to wait for Charlie to end turn before he could start turn, I think that Charlie didn't delay but end...

Also, it is on 105 that Parson does the calculations of odds of 3 to 2. And it is in 106 that he gets the Ruthlessness from a full sword and the box of Luckamancy Charms. Both of which should change the odds. I think Charlie is in for a world of hurt.

slayerx
2008-12-09, 05:26 PM
So when does Charlie get his turn?

I.e., originally it was before Ansom's turn. He passed on it.

Does that mean he gets to go with Ansom once he becomes an ally?

Or does he have to wait until after Ansom does an end turn?

Mechanically, the turn based stuff seems off. Or is it just which side has initiative? I.e., Ansom has to attack before Wanda can engage him in his turn?

Charlie's turn will be on Ansom's turn...
However, during this turn, WHEN charlie's turn is now is moot

Charlie's archons are ALREADY in gobwinknob airspace... as such they can launch and move at anytime they wish within the airspace. i read them being in the airspace like them being in the same hex as parson. This is why parson was so worried about Charlie becuase he felt that charlie could attack at anytime, namely any air forces he launches

SteveMB
2008-12-09, 05:28 PM
He had thirty Dwagons, only twenty four of which were the shorter ranged 'B' Dwagons. If the Dwagon with the lowest move had only, say eight move left when he fled the City, a range limt of 42, and he only had to move a short distance, call it five hexes, to hit the ambush, then some of the 'A' Dwagons could have made it back from there. The higher those numbers are the harder it gets of course, but it's far from impossible. Remember the size of his personal mount, I'm thinking high level when I look at that.

Also remember that Jillian took two turns (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html) (using the alliance-shift exploit to get two of their turns in between two of Stanley's turns) to reach the choke point with a force of 26+ Move flying units (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html).

randomnondescri
2008-12-09, 05:28 PM
I wonder how binding the contract really is?

It sure looks like a click-through EULA licensing agreement.


<law student>
Well, no, this is more like a service contract, i.e. I do this for you in exchange for this kind of payment. A license agreement, on the other hand, typically grants the use of intellectual property subject to certain conditions.
</law student>

And I'm reasonably confident that Charlie knows how to write a legally binding contract... whether its magically binding or not might be something to consider. And the fun part would come if he agrees to give away the pliers, which aren't in his possession any more to be able to give away, and what happens if he can't pay up to Charlie. :smallbiggrin:

Fion MacCumhail
2008-12-09, 05:31 PM
So does Hamster get the pliers AND the flying carpet too? Can't wait to see that!

me neither. the carpet might also be good for 1 or 2 jokes (it's been rolled up ever since ansom's night with jillian, right?:smallbiggrin:)


True; my guess is that since Charlescomm has taken its turn, they can't also take Jetstone's turn during the same day -- shifting alliances can change when your turn comes during the day (e.g. Jillian's excursion force) but can't give two turns in the same day (that would just be too powerful).


wasn't that the exact purpose of charlie being released from merc service and then being hired by transilvito (well, theoretically)?

lamguin
2008-12-09, 05:33 PM
Charlie's giving me a Ben from Lost vibe right now.
I.e. No matter how bad things may look for him at any given point, HE GETS WHAT HE WANTS. Always.

What would you like to bet that the Arkenpliers will a) attune to Wanda, and b) drastically improve the power of the uncroaked under her control?

Pclips, Jami, if you guys happen to read this, love, love, LOVE the new update. Well done. Can't wait for the book.

starlord
2008-12-09, 05:38 PM
And I'm reasonably confident that Charlie knows how to write a legally binding contract... whether its magically binding or not might be something to consider. And the fun part would come if he agrees to give away the pliers, which aren't in his possession any more to be able to give away, and what happens if he can't pay up to Charlie. :smallbiggrin:

Agreed, classic fairy tale dilemma and likely to happen.

Whispri
2008-12-09, 05:47 PM
Also remember that Jillian took two turns (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html) (using the alliance-shift exploit to get two of their turns in between two of Stanley's turns) to reach the choke point with a force of 26+ Move flying units (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html).
Then given that she had to use up move to enter the City, if they took the same route she did, it's even possible that some of the top 'B' Dwagons could make it back in one turn. It all depends on how far they were from the ambush.

DevilDan
2008-12-09, 05:50 PM
I think Wanda will retrieve the pliers before Stanley engages and be able to retreat to safety. She's the speculated predictamancer, so she's probably seen this moment for years.

Seeing as she is skilled at multiple magical disciplines, she could be Faq's missing predictamancer. But if she foresaw this specific incident, why was she preparing to leave to go bail out Stanley?

"Unstack" would be "leave my stack" and "restacks" would be "form your own stack." I'd hazard to guess.


The archons can not move from the hex, but they are free to function inside the hex. They need to be careful with one thing though. They can not get in contact with unlead RCC stacks, for they'll attack. Not a big problem, since RCC has no fliers.

If they can switch sides, it won't be a problem. Note, though, that archons may be casters or may otherwise have leadership. In addition, we don't know what control the arkendish gives to Charlie; speculating ex nihilo, Charlie could function as a long-distance leader.

Charlie was quite prepared to extract serious concessions from Ansom when things got dicey: "Don't laugh, champ. It might be true."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0117.html

Monan
2008-12-09, 05:53 PM
Ever played a game with a "withhold action" function? That's what it seems the Archons have done, being fully able to attack but choosing to withhold that action for later. Allying with Jetstone would probably also enable them to use move, if they have any left.

What I'm thinking at this moment is that Wanda is going to attune to the pliers and give a majorly scary buff to all the undead nearby. All that talk with the bats seems to be a setup for this.

As for Ansome, it seems that he'll be left with no choice but to accept or perish. It might be wiser for him to take the perish option, but I doubt he will.

Rob and Jamie have been pretty distinct about when an organization has a turn they take it then end their turn. So I don't think they can use the "wait" function. Unless they are in an area with an enemy and one of them is a warlord and chooses to attack or not. That would be the only loophole for the Archons to attack given what we know of the mechanics of Erfworld.

starlord
2008-12-09, 05:53 PM
Seeing as she is skilled at multiple magical disciplines, she could be Faq's missing predictamancer. But if she foresaw this specific incident, why was she preparing to leave to go bail out Stanley?


No, I think if she had any real predictamancy, the whole Jillian thing wouldn't have either occurred or hit her so hard.

teratorn
2008-12-09, 06:02 PM
If they can switch sides, it won't be a problem. Note, though, that archons may be casters or may otherwise have leadership. In addition, we don't know what control the arkendish gives to Charlie; speculating ex nihilo, Charlie could function as a long-distance leader.

Yes, they can avoid engagements, but RCC's stacks without warlords would still be forced to attack them -- only on the next do the archons merge into RCC's turn. I'm thinking about siege archers and such.

Altough the archons are probably not enough to win the fight (we don't know how many times they can "fire"), they probably can remove most of the uncroaked force from the wall. RCC will breach the outer wall.

I'm curious to see what the pliers can do.

MirEgal
2008-12-09, 06:09 PM
I think Charlie is able to attack in this turn. His archons are in the same hex, and as we have seen, it is possible to move between different zones of Gobwin Knob outside of the own turn.

However, I think he will only ensure and secure the breach of the wall and the life of Ansom. It's the best option for Charlie. He is helping the RCC, but he is not risking his own archons. He will threat Parson, so the outer walls may be broken, and then he will wait.

Parson will maybe recall all uncroaked troops into the area within the inner walls. Ansom will end turn to reorganize his troops and to prepare the final attack. Next turn Stanley arrives, and together with Parson, Wanda and her Arkenpliers they will win the final battle.

Balance
2008-12-09, 06:15 PM
The Arkenpliers seem to be free falling off the wall down to the jetstone troops below. Wanda doesn't have thm.

Has anyone else tried to read the agreement?

I believe I can pick out and/or infer a bit more:


Terms of Alliance

...Ansom
...Jetstone
...a bind-(ing)
...(ally)
...(?ac-/even-?)tual
...(coali)tion with
...for the
...(agr)eement
for a term not less th(an)
more than twelve tu(rns)[, to com-]
-mence upon indicat(ing) [accep-]
-tance of the followin(g) [terms]

Compensation shall [be rendered/paid to]
Charlescomm by Je(tstone)....


() indicates inferred completion of words, [] indicates speculation about missing words, and / separates alternate possible completions.

It looks like Charlie sets a minimum and maximum number of turns for his contracts, which only makes sense. It looks like contract boilerplate, though. The real meat of it--the changes--don't appear to be visible in the section shown.

Chocowatte
2008-12-09, 06:16 PM
- What have you done to it?

Looks like Wanda already has some power over the pliers before she even has it in hand, which gives credence to the whole, pliers were made for wanda theory. Which I believe too.

I think Wanda will retrieve the pliers before Stanley engages and be able to retreat to safety. She's the speculated predictamancer, so she's probably seen this moment for years. The battle is about to turn very nasty though, with charlie in place, I expect all Parson can do is a holding action until Stanley arrives.

Hmm... if the pliers in the incorrect hands can turn uncroaked to dust with a single hit...

Whatever Insane "Uncroaking/Uncroaked energizing" power Wanda may unlock... *shiver*

May make her previous Airspace-death-fire blast look like a cantrip in comparison.

~Chocowatte

Warren
2008-12-09, 06:21 PM
Regarding the whole "when can Charlie act?" question:

If you'll recall the whole "detached air force" gambit, the plan was to terminate Charlie's contract with Jetstone, so that he could ally with Doombat's folk - and act on their term. It looks like allied units share a turn (which would make sense), and presumably in this case it's Jetstone's turn. The only question would be whether Charlie can act within this Jetstone turn (the one in which Ansom attacked, so it's obviously Jetstone's turn right now), or has to wait until the next one.

Regarding the balance of forces:

Hamster told Charlie how many Archons he'd need to capture the Knob ... a turn ago or so. That's before Wanda made a huge number of low-quality ground units. It's hard for me to tell - it might be before Wanda made a small number of high-quality air units, or before Hamster understood her high-quality air units. It's before Hamster's sword was made complete, with its leadership bonus (and ruthlessness). Wanda's almost certain to get the Arkenpliers within this Jetstone turn, although it's anyone's guess what they will mean to the balance of forces.

All of the forces Hamster's gained since giving the calculation to Charlie are available to Hamster within this turn - and that's even if Charlie is allowed to join the Jetstone turn instantly upon agreeing to the alliance, and doesn't have to wait a turn. As several people have mentioned, it's quite possible that Stanley, who fled (possibly back towards the Knob) for at least part of his previous turn, can get his own personal bonus and a few Dwagons and Knights back to the Knob on his next turn.

Now, Charlie brought a lot of Archons, many more than were required to capture the Knob when it was more weakly defended. And the calculation was for how many Archons Charlie would need to take the Knob in one turn - not for how many he'd need to help the Alliance to take the Knob, or for how many he'd need to take it over the period of several turns. It still looks like the Knob is in deep boop - but I think how deep is quite uncertain.

dragontape
2008-12-09, 06:32 PM
I dunno if anyone remembered this bit or not but I remember somewhere that Wanda set off some air defenses already in place...

So I think there's still a couple things GK can do as far as Air Defense goes.

Cause I remember she said she set off some air defenses and thats what brought the current air troops she has right now under her control.

...just thought id mention that bit

DevilDan
2008-12-09, 06:33 PM
No, I think if she had any real predictamancy, the whole Jillian thing wouldn't have either occurred or hit her so hard.

Are you predicting what predictmancy is? We know next to nothing about it. It seems possible to mea that a general prophecy such as "Faq will fall" or a vision of its fall would not necessarily include a detailed account of how it would happen or all the turns prior to the occurrence, for example.


Yes, they can avoid engagements, but RCC's stacks without warlords would still be forced to attack them -- only on the next do the archons merge into RCC's turn. I'm thinking about siege archers and such.

Depends on whether Charlie can switch sides, then. Even if switching sides does not renew the number of moves, of course, Charlie doesn't need moves and he didn't use any that day anyway.


Hamster told Charlie how many Archons he'd need to capture the Knob ... a turn ago or so. That's before Wanda made a huge number of low-quality ground units. It's hard for me to tell - it might be before Wanda made a small number of high-quality air units, or before Hamster understood her high-quality air units. It's before Hamster's sword was made complete, with its leadership bonus (and ruthlessness). Wanda's almost certain to get the Arkenpliers within this Jetstone turn, although it's anyone's guess what they will mean to the balance of forces.

That all seems more-or-less correct to me.

This, however, strikes me as unfounded even if it is possible and even likely:

Now, Charlie brought a lot of Archons, many more than were required to capture the Knob when it was more weakly defended.

I also don't think that there was a stipulation of "one turn" even if that would seem to me as a given.

Oslecamo
2008-12-09, 06:40 PM
Well, very interisting comic, both rules and fluff wise.

What we learned:
1-Units can be disarmed/dismounted.
2-Warlord weakest zombies are stronger than normal infantry weakest zombies.
3-Zerg tactics work on super combat units.
4-You can shift alliances during combat.
5-You cannot instantly read a contract during combat.


On the contract:

I think Charlie made a super complicated contract in purpose.

Ansom is now with his back against the wall. The uncroacked are circling him, and he has no plier to take them down easily this time.

So he acepts the contract whitout reading it all.

And then Charlie reveals some clause that basically means Ansom will wish he was croacked. His treasury will probably be drained to the lat schmuck, and the titants know what other horrors.

Indeed, if someone is gonna win this battle, it's Charlie.:smalltongue:

Well, but we also have to see what happens when Wanda catches the pliers. Perhaps then not even the archons will be a match for her uncroacked
legions.

Hmm, uncroacked dwagons...drools...

mroozee
2008-12-09, 06:40 PM
That's the impression I got; the stairs look more like a built-in accessway for friendly troops than like any of the siege units we've seen.

From the previous strip, you can tell the difference between the inside of the wall and the outside by observing the semi-circle of undead around Ansom.

Prowl
2008-12-09, 06:41 PM
The dreaded End User License Alliance!

Warren
2008-12-09, 06:51 PM
I also don't think that there was a stipulation of "one turn" even if that would seem to me as a given.I'll admit, this was something I made up - but I did have a line of reasoning. As I see it, Charles was considering coming in to seize the Knob himself in order to get the bracer and possibly its wearer. This only made sense for Charlie to do if he could pull it off before the Alliance seized the Knob and thereby foreclosed on Charlie's opportunity. Hence my assumption that the calculation Hamster gave Charlie must be of the number of Archons that Charlie would need to seize the Knob before the Alliance could seize it, which I arbitrarily decided was one turn. YMMV.

Update While the forums were down I looked over the previous strips, and the calculations were indeed first whether 14 Archons would suffice to take the Knob before Stanley's next turn, and then how many Archons would be needed. So there was indeed a one-turn requirement, albeit not for quite the reasons I remembered/imagined. So Charlie plus the alliance and without the hurry is in a considerably stronger position than Charlie alone and in a hurry.

DevilDan
2008-12-09, 07:05 PM
3-Zerg tactics work on super combat units.


Does that one encounter really qualify as Zerg tactics?

Wanda had enough self-control to follow Parson's orders to capture rather than croak. Then again, Wanda is a devotee of torture...

Prowl
2008-12-09, 07:21 PM
I dunno if anyone remembered this bit or not but I remember somewhere that Wanda set off some air defenses already in place...

So I think there's still a couple things GK can do as far as Air Defense goes.

Cause I remember she said she set off some air defenses and thats what brought the current air troops she has right now under her control.

...just thought id mention that bit

She said she set off 'most' of the air defenses, which means that there are some left, probably not a whole lot, but more than nothing.

SpacemanSpif
2008-12-09, 11:59 PM
2-Warlord weakest zombies are stronger than normal infantry weakest zombies.


While I think this is correct, this comic isn't proof of it, as uncroaked units get a huge boost for being in Wanda's stack.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html

kreszantas
2008-12-10, 12:05 AM
From what I gather the pliers were attracted to Wanda's staff (via a magnet or fate magic that she used before engaging) this a key element that I see is that the pliers are shown getting drawn towards the head of Wanda's staff. Her order to Webinar caused the rest of the action to unfold.

Cybaster
2008-12-10, 12:08 AM
It's as Prince Thrakhath says in the bad ending of Wing Commander 3 if you have Blair beg for his life: "So even the Heart of the Tiger proves unworthy in the end."

Although if Ansom does give in to Charlie's demands to save his own skin, the Alliance he has might become so demoralized by Ansom's cowardice that they surrender wholesale to Gobwin Knob; Some of the allies in Ansom's camp were already discussing desertion the previous turn, namely the Sofa-king, so that act might be the final nail in the Alliance's coffin to cause a mass defection (it's wishful thinking at best, but it's always possible --- history, though, has proven that such a mass defection is definitely possible given the right nudge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sekigahara)). In turn, this might just give Parson the firepower he needs to fight Charlie off --- although the lack of fliers in the Alliance probably won't have any effect on the Archons.

Chewy
2008-12-10, 12:12 AM
Regarding the whole "when can Charlie act?" question:

If you'll recall the whole "detached air force" gambit, the plan was to terminate Charlie's contract with Jetstone, so that he could ally with Doombat's folk - and act on their term. It looks like allied units share a turn (which would make sense), and presumably in this case it's Jetstone's turn. The only question would be whether Charlie can act within this Jetstone turn (the one in which Ansom attacked, so it's obviously Jetstone's turn right now), or has to wait until the next one.

[

See this has to be no because otherwise its unbelievable abuseable game mechianic. I can just ally my friend he moves with me then cancel the alliance end turn the have him ally me and move again. Utterly broken mechanics in a TBS world. If you want to argue they don't have to move and can just engage thats implausible for a couple reasons. First they can't be on the same hex. In terms of basic TBS rules no two opposing factions can be on the same hex or they fight. In terms of comic rules this applies as well as two units in the same hex auto engages. Since no battle was initiated they are not on the same hex. They could be flying in an airspace hex, or adjacent airspace hex, but I doubt their in the city. So since the end turn rule of the comic and TBS is they have NO move points at end of turn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html and shouldn't be on the same hex they can't actually help Ansom NOW. If they do thats just breaking all kinds of TBS rules.


.
3-Zerg tactics work on super combat units.


actually you should have learned that when the bats swarmed the dragons during the fight with stanley. Zerg tactics work in any situation in real life military or game anyways so this shouldn't really need to be proven.

kynalvarus
2008-12-10, 12:20 AM
Webinar didn't solo Ansom - the unipegataur got in a shot too, probably a more powerful one. Also, we may be underestimating the unipegataurs. All those air defenses went off, and only killed four units? Then they were probably all quite powerful units. Wanda spent a good deal of time animating them. They shouldn't be casually discounted.

We have no idea what archons cost, or how many Charlie has. It's possible that most or all of his forces are at GK right now. He may be able to take GK alone, but at what cost? He may not want to commit. I think he's bluffing Parson, and he's not interested in expending his Archons lightly. He really doesn't want to lose them in a way that leads to their being uncroaked and used against him.

The powers of the Arkentools are connected to their functions and symbolism. Hammers can crush, but they are also symbols of law (gavels.) Taming dwagons isn't too much of a stretch. The Arkendish is a communications tool. Pliers are used to grab, twist, and bend. Their symbolism is all control and manipulation. It's a good fit for Croakamancy.

I think that the 'pliers, in Wanda's hands, are going to lead to major upgrades to all the existing uncroaked in GK, and even more improvement for any new ones created using them.

JazzManJim
2008-12-10, 12:25 AM
We have no idea what archons cost, or how many Charlie has. It's possible that most or all of his forces are at GK right now. He may be able to take GK alone, but at what cost? He may not want to commit. I think he's bluffing Parson, and he's not interested in expending his Archons lightly. He really doesn't want to lose them in a way that leads to their being uncroaked and used against him.


I wonder about the comms that Parson has with Jack. Could it have been enough that Jack has clouded Stanley's mind to have their stack head toward Charlie. If the bulk of Charlie's forces are at GK, then a serious force of flyers might well be enough to cause Charles enough consternation to call back a significant number of Archons.

Charlie's smart, but so is Parson. Charlie's smarts are for business. Parson's are for war. Could be that Charlie is outmatched a bit here.

kreszantas
2008-12-10, 12:27 AM
See this has to be no because otherwise its unbelievable abuseable game mechianic. I can just ally my friend he moves with me then cancel the alliance end turn the have him ally me and move again. Utterly broken mechanics in a TBS world. If you want to argue they don't have to move and can just engage thats implausible for a couple reasons. First they can't be on the same hex. In terms of basic TBS rules no two opposing factions can be on the same hex or they fight. In terms of comic rules this applies as well as two units in the same hex auto engages. Since no battle was initiated they are not on the same hex. They could be flying in an airspace hex, or adjacent airspace hex, but I doubt their in the city. So since the end turn rule of the comic and TBS is they have NO move points at end of turn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html and shouldn't be on the same hex they can't actually help Ansom NOW. If they do thats just breaking all kinds of TBS rules.



actually you should have learned that when the bats swarmed the dragons during the fight with stanley. Zerg tactics work in any situation in real life military or game anyways so this shouldn't really need to be proven.

This is exactly why Charlie told Parson dont break anything of mine (meaning dont attack me and I wont attack you). Even with the PENDING CHANGE, I see Charlie NOT following Ansom's orders (Sofa King as example) and doing just what he wants within the confines of the new agreement meaning a) pliers, b) Parson & artificat intact.

This also brings up another HUGE missing point that, had Parson actually jumped ship to Charlie and not removed from the hex, Parson would be on Ansom's side midshift.. how about that one for a mind bender.

Limos
2008-12-10, 12:36 AM
See this has to be no because otherwise its unbelievable abuseable game mechianic. I can just ally my friend he moves with me then cancel the alliance end turn the have him ally me and move again. Utterly broken mechanics in a TBS world. If you want to argue they don't have to move and can just engage thats implausible for a couple reasons. First they can't be on the same hex. In terms of basic TBS rules no two opposing factions can be on the same hex or they fight. In terms of comic rules this applies as well as two units in the same hex auto engages. Since no battle was initiated they are not on the same hex. They could be flying in an airspace hex, or adjacent airspace hex, but I doubt their in the city. So since the end turn rule of the comic and TBS is they have NO move points at end of turn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0051.html and shouldn't be on the same hex they can't actually help Ansom NOW. If they do thats just breaking all kinds of TBS rules.



actually you should have learned that when the bats swarmed the dragons during the fight with stanley. Zerg tactics work in any situation in real life military or game anyways so this shouldn't really need to be proven.

We already know that health and movement stats reset at dawn, so we even if you can join and leave alliances at will that won't give you back you're health or move.

VariaVespasa
2008-12-10, 12:39 AM
Close but not quite- if theyre in the same hex they have to fight UNLESS they have warlords with their stacks and chose not to. RCC has warlords in hex obviously, and it seems likely that the acrhons themselves qualify as warlords in some fashion. Certainly they have warlords or the equivalent with them or they couldnt have left Parsons fliers alone. QED.

The archons cannot move this turn, even if they ally with Jetstone, but they could chose to forgo thier non-engagement choice and immediately engage everything in Parsons airspace, ie- the undead flier stack, which would let Ansom get up, grab his carpet and escape or follow Wanda. But its not their turn, and iirc only the defender can move freely between the various city zones, so they cannot engage the tower/garrison/walls this turn. And, judging by whats going on now, Wanda is or will be on the ground picking up the pliers and thus not an elligible target by the time the archons can act, and she can just scuttle back inside when she sees the archons have become aggro.

Ansom is free to pursue her himself I guess, but alone and injured and unarmed I wouldnt give anything for his chances if he does. So fleeing is his best personal option.

This lets Charlie take Ansom to the cleaners with the new contract, including getting Parson and his artifact in the event of an RCC victory. It lets Ansom remain an active figure in the ongoing story, although not a happy one given that he's lost his pliers and failed to breach the walls this turn. It gets Parson the pliers, along with a possibly atuned Wanda, plus the return of Stanley to confound Charlies plans and remain in the game himself. Everybody wins, more or less. :)

Angband
2008-12-10, 01:08 AM
In some TBS games when you accomplish some things, you get a one-time bonus to any units that you currently possess. The most recent one that comes to mind is Civilization: Revolutions... when you, for instance, complete building the "Leonardo's Workshop" Wonder, all your units are upgraded to the most modern version that you have researched to date.

I wonder if Attunement to the Arkenpliers might provide a similar one time bonus... just to throw out an example, "When a unit Attunes to the Arkenpliers, all currently-active undead that were created by the Attuned unit, become upgraded to maximum duration and power." Of course, the game designers who originally came up with the idea might not have anticipated a caster having control of a thousand popcorn undead at the time...

Similar to a lot of TBS games, what would normally be an appropriately powerful bonus can be turned into a game-breaking 'sploit under the right conditions...

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 01:29 AM
Firstly, we don't know that the archons, who apparently didn't use any moves during that day, cannot expend moves once they switch sides.

Secondly, the author can get away with any number of plot shenanigans and simply claim that things work differently within a city hex. We've already seen exceptions of this sort cited.

Finally, I don't believe that Parson particularly cares about the pliers except in how they may affect the safety of GK. Yes, he knows that Stanley wants to get his grubby little hands on the arkenpliers, but he also knows that GK itself is a priority; he may also know exactly what happened to Stanley thanks to Maggie.

K2
2008-12-10, 01:58 AM
using wenibar as a weapon was a wonderful idea, bet they all get his warlord bonus as well. I hope Charlie does not ruin every thing, either way Ansom as a force for himself is gone. He will either be Charlies slave or Wanda servant.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 02:04 AM
using wenibar as a weapon was a wonderful idea, bet they all get his warlord bonus as well. I hope Charlie does not ruin every thing, either way Ansom as a force for himself is gone. He will either be Charlies slave or Wanda servant.
And let's not forget that warlord bonuses stack, hence the use of three warlords for the dwagon donut "group A" force.

K2
2008-12-10, 02:24 AM
And let's not forget that warlord bonuses stack, hence the use of three warlords for the dwagon donut "group A" force.

But do they stack with caster bonuses?
Also, does merely garbing an item grant an individual its onuses? If so, there are plenty of unde--excuss me, uncroaked infantry around where the pliers landed.

Sweetie Welf
2008-12-10, 02:56 AM
Parson is (probably) boobed.
Following assumption: the top of the wall is part of airspace.
If so, the archons can attack the uncroaked. As flying units against infantry they should have no big problems. They even don't have to spend their non-existing move for this. And if the wall is clear, the RCC troops can do the rest.
Parson can only survive if he can stop the enemy troops and delay the end for one turn. Then he can again make Wanda mass-uncroak enemy troops and hope that Stanley returns.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 02:57 AM
But do they stack with caster bonuses?
Also, does merely garbing an item grant an individual its onuses? If so, there are plenty of unde--excuss me, uncroaked infantry around where the pliers landed.

Leadership bonuses and caster bonuses (dirtamancer-golem or croakamancer-uncroaked) could perhaps be considered as different categories and may also stack.


Following assumption: the top of the wall is part of airspace.
If so, the archons can attack the uncroaked. As flying units against infantry they should have no big problems. They even don't have to spend their non-existing move for this. And if the wall is clear, the RCC troops can do the rest.
Parson can only survive if he can stop the enemy troops and delay the end for one turn. Then he can again make Wanda mass-uncroak enemy troops and hope that Stanley returns.

I have no reason to suspect that any area is closed to attacks by fliers except for those that are roofed over or located underground.

I do fail to see how Stanley, despite his artifact and overlord bonuses, at the head of a half-dozen or so dwagons can turn this battle around, particularly with the large number of archons over GK. Parson knows more than we do, of course, but I doubt that his strategy hinges solely on Stanley's return.

Chewy
2008-12-10, 03:30 AM
Firstly, we don't know that the archons, who apparently didn't use any moves during that day, cannot expend moves once they switch sides.

Secondly, the author can get away with any number of plot shenanigans and simply claim that things work differently within a city hex. We've already seen exceptions of this sort cited.

Firstly they did use move as they had to move to actually get there and secondly as I pointed out all units lose move once they end turn.

Yes they author can use plot armor to bulldoze through my arguments and I'm fine with that as long as its logical.

Dragonath
2008-12-10, 03:39 AM
I wonder about the comms that Parson has with Jack. Could it have been enough that Jack has clouded Stanley's mind to have their stack head toward Charlie. If the bulk of Charlie's forces are at GK, then a serious force of flyers might well be enough to cause Charles enough consternation to call back a significant number of Archons.

Charlie's smart, but so is Parson. Charlie's smarts are for business. Parson's are for war. Could be that Charlie is outmatched a bit here.

Yep, as I predicted before it would not be unlikely for Stanley to dust off to Charlie and grab his Arkendish from a possible undefended mountain fortress Charlie is residing in. 6 veiled Dwagons with Stanley, Jack and a Knight are not that bad of a stack at all, and could probably take down an equal number of Archons and Charlie.

That would have Charlie in the boop :D

lug0si
2008-12-10, 03:41 AM
Magic staff vs. Artifact 'pliers... I suppose it's possible, but the 'what have you done to it?' makes me feel like there is more at work than a simple weapon bind at work. Besides, Wanda using magic to 'trap' a weapon fits her better than her being a skilled martial artist (weapon binds are tricky, speaking from experience)...

i dont think that an artifact can be trapped by a spell, even when cast by a master, or influenced by a magic staff. holy owns magically usually.
i believe that the arkentools have a will of their own and want to be wielded by someone 'worthy' (Wanda in case of Arkenpliers) they will attune to immediately. so they led Ansom into this solo mission and failed him when confronted with Wanda (i kinda suspected (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5436900&postcount=222) this would happen).

The Old Hack
2008-12-10, 03:41 AM
Beautiful, beautiful page. So many things happening, all the pieces moving into place for a big confrontation. I truly hope Wanda gets the pliers and attunes to them; it would seem one of the few possible events that could counterbalance Charlie's return to the Alliance with such a huge force of Archons.

And Ansom is humbled at last... maybe. This could potentially be a turning point for him if he has the self-honesty to see that his egomania and religious fanaticism has ultimately made him all but a copy of Stanley. Right now, his options are bad no matter what he does; he concedes to Charlie's demands and becomes his legal captive or refuses and most likely becomes GK's military captive. But no matter which of the two occurs, it becomes a test of character for him -- he can understand at last that he is as capable of mistakes as anyone not a noble, or reject this understanding and continue on denial.

Charlie? He continues to act the legal weasel. He may appear to hold all the good cards now, but I am personally entertaining a fond hope that he will get his fingers burnt in the end. Petty of me, but that's how I am. :smallamused:

Oslecamo
2008-12-10, 03:43 AM
Does that one encounter really qualify as Zerg tactics?

Wanda had enough self-control to follow Parson's orders to capture rather than croak. Then again, Wanda is a devotee of torture...

Zerg tactics isn't just mindlessly attacking with superior numbers.

It's carefully but quickly attacking with several weak units in such a way to maximize their potential, so you end up defeating much bigger units before the enemy realizes what's going on. Much harder to do properly than it looks.

For example, sending your weak units in an indian line to die one by one against the big enemy unit is bad tactics, like when Ansom sent small stacks of elves to attack the three "stronger than normal" dwagons. If he had sent those stacks at the same time, they probably would have croacked the dwagons, but sending them in small groups one by one, the bigger dwagons easily dealt with them.

Sending one non uncroacked unit(Wanda) to atract the enemy 1-hit-kill-uncroacked attacks while your other uncroacked units surround it and pepper it with blows before it can attack again, that's zerg tactics.

Aether
2008-12-10, 03:45 AM
Something to consider here: Stanley seems to be a decent Warlord in battle at least. Furthermore, he had 3 knights to lead his dragons.

Stanley had the Arkenhammer in the battle.. and yet he still lost so many dragons! While it looks like Transylvito only lost bats... maybe a warlord or two.

So what makes us think that Wanda's zerg-undead units are suddenly going to be strong enough just because she gets and attunes to the Pliers?


Also... I think the Pliers have to do with Fate magic. Whether this means that all Arkentools have a bit of Fate in them, I don't know... but it could be the Arkenpliers themselves are Fate-oriented Arkentools. Destroying uncroaked could be merely a side-effect... possibly because uncroaked no longer have a future/destiny or something...
...In any case, I think it's still up in the air in regards to whether or not Wanda can attune to the pliers, and if they will HELP uncroaked.

And besides, Stanley (or Sizemore?) mentioned that Charlie mastered the Arkendish... I think that means that even if you can attune to an Arkentool, you still need to practice in its use.


Also; can anybody tell if there's been a change in Parson since he got that sword? We thought he'd be a lot crueler or something after he picked up the sword... but he still seems the same... is it because some of us guessed right in that "ruthlessness" does not automatically mean cruelty? Hmmm...

Oslecamo
2008-12-10, 03:48 AM
Something to consider here: Stanley seems to be a decent Warlord in battle at least. Furthermore, he had 3 knights to lead his dragons.

Stanley had the Arkenhammer in the battle.. and yet he still lost so many dragons! While it looks like Transylvito only lost bats... maybe a warlord or two.

So what makes us think that Wanda's zerg-undead units are suddenly going to be strong enough just because she gets and attunes to the Pliers?


Ansom pwns dwagons and warlords and zombie masses.

Wanda pwns Ansom. Whitout pliers. Now she has pliers. So she's even stronger, while Ansom isn't around anymore to give his fat leadership bonus to the coalition.

I think it's a perfectly valid logic.

Ruthleness doesn't mean cruelty. But it means the ability of sending your close friends to very dangerous situations.

SteveD
2008-12-10, 06:27 AM
Awesome strip. Somehow this comic always manages to make its twists surprising; did anyone predict that Charlie would make a deal with Ansom against Parson?

Presumably Charlies previous offering involved an alliance by which he would receive the spoils of Gobwin Knob; the Mathmancy artefact. The only thing that stopped him taking it directly was the possibility of getting a hold of the Arkenpliers too; presumably that is the 'amendment' the Archon was refering too. You've lost the pliers, so if we help you we get them too.

It also reveals Ansom wasn't as rash as everyone had assumed; Charlie was his backup plan. But had Ansom died, the Alliance would have disbanded and the story would be over. Now its more likely the Archons will clear the wall, and Parson will fall back.

This leads us to three crucial plot questions; Will Wanda get the Pliers back to Parson without being Croaked? Will Stanley and the Foolmancer return in time to engage the Archons? How will the plot between Faq, Wanda, Jack and Jill be resolved?

Robak
2008-12-10, 07:43 AM
i think it is most likely that Wanda will get the pliers and attune to them, but Charlies Archons (help the RCC) take the outer walls, leading to a retreat to the tower and a famous last stand next turn with Stanley, Wanda, dwagons and the power of the Arkentools.

Lamech
2008-12-10, 07:44 AM
I do fail to see how Stanley, despite his artifact and overlord bonuses, at the head of a half-dozen or so dwagons can turn this battle around, particularly with the large number of archons over GK. Parson knows more than we do, of course, but I doubt that his strategy hinges solely on Stanley's return.
I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html)panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 07:46 AM
We already know that health and movement stats reset at dawn, so we even if you can join and leave alliances at will that won't give you back you're health or move.

Units heal at the start of their turn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0052.html). That said, I think it's unlikely that shifting alliances can allow a unit to move twice in the same day (as opposed to shifting when during the next day it moves) -- that would just be too powerful.


I do fail to see how Stanley, despite his artifact and overlord bonuses, at the head of a half-dozen or so dwagons can turn this battle around, particularly with the large number of archons over GK. Parson knows more than we do, of course, but I doubt that his strategy hinges solely on Stanley's return.

Parson's strategy doesn't hinge on Stanley's return because as yet he has no way of knowing that Stanley is returning. He tried (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0121.html) to get Jack to convince Stanley to come back, but as far as he could tell he wasn't getting through.

docstrange
2008-12-10, 08:27 AM
Actually I had a bit of trouble with this one. The action is drawn so small that it's not exactly clear what is going on - what is Ansom talking about in the first panel, anyway? What have you done to WHAT? Folks are assuming it's the pliers - but I for one would have liked some sort of visual clue.

Next, the KO of Ansom from his mount, and the dropping pliers, are fantastic panels. I love the extreme perspective on Ansom's hand and also his elongated body when falling from the carpet. A good choice and wonderfully done.

But then I lose it again. I suppose having those stairs and parapets tells us the pliers fell on the Gobwin Knob side of the wall - but again, it's all drawn so small it's hard to tell. Only the blue specks in the distance tell us that Wanda is diving for the pliers.

And where is the red-glowing uncraked archon, anyway? She was right in the stack before- and there are so many wide shots that you'd think we would see her.

Great story development, I'm excited for more, but a confusing page IMO.

SteveD
2008-12-10, 08:37 AM
Some blown-up shots of this strip would be very handy. Its quite difficult to see the detail in the first panel.

dragontape
2008-12-10, 08:39 AM
One more little tidbit that I unearthed...
in page 58, there's diffrent levels of Dwagons. I thought it would just be an elemental thing but I think it means as far as attack power goes.

One other thing I noticed, i think outfits have something to do with a unit's power.

Maybe its just a minor thing but i'm sure Parson would be smart enough to figure out that every single +1 bonus counts.

In my opinion, I think Parson's bonus to units is alot stronger now because he has all the stuff that make him a perfect warlord. We still have no clue what ruthlessness does to a unit's stats or if Parson's leadership bonus is still the same.

So stack that on top of Stanley's bonus and his arkentool bonus that he gets as well and I think even 6 dwagons can take on 14 archons or more archons...

Hell...I think Parson would be effing badass if he got a flying mount and joined the Air Defense against charlie. sooo...Stanley+Parson+Wanda and possible 2 arkentools...I think charlies archons are toast...

PePe QuiCoSE
2008-12-10, 09:07 AM
I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html)panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.They don't need Stanley if Wanda attunes to the pliers. Still, good point!

Godskook
2008-12-10, 09:21 AM
I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html)panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

The only person there that mentions 'canceling' is Vinny, who is asking the question as if he doesn't understand and knows that 'canceling' is an assumption on his part. Ansom never uses that terminology, doesn't know how the arken-kin work and "...knows of no-one who can" unlock their secrets.

teratorn
2008-12-10, 09:27 AM
The only person there that mentions 'canceling' is Vinny, who is asking the question as if he doesn't understand and knows that 'canceling' is an assumption on his part. Ansom never uses that terminology, doesn't know how the arken-kin work and "...knows of no-one who can" unlock their secrets.

We can discard any adverse effects on the archons, since they were going to fight Stanley until Charlie made Transylvito an offer they could not accept.

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 09:32 AM
The only person there that mentions 'canceling' is Vinny, who is asking the question as if he doesn't understand and knows that 'canceling' is an assumption on his part. Ansom never uses that terminology, doesn't know how the arken-kin work and "...knows of no-one who can" unlock their secrets.

He may have simply meant that the artifact bonuses would cancel each other out when they finally cornered His Vermitude and fought him directly. If so, Ansom's reply would indicate that an attuned Arkentool gives a higher bonus (along with its other powers), which would seem reasonable.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 09:32 AM
We can discard any adverse effects on the archons, since they were going to fight Stanley until Charlie made Transylvito an offer they could not accept.

While I personally agree, a theoretical canceling system could sadly still exist and simply be unknown to Charlie.

Lamech
2008-12-10, 09:47 AM
While I personally agree, a theoretical canceling system could sadly still exist and simply be unknown to Charlie.
The adverse effects would have to be unknown to Vinny because he was the one envisioning archons stomping dwagons. Charlie never actually agreed to the plan...

And since I was using Vinny as my source, that kind of kills that theory. Teratorn is correct.:smallfrown:

MalikT
2008-12-10, 10:02 AM
Hi, first time post.
I have been reading erf from the beginning and I have a different opinion about the pliers. They are a tool of creation and I don't think they will be used for croakamancy, perhaps some powerful healing/resurrection spell.
Some games put resurrection under necromancy so it has some sense.

DigoDragon
2008-12-10, 10:49 AM
'Charles-n-Charge' indeed. :smallamused:
It is good to be the Charlescomm.

Shepard
2008-12-10, 11:12 AM
How deliciously ironic would it be if Ansom's deal with Charlie completely drained his kingdom's treasury and left his side squandered? He'd still have his title, for all that would mean...

It makes sense to me that the pliers would attune to Wanda, but what if the authors want to use this capture of them for another neat plot twist and cause her not to be attuned to them? In keeping with my theme of irony in this post, what if the pliers attune to Sizemore instead (especially in keeping with the healing/resurrection interpretation of their power)? He's self-described as being one of the few casters in Erfworld interested in exploring magics beyond his specialty, and it would be a very interesting twist, especially considering how Stanley treats him - at the very least Stanley would have to regard him as an equal on some level (though invariably he'd probably hate him just as he hates Charlie).

So yeah, while the pliers attuning to Wanda makes sense, and I think that's the most straight-forward eventuality, I think it'd be a great twist, especially in the face of all this speculation, if they actually attuned to Sizemore.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 11:19 AM
He's self-described as being one of the few casters in Erfworld interested in exploring magics beyond his specialty,

Where does he say that other casters stay in their specialty? Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0013.html), he only mentions that he loves to study. Including the entire dialog between him and Wanda, we are only told the study habits of those two casters. Both are interested* in studying magic outside their specialty.

*For varying interpretations of 'interested'.

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 11:35 AM
Where does he say that other casters stay in their specialty?

"He says he's one of the few people in Erfworld who studies magic outside his specialty" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0040.html)

fendrin
2008-12-10, 11:41 AM
So much has been said since I read the thread... some points:

1) Charlie's contract doesn't have to be 'legally binding'. He makes them magically binding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html).
Caveat emptor.

2) Ansom is not the King of Jetstone. He does not have total control over the Jetstone treasury, forces, etc. How much control does he have? unknown. Another thought: he would be forced by duty to sacrifice himself if the alternative would lead to Jetstone's destruction. He may not be able to accept Charlie's contract...

3) All association between the 'pliers purpose being linked to croakamancy are equivalent to the 'hammers purpose being linked to making walnuts. It is one effect, and not nearly enough to go on. Besides, the Arkentools seem to have a utility theme rather than a branch of magic. What type of magic would the 'hammer be? Instead it seems to be combat oriented, and the 'dish is communication oriented. So what about the 'pliers? Pliers, particularly needle-nose, are tools of manipulation.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 11:42 AM
Zerg tactics isn't just mindlessly attacking with superior numbers.

It's carefully but quickly attacking with several weak units in such a way to maximize their potential, so you end up defeating much bigger units before the enemy realizes what's going on. Much harder to do properly than it looks.

...

Sending one non uncroacked unit(Wanda) to atract the enemy 1-hit-kill-uncroacked attacks while your other uncroacked units surround it and pepper it with blows before it can attack again, that's zerg tactics.

The label seems to cover a variety of different tactics. As there are no Zerg manuals or coda, I'd say that any tactic using more expendable and weaker units or any using a tank to deflect fire could be counted as a Zerg tactic.


Also; can anybody tell if there's been a change in Parson since he got that sword? We thought he'd be a lot crueler or something after he picked up the sword... but he still seems the same... is it because some of us guessed right in that "ruthlessness" does not automatically mean cruelty? Hmmm...

I never assumed that "ruthlessness" implied or suggested cruelty. That would be "sadism." Ruthlessness only suggests that you do what is necessary to achieve your goal.


This leads us to three crucial plot questions; Will Wanda get the Pliers back to Parson without being Croaked?

Why should Parson want them? We can surmise that he wants no part of combat and having them would just make him more of a target. Having Parson (and his mathamancy magic item) separate from the pliers at minimum is beneficial because it makes it necessary for Charlie to split his forces and attention between two targets.


I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html)panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

I think that "cancelin'" is not an actual game mechanism, just a way for Vinnie to suggest that they shouldn't worry about the arkenhammer because their side has the arkenpliers.

Presumably, we've only seen two attuned arkentools. We don't know what the effects of attuned arkenpliers might be. We do know that having the arkenpliers in a hex won't reverse the taming of dwagons, but that's not particularly meaningful or well established. If the arkenhammer does interfere with the archons (and we still don't know what the connection between the dish and the archons is, if there is any at all), then it will be a surprise to Charlie and, I'm sure, to everyone else on Erf.


Parson's strategy doesn't hinge on Stanley's return because as yet he has no way of knowing that Stanley is returning. He tried (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0121.html) to get Jack to convince Stanley to come back, but as far as he could tell he wasn't getting through.

In theory, Parson could have communicated with either Jack or Stanley before the end of GK's turn.


So much has been said since I read the thread... some points:

1) Charlie's contract doesn't have to be 'legally binding'. He makes them magically binding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html).
Caveat emptor.

2) Ansom is not the King of Jetstone. He does not have total control over the Jetstone treasury, forces, etc. How much control does he have? unknown. Another thought: he would be forced by duty to sacrifice himself if the alternative would lead to Jetstone's destruction. He may not be able to accept Charlie's contract...

3) All association between the 'pliers purpose being linked to croakamancy are equivalent to the 'hammers purpose being linked to making walnuts. It is one effect, and not nearly enough to go on. Besides, the Arkentools seem to have a utility theme rather than a branch of magic. What type of magic would the 'hammer be? Instead it seems to be combat oriented, and the 'dish is communication oriented. So what about the 'pliers? Pliers, particularly needle-nose, are tools of manipulation.

Or caveat signor, in this case.

Charlie would have little reason to ruin Jetstone, as far as we know. But he will charge whatever the market can bear: better to have a satisfied, if impoverished, customer than to eliminate him. It doesn't seem that Charlie would have any territorial designs on Jetstone, and Ansom cannot betray King Spacely either. But could Charlie come out of this with the pink slips of not one but two chief warlords? Abso-boopin'-lutely.

I've suggested before that the arkentools could have several different magical abilities associated with different mancies. Transforming birds to walnuts and vice versa could be a changeamancy effect, for example.

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 12:08 PM
2) Ansom is not the King of Jetstone. He does not have total control over the Jetstone treasury, forces, etc. How much control does he have? unknown. Another thought: he would be forced by duty to sacrifice himself if the alternative would lead to Jetstone's destruction. He may not be able to accept Charlie's contract...

True. However, in this case, I don't see Charlie as having any reason to deliberately offer a contract that the other party can't accept -- if he didn't want to at least consider making a deal with Ansom, he could have just ignored his cry. So, my guess is that Charlie is seriously raising his price (perhaps explicitly demanding Parson, his gauntlet, and/or the Arkenpliers), but not to the point where Ansom would reject the deal out of hand or would be unable to make the deal because King Slately hasn't given him enough latitude.


I never assumed that "ruthlessness" implied or suggested cruelty. That would be "sadism." Ruthlessness only suggests that you do what is necessary to achieve your goal.

As a couple people suggested, it probably means being more hard-nosed about risking people you know and like personally. It's easy to be ruthless toward enemies you know only as a blip on a display ("croak, not capture" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0076.html)), not so much to be ruthless with your own friends.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 12:14 PM
As a couple people suggested, it probably means being more hard-nosed about risking people you know and like personally. It's easy to be ruthless toward enemies you know only as a blip on a display ("croak, not capture" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0076.html)), not so much to be ruthless with your own friends.

He has previously expressed misgivings about ordering people to their deaths; "hopefully" he is not letting that interfere with his actions today. The fact that he can revel in his discovery of "hosed" suggests that he is not overwhelmed by guilt, at any event.

MalikT
2008-12-10, 12:46 PM
what if the pliers attune to Sizemore instead

I think they will attune to Parson, it is possible that Parson is attuned to all Arkentools becouse they seem to be from our world.



Pliers, particularly needle-nose, are tools of manipulation.

I meant tools of creation becouse they were used by the titans to create the world.

Lamech
2008-12-10, 12:47 PM
the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.
This clears a lot up... hmm... so if Wanda gets to the Arkenpliers and lands she will be safe. In fact she'll probably be the best melee unit in the field of play. Now I wonder if Ansom will be able to get to saftey...

DragoonKain
2008-12-10, 12:55 PM
Actually, I think Wanda's golden now. She's behind the walls now, which I'm guessing means she's in the courtyard rather than the airspace. The archons can't go after her now, but they can still defend Ansom from the flying Uncroaked if he agrees to their terms.

But the pliers are as good as GK's.

mackamus
2008-12-10, 01:00 PM
Close but not quite- if theyre in the same hex they have to fight UNLESS they have warlords with their stacks and chose not to. RCC has warlords in hex obviously, and it seems likely that the acrhons themselves qualify as warlords in some fashion. Certainly they have warlords or the equivalent with them or they couldnt have left Parsons fliers alone.

I've been thinking about this. Could the Arkendish serve as a means of making all troops under Charlescomm control effectively Warlords, maybe not quite in battle terms but in leadership? The dish would allow Charlie to project his own warlord status onto the units in GK, and thus they wouldn't have to engage with enemies stacks as per unled units?

Godskook
2008-12-10, 01:19 PM
Close but not quite- if theyre in the same hex they have to fight UNLESS they have warlords with their stacks and chose not to. RCC has warlords in hex obviously, and it seems likely that the acrhons themselves qualify as warlords in some fashion. Certainly they have warlords or the equivalent with them or they couldnt have left Parsons fliers alone. QED.

"In hex" does not qualify as "leading". The warlords must necessarily be in the same stack to have leadership control. Your point on the Archons is not negated by this fact.

Of course, allied units don't have that problem.

dr pepper
2008-12-10, 01:20 PM
Ack, i was going to post last night, but the backup kicked in. One of these days i'm going to get onto the first page of an update comment.

Anyway, the previous page was awsome, but combined with this one, the Wanda vs Ansom encounter is awsome squared!

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 01:24 PM
I've been thinking about this. Could the Arkendish serve as a means of making all troops under Charlescomm control effectively Warlords, maybe not quite in battle terms but in leadership? The dish would allow Charlie to project his own warlord status onto the units in GK, and thus they wouldn't have to engage with enemies stacks as per unled units?

These possibilities have been raised before, but we know little to nothing about archons. We're pretty sure that they're not human, but we don't know whether their attacks are a type of magic or whether they can or cannot be casters.

I assume that there can be "warlord" versions of any sentient unit.

dr pepper
2008-12-10, 01:29 PM
It seems clear to me that Wanda immobilized the pliers. It was risky, but she only needed to do it for one melee round, just long enough for Webinar to get his shot.

fractal
2008-12-10, 03:12 PM
I just noticed that Wanda instructed Dora and Webinar to "Land, and engage." If they can get there before Ansom finishes his agreement, then the Archons probably can't kill them (although the Archons could carry Ansom to safety).

Sieggy
2008-12-10, 03:25 PM
When Stanley returns, remember, he has a master foolamancer with him that the RCC may or may not know about. And that up to this point, no indication was given (as of last turn, at the feast) that the fate or disposition of Jillian's aerial assault group was known, other than there was one hell of a blowup at the tower about the same time they left . . . If Jillian or Vinnie hasn't reported, if all they know is that Stanley is still alive, his numbers and capabilities are unknown.

If Parson thinkagrams Jack again, they can coordinate a strategy; I can see diversions galore from Jack . . . or something simple, powerful, and subtle.The question is whether or not Stanley is going to be cooperative.

Consider this, though, all the RCC combat troops are forward at the wall right now. All of the RCC siege train is stacked up on the road leading in. It is unlikely the units hauling / toting / pushing the train troops will have more than personal weapons for defense, with crappy to-hits and damage, being teamsters, carters, cloth golems, etc.

A flight of dwagons blasting their way along the road could easily wipe out all of Ansom's siege with minimal damage. Any forces that Ansom or Charlie would deploy to deal with him would be that much less on GK.

Keep in mind that all the troops in the world aren't going to do the RCC any good outside the walls, and siege is how you get through them. Destroy the siege towers, and the assault fails. At this point they are relatively unguarded and vulnerable. Destroy the siege train and that does it, battle over to all intents and purposes. What transpires inside the walls is still important, but it makes it a purely magical contest then, not based on massed troops and such. Which would pare the story down to it's crucial elements . . .

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 03:51 PM
Sieggy: Are you suggesting that cloth golems aren't strong offensive units? I would count them as heavies.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 03:56 PM
Sieggy: Are you suggesting that cloth golems aren't strong offensive units? I would count them as heavies.

On par with spidews, apparently. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0025.html)

Sieggy
2008-12-10, 04:19 PM
Sieggy: Are you suggesting that cloth golems aren't strong offensive units? I would count them as heavies.

Sure, but they have no range capability. As Ansom has just shown, airborne forces are only subject to arrow fire, and I would assume that RCC would have all combat troops up assisting the assault. After all, the GK forces are all bottled up inside the walls, right? Why keep troops back when (especially archers who can put plunging fire on the uncroaked on the walls) they are needed in the battle which has been joined.

Without the ability to engage airborne forces, the siege train is a prone and motionless target. And a target which has been forgotten in the fog of war . . . maybe. But also recall, destroying the siege was Parson's opening gambit, which was devastatingly successful, to judge from Ansom's reaction and Vinnie's analysis. Stanley didn't like it at first, but definitely approved of the outcome.

In fact, it was the loss of these siege units that bought Parson the time to do what he's doing. Had the RCC siege units deployed the turn before, Parson would have been booped. But the destruction of the closest siege bought GK a turn. Destruction of the rest would win the battle, as RCC would have no way through the walls. Charlie, OTOH, remains an issue.

fendrin
2008-12-10, 04:53 PM
Sure, but they have no range capability.
Don't forget the boulders they throw as powerfully as a siege engine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0131.html).

selgnij
2008-12-10, 05:14 PM
About the Archons being able to Move this turn.

We know that units need Move to switch hexes, but GK is all one hex, so they should be able to move around that. The only question is if switching zones takes move, and Parson's klog suggest that it does not. Although its never been stated clearly if you can switch zones off-turn, its never been said you couldn't either.

About the possible hopelessness of the situation if Charlie rejoins the RCC.

If he does join, its going to be bad news for the units on the walls. I can't see the weak undead holding out against the archons and the siege forces at the same time. So there goes the outer walls. How many will make it back to the garrison, who knows? Its not a lost cause just yet though, remember that the undead are weak, but there are an aweful lot of them. If things go down into the dungeon, they are going to have a lot of bonuses stacked on them as well. (I know that a lot may get taken out on the walls, but we haven't seen uncroaked marbits there yet.)

1) Parson's citywide bonus. (At least +2, possibly more since he received his sword)

2) Parson's direct bonus. Unknown.

3) Stack bonuses to any troops being led by the uncroaked warlords. By my count GK has 4 just now, though at least one, and more likely 2, are likely to be croaked by the archons.

4) If Wanda makes it back, any she leads gain her bonus as well.

5) If Wanda makes it back, she'll likely have the pliers, artifact bonus.

6) Tunnel fighting bonuses for uncroaked marbits. (Based on assumtion that marbits got a bonus and they were uncroacked.)

Toss all those bonuses on and the uncroaked arn't likely to be weak units anymore. And the archons do not seem like units that would do well in enclosed areas like a dungeon.

If GK holds out for this turn, its possible that Stanley can return and get into GK via veil. If that happens, add another (capable) warlord to the mix, and another artifact bonus.

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 05:22 PM
About the Archons being able to Move this turn.

We know that units need Move to switch hexes, but GK is all one hex, so they should be able to move around that. The only question is if switching zones takes move, and Parson's klog suggest that it does not. Although its never been stated clearly if you can switch zones off-turn, its never been said you couldn't either.

We definitely know that GK units can move between zones without spending move.

As for non-GK units, they need to control one of the outer zones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html) (outer walls, airspace, tunnels) to attack the garrison. The tunnels are sealed, Charlie controls GK airspace (the fact that Parson talked to Charlie about Wanda's mission implies that he doesn't think their uncroaked air units can really challenge that even with Wanda's Croakamancer bonus), and the Coalition is working on the outer walls.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 05:36 PM
(the fact that Parson talked to Charlie about Wanda's mission implies that he doesn't think their uncroaked air units can really challenge that even with Wanda's Croakamancer bonus)

That's fairly clear. And it shouldn't surprise us if we assume that Charlie has enough archons to take on all of GK.

As an aside, I wonder whether Wanda had enough juice last turn to give Webinar and Dora the deluxed uncroaking treatment. Yes, they were initially raised with everyone else, but perhaps Wanda upgraded them afterward.

Prowl
2008-12-10, 06:09 PM
And let's not forget that warlord bonuses stack, hence the use of three warlords for the dwagon donut "group A" force.

I don't believe that is the case. I believe the use of three warlords in the group A force was done because they are the strongest units and would hit the hardest, as well as guaranteeing the ability to retreat.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 06:48 PM
I don't believe that is the case. I believe the use of three warlords in the group A force was done because they are the strongest units and would hit the hardest, as well as guaranteeing the ability to retreat.

Well, we know for sure that Warlord bonuses stack with the chief warlord hex bonus.

Also, I'm betting that a single dwagon is more powerful than a typical single warlord. Before I get corrected, no warlord has ever hit a full-health dwagon only once on his/her own and croaked it, with the only possible exception being Ansom*. Jillian always needed at least one gwiffon bite. On the other side, a red dwagon dismounted Jillian, ate her gwiffon mount, and captured her all in one pass.

*I consider Ansom the single most powerful RCC warlord. That he could do it while wielding pliers isn't much concern. Of course, the way that battle was shown, we can't assert that the purple dwagon didn't get hit by something else first.

Quimper
2008-12-10, 06:51 PM
A couple of things i have been asking for answers to myself:

1) The arkenhammer tames dragons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0004.html). Does this mean it spawns dragons regulairly or does it mean you have to encounter dragons and then it tames (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0031.html)them (also, hammer-levitation for the first time)? If you need to find dragons, can Stanley find some in the mountains on his way back to replenish forces (albeit lev 1)? Where did he find the original dragons? If the hammer spawns dragons magically every X turn or so, does this mean the arkendish spawns archons? What does the pliers spawn?

2) Gobwin Knob produces units. The bigger the unit, the more turns before it pops (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0048.html). Since its taken around 3-4 turns (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html) without popping now, can we expect a huge unit to pop the next turn?

Other stuff
Jillian had two magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0024.html). Hat and sword?

Does these guys/girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0015.html) remind you of Wanda, and possibly some other characters in the series)?

Wandas other schools of magic (unless they are bought items): Findamancy&Lookamancy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0036.html), Thinkamancy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0039.html) (evidence 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0093.html), Predictamancy (if this is Wanda) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0119.html).
Fate seems to be a central plot point. Thinkamancy, Croakamancy and Predictamancy (Wandas primary magic?) belongs to fate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0040.html).

Have Jillian Wanda been following a prophecy from FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0091.html) and let Stanley kill king Banhammer just to await fate. Evidence of conspiracy... And Wandas manipulative ways to influence Stanley possibly for hers and Jillians mutual agenda/future. Though in the end it seems Jillian iand Wanda is having a falling out.. 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0030.html) 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0039.html) 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0045.html) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0054.html) (5) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0057.html) 7 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0070.html) 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0071.html) 9 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0074.html) 10 (turn of events for Wanda) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0078.html) 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html) 12 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0105.html)

Just to get some more discussion going. ;)

Kreistor
2008-12-10, 07:06 PM
Okay, let's talk about the Archons first. In 93, Ansom orders Jillian to break alliance and ally with Transylvito. This puts her "turn" before Stanley's, which means Ansom's turn is after. What he does not do is order her to break alliance again and re-ally with Ansom to get a second turn. That means units get one turn, regardless of alliance changes. The archons, whom we believe to have ended turn (presumes Charlie didn't lie about that), have no move and can not attack. This means that they cannot enter the Courtyard space. (Airspace ending on the ground is highly unlikely. This would allow them to fly freely at ground level within range of melee attacks from ground units. Airspace needs to end well above the ground.

In frame 5, it is clear the Pliers fell past the outer walls (ie. the edge of the caldera). Further, in the last frame, Wanda is shown flying straight away from Ansom and the Archons, seemingly straight down. What this means is she is diving fast for the Pliers. Why? If the Pliers were on the ground, the Archons can't touch them with no attack left. Simple. The Pliers are still in the air and falling as of the end of 133. The Archons could still fly fast for it and grab it, potentially faster than Wanda's speed, since they fly by direct flight. An unanswerable question at the moment, but if Wanda felt there was no threat to the Pliers, she would ignore them. Ansom is done as a flier, so only Charlie's forces could grab them.

Now, there is something else we can see in the strip. The Archons are in fact not at all concerned with the Pliers. Now, Ansom says in 119 that he thought Charlie chomped pretty hard on the idea of getting the Pliers, but that conversation in 105 doesn't read that way. Charlie seems far more interested in Parson's claims of what he can achieve. He doesn't mention the Pliers at all, only Parson does. We do know from 90 that Parson has intrigued Charlie and that Charlie does not forsee Parson's death, bu tthis was before Parson's In Your Face with Ansom, where he enraged the Prince and Ansom is now taking it very personally (118). What we do know is that Charlie wants the Mathemancy artefact and hopefully Parson, and Charlie thinks that he can ensure Parson's survival (105.7)..

There is one other thing we know about Charlie. He does not want to lose rep (90.7). So Charlie is against overt backstabbing. He is in for the subtle art of manipulation. But he wants Parson, a smart warlord. That means he is not against violence.

So, let's break this down. What do we know about the situation from Charlie's perspective?

1. He is more interested in a better alliance deal with Ansom than the Pliers.
2. He is not overtly aggressive.
3. He wants smart warlords.
4. Ansom may have gotten a bug in his teeth and wants Parson's corpse.

All this says that Charlie's deal comes down to this: he can only protect Ansom while the siege moves into the square Ansom had cleared. (He clearly has the choice to defend against attacking units, since he chose not to attack Wanda's force.) So, he is offering to prevent Ansom being captured. He will not be asking for the Pliers, which Ansom no longer possesses. He will be asking for the new, untested Mathemancy device. He will also be asking for Parson.

Charlie is less of an enigma than he is played out to be. He, unlike the other participants in the conflict against Stanley, is not doing this for revenge or hatred. (He could have needed the war fast by moving on the garrison. Even with no chance of success, he still would do massive damage. Clearly, damaging Stanley isn't in his best interest.) Since he wants Parson, then he is almost certainly interested in conquest. So why not backstab the attackers by attacking the homelands of the army? Becuase that makes him next on the list for the Alliance to smash. He might gain a little quick territory, but he'd be squashed next. It wrecks his rep, which is important to him. Charlie thinks long term, and hedges his bets. He now sees something useful coming out of the fall of GK -- Parson in Charlescomm. Previously, the best he likely foresaw was two massive armies smashing each other, weakening themselves, sp that Charlescomm can expand after the Alliance breaks up. But a powerful, out of box thinker warlord might gain him far more than just a little land. Parson can play the intrigue game, too, which works with Charlescomm strategy.

Charles is, like all the others, out to win this game. He can't hide that. Ansom's victory raises his stature, and hands him initiative in the general war to win the world. Charles' contract has to ensure that he comes out of this with a powerful advantage, but it also must be something Ansom will agree to. he wouldn't give up the Pliers, so Charles wouldn't ask for them. He would give up the mathemancy artefact that he knows little or nothing about. So, what this comes down to is: can Ansom suck up his pride enough to allow Parson to live later in exchange for saving his own life now? The answer has to be "yes", but we will learn much about Ansom in how he comes to that decision. What else is there that Charles could possibly be interested in? Sure, cash, but Charles does not strike me as someone that would view cash as more powerful than an intriguing person like Parson. Yes, Charles would ask for cash, but only as a distraction to hide his real intention of gaining Parson. The Warlord you know is worth far more than the one you have yet to pop.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 07:08 PM
Fate seems to be a central plot point. Thinkamancy, Croakamancy and Predictamancy (Wandas primary magic?) belongs to fate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0040.html).

Unless there are unexplained mechanics, Wanda's primary magic is Croakamancy, and always has been. So says one of Parson's food wrappers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html).


Charlie is less of an enigma than he is played out to be.

Says the guy who took 5-8 monsters of paragraphs to describe him when most characters in this show wouldn't take more than 2 for the same level of understanding.

ralphmerridew
2008-12-10, 07:18 PM
I see how Stanley could stop Charlie! Look way back in comic page 22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html)panels 4,5 and 6. We don't know how canceling works, so it might very well be the any effects produced by an Arkentool are removed when another attuned arkentool is in the same hex. And if the archons are arken-controlled, they will be quite worthless to the coalition; which could full well change the course of battle.

Imagine a rule like "When a unit has an attuned arkentool, that unit and all allied units have a 2x bonus to all stats." If both sides have that bonus, it's the same as if neither side had the bonus. (One side might do double damage, but the other side has double the HP.) Vinny might have been expecting a rule like that.

VariaVespasa
2008-12-10, 07:27 PM
I've been thinking about this. Could the Arkendish serve as a means of making all troops under Charlescomm control effectively Warlords, maybe not quite in battle terms but in leadership? The dish would allow Charlie to project his own warlord status onto the units in GK, and thus they wouldn't have to engage with enemies stacks as per unled units?

Its certainly possible, although we have no evidence one way or the other. And it would certainly be in keeping with the arkendishes apparent theme. It might explain why he's so thinkagram-happy with his archons too- its the info feed he needs to be able to decide what commands to give them. Quite apart from just loving information in general, of course.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 07:33 PM
Now, there is something else we can see in the strip. The Archons are in fact not at all concerned with the Pliers. Now, Ansom says in 119 that he thought Charlie chomped pretty hard on the idea of getting the Pliers, but that conversation in 105 doesn't read that way. Charlie seems far more interested in Parson's claims of what he can achieve. He doesn't mention the Pliers at all, only Parson does.

This surprised me as well, but I trust Parson's judgment on the matter. He would not make careless or unfounded assumptions, particularly when it comes to an enigma like Charlie.


(He could have needed the war fast by moving on the garrison. Even with no chance of success, he still would do massive damage. Clearly, damaging Stanley isn't in his best interest.) Since he wants Parson, then he is almost certainly interested in conquest.

Of course Charlie isn't averse to violence. If he were, he'd be a poor mercenary. But he is a mercenary, and that is why he didn't just move on the garrison for free when he anticipated doing so more cheaply after each side had been weakened (and with the added potential profit of an arkentool). Why attack that day for free when he can be paid, and likely quite handsomely, to do so the next day?

I would not assume that Charlie is interested in traditional conquests. Anyone on Erf would want Parson, and he could hire him out for a tidy profit. Parties involved in any battle would find themselves bidding against each other just to consult Parson for a few minutes.

Erf is a game-like world. But we don't know what Charlie's game is.

VariaVespasa
2008-12-10, 07:47 PM
I don't believe that is the case. I believe the use of three warlords in the group A force was done because they are the strongest units and would hit the hardest, as well as guaranteeing the ability to retreat.

They used the warlords to enable selective attacks and the ability to retreat. Being decaying units, they hadnt had time to achieve more than middling levels, especially being on the losing end of a war, and thus arent huge combat units by themselves. Decent units, but not huge.

selgniJ- GK only has 2 uncroaked warlords left now. They started with 5, and lost 3 over the lake. Plus 3 casters and Parson who can all act as commanders if they wish to.

ralphmerridew
2008-12-10, 08:12 PM
Charlie's giving me a Ben from Lost vibe right now.
I.e. No matter how bad things may look for him at any given point, HE GETS WHAT HE WANTS. Always.

But how bad do things look for Charlie at this point? So far, he's lost one archon. His territory is under no particular threat. At any time, he can declare this a missed opportunity and pull out. If things go well for him (RCC and GK nearly wipe each other out), he will profit greatly.

selgnij
2008-12-10, 08:24 PM
selgniJ- GK only has 2 uncroaked warlords left now. They started with 5, and lost 3 over the lake. Plus 3 casters and Parson who can all act as commanders if they wish to.

It depends on if Weby and Dora maintain warlord status. We know warlords can be uncroaked and retain warlord status, but we don't know if the "uncroak all" spell leaves them as warlords or basic infantry.

Someone up above mentioned the archons not being able to go to the courtyard, as far as we know there isn't anything stopping them from doing so, they may be out of Move, but moving around the city doesn't require it apparently.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 08:45 PM
Someone up above mentioned the archons not being able to go to the courtyard, as far as we know there isn't anything stopping them from doing so, they may be out of Move, but moving around the city doesn't require it apparently.

The Author's user name is PClips. He has explicitly stated in another thread that the Archons cannot engage any unit until Charlie's turn, except those in GK's airspace.

grumbleboom
2008-12-10, 09:40 PM
One assumption people are making in this is that GK's chances against Charlie have stayed exactly the same as when Parson informed Charlie of the number of units he would need to take the Garrison. As far as I've seen, Charlie hasn't gotten updated numbers for how many archons he would need.

Things that have changed since Parson told Charlie how many units were required to take GK.

1. Parson got his sword completed
2. GK increased its ground forces substantially
3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

Charlie is working with outdated intel and my bet is that it will bite him.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 09:59 PM
The Author's user name is PClips. He has explicitly stated in another thread that the Archons cannot engage any unit until Charlie's turn, except those in GK's airspace.

You can find the these comments here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99077#5

Things that have changed since Parson told Charlie how many units were required to take GK.

1. Parson got his sword completed
2. GK increased its ground forces substantially
3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

Charlie is working with outdated intel and my bet is that it will bite him.

I somehow suspect that Charlie is not going to make that sort of assumption, and his archons are giving him front row seats to much of the action. He had other archons there when the AA defenses were first employed, too.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 10:26 PM
3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

I highly doubt that GK's air defenses reload every turn(or day). Main reason being that since Jillian flew over during RCC's turn, there'd be no obvious reason not to shoot at them if they would all immediately reload in the morning(This was before Parson became aware of sides involved in this that have earlier turns than him). Parson's order's, combined with his complaining that Wanda "blew their wad early" lends itself to the conclusion that the air defenses take time to reload, in one way or another.

Lamech
2008-12-10, 10:28 PM
One assumption people are making in this is that GK's chances against Charlie have stayed exactly the same as when Parson informed Charlie of the number of units he would need to take the Garrison. As far as I've seen, Charlie hasn't gotten updated numbers for how many archons he would need.

Things that have changed since Parson told Charlie how many units were required to take GK.

1. Parson got his sword completed
2. GK increased its ground forces substantially
3. GK's air defenses have probably reloaded (new turn after all, though this can't be guaranteed)

Charlie is working with outdated intel and my bet is that it will bite him.
Charlie probably doesn't know about one as he probably doesn't know Parson is popping magic items. He DOES know about number two, he can see those undecayed undead swarms swarming, on the walls; they are likely a new addition. Three the air defense probably don't reload, simply because if that was the case GK would be almost invincable from the air, of course strongest position in the world, having a uber-caster or two, and the magic kingdom on call... maybe. Regardless Charlie will ask for a recalculation before attacking Parson, if he gets a no-go result he will not attack. At which point either Stanley, the casters or archers could probably force the Archons out of GK. (Or into battle with the garrison but thats would be a no-go.)

Edit @/\ : Good point. They could reload slowly. One doom shot a day or some such...

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 11:34 PM
I don't think that even if the entire defenses reloaded each turn that would make GK impervious to air attacks. After all, blowing out most of their AA in one shot only took down four units.

We do not know whether the AA defenses reload automatically, but perhaps some sort of casting or work is needed.

grumbleboom
2008-12-11, 12:02 AM
Oh, I agree that Charlie has a front row seat to the action, and he can see the uncroaked units and all that, I'm just saying that the situation has drastically changed and he would be well served to use another couple calculations prior to action if Parson accepts contact with him.

As for the air defenses and reloading or whatever, I really don't see why they wouldn't reload at the beginning of a side's turn. Would it be "game breaking?" No, probably not and it would be similar in mechanic to breaking through walls that can be repaired. I say without reloading air defenses on cities, air units become vastly unbalanced.

As is, if we assume that they do NOT reload, Parson still has the 32 archer class infantry listed on PK#7 in addition to any marbit archers he could have animated. Long story short, his anti-air is not as bad as we all assume it is.

Now we have no evidence of any of this, but I generally try to use my posts in a more hypothetical way to stimulate discussion of possibilities. :)

DevilDan
2008-12-11, 12:22 AM
As for the air defenses and reloading or whatever, I really don't see why they wouldn't reload at the beginning of a side's turn. Would it be "game breaking?" No, probably not and it would be similar in mechanic to breaking through walls that can be repaired. I say without reloading air defenses on cities, air units become vastly unbalanced.

We don't know. A caster is apparently required; but we don't even know the nature of the defenses. If a mechanism is involved, I think that it would be the first machine (discounting simple machines) we've seen, I believe. Of course, there's still the portals the Magic Kingdom and the couple of magic items we've seen...

vrellum
2008-12-11, 12:26 AM
Don't forget the luckamancy charms. I suspect they should amount to a fair bonus as well.

DarkCloud
2008-12-11, 01:28 AM
<law student>
Well, no, this is more like a service contract, i.e. I do this for you in exchange for this kind of payment. A license agreement, on the other hand, typically grants the use of intellectual property subject to certain conditions.
</law student>

And I'm reasonably confident that Charlie knows how to write a legally binding contract... whether its magically binding or not might be something to consider. And the fun part would come if he agrees to give away the pliers, which aren't in his possession any more to be able to give away, and what happens if he can't pay up to Charlie. :smallbiggrin:

But clicking "I accept" binds the acceptee to all the terms of the deal regardless if its a Service contract or if it falls under the UCC for sales of goods. There would be no battle of the forms and could be no dispute in that case; Correct?

Sieggy
2008-12-11, 01:31 AM
I really feel sorry for Ansom at the moment, he is truly in about as bad a situation as they come. He can't take the time to 'carefully read' the contract, as he has a flight of uncroaked descending on him, as well as being surrounded by a horde of uncroaked against whom, I suppose, he could use his fists at this point. He just got beat up by a girl in hot fetish leather, his former best friend (?), and some really big titted flying critter that packed a hell of a kick, lost his artifact, and now he's alone on top of a wall watching his uncroaked best friend come for him while his twinkie drifts on the breeze . . . .

He HAS to know that Charlie is going to flat stick it to him , but he can't take the time to find out how . . . until it's WAY too late . . . I just hope the agreement included something to the effect of having to work weekends as his cabana boy or something like that.

I can't see Ansom being able to complete his transaction before Wanda retrieves the pliers. She has already initiated action, and is in hot pursuit even as Ansom agonizes . . . And the Archons primary concern will be extracting Ansom, not chasing Wanda.

Bear in mind that next CR, Webinar, Dora, the unipegataurs, and Jaclyn will be there to capture Ansom. If the agreement is struck, that automatically initiates hostilities, as the uncroaked will attack the Archons if they're interfering with them. And you have to know that 'Rescue' was on the top of the 'Services Rendered' list.

Now, does an attack by GK forces on Charlies forces trying to take Ansom make it a melee? Can all Archons engage, or just the ones mixing it up with the uncroaked trying to go through them? And does a service contract cover him from the instant of acceptance, or does that begin the start of next round? Rescue is vital if only that Dead Men Pay No Bills, and estate claims take forever . . . But they know that Ansom won't be killed, too.

I really don't like the fact that the uncroaked Jaclyn has disappeared, it says that something tricky is up . . .

BTW, I really like the rate at which the updates are coming! Both here and OOTS, too.

DevilDan
2008-12-11, 02:26 AM
The archons can attack any unit they want so long as that unit is where they're located, which is GK's airspace.

Kreistor
2008-12-11, 07:10 AM
The air defences might have been one shots, which will never reload. What we saw was a lot of explosions, not units firing arrows and so on. I think it is very unlikely that any of those defences will recover. GK's air defences ould normally be the mobile dwagons. This type of defence makes Wanda's decision to fire them off even more dramatic. They're used up, and Stanley is going to be very mad she blew all that money, until he learns that had she not, he would have faced overwhelming odds in the gap, instead of just poor odds.

SteveMB
2008-12-11, 09:21 AM
The air defences might have been one shots, which will never reload. What we saw was a lot of explosions, not units firing arrows and so on. I think it is very unlikely that any of those defences will recover. GK's air defences ould normally be the mobile dwagons. This type of defence makes Wanda's decision to fire them off even more dramatic. They're used up, and Stanley is going to be very mad she blew all that money, until he learns that had she not, he would have faced overwhelming odds in the gap, instead of just poor odds.

I dunno about "never", but I wouldn't be surprised if reloading them takes either several turns (like popping a powerful unit) and mucho shmuckero. If we see a situation where it would be really helpful to be able to do that again, and they don't, I suppose that will implicitly answer the question.

Lamech
2008-12-11, 09:38 AM
I don't think that even if the entire defenses reloaded each turn that would make GK impervious to air attacks. After all, blowing out most of their AA in one shot only took down four units.
Erm... it croaked more than that. 3 unipegituars, one archon and a bunch of peeps and gwiffions. The forces went from this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0104.html) down to four gwiffions, two archons, one Jillian and fourish orlies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0126.html)... thats a bit more than four units croaked

the_tick_rules
2008-12-11, 10:57 AM
I'm guessing besides a butt load of cash Charlie wants Parson. Maybe the pliers to boot.

SteveMB
2008-12-11, 11:08 AM
He HAS to know that Charlie is going to flat stick it to him , but he can't take the time to find out how . . . until it's WAY too late . . .

Another entertaining possibility that occurs to me -- he might be giving up stuff that some of his allies expected to collect as part of their spoils. They'll just love that.... :smallfurious:

One Skunk Todd
2008-12-11, 11:11 AM
Where is Ansom? Panel 4 makes it looks like he landed on top of the wall while the pliers keep falling in Panel 5. But in Panel 7 he seems to be laying on the ground inside the wall, next to the pliers.



A couple of things i have been asking for answers to myself:

<snip>

Does these guys/girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0015.html) remind you of Wanda, and possibly some other characters in the series)?

</snip>

Off the top of my head, they look like Vinnie, Dora, Webinar and Sizemore.

fendrin
2008-12-11, 11:21 AM
Where is Ansom? Panel 4 makes it looks like he landed on top of the wall while the pliers keep falling in Panel 5. But in Panel 7 he seems to be laying on the ground inside the wall, next to the pliers

He is on top of the wall. What you are seeing in Panel 7 as the 'pliers is the Archon with the agreement. Her glow is hard to see against the light colored surface, but it is there.

teratorn
2008-12-11, 11:24 AM
Where is Ansom? Panel 4 makes it looks like he landed on top of the wall while the pliers keep falling in Panel 5. But in Panel 7 he seems to be laying on the ground inside the wall, next to the pliers.

In 7 he's clarly on the wall, with the helmet near his head and an archon very close. That archon is missing the glare though.

Edit: wow, ninja'd.

Lamech
2008-12-11, 11:25 AM
Eeepy! I just noticed something! Look at the undead and Ansom location's in this strip. Ansom almost fell into GK, and the undead are up front. See panel 7 and 4. Last strip the undead were on the back part of the wall. Those undead are moving around!

Thats good! (Or bad depending on your point of view.)

One Skunk Todd
2008-12-11, 11:26 AM
He is on top of the wall. What you are seeing in Panel 7 as the 'pliers is the Archon with the agreement. Her glow is hard to see against the light colored surface, but it is there.

Ah, ok that makes a little more sense, Thanks.

Edit: Heh, I just noticed in panel 4 of the last strip (119) that the Archon is sticking her tongue out at Parson. :)

mroozee
2008-12-11, 11:45 AM
But clicking "I accept" binds the acceptee to all the terms of the deal regardless if its a Service contract or if it falls under the UCC for sales of goods. There would be no battle of the forms and could be no dispute in that case; Correct?

If I were representing Ansom, I'd argue that this constitutes an unconscionable adhesion contract, particularly if the terms have changed.

VariaVespasa
2008-12-11, 11:56 AM
The archons can attack any unit they want so long as that unit is where they're located, which is GK's airspace.

We know from the klog that garrison units that have archery can attack units in the airspace. It may apply the other way around too, and the archons may have stuff that qualifies as archery, like the assorted beams they used on the dwagons at the lake. So they might be able to use missile fire into the adjacent zones. We will see.

Can Ansom mount a unit in a different zone? if not then he cant grab an archon for a ride. He might even have trouble getting his carpet back. hmm.

fendrin
2008-12-11, 11:57 AM
If I were representing Ansom, I'd argue that this constitutes an unconscionable adhesion contract, particularly if the terms have changed.

Magical contract. No doubt that the contract's fine print includes a clause about not seeking ways to nullify the contract without the consent of all parties involved (i.e. Charlescomm).

teratorn
2008-12-11, 12:08 PM
Can Ansom mount a unit in a different zone? if not then he cant grab an archon for a ride.

:smalleek::smallredface:


Eeepy! I just noticed something! Look at the undead and Ansom location's in this strip. Ansom almost fell into GK, and the undead are up front. See panel 7 and 4. Last strip the undead were on the back part of the wall. Those undead are moving around!


It makes sense, they let the strong units engage Ansom, they can attack siege, and they are blocking Ansom from jumping from the wall (he might have survived that). Probably Parson can control them using Maggie and deploy them as he thinks it's best.

Surprise!
2008-12-11, 04:58 PM
I am betting that when Wanda grabs those pliers it will turn out they are attuned to her. What with their so far connection with the uncroaked. The unknown powers of the Arkentool could easily turn the tide on any benefits Ansom gets for agreeing to Charlie's terms.

Godskook
2008-12-11, 05:31 PM
I don't think that even if the entire defenses reloaded each turn that would make GK impervious to air attacks. After all, blowing out most of their AA in one shot only took down four units.

By my count, Jillian had at least 5 unipegataurs and 6-8 gwiffons before Wanda attacked. Only 4 of those gwiffons made it to the pass. Disregarding Orly causalties, thats at least 8-10 sizeable units that the AA took down.

RaptorSLH
2008-12-11, 05:44 PM
[quote] Now, Ansom says in 119 that he thought Charlie chomped pretty hard on the idea of getting the Pliers, but that conversation in 105 doesn't read that way. [ /quote]

105 - Charlie was planning on attacking Gobwin Knob to collect the Mathamancy watch artifact and, if possible, Parson. (Or, at least, that's what he was claiming he would do.) That changed when Parson offered him the Arkenpliers. Afterwards, his stated plan was to hold back and "watch the show" unless Ansom offers enough for assistance- which means he risks losing the watch and Parson entirely. (A 40% chance of Parson being overwhelmed next turn is not negligable.) So either:

A) Parson is right, and Charles wants the pliers bad enough to take a substantial risk for them.

or

B) Charles enjoys watching a well-fought battle enough to risk substantial loss for no other purpose.

Option "B" is not impossible given human (or Erfworlder) nature, but I do find it less likely.

kunou126
2008-12-11, 05:51 PM
Charlie did not agree not to attack GK forces this round. He simply said that Ansom had not given him any incentive to. If/Once Ansom agrees to the terms of the deal, Charlie will be able to attack anything within the hex his flying units can hit.

But who knows what's in that contract now? Maybe Charlie will be running the RCC now? We simply don't have enough details regarding this as yet.

I do agree that the odds have changed considerably since Parson calculated those odds for Charlie. All I know is I don't feel sorry for Ansom. His own foolish pride got him where he is now, and he has to reap what he sows.

I'm more interested to know what Jillian is thinking right now. First Wanda follows Stanley of her own choice, and now Jack has also given her a similar reaction. She really has to be wondering what's so damn special/important about Stanley.

Need... more...

DevilDan
2008-12-11, 06:08 PM
By my count, Jillian had at least 5 unipegataurs and 6-8 gwiffons before Wanda attacked. Only 4 of those gwiffons made it to the pass. Disregarding Orly causalties, thats at least 8-10 sizeable units that the AA took down.

Yes, thank you. Lamech was kind enough to point out my egregious oversight too. (Does that mean that Wanda didn't have enough juice to uncroak more air units or that their corpses were far too damaged?)


If/Once Ansom agrees to the terms of the deal, Charlie will be able to attack anything within the hex his flying units can hit.

The archons could always attack units in GK airspace and only those units. The contract doesn't change that in any way, shape, or form.

Raguzert
2008-12-11, 07:00 PM
Nice comic. I believe ansom wanting to ally to charlie, is so that the archons can 'legally' defend him, being in the same space. So far, it seems pretty much 'set' that when a unit attacks, it gets the advantage, but then if the opposition is not eliminated, the attacker is helpless until next turn.
While stanley going for charlie is a great plan, there's no indication of such, if only, last thing said in the matter was jack's sugestion of going back.
If charlie's contract is any good, I do hope it has a "will quit when/if I ever see fit, no reimbursements" term.

grumbleboom
2008-12-11, 07:30 PM
One last thing before i fade back into the shadows...

Charlescomm already ended turn. If they join the alliance, I don't think they would be able to attack. Defend, yes... Attack, no... If they can, that would be a HUGELY exploitable rule and I would really have to call shenanigans.

teratorn
2008-12-11, 07:45 PM
By my count, Jillian had at least 5 unipegataurs and 6-8 gwiffons before Wanda attacked. Only 4 of those gwiffons made it to the pass. Disregarding Orly causalties, thats at least 8-10 sizeable units that the AA took down.

She had something like 13 gwiffons, at least that's the number of yellow thingies I count when she approaches Wanda. I don't think gwiffons were killed by Wanda.

At the time of the donut of doom there were 5 gwiffons with a rather large move (24+ when she got rid of Webinar). One of them got killed in the fight. It makes sense that the surviving four are the ones that went with Jillian to the ambush site. The rest should be halfway, ready to be used if Stanley had made it and needed to be hunted, or to go back to the column if needed.

Jillian probably still has a lot of units with her.

Kreistor
2008-12-11, 07:45 PM
Grumbleboom, you'd be right. The author has already verified that Charlescomm has ended turn and can't get another this round.

Author on the turn rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5448054&postcount=5)

teratorn
2008-12-11, 07:52 PM
One last thing before i fade back into the shadows...

Charlescomm already ended turn. If they join the alliance, I don't think they would be able to attack. Defend, yes... Attack, no... If they can, that would be a HUGELY exploitable rule and I would really have to call shenanigans.

It's more a question of zones inisde city hexes, if charlescomm can move between zones outside of their turn. They could attack Wanda while she flew there, no problems there (TV and Jillian actively attacked Stanley on his turn ). The question was if they could enter another zone outside of their turn. The authors have clarified that, they can not.

vrellum
2008-12-11, 08:30 PM
So if Charlie allies with Ansom GK will get to go before Charlie and RCC can act again. Would that give time for Stanley to make it back? I think it might.

Godskook
2008-12-11, 08:32 PM
She had something like 13 gwiffons, at least that's the number of yellow thingies I count when she approaches Wanda. I don't think gwiffons were killed by Wanda.

Why? Gut feeling or something in the comic?


At the time of the donut of doom there were 5 gwiffons with a rather large move (24+ when she got rid of Webinar). One of them got killed in the fight. It makes sense that the surviving four are the ones that went with Jillian to the ambush site. The rest should be halfway, ready to be used if Stanley had made it and needed to be hunted, or to go back to the column if needed.

I'm fairly certain that all Gwiffons have a max move stat of at least ~40. Reason being that we know that Jillian's personal Gwiffon has a max 50+ move. I believe that most of the time, when we hear talk of move, they are referring to current_move, rather than max_move. Given that the only time we here of a 4 move gwiffon, its a used one, and Jillian orders Webinar to conduct a search that would expend 4 move to do, we know that Webinar's mount must have had a max_move higher than 4. This sort of confusion is rather easy, and happens from time to time with the HP stat, since no one bothers to say max_hp or current_hp.

Finally, two questions:

If some gwiffons couldn't make the full trip to the mountain pass, why did Jillian not leave them behind with Ansom? Ansom really could've used some flyers.

If all the gwiffons could've made the pass in time, why would Jillian leave some behind, considering the facts that she doubted it was possible with what they did have with them and considering the loss in forces they received before TV ended turn(Wanda's blast and Charlie's double-cross).


Jillian probably still has a lot of units with her.

Unless you're right, and Jillian has a pack of gwiffons hidden in some hex, no she doesn't, outside TV forces. She has 4 or less gwiffons and whatever orlys that survived the fight with Stanley(admittedly, we don't know when Jack started casting nor how capable illusions are at damage).

teratorn
2008-12-11, 08:47 PM
If some gwiffons couldn't make the full trip to the mountain pass, why did Jillian not leave them behind with Ansom? Ansom really could've used some flyers.
.

She could not, she would need a warlord from her side to stay with them to prevent them from attacking the coalition as soon as she left their stack.

kreszantas
2008-12-11, 08:51 PM
Jillian was given command of the all the fliers, her turn combined with Transylvito's turn would allow all the ones she took with her to make it, has she not decided to stop and have tea with Wanda on the way.

Her classification of Barbarian means that Jetstone could not "absorb" her troops to their side while she was out. Vinny indicates he has the control not Ansom by saying I should have left bats in the column.

Note only the units with the commands being given outside the wall are obeying (the bluish tin hats similar to jetstone) match that style the Uniroyal or the one giving the order to hurry the siege up.

Note also none of Sofa King or the Redhead commanders units doing ANYTHING since they have not ordered it. Ansom may LEAD the RCC but he can not force another faction to do something against that Kingdoms best wishes. Tarfu and the forest gumps with the 3 dragons is a good example of this as well.

SteveMB
2008-12-11, 08:54 PM
Nice comic. I believe ansom wanting to ally to charlie, is so that the archons can 'legally' defend him, being in the same space.

Apparently, they aren't exactly in the same space; the Archons are in GK airspace and Ansom is on the outer walls. (Even when he was flying, he was apparently still in "outer walls" rather than "airspace" in Erf-mechanics, enabling him to engage the mass of uncroaked -- that's a distinction that eluded me earlier.)

If he makes a deal with Charlie, the Archons could engage the flying uncroaked (they're both in GK airspace). Even if they can't engage the uncroaked ground-pounders on the walls, they may be so individually weak that Ansom can hold them off even without the Arkenpliers; he's still a rather strong unit in his own right.

teratorn
2008-12-11, 09:01 PM
Why? Gut feeling or something in the comic?

Where did the other fliers fall? Ansom didn't find any remains outside of the walls or the other RCC leaders would have commented on that. If there were gwiffons inside the walls why didn't Wanda try to uncroak them? Gwiffons are rather powerful.


Apparently, they aren't exactly in the same space; the Archons are in GK airspace and Ansom is on the outer walls. (Even when he was flying, he was apparently still in "outer walls" rather than "airspace" in Erf-mechanics, enabling him to engage the mass of uncroaked -- that's a distinction that eluded me earlier.)

Good point, but if he jumps from the wall? Is that airspace? Can the archons pick him up?

Surprise!
2008-12-11, 09:12 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html

I find it interesting we have seen any GK forces of the race of men yet. The 135 Pikers, and 48 Stabbers have remained invisible throughout the entirety of the comic.

teratorn
2008-12-11, 09:30 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html


RCC units surrounded the city during that same turn. If there were dead gwiffons or unipegataurs around them, they would have seen them. They would only disappear next morning. Wanda had a lot of time to play with her new toys before Ansom ended turn, so she could have uncroaked the extra units (even in a weaker form), had any of them fallen inside the walls.

It's possible they all died, but we only saw 4 of them croaking. Until Jillian gets back we won't know for sure.

Surprise!
2008-12-11, 09:48 PM
RCC units surrounded the city during that same turn. If there were dead gwiffons or unipegataurs around them, they would have seen them. They would only disappear next morning. Wanda had a lot of time to play with her new toys before Ansom ended turn, so she could have uncroaked the extra units (even in a weaker form), had any of them fallen inside the walls.

It's possible they all died, but we only saw 4 of them croaking. Until Jillian gets back we won't know for sure.

But it is also true the more time she spends on the less amount of units, the stronger they will be. Perhaps she was going for quality over quantity. And we don't know if the Gwriffons are stronger then the unipegataurs

teratorn
2008-12-11, 10:06 PM
But it is also true the more time she spends on the less amount of units, the stronger they will be. Perhaps she was going for quality over quantity. And we don't know if the Gwriffons are stronger then the unipegataurs

Yes, it's possible, maybe she would need a huge investment to make an uncroaked gwiffon fly. If there are only 3 gwiffons left that means that even after the ambush GK has a bigger flying force that RCC. They'd really need the archons. Stanley's arrival on next turn could end the battle.

But until Jillian comes back we have no certainty on this. If there were dead gwiffons inside the walls, Parson could have been snacking on them.

Gez
2008-12-11, 10:24 PM
Where did the other fliers fall? Ansom didn't find any remains outside of the walls or the other RCC leaders would have commented on that. If there were gwiffons inside the walls why didn't Wanda try to uncroak them? Gwiffons are rather powerful.

Parson ate them for breakfast. They were deliciously stale and crunchy.

Either that or the attack was powerful enough to utterly destroy some of the units, leaving no corpse.

Eraniverse
2008-12-11, 10:53 PM
105 - Charlie was planning on attacking Gobwin Knob to collect the Mathamancy watch artifact and, if possible, Parson. (Or, at least, that's what he was claiming he would do.) That changed when Parson offered him the Arkenpliers. Afterwards, his stated plan was to hold back and "watch the show" unless Ansom offers enough for assistance- which means he risks losing the watch and Parson entirely. (A 40% chance of Parson being overwhelmed next turn is not negligable.) So either:

A) Parson is right, and Charles wants the pliers bad enough to take a substantial risk for them.

or

B) Charles enjoys watching a well-fought battle enough to risk substantial loss for no other purpose.

Option "B" is not impossible given human (or Erfworlder) nature, but I do find it less likely.

Well there's a couple factors that weigh towards B.

1. Charles would have had to conquer the city solo to capture Parson immeadiately. Losses inevitable. By engaging selectively from the airspace without needing to actually send Archons to capture the city he can be in a support role and still achieve his goals.

2. Capturing the city directly would make it clear to everyone involved that there was something Charles wanted in GK especially if he departed next turn leaving the new city undefended. Why tip his hand?

3. Further independent action reminds the other kingdom that Charlescomm isn't just your friendly neighborhood mercenary, but actually a full fledged faction with goals and objectives all of its own.

DevilDan
2008-12-11, 10:55 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html

I find it interesting we have seen any GK forces of the race of men yet. The 135 Pikers, and 48 Stabbers have remained invisible throughout the entirety of the comic.

They may be more valuable and powerful than cannon fodder uncroaked. There may even be an element of racism in Stanley's original troop deployments. However, we know that Parson would not let that affect his plans.


Either that or the attack was powerful enough to utterly destroy some of the units, leaving no corpse.

I mentioned this before. But we could also speculate that a minimum level X of energy in needed to uncroak a unit such that it retains its natural flight ability. As such, the flying units seen were all that Wanda could raise to that level after having spent some of her strength using/invoking the air defenses. By the next turn, the rest of the corpses will have disappeared.

I still stand by the assertion that the archons can at any moment attack any unit in GK's airspace; they don't need Ansom or to ally with GK to do that. Why else would Parson ask Charlie for what was essentially permission to sortie Wanda and her flight group?

JazzManJim
2008-12-12, 12:53 AM
Well there's a couple factors that weigh towards B.

1. Charles would have had to conquer the city solo to capture Parson immeadiately. Losses inevitable. By engaging selectively from the airspace without needing to actually send Archons to capture the city he can be in a support role and still achieve his goals.

2. Capturing the city directly would make it clear to everyone involved that there was something Charles wanted in GK especially if he departed next turn leaving the new city undefended. Why tip his hand?

3. Further independent action reminds the other kingdom that Charlescomm isn't just your friendly neighborhood mercenary, but actually a full fledged faction with goals and objectives all of its own.

There's no reason for Charlie to act independently right now. He can enter an alliance with Jetstone via an agreement and, when victory is imminent, break the alliance and go before Jetstone to capture Parson.

I think Parson knows that and needs to make sure that the turn order remains the way it is in order to keep Charlie "honest" until he gets the Arkenpliers. That's another reason I think that Jack may have Stanley headed toward Charlescomm instead of GK. I suspect that Charlie doesn't have enough units at home to hold off Stanley's stack, so he's going to have to bring Archons back from GK. If he does, he won't be able to wait until after GK's turn to do it. He'll have to move more quickly, which means no alliance with Jetstone.

I could be wrong, though, in that his agreement with Jetstone may not constitute an alliance. It would seem an awful cheat if it didn't, though.

DarkCloud
2008-12-12, 12:55 AM
If I were representing Ansom, I'd argue that this constitutes an unconscionable adhesion contract, particularly if the terms have changed.

Hm... Possibly, although if Ansom gets 'some' value, as in his life, that would appear to be proportional and worthy enough as inducement. Therefore, neither side would necessarily be unjustly enriched.

Ansom could always make that argument though.

vrellum
2008-12-12, 01:16 AM
There's no reason for Charlie to act independently right now. He can enter an alliance with Jetstone via an agreement and, when victory is imminent, break the alliance and go before Jetstone to capture Parson.

I think Parson knows that and needs to make sure that the turn order remains the way it is in order to keep Charlie "honest" until he gets the Arkenpliers. That's another reason I think that Jack may have Stanley headed toward Charlescomm instead of GK. I suspect that Charlie doesn't have enough units at home to hold off Stanley's stack, so he's going to have to bring Archons back from GK. If he does, he won't be able to wait until after GK's turn to do it. He'll have to move more quickly, which means no alliance with Jetstone.

I could be wrong, though, in that his agreement with Jetstone may not constitute an alliance. It would seem an awful cheat if it didn't, though.

But Parson will get the pliers on Ansom's part of this turn. If Charlie joins up with RCC then Charlie's troops won't get to do anything other than attack airborne troops this turn. Next turn they won't get to go until RCC, which is after GK. If they don't ally then Charlie gets to go before GK. So it looks like there is a small penalty for Charlie to ally with RCC as it allows Parson to regroup, heal, perhaps unlock some of the powers of the pliers and it might allow for Stanley to return all before Charlie and RCC get to act. If Charlie does not ally with RCC then Charlie will get to go before GK next turn.

kreszantas
2008-12-12, 01:17 AM
Either I am missing something or some are trying to read to much into the lastest Ansom / Charlie exchange. Simply put Ansom could not seal the deal, as soon as his royal boop is on the line he has call on others to do "things" for him. I think the re-alliance may and I say may be the final straw that causes the rest to break mid-turn, or possibly the ones that are sitting already on the sidelines.

Plus if his will is the Titan's will this SHOULD have served as a wake up call to Ansom, but alas it has not. Fate magic has worked against him and with the way he has presented the pliers as "his saving grace" or "his device he relies on" too many times. The pliers (with a little help) have/had a mind of their own and decided to pick a new friend. Now we also do not know that Wanda actually getting the pliers may actually harm her instead, all we know is that Ansom held them and used it as "superior weapon against undead".

This is all apart of the "plot/story" hook we are on so let us read/see it play out.

SpacemanSpif
2008-12-12, 01:21 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html

I find it interesting we have seen any GK forces of the race of men yet. The 135 Pikers, and 48 Stabbers have remained invisible throughout the entirety of the comic.

I see no reason not to think that the Pikers, Stabbers and Archers are not all Gobwins, just as the fighters and knights are.

I only just noticed that the K. I. S. S. are gobwins today (check out their little horns) and without that information the chart is more confusing, but it looks to me like all of the infantry listed in that strip are gobwins.

SeraphRainy
2008-12-12, 02:07 AM
I see no reason not to think that the Pikers, Stabbers and Archers are not all Gobwins, just as the fighters and knights are.

I only just noticed that the K. I. S. S. are gobwins today (check out their little horns) and without that information the chart is more confusing, but it looks to me like all of the infantry listed in that strip are gobwins.

I agree. I was puzzled at first but then thought, the knights could be hobgobwins. (Bigger meaner gobwins.) And it makes a distenction between fighters. (Low level) Pikers.(mid to high level) and Stabbers (mid level) these are probably subtypes of infantry. This was further re-enforced by the stip were Hamster and Stanley are reviewing troops and they walk past the Gobwin pikers, "Very fierce."

Surprise!
2008-12-12, 02:08 AM
I see no reason not to think that the Pikers, Stabbers and Archers are not all Gobwins, just as the fighters and knights are.

I only just noticed that the K. I. S. S. are gobwins today (check out their little horns) and without that information the chart is more confusing, but it looks to me like all of the infantry listed in that strip are gobwins.

The list specifies goblin and uncroaked units already though. Those entries just say stabber, pikers, and archers. Besides where did Lord Manpower the Temporary come from?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html

Wanda say fewer then 200 living MEN

Surprise!
2008-12-12, 02:18 AM
That's another reason I think that Jack may have Stanley headed toward Charlescomm instead of GK. I suspect that Charlie doesn't have enough units at home to hold off Stanley's stack, so he's going to have to bring Archons back from GK. If he does, he won't be able to wait until after GK's turn to do it. He'll have to move more quickly, which means no alliance with Jetstone.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0128.html

Jack mentions that they are flying back to Gobwin Knob, No doubt with Vinnie and the rest hot on their heels. By a plot perspective I am betting that Commander Zamussel will rescue Ansom in the nic of time.

SeraphRainy
2008-12-12, 02:24 AM
No, ok your right Suprise. It does say living men and the warlords make sense then. But it bugs me, and Im sure others, that we just havnt seen them yet.

Also there has been some speculaition that Stanley would return next turn however, didn't he have to take two turns to get out there. Wasnt that why Jack was veiling them. (Albeti poorly.)

Surprise!
2008-12-12, 02:31 AM
No, ok your right Suprise. It does say living men and the warlords make sense then. But it bugs me, and Im sure others, that we just havnt seen them yet.

Also there has been some speculaition that Stanley would return next turn however, didn't he have to take two turns to get out there. Wasnt that why Jack was veiling them. (Albeti poorly.)

Yeah, I was wondering about that, Zamussel says that is because Stanley is unfamiliar with the territory. Which is why her units got there a turn before. Perhaps if the course was chosen by the Titans, then they sent him down the fasts way that Zamussel used.

DevilDan
2008-12-12, 02:53 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0128.html

Jack mentions that they are flying back to Gobwin Knob, No doubt with Vinnie and the rest hot on their heels. By a plot perspective I am betting that Commander Zamussel will rescue Ansom in the nic of time.

Jillian cannot, I believe, move until Transylvito's next turn; if she allies back with the RCC, this would actually push her move back to after GK at the very least.

Whispri
2008-12-12, 05:59 AM
The Uncroaked Archon... could she be hiding inside the carpet? Cleopatra style I mean. Items can resize so it could have molded around her and, well, where else could she be?

teratorn
2008-12-12, 06:24 AM
Also there has been some speculaition that Stanley would return next turn however, didn't he have to take two turns to get out there.

It depends, Jack may know the shortest way to get out of the mountains.

Whispri
2008-12-12, 06:26 AM
It depends, Jack may know the shortest way to get out of the mountains.
Maybe, but he always stayed home, it's not something he'd need to bother with.

Robak
2008-12-12, 08:05 AM
Tarfu and the forest gumps with the 3 dragons is a good example of this as well.
Just had a major *Duh* moment. Hadn't noticed that pun before. :smallredface:

SteveMB
2008-12-12, 08:18 AM
Also there has been some speculaition that Stanley would return next turn however, didn't he have to take two turns to get out there. Wasnt that why Jack was veiling them. (Albeti poorly.)

Depending on which dwagons survived, the remaining group might travel a bit faster (a group travels at the speed of its slowest member).

Also, Stanley apparently still had some move left after breaking away from the ambush. That would give him some progress back toward GK, and he might be able to close the remaining distance next turn.

Whispri
2008-12-12, 08:21 AM
Maybe, but he always stayed home, it's not something he'd need to bother with.

That said, Stanley earned his reputation leading flyers, the ambush site was within two days travel of his Capital, a side he's at war with today and has fought in the past have a concentration of airpower within a days flight of the area, plus he had that table.

It would be a major case of sloppiness on his part if he doesn't know the shortest and safest routes to his bolt hole.

JazzManJim
2008-12-12, 08:24 AM
Jack mentions that they are flying back to Gobwin Knob, No doubt with Vinnie and the rest hot on their heels. By a plot perspective I am betting that Commander Zamussel will rescue Ansom in the nic of time.

Yes, I know that.

I also know that Jack is a Foolamancer, perhaps the best that's ever been. you could be correct, but I don't know that we should divine clues from the words of an existential liar.

SpacemanSpif
2008-12-12, 10:44 AM
The list specifies goblin and uncroaked units already though. Those entries just say stabber, pikers, and archers. Besides where did Lord Manpower the Temporary come from?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html

Wanda say fewer then 200 living MEN

The entry also just says Knights, rather than Gobwin Knights. Some, if not all, of the knights are definitely gobwins, yes?

In fact, there are more stabbers, pikers, and archers than there are living men, according to the two strips in question.

If I had to guess, I'd say that those infantry are a mix of men and gobwins.

docstrange
2008-12-12, 10:56 AM
So if Charlescomm allies with Jetstone- they don't get to move or attack outside of their present location. But they get an attack of opportunity on anything hostile that comes INTO their location, which is the GK airspace.

That could include,

- zombie unipegataurs (now hostile units after the alliance switch)
- croakamancers mounted on said zombie unips: but NOT croakamancers standing on the ground looting hardware
- any uncroaked archons that happen to be floating around (and won't that be interesting?)
- a return flight of dwagons, K.I.S.S., and the Tool himself

fendrin
2008-12-12, 12:06 PM
The entry also just says Knights, rather than Gobwin Knights. Some, if not all, of the knights are definitely gobwins, yes?

In fact, there are more stabbers, pikers, and archers than there are living men, according to the two strips in question.

If I had to guess, I'd say that those infantry are a mix of men and gobwins.
Random thought: It seems that the info from StupidMeals is accurate, but not the whole picture. Perhaps those Gobwins (or just some of them) have been counted twice, once as a gobwin, once as a piker/stabber/etc.? That could explain why the total # of infantry exceeds the 'less than 200' comment that Wanda made.


So if Charlescomm allies with Jetstone...

Point of clarification: they can do all of that regardless of whether or not Ansom accepts the terms.

DevilDan
2008-12-12, 12:07 PM
It would be a major case of sloppiness on his part if he doesn't know the shortest and safest routes to his bolt hole.

The safest route isn't always the shortest route, not that I credit Stanley with being particularly cautious or conservative.

Unless I'm very wrong, I think that Jillian can make it back... during Transylvito's next turn, which takes place tomorrow.

SteveMB
2008-12-12, 12:14 PM
Point of clarification: they can do all of that regardless of whether or not Ansom accepts the terms.

Yep -- they can; they just have no reason to do so ("Ansom has given me no incentive to stop you." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html)).


Unless I'm very wrong, I think that Jillian can make it back... during Transylvito's next turn, which takes place tomorrow.

That's what I figure -- she got there in two turns with units selected for Move 26+, and may have wasted a bit of that (depending on the geometry of the situation) to confront Wanda. If her current gwiffon is comparable to her previous one (which had Move 52), she could get back in one turn if she ditches the rest of her group (which wouldn't surprise me at all).

fendrin
2008-12-12, 12:29 PM
Yep -- they can; they just have no reason to do so ("Ansom has given me no incentive to stop you." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html)).

True.

One thing they COULD do that Charlie DOES have a motivation for is to attempt to intercept the pliers before they exit the airspace zone. That could involve or lead to a confrontation with a certain croakamancer who is also currently in the airspace.

DevilDan
2008-12-12, 12:30 PM
That's what I figure -- she got there in two turns with units selected for Move 26+, and may have wasted a bit of that (depending on the geometry of the situation) to confront Wanda. If her current gwiffon is comparable to her previous one (which had Move 52), she could get back in one turn if she ditches the rest of her group (which wouldn't surprise me at all).

If she knows that Ansom is in peril or that things aren't going well for the RCC, she may decide to head back straight for GK. She does, however, have other "responsibilities." Stanley is one, and Faq is the other. She could still try to hund down Stanley, for whom she feels much hatred. And unless someone takes over Faq or someone continues to hold the chokepoint hex, it is still possible for Stanley to double back. And she feels loyalty toward Faq still, so she would need some assurance from Transylvito that they wouldn't take over the abandoned Faq cities.

MalikT
2008-12-12, 01:02 PM
If she knows that Ansom is in peril or that things aren't going well for the RCC, she may decide to head back straight for GK. She does, however, have other "responsibilities." Stanley is one, and Faq is the other. She could still try to hund down Stanley, for whom she feels much hatred. And unless someone takes over Faq or someone continues to hold the chokepoint hex, it is still possible for Stanley to double back. And she feels loyalty toward Faq still, so she would need some assurance from Transylvito that they wouldn't take over the abandoned Faq cities.

There is probably no way she could know that Ansom is in danger, she does not have a hat and probably nobody in the RCC column can send a thinkagram. Unless there is another way of long distance communication she is probably still hunting Stanley.

fendrin
2008-12-12, 01:07 PM
If she knows that Ansom is in peril or that things aren't going well for the RCC, she may decide to head back straight for GK. She does, however, have other "responsibilities." Stanley is one, and Faq is the other. She could still try to hund down Stanley, for whom she feels much hatred. And unless someone takes over Faq or someone continues to hold the chokepoint hex, it is still possible for Stanley to double back. And she feels loyalty toward Faq still, so she would need some assurance from Transylvito that they wouldn't take over the abandoned Faq cities.

On one hand, how would she know Ansom was in trouble? As far as I can tell they have no way to communicate, short of a message being relayed by Don King's thinkamancer. Even then, I don't see how either the RCC or Jillian's group could initiate that, and what are the chances that Don King would randomly contact either?

On the other hand, Jillian is not the most patient of individuals, and she may decide that she would rather head back to GK than 'waste' a lot of time searching for Stanley. Also, FAQ doesn't seem to be much of a priority for her. She'd probably object less to TV occupying it than she did to Stanley destroying it.

teratorn
2008-12-12, 01:08 PM
She could still try to hund down Stanley, for whom she feels much hatred.

She only has three gwiffons with her. Stanley left with six dwagons and at least one knight (the one engaging TVMario is seen flying with Stanley). Even if she has a few lower move gwiffons nearby, she can only hunt Stanley, or even control the choke point, if TV is willing to help her.

SteveMB
2008-12-12, 01:17 PM
On the other hand, Jillian is not the most patient of individuals, and she may decide that she would rather head back to GK than 'waste' a lot of time searching for Stanley. Also, FAQ doesn't seem to be much of a priority for her. She'd probably object less to TV occupying it than she did to Stanley destroying it.

Now that Stanley has a functioning Foolamancer and could be in any of dozens of hexes, trying to hunt him down is hopeless unless you can figure out where he's headed. Given that he exited the choke point on the wrong side to head for Faq, the logical guess is that he might head back to GK.

DevilDan
2008-12-12, 01:23 PM
On one hand, how would she know Ansom was in trouble? As far as I can tell they have no way to communicate, short of a message being relayed by Don King's thinkamancer. Even then, I don't see how either the RCC or Jillian's group could initiate that, and what are the chances that Don King would randomly contact either?

Yes, but it wouldn't surprise me if Caesar contacts Don King or Transylvito via their thinkamancer.


She only has three gwiffons with her. Stanley left with six dwagons and at least one knight (the one engaging TVMario is seen flying with Stanley). Even if she has a few lower move gwiffons nearby, she can only hunt Stanley, or even control the choke point, if TV is willing to help her.

I agree. But she could choose to remain with the Transylvito force. I was only mentioning Jillian's choices because other posters were insisting on suggesting that Jillian could show up and help to save Ansom.

Jillian clearly has little or no chance of tracking down Stanley.

Sweetie Welf
2008-12-12, 01:32 PM
Trhree gwiffons mean that she could take 2 warlords with her. But it would be still way to dangerous.

fendrin
2008-12-12, 03:09 PM
Now that Stanley has a functioning Foolamancer and could be in any of dozens of hexes, trying to hunt him down is hopeless unless you can figure out where he's headed. Given that he exited the choke point on the wrong side to head for Faq, the logical guess is that he might head back to GK.
Of course it is just as logical that he will wait veiled for her to leave so he can sneak into Faq like he originally planned.

On the other hand, Jillian is not exactly the sharpest unit. Rather than think the situation through logically she's (in my opinion) far more likely to just act impulsively. The decision to return to GK mirrors the decision to rescue Ansom from the dwagon-ring. Either she can futilely search for a stack that could be almost anywhere or she could go fight something.


Yes, but it wouldn't surprise me if Caesar contacts Don King or Transylvito via their thinkamancer.

Well, this gets back to the mystery of how Stanley contacted Maggie; can thinkamancers receive incoming 'calls' from regular units? Or did Stanley order Maggie to call him, indicating that orders can effectively be given with no discernible form of communication?

I think the latter, but only for orders coming from an overlord/ruler.
I have three reasons for this:
It is consistent with a TBS game. The player can command units at any distance instantaneously with no mechanism of communication.
The idea that anyone can contact a thinkamancer at any time from any distance doesn't seem quite right.
If Chief warlords could do it, Parson wouldn't need Maggie to relay his orders. Sure, he might be ignorant, but he's pretty smart and likely would have asked a few questions about how Stanley interrupted his 'call' with Ansom. Even if nobody knew, all he would have to do to test it is to order the troops on the walls to do a 'wave' or other similarly visible action.

If I'm right, not even Cesar could initiate contact with the Don's T-mancer.

SteveMB
2008-12-12, 03:23 PM
On the other hand, Jillian is not exactly the sharpest unit. Rather than think the situation through logically she's (in my opinion) far more likely to just act impulsively. The decision to return to GK mirrors the decision to rescue Ansom from the dwagon-ring. Either she can futilely search for a stack that could be almost anywhere or she could go fight something.

True. Vinny et al probably wouldn't try very hard to talk her out of it, because 1)they would think it through logically and realize that the only hope of catching Stanley is to guess where he's headed (and GK is a reasonable guess) and 2)if Translyvito sees the abandoned Faq cities as an opportunity for themselves, the sooner Jillian gets out of the way the better.

Godskook
2008-12-12, 04:11 PM
It is consistent with a TBS game. The player can command units at any distance instantaneously with no mechanism of communication.
The idea that anyone can contact a thinkamancer at any time from any distance doesn't seem quite right.
If Chief warlords could do it, Parson wouldn't need Maggie to relay his orders. Sure, he might be ignorant, but he's pretty smart and likely would have asked a few questions about how Stanley interrupted his 'call' with Ansom. Even if nobody knew, all he would have to do to test it is to order the troops on the walls to do a 'wave' or other similarly visible action.

1.If Stanley could command his units psychically, he'd have no need for an eyebook to contact Wanda.

2.An explanation that might make sense is that Thinkamancers are similar to psychics and can 'hear' people calling them.

3.Following my explanation, this would explain how Stanley could interupt Parson's call, why Parson couldn't do the same, and why he wouldn't think it was odd. Stanley outranks Parson. Maggie was compelled by duty to cut the connection with Parson to open one with Stanley. By this logic, any warlord can 'dial' a Thinkamancer, but the Thinkamancer has some control over answering these calls.

fendrin
2008-12-12, 04:32 PM
1.If Stanley could command his units psychically, he'd have no need for an eyebook to contact Wanda.

2.An explanation that might make sense is that Thinkamancers are similar to psychics and can 'hear' people calling them.

3.Following my explanation, this would explain how Stanley could interupt Parson's call, why Parson couldn't do the same, and why he wouldn't think it was odd. Stanley outranks Parson. Maggie was compelled by duty to cut the connection with Parson to open one with Stanley. By this logic, any warlord can 'dial' a Thinkamancer, but the Thinkamancer has some control over answering these calls.

Good points, but they don't invalidate mine. I guess we'll need to see more of these events to figure it out.

kreszantas
2008-12-12, 05:11 PM
1. Some these points could also fall under the 'Natural Thinkamancy' heading.

2. Parson has Maggie right there to issue communications (not orders that is natural to a chief warlord) to ones who DO NOT have eyebooks, think of his communication to Jack in trying to snap him out of his insanity.

3. The incoming call from Stanley the Overlord who yes out ranks Parson by duty must take that call.

Lamech
2008-12-12, 07:45 PM
Well, this gets back to the mystery of how Stanley contacted Maggie; can thinkamancers receive incoming 'calls' from regular units? Or did Stanley order Maggie to call him, indicating that orders can effectively be given with no discernible form of communication?
Wasn't Wanda able to give suggestions to Jillian with out a direct link? Thats an example of a permanent communication spell. Really bad communication, but still communication. Stanley probably has a permanent (and much, much better) communication spell set-up with Maggie. Especially since Maggie was out of juice...

fendrin
2008-12-12, 08:04 PM
2. Parson has Maggie right there to issue communications (not orders that is natural to a chief warlord) to ones who DO NOT have eyebooks, think of his communication to Jack in trying to snap him out of his insanity.

Parson had Maggie contact Wanda, even though Wanda has an eyebook.


Wasn't Wanda able to give suggestions to Jillian with out a direct link? Thats an example of a permanent communication spell. Really bad communication, but still communication. Stanley probably has a permanent (and much, much better) communication spell set-up with Maggie. Especially since Maggie was out of juice...

"You know nothing of the underpinnings of this spell!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0070.html)

Er, that is, Wanda was not communicating. It was a fire-and-forget spell.

Vreejack
2008-12-12, 08:50 PM
Is the archon that Ansom is dealing with a real one? The undead archon seems to have disappeared, and the placement of this one is suspicious. Is Maggy working some suggestion on Ansom's dented cranium to make him think he is treating with Charlie? With Sir Webinar coming on the back of a flying abomination to capture him and a very suspicious contract occupying his attention he may not be looking too closely at the archon.

DevilDan
2008-12-12, 09:35 PM
Parson had Maggie contact Wanda, even though Wanda has an eyebook.

"You know nothing of the underpinnings of this spell!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0070.html)

If an overlord can pull a "contact me immediately" call through his thinkamancer, I think it's reasonable that a chief warlord can do the same. Purely speculation on my part, but it is reasonable speculation.

I'm considering the "she knows that this is important to my side and wouldn't want to put my boops in a vice" line by Wanda. It suggests that the spell consists of instructions and generalized influence rather than of specific point-by-point orders.

Sieggy
2008-12-12, 11:21 PM
Is the archon that Ansom is dealing with a real one? The undead archon seems to have disappeared, and the placement of this one is suspicious. Is Maggy working some suggestion on Ansom's dented cranium to make him think he is treating with Charlie? With Sir Webinar coming on the back of a flying abomination to capture him and a very suspicious contract occupying his attention he may not be looking too closely at the archon.

Dunno . . . that would imply an AWFUL lot of planning on the chance that Ansom would scream for Charlies aid. But then, if the mission were specifically to take Ansom down as opposed to killing him, it might be a reasonable gambit. Had he not called out, having the ex-Archon pop up (magically disguised) and say "well, Your Highness, ready to deal?", with a contract in hand would stall him for a crucial CR or two.

Of course, if you really wanted to screw things up totally, you have a standard contract looking thing worked up that includes the RCC surrender in the fine print, and have Maggie whup the mojo on the agreement to bind it. Either Ansom reads it carefully enough to let him get zerged by the shambling horde, or agrees, much to his horror.

kreszantas
2008-12-12, 11:29 PM
Parson had Maggie contact Wanda, even though Wanda has an eyebook.

Your going to have to back that statement up with a specific fact. If your refering to the latest http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html that is inconclusive as he also needs to use the eyebook for Charlie. Due to the need to have this done same time, it would be logical to have Maggie be the medium between them Parson was merely giving audible recount of what he was watching, he made his decision and acted on it with the "New orders for Wanda" statement. A vast majority of Sizemores orders were given via eyebook, except when the INSTANT reports through Maggie were done in the tunnels. The requirement to maintain the "viewthumbscreen" for the thinkamancy to take place also puts a hinderance on it as well since Maggie DID NOT have to establish that link for Parson, she just put her hands to her temples and relaid the audible commands or gave them by natural thinkamancy.

Case in point in one the other threads Rob states that notes were passed along through the hexes thus Ansom crumples it up... Lots of things are done 'behind the panels' yet are still accomplished.

Sieggy
2008-12-12, 11:34 PM
Wanda's performance has been awesome thus far. Her attack was well organized and executed, her troops obviously knew exactly what to do.
And compare Wanda's battle command language with Jillian's. Precise, concise commands, nothing muddled. And she instantly responded to Ansom's loss of the Arkenpliers, commanding her troops to sieze their secondary target, then dove after the primary. No hesitation. That implies a whole lot more command capability than you'd normally find in a caster.

Maybe it's just all the stacked pluses, but I suspect that Wanda has some warlord in her . . . Remember, Wanda was touchy on that subject, and Parson suspected she knew more about war and such than she was letting on.

The implication is that Wanda knew Jillian back in FAQ; the question is how well? I'm beginning to wonder if Wanda and Jillian were having a relationship back in FAQ, and Wanda went out with Jillian on some merc assignments. Jillian said she wanted to take Jack with her, but never did (Banhammer isn't risking TWO of his casters, especially not his world-class Foolamancer . . .) I can seriously see Wanda having picked up a thing or two about battle and warfare.The EP from a few missions (especially if she was an active participant) might be enough to give her at least a few levels of fighter.

I'm also wondering if part of the problem Jillian was having with King Banhammer was this relationship. If Banhammer had a problem with Jillian before(mabwaa), having her involve herself with one of his casters and take her on missions (probably against his orders - 'cause girls are just like that sometimes) It is possible that Wanda engineered the downfall of Faq to free Jillian from Banhammer, and somehow Stanley managed to screw things up for her.

Winged One
2008-12-12, 11:49 PM
Wanda going on the merc work wouldn't have to be against orders; it would be a lot more efficient for her to be with Jillian's merc team than for Jillian to send the bodies of her fallen enemies back to FAQ and then back, especially since uncroaked decay.

fendrin
2008-12-13, 12:45 AM
Your going to have to back that statement up with a specific fact. If your refering to the latest http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html that is inconclusive as he also needs to use the eyebook for Charlie.

Also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0123.html) ("Get Wanda ready"). By your logic he should have contacted Wanda by eyebook because Maggie would have been busy contacting the knights.

kreszantas
2008-12-13, 01:53 AM
Also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0123.html) ("Get Wanda ready"). By your logic he should have contacted Wanda by eyebook because Maggie would have been busy contacting the knights.

Again more behind the panels stuff suited to 'Natural Thinkamancy'... same can be said for http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0083.html when Stanley recalls the dwagons. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0081.html gives the single order to Mung and the rest are in paint in the same 83, does it show Mung going to each KISS to get ready? No, but there they are.

My point is we really do not know where the "Natural" vs needing to use a thinkamancer line is. We both have valid points holding up our ends of the discussion. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html being the basis for mine.

ghost81
2008-12-13, 06:53 AM
Is the archon that Ansom is dealing with a real one? The undead archon seems to have disappeared, and the placement of this one is suspicious. Is Maggy working some suggestion on Ansom's dented cranium to make him think he is treating with Charlie? With Sir Webinar coming on the back of a flying abomination to capture him and a very suspicious contract occupying his attention he may not be looking too closely at the archon.

Much as I love this idea I don't think it's possible. If you look at panel 3 on page 64 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0070.html) Parson says to Sizemore 'And we can't cast on the enemy's turn'. To me this says that Maggie can't be messing with Ansom's mind and perceptions right now because it's RCC's turn not GK's.

Edit: Because sometimes I can't type for boop.

MattR
2008-12-13, 07:33 AM
Much as I love this idea I don't think it's possible. If you look at panel 3 on page 64 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0070.html) Parson says to Sizemore 'And we can't cast on the enemy's turn'. To me this says that Maggie can't be messing with Ansom's mind and perceptions right now because it's RCC's turn not GK's.


I'm pretty sure that statement, while probably accurate as a quote, isnt accurate regarding all magic in erfworld. If nothing else we know that prepared defenses and thinkamancy can be used during an opponents turn...

I think the archon offering terms is Charlie's not the uncroaked one though because:

a) Jack hasnt returned to GK yet (no stanley or dwagon laying the smackdown or screwing up Parson's orders)

b) Wanda is the only caster who might be able to do foolamancy and most of her power was used to raise the low level uncroaked army. Giving Wanda additional Foolamancy powers at this point seems unnessasarily complicated and is a tad unbelievable no matter how much of an uber-caster she is.

Also, i wouldnt put it past Charlie to gamble on Ansom's desperation and put a stupidly high price into this agreement, even one that might be refused. If Ansom accepts Charlie gets whatever his little stone cold gold heart desires. If Ansom refuses... well.. Parson gets more playtime to show how awesome he can be and he's close to suceeding in doing exactly what he told Charlie he would.

Whatever is in that contract is BIG, getting involved for the usual smuckers would be a waste of time for Charlie.

ghost81
2008-12-13, 10:27 AM
Well we now know it's a real Archon due to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5467430#post5467430) post.

Still want to know what all the small print of the offer is though - guess we'll find out soon enough.

fendrin
2008-12-13, 11:21 AM
Again more behind the panels stuff suited to 'Natural Thinkamancy'... same can be said for http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0083.html when Stanley recalls the dwagons. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0081.html gives the single order to Mung and the rest are in paint in the same 83, does it show Mung going to each KISS to get ready? No, but there they are.

My point is we really do not know where the "Natural" vs needing to use a thinkamancer line is. We both have valid points holding up our ends of the discussion. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html being the basis for mine.

Stanley gave the order to the guard (I don't think it's Mung) to "Gather at dawn" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0081.html). That gives the guard plenty of time to go to each knight individually, if needed. Rule of parsimony favors the guard not doing so through thinkamancy, natural or otherwise.

Stanley gives tells Maggie (or more accurately the link gestalt) to give the recall order to "all field units", including the dwagons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0078.html). No Natural Thinkamancy involved.

As for that klog, it says obeying the Tool's orders is Natural thinkamancy. Two points: obeying not receiving, and the Tool's orders, not all orders.

The only 'natural thinkamancy' communication we know of is scouting reports, as mentioned in that klog. It stands to reason that there may be others, but we shouldn't assume so.

Lamech
2008-12-13, 12:17 PM
"You know nothing of the underpinnings of this spell!"

Er, that is, Wanda was not communicating. It was a fire-and-forget spell.
I thought she gave new suggestions after Jillian was already out in the field, such as "ditch your stack", or "go save Ansom"; I don't see how Wanda could have planned for Parson's gambit. If Wanda did give new suggestions after Jillian left we have a form of really bad communication.

You may be right that all the suggestions were already in place, although I would find that difficult to do, but I'm not Parson+Sizemore+Wanda.

teratorn
2008-12-13, 01:06 PM
Still want to know what all the small print of the offer is though - guess we'll find out soon enough.

It may be an offer Jetstone can not accept.

SteveMB
2008-12-13, 01:26 PM
It may be an offer Jetstone can not accept.

I doubt that; if Charlie doesn't want to make a deal, he could simply ignore Ansom's call. (In the previous case, he couldn't just openly blow off Translyvito without damaging his reputation -- by making "an offer they can't accept" he at least diffuses the perceived responsibility for the alliance-shift exploit falling through.)