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Godskook
2008-12-10, 08:59 AM
Why is almost everyone assuming that non-GK forces can't move through different city zones of GK when it isn't their turn? Everything I've read on the subject indicates that GK functions as a single hex.

To put it another way, Charlie's Archons are free to attack the tower, dungeon, garrison, or anything else in GK that they want because units are free to move anywhere they want in a hex regardless of turn.

To put it another another* way, we know that hex walls are impenetrable by units whose turn it isn't. Is anyone really advocating that a croaked archon would stop falling at the GK airspace boundary simply because it isn't Charlie's turn?

*repetition intentional

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 09:28 AM
Why is almost everyone assuming that non-GK forces can't move through different city zones of GK when it isn't their turn? Everything I've read on the subject indicates that GK functions as a single hex.

To put it another way, Charlie's Archons are free to attack the tower, dungeon, garrison, or anything else in GK that they want because units are free to move anywhere they want in a hex regardless of turn.


We know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html) that the defenders can move between zones within GK off-turn. The fact that units can move within GK without expending Move suggests that units of any side can do so.

Looking back at the fakeout with the tunnel scouts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html), Ansom is fooled into thinking that they'd encountered "a main garrison stack" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html). That indicates that it's possible for invading units to enter via the tunnels and encounter the garrison (if not stopped by defenders in the tunnels) all in the same turn.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 11:16 AM
Looking back at the fakeout with the tunnel scouts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html), Ansom is fooled into thinking that they'd encountered "a main garrison stack" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html). That indicates that it's possible for invading units to enter via the tunnels and encounter the garrison (if not stopped by defenders in the tunnels) all in the same turn.

I'd say, just to expand on this, that he thought his units had actually gone as far as the dungeons (the underground part of the main garrison).

On the other hand, I wouldn't assume that the archons can just wander about with impunity all over the main garrison. To get to the dungeons, where Parson could decide to make his last stand, they would need to take over either the tower or the courtyard. That buys Parson some time to act.

"For purposes of attack, tower borders airspace, courtyard borders outer walls, dungeon borders tunnels."
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0129.html

Godskook
2008-12-10, 11:27 AM
On the other hand, I wouldn't assume that the archons can just wander about with impunity all over the main garrison. To get to the dungeons, where Parson could decide to make his last stand, they would need to take over either the tower or the courtyard. That buys Parson some time to act.

I agree. I only meant that there are no rules stopping Archons from moving anywhere in GK. There are definately GK troops in their way though.

pclips
2008-12-10, 11:41 AM
Okay, I know it's bad policy to explain as the narrative is going on. Maybe a sign of bad storytelling that I feel like I have to. My fault, if so. But I can't watch you guys squirm any more. Future pages will touch on some of this, but it's very, very simple.


You can only move when it is your turn.
When it is not your turn, and someone moves into the space you're on (meaning hex or city zone), then you can engage them.
Every side gets exactly one turn a day.
There is a natural turn order. When sides ally, their next turn is shared at the latest slot in the day of any of the allied sides.

On this day, Charlescomm has had their turn. The Archons ended that turn in Gobwin Knob's airspace. If they ally with Jetstone (I am not saying they will), then they do not get another turn until tomorrow, after Gobwin Knob's next turn. If they don't ally, they'll go before Gobwin Knob. Either way, until their next turn, the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.

I think the main thing that's confusing people is this:

If you own the city, you can move around in it without move cost.

That means even zone to zone, and even when it is not your turn, so the constraint does not apply to the defenders. Sorry if that's confusing, but it was more or less explained in a Klog.

I promise there is no long, complicated set of rules being made up to satisfy plot conditions. It's a simple list, and the plot will play out without breaking them, or inventing new ones.

For Book 2 and beyond, there will be a wiki for this stuff. I look forward to helping flesh it out.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 12:32 PM
You can only move when it is your turn.
When it is not your turn, and someone moves into the space you're on (meaning hex or city zone), then you can engage them.



Those two I clearly understood already.

But it is interesting to know that the freedom of movement as listed by klog only applies to those in control (those in "ownership") of a city.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 12:36 PM
Before I even begin, I assume that you actually wrote your rule-list down before you began writing the comic in earnest. Any confusions that arise are the result of either bloopers, missing explanation(a rule used before being explained), or more commonly, reader misinterpretation.

Everything you said here is explained well enough throughout the comic for me, except this:


the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.

Which essentially translates into "city zones function as hexes for all sides except the side that controls said city". I've searched the klogs, and klog 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html)and 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0129.html) are the only ones I can find that mention anything. Klog 13 doesn't mention turns, move, or anything similar. Klog 11 says "...but they're all considered part of the city, so we can deploy and redeploy units without expending move." To me, klog 11 sounds as if city zones all count as if they are only one hex, which would be contrary to what you're saying. It would also be the easiest place to make an alteration to the archives to make this rule clear, prior to GK being seiged.


Ok, moving on, now that we know that the rule is that way.
Um...So does that mean that the Archon that is dealing with Ansom is located in the wall zone, rather than the airspace zone? If she is in the Airspace, how can she get close enough to a non-flier to make a contract?

Lamech
2008-12-10, 12:43 PM
the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.
Okay this was what I think everyone was unclear on. Parson kind of implied it when he was only worried about units that took off, but we had nothing that was cut and dry.

Hey I can make more speculation now...:smallbiggrin:

dr pepper
2008-12-10, 01:17 PM
I see nothing wrong with adding new rules as the story develops, so long as it doesn't create major inconsistancies. After all, it's a story about a game first, and a game with a story second.

Sweetie Welf
2008-12-10, 01:35 PM
Hah, I knew it. Except the natural turn order, that was new.
Just something I might add: Can a commander-unit decide to move into a hex a not attack a no allied unit on his turn, but freely decide to do so late on someone else's turn?

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 01:39 PM
Hah, I knew it. Except the natural turn order, that was new.
Just something I might add: Can a commander-unit decide to move into a hex a not attack a no allied unit on his turn, but freely decide to do so late on someone else's turn?
In the battle over the lake, either side Parson warned his units not to attack Jillian's.

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 01:46 PM
Just something I might add: Can a commander-unit decide to move into a hex a not attack a no allied unit on his turn, but freely decide to do so late on someone else's turn?

I assume that "do so" refers to attacking, not moving (we know that you can't move into a different hex when it's not your turn).

So far, we haven't seen the question (voluntarily not attacking, and staying in contact when your turn ends) come up (the closest we've had to that situation is the Archons hanging around in GK airspace, but evidently airspace doesn't count as being "in contact" with the other zones of GK).

pclips
2008-12-10, 01:46 PM
If she is in the Airspace, how can she get close enough to a non-flier to make a contract?

I'll answer this one question as an example of "yes, we did think about this stuff before we started writing." And then I'll stop before I get any farther into the tar pit of explaining the rules while we are telling the story.

Do you remember when Ansom was getting word passed along through the column about the results of Parson's attack? That was not on the Coalition's turn, but physical notes were still being passed between hexes. Did we specifically show a note passed across a hex? No. The story didn't need it. Compared to showing the abortive celebrations of the Coalition's leadership corps, it's dramatically trivial.

But that's what happened. I thought about it. I knew about it. We didn't show it.

Now, if you are seriously hung up on whether or not Ansom could touch a magical button projected in the air by an Archon hovering just above the city wall, then you are not really granting us any license at all for a joke, you know? There's occasionally some humor in this comic. The EULA joke is meant to make you laugh.

But yes, okay. It is absolutely physically possible for the Archons to project an image into the air, which Ansom, standing on the wall top, can see and touch.

We are telling a story set in a whole alien universe here. We have mythologies and character histories and world mechanics backing this up, but it's the story that matters. I care ten times more about Sizemore's emotional state in the heat of battle than I do about whether or not a sourmander could spit acid across a hex boundary. (But I still know the answer.)

As this goes along, some mechanics are going to be unclear at times. Please trust that we've thought about these things to the extent needed to support the story. We're not going to pull any major cheapness in how we tell the tale, and we have not written ourselves into a corner.

In fact, the script for Book 1 is complete. It's over 100,000 words. :smalleek:

Sweetie Welf
2008-12-10, 02:00 PM
1. That are a lot of words.
2. Pity, that I can't have these 100.000 words on Xmas.
3. I think no one (that counts) thought you have written yourselves in a corner. :smallbiggrin:

Robak
2008-12-10, 02:23 PM
So, if Ansom is now on the walls and the archons can only attack units in the airspace, then all an alliance would do is delay Charlies next turn to after Parsons. The undead will swarm and capture Ansom if the archons cannot engage them.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 02:55 PM
I'll answer this one question as an example of "yes, we did think about this stuff before we started writing." And then I'll stop before I get any farther into the tar pit of explaining the rules while we are telling the story.

Thanks, thats even more information than I needed.


Do you remember when Ansom was getting word passed along through the column about the results of Parson's attack? That was not on the Coalition's turn, but physical notes were still being passed between hexes. Did we specifically show a note passed across a hex? No. The story didn't need it. Compared to showing the abortive celebrations of the Coalition's leadership corps, it's dramatically trivial.

Now, if you are seriously hung up on whether or not Ansom could touch a magical button projected in the air by an Archon hovering just above the city wall, then you are not really granting us any license at all for a joke, you know? There's occasionally some humor in this comic. The EULA joke is meant to make you laugh.

Do you remember when we tried using the batcam's to say that Vinny(or the bats) were color-blind? We tend to take everything as binding, despite knowing that some things aren't. This is our problem as readers and forum-goers. Knowing that the EULA thing is on par with the batcam, as far as canon goes, I'm moving on.


But that's what happened. I thought about it. I knew about it. We didn't show it.

We are telling a story set in a whole alien universe here. We have mythologies and character histories and world mechanics backing this up, but it's the story that matters. I care ten times more about Sizemore's emotional state in the heat of battle than I do about whether or not a sourmander could spit acid across a hex boundary. (But I still know the answer.)

First, let me clarify that I have tremendous esteem for this comic. In fact, I just described it as the most polished comic I currently read(ctrl-alt-del, 8-bit, dominic deegan, Schlock Mercenary, LFG, LICD, Girl Genius, and bobngeorge are some of my other favorites) to my last cab customer. Considering the comic list I gave, thats a prestigious title you hold in my opinion. You guys have taken the time to create a comic that is more than just a story. On top of the compelling storyline, you have extreme artwork, creative in-jokes from sound-effects to spell names to characters, yet the most unique draw, for me, is the inclusion of coherent and binding game mechanics.

Second, I'll admit, I thought it was possible that you missed that. However, I wasn't intending to make it sound as if that was the only way we could arrive at this. Frankly, I still find it odd that two units can interact physically and still be considered to be in different 'zones' which prevents them from attacking each other. As of this post, I've stopped seeking answers to that and have resigned myself to just accepting it as it is what it is.

Third, for myself, I would love to get my hands that info about attacks crossing hex borders or not.

Fourth, as a general rule, I tend only to care about a comic as much as I think its creator does. I wouldn't bother e-mailing bobngeorge over a perceived plothole. That comic opened and filled so many of those, I would've been exhausted reporting them all. You have taken the time to make rules for this comic's world, and to make them incredibly consistent. Thus, when I see what appears to me to be an inconsistency of the rules in the comic, I'm more concerned because I believe that consistency of these rules are important to you*. In this case, I was apparently not understanding the rules.


As this goes along, some mechanics are going to be unclear at times. Please trust that we've thought about these things to the extent needed to support the story. We're not going to pull any major cheapness in how we tell the tale, and we have not written ourselves into a corner.

Before I even begin, I assume that you actually wrote your rule-list down before you began writing the comic in earnest.

dr pepper
2008-12-10, 03:37 PM
Well said, pclips.

As a gm with a long term homebrew world, i don't feel the need to explain every detail to my players, but if they ask me, i either already know the answer or i just put myself there for a moment and realize what the answer is. I assume it's the same for any world creator.

MirEgal
2008-12-10, 03:44 PM
First, let me clarify that I have tremendous esteem for this comic. In fact, I just described it as the most polished comic I currently read(ctrl-alt-del, 8-bit, dominic deegan, Schlock Mercenary, LFG, LICD, Girl Genius, and bobngeorge are some of my other favorites) to my last cab customer. Considering the comic list I gave, thats a prestigious title you hold in my opinion.

Reads like As a proven expert on webcomics, I... ;)

But yes, I have to agree. I remember when I saw the first page. I looked at it and thought: meh, another fantasy webcomic. Boring.

After maybe 20 pages, Erfworld got me. It's like a drug. Whenever a new page is uploaded, I read each panel trice to enjoy it a bit longer. When I'm done with the page I am feeling a little bit down knowing that I will have to wait for quite a long time for the next page.

This webcomic stands out. It isn't the artwork. It isn't the jokes. It isn't the story. It is the combination. It is how these different parts interact. The story is well written and interesting and using the artwork in a quite unique way. Also, I have always been a fan of masterminds (anyone remember Thrawn?).

And I have to add that this was the only thing which maybe wasn't explained that well within the art and the story. Everything else has been reasonable and explained or foreshaded. At least that's my point of view.

I hope that we will be able to read a little bit about the artist once the first book is available. Webcomics with such a quality are rare (in fact, this is the first one I know of).

I am sorry, I just needed to say this. After reading the last page, the buildup of Ansoms destruction is ingenious. The EULA-joke reminded me of a classical pact with the devil, created out of despair.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 03:53 PM
Reads like As a proven expert on webcomics, I... ;)

Sir, I hope you are joking. I only make that list because calling a comic the 'best' only has a meaning if we know what comics it is being compared with. Hence, the list is only there explain my compliment, not any of my other statements.

MirEgal
2008-12-10, 04:22 PM
Sir, I hope you are joking. I only make that list because calling a comic the 'best' only has a meaning if we know what comics it is being compared with. Hence, the list is only there explain my compliment, not any of my other statements.

Of course I am joking. I fully agree to your post. :smallsmile:

SteveMB
2008-12-10, 05:07 PM
So, if Ansom is now on the walls and the archons can only attack units in the airspace, then all an alliance would do is delay Charlies next turn to after Parsons. The undead will swarm and capture Ansom if the archons cannot engage them.

Well, we know that Ansom could engage the units on the city walls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0131.html) while flying. Evidently units on the outer walls can be attacked from airspace (and vice versa if some of the ground units have archery attacks that can reach out and touch air units -- note that Ansom's carpet has a few arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html) sticking in it).

Judging from what we saw just before the battle over the lake, either side (whether on-turn or off-turn) can initiate combat when in contact -- the GK units could have attacked except that the warlords held them back on Parson's orders, and eventually Jillian did initiate the fight. Being on-turn is necessary to move into a different location, and thus gives your side control over coming into contact with enemy units in the first place.

kreszantas
2008-12-10, 06:29 PM
Okay, I know it's bad policy to explain as the narrative is going on. Maybe a sign of bad storytelling that I feel like I have to. My fault, if so. But I can't watch you guys squirm any more. Future pages will touch on some of this, but it's very, very simple.

On this day, Charlescomm has had their turn. The Archons ended that turn in Gobwin Knob's airspace. If they ally with Jetstone (I am not saying they will), then they do not get another turn until tomorrow, after Gobwin Knob's next turn. If they don't ally, they'll go before Gobwin Knob. Either way, until their next turn, the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.

I think the main thing that's confusing people is this:


Thank you Rob, however my main disconnect was not knowing what the turn order had become once the alliance broke the transylvito and charlescomm into their own factions again (verse the as the Erf Turns order) This should had been obvious with the why has our turn not started yet in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html. I clearly understood all the other principles laid out in the Klog's *however not everyone READ & ATTEMPTED to understand them*. Just was not totally certain my conclusion was correct.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 07:01 PM
*however not everyone READ & ATTEMPTED to understand them*.

*twitch*

The only people that posted in this thread before PClips corrected us are myself, SteveMB, and DevilDan. I can only assume some of us are among those you refer to. Anyone who reads this forum for very long must quickly come to the conclusion that SteveMB and DevilDan are careful and diligent readers of the comic, and well knowledgeable of its workings, for readers. I don't think you're refering to SteveMB because he doesn't post anything explicitly contrary to PClips. DevilDan and I had the same disconnect, and he definitely 'reads' and 'attempts' to understand the klogs. That we stand in the same boat on this one is all the defence I need on the subject.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 07:16 PM
The fact that the archons can only hit units in the airspace explains why Parson only worried about an encounter with Charlescomm forces until he was preparing to sortie Wanda's flying stack.

I can only add that I am thankful to anyone who corrects my mistakes and misapprehensions in whatever fashion he or she sees fit.

Limos
2008-12-10, 07:46 PM
For people who are saying that the alliance would have no benifit for Ansom, Where are Wanda's Uncroaked at the moment?

That's right, the Uncroaked are currently in the Airspace, with the Archons. Ansom might not be able to fend off normal uncroaked with impunity, but he can still get out of there if Webinar and his uncroaked fellows don't capture him.

If he accepts the contract before the Uncroaked land then the Archons will fry them and save Ansom.

Kreistor
2008-12-10, 08:14 PM
Don't forget that Ansoom was carving a passage for the siege. Charlescomm only needs to guard him until the siege moves into the hex with Ansom.

Also, don't forget that the Archons are casters. They may have some rticks up their sleeves that could deal with any of Hamster's forces trying to move into the hex with Ansom. The rules for defending airspace may not apply to spells. (69. The Archons could choose how much power they used when attacking the dwagons, and further the spells had range, which may be all they need to massacre ground forces with impunity.)

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 09:55 PM
The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.

I think that it has now been made clear that the archons can only engage in combat with units in GK's airspace. Presumably they can do something to either help the siege or to protect Ansom. But they cannot, I believe, retake the spot that Ansom was attempting to hold on the wall. This means that the RCC will now find it much harder to breach the outer walls.

And I don't think Ansom is in any condition to hold his spot again even if he recovers his "mount" and procures a weapon.

Limos
2008-12-10, 10:20 PM
The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.

I think that it has now been made clear that the archons can only engage in combat with units in GK's airspace. Presumably they can do something to either help the siege or to protect Ansom. But they cannot, I believe, retake the spot that Ansom was attempting to hold on the wall. This means that the RCC will now find it much harder to breach the outer walls.

And I don't think Ansom is in any condition to hold his spot again even if he recovers his "mount" and procures a weapon.


Right now the immediate danger to Ansom are the Uncroaked Webinar and company currently hurtling towards him from GK airspace. The archons are currently in the Airspace and thus can attack other units in the airspace with Impunity.

I take it to be similar to the alliance system from assorted RTS's like Warcraft and Starcraft. Except in this case being unaligned simply makes you neutral to all other units, rather than hostile. If the alliance system works like that, then as soon as they ally with Jetstone the GK forces will become enemies and the Archons will be free to engage them.

They aren't moving anywhere, or attacking something, they are simply fighting within a single Hex against enemies, which we know people can do on other people's turn.

The only time enemies within a hex didn't attack one another is when they were being led by the uncroaked warlords, which I believe were under the control of Wanda, or one of the other casters. They didn't have any initiative of their own and wouldn't do anything until ordered.

It doesn't even matter if the archons aren't "officially" allied with Jetstone until the next day. Once Ansom has agreed Charlie will just tell the Archons to attack the GK uncroaked in the airspace and thus save Ansom.

Godskook
2008-12-10, 10:33 PM
The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.

I might've missed it, but I didn't get that from the Author's post. As I understood it, the Archons have had a turn today, and that when that turn ended, their 'move' stat was set to zero*. This isn't changed until the Archons' turn tomorrow, which may or may not be on RCC's turn or on Charlie's natural turn. From all that, I got that the Alliance can form now, but the Archons can't move on RCC's turn until tomorrow, if so chosen.


*Not meant to be the actual mechanic, just an effectively similar one for the sake of explaining my point.

Lamech
2008-12-10, 10:38 PM
The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.

I think that it has now been made clear that the archons can only engage in combat with units in GK's airspace. Presumably they can do something to either help the siege or to protect Ansom. But they cannot, I believe, retake the spot that Ansom was attempting to hold on the wall. This means that the RCC will now find it much harder to breach the outer walls.

And I don't think Ansom is in any condition to hold his spot again even if he recovers his "mount" and procures a weapon.
That weak point, notice how the undead have not filled it in yet? If we can go by that those undead are not moving. Thats a weak point until someone gives them orders. So now its a race, if Ansom sells his soul/kingdom/treasury/Parson before the fliers land he will have some time. Then if the wall is breached before the undead re-swarm, he may get rescued...
or die; one of the two.

But, if the fliers land he gets captured; if he gets swarmed, either Wanda or the swarm will break/capture him.

VariaVespasa
2008-12-10, 11:22 PM
Wanda's stack can fly. Do we know if a unit that can fly can ONLY move by flying, or can they just walk instead (perhaps at a lower rate), if they happen to feel like it? Can her stack land, capture Ansom and then just walk down the ramps off the walls thus avoiding the Archons this turn? And can they move a prisoner captured this turn on the enemy turn? I would think they can, but its a bit of an unusual circumstance so I'm wondering if we have any info on that one way or the other?

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-12-10, 11:23 PM
Well, we know that Ansom could engage the units on the city walls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0131.html) while flying.
How far above the wall before you wind up in the "Airspace" zone? There's bound to be some level of clearance, and he's really only flying just above the enemies' heads.

DevilDan
2008-12-10, 11:48 PM
It doesn't even matter if the archons aren't "officially" allied with Jetstone until the next day. Once Ansom has agreed Charlie will just tell the Archons to attack the GK uncroaked in the airspace and thus save Ansom.

They can protect Ansom only from the flying undead, I believe.


That weak point, notice how the undead have not filled it in yet? If we can go by that those undead are not moving.

We've gotten into trouble before for assuming that what is shown in a panel will stay the same for even a few seconds.


Wanda's stack can fly. Do we know if a unit that can fly can ONLY move by flying, or can they just walk instead (perhaps at a lower rate), if they happen to feel like it?

We've seen Vinnie standing on the ground and walking, I believe. If archons could only "fly" by game terms (what I am asking is whether they can be considered to be "on the ground" even if they're floating a few inches above it), then how could they attack units officially outside the "airspace" area, such as inside the main garrison?

kreszantas
2008-12-11, 12:25 AM
With the speech bubble in the way this is closest to having the Archons on the ground I could find http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html and from where Charlie first contacted them, but at that distance anything can be made to look on the ground.

I believe it is a unit classification that limits it not whether or not it can be on or off the ground the same as Bogroll has 0 move and is limited to GK due to his Garrison classification, there must or is a mechanic that is not visible within a "plot/story" that would explain every units abilities. Using http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html as the basis, due to Parson saying there is "probably a million more I don't know about yet"

Let's sit back and read the story first then put in the pieces of the puzzle as we get them. I find myself going back and reading several strips in the past and the klogs to get a better understanding of the mechanics. I am a gamer first / story interested second in general terms, however Erfworld has actually changed my order thinking to make the mechanic(s) we see and read fit into the "plot/story" principle.

VariaVespasa
2008-12-11, 12:09 PM
How far above the wall before you wind up in the "Airspace" zone? There's bound to be some level of clearance, and he's really only flying just above the enemies' heads.

I dont think we know, exactly, but I get the impression that its not far and is sorta variable. I think it generally defaults to at least 20-30 feet (beyond things like spidew spitting range, forinstance), and more usually 200+ feet, but *can* be almost ground level for at least brief moments, as in the archon currently offering Ansom the contract to sign. But I think its mainly a metaphysical label- you declare yourself to be in the ground zone or the airspace zone (maybe expending some move to change zones?) and you are, and every other unit can see which zone youre in, even if we, with non-unit vision, cant always tell for sure in some cases.

Lamech
2008-12-11, 12:21 PM
We've gotten into trouble before for assuming that what is shown in a panel will stay the same for even a few seconds.
I looked at both this comic and the one before it, but I didn't look closely. I am in fact wrong; numerous undead have moved from the back of the wall to the front. The undead do have movement. It does remain to be seen if that includes filling up the gap, or swarming Ansom. If either happen the walls will not be breached for quite some time and Ansom will be in trouble.

Crod
2008-12-11, 04:12 PM
Some thoughts, correct me if you think it's wrong.

The uncroaked on the wall must attack Ansom as they are unled and he's in their zone. The Archons cannot help him there, because they are in another zone (although hovering very near him). But, maybe they can pick him up if he manages to get into their zone. Theoretically just by jumping up?

On another issue. Did Ansom actually spend move to get attacked in the airspace, or did he get attacked really high up flying, but still technically in the wall zone? Does falling between zones cost move? Okay, I'm stretching it on purpose, but it will matter regarding to how much the Archons can help him.

I'm finding myself really looking forward to each new update. It's not just a comic, it's a whole game system that we are slowly learning, just like Parson is. And I think that's what's making it so unique and great.

DevilDan
2008-12-11, 04:37 PM
The uncroaked on the wall must attack Ansom as they are unled and he's in their zone. The Archons cannot help him there, because they are in another zone (although hovering very near him). But, maybe they can pick him up if he manages to get into their zone. Theoretically just by jumping up?

I've been considering similar scenarios myself, as this seems the only way in which the archons can directly protect Ansom.

Now, what if Charlie's remit allows him to negotiate a profitable ceasefire or other sort of deal with Parson? After all, Parson would have to jump at a deal that would save GK (putting it under archon protection? Or could Charlie somehow now have the authority to call off the RCC?) from both the RCC and Charlescomm.

dr pepper
2008-12-11, 07:09 PM
Charlie's previous offer to Parson to jump into the net implies that you can place yourself in airspace, at least temporarily, even if you aren't a flier.

Godskook
2008-12-11, 07:21 PM
Charlie's previous offer to Parson to jump into the net implies that you can place yourself in airspace, at least temporarily, even if you aren't a flier.

That was on Charlie's turn. Those Archons could've gone inside the tower and attempted to grab Parson by force if they wanted.

Fighteer
2008-12-23, 11:04 AM
That was on Charlie's turn. Those Archons could've gone inside the tower and attempted to grab Parson by force if they wanted.
Parson can also move between city zones when it is not his turn, as his side is in control of GK.

It seems to me that a flying unit is automatically in the airspace zone as long as it is not on the ground, and such can be attacked by other fliers (or by archers) regardless of whose turn it is. On its turn, a flier can choose to engage units on the walls or in the tower but is still considered to be in the airspace unless it lands.

I'm not entirely clear on the rules governing melee vs. ranged weapons in this situation, but it makes sense that a flying unit with ranged attacks could engage melee units on the walls with impunity, only being subject to ranged fire (archers) in return, but a melee unit like Ansom has to get close enough to be vulnerable to counterattack.

As an aside, I love how strong the underlying world mechanics are in this comic. Besides creating a great deal of food for debate, this contributes to suspension of disbelief by allowing the story to proceed without tripping over logical inconsistencies.

Kreistor
2008-12-23, 07:59 PM
It seems to me that a flying unit is automatically in the airspace zone as long as it is not on the ground, and such can be attacked by other fliers (or by archers) regardless of whose turn it is.

I don't think there's evidence for this yet. Units with a warlord can choose to defend when another unit of a different side enters the hex, this much is certain. The archers got their hitsies on the dragons when they moved in.

However, we do not have evidence that a unit can arbitrarily choose to attack on a third party's turn. Wanda goes to defend against Ansom on Ansom's turn.

Further, Wanda entered airspace from Tower, the only possible transfer point. Most people think that this is in the same hex, so for the moment assume the two zones are. Airspace can attack Tower. But Parson did not warn Charlie that units were coming into Tower, but into Airspace. The Archons could not attack the new units in Tower. Because it was Ansom's turn? Or because attacking into a different zone requires Move? If the latter, Ansom is no longer in Airspace: he's in Outer Wall which Charlie does not occupy, and Ansom doesn't own yet. Its only free movement for GK ATM. That means the Archons cannot attack Wanda's uncoraked, if they enter Outer Walls, since Wanda orders, "Land, and engage." Oute wall borders courtyard, so they'll take Ansom back that way, not through Airspace where Charlie could interfere.

This question may be answered soon. If Ansom signs Charlie up, the Archons will be in the hex, but not yet allied, since that seems to occur at the end of a turn. If the Archons attack the uncroaked engaging Ansom before they land, then you're right. But if they cannot stop the uncroaked, because they passed on defending the hex already, then you're wrong.

DevilDan
2008-12-24, 12:52 PM
However, we do not have evidence that a unit can arbitrarily choose to attack on a third party's turn. Wanda goes to defend against Ansom on Ansom's turn.

Except for the fact that Parson was very worried that Charlie would attack Wanda's wing when she went out to take down Ansom during the RCC's turn.


Further, Wanda entered airspace from Tower, the only possible transfer point. Most people think that this is in the same hex, so for the moment assume the two zones are. Airspace can attack Tower.

One would assume, however, that Wanda could go through the courtyard and then into the airspace, which is where she would then be exposed to attacks from the archons. I also don't think that there's much question that the airspace is not the same as the tower, which is part of the main garrison. Units can only move from one zone or hex to another unless they have move and it's their turn or in the case of units defending a city.

I'm pretty sure that it's been said that alliances become effective when a new day begins. Whether Ansom signs or not, the archons cannot move out of GK's airspace and into a different area of GK, whether it be outer wall, courtyard, or tower.

Godskook
2008-12-24, 01:16 PM
However, we do not have evidence that a unit can arbitrarily choose to attack on a third party's turn. Wanda goes to defend against Ansom on Ansom's turn.

There is no logical difference between doing choosing to do something on a second party's turn and on a third party's turn. There is a practical difference, in that I'd imagine its rather rare for a unit to have an opportunity to do something on a third party's turn. However, the Archon's have that opportunity, and they can use it, if someone from WAF is unfortunate enough to be in the airspace when Ansom signs the agreement.

Kreistor
2008-12-24, 01:31 PM
Except for the fact that Parson was very worried that Charlie would attack Wanda's wing when she went out to take down Ansom during the RCC's turn.

This would be defensive against Wanda's attack. Wanda is entering their zone (airspace), so they would be permitted to defend it against Wanda's attack. there's no inconsistency here. It's not that Wanda is in their airspace, it's that Wanda is moving into enemy occupied terrain which is, by definition, an attack. The Archons are not attacking Wanda, they are defending against Wanda's attack.

Side Note: the Archons, since they do not attack her automatically, must be Commanders at minimum, which since they can cast only makes sense. All casters are Commanders and can lead stacks.

The exceptional thing going on here is that Wanda can move into enemy occupied territory during Ansom's turn. She is moving to reinforce the Outer Wall, so maybe that's permitted, but moving through Airspace is the odd part. It is unnecessary. Ansom is attacking the Outer Wall with melee (not ranged, which might have put him in Airspace), even though he is on the carpet, so he can be attacked from Outer Wall. Wanda is in Tower, and can move freely through the Garrison to Courtyard, and from there to Outer Wall. Move cost remains 0, since all are part of City. There might be a modifier for height, if Wanda attacks down onto Ansom from Airspace, but that's the only mechanical thing I can think of to require Wanda to move through Airspace.

I think Parson may have wanted to test Charlie, and that's why he chose the airspace route. If he can't rely on Charlie to play the game, then he really has no hope whatsoever.

DevilDan
2008-12-24, 02:30 PM
This would be defensive against Wanda's attack. Wanda is entering their zone (airspace), so they would be permitted to defend it against Wanda's attack. there's no inconsistency here. It's not that Wanda is in their airspace, it's that Wanda is moving into enemy occupied terrain which is, by definition, an attack. The Archons are not attacking Wanda, they are defending against Wanda's attack.

So just sharing a hex/zone is a de facto attack? Fine by me, since it doesn't affect what I wrote, that a unit can attack other units so long as they're all in the same hex, regardless of whose turn it is.


Side Note: the Archons, since they do not attack her automatically, must be Commanders at minimum, which since they can cast only makes sense. All casters are Commanders and can lead stacks.

I've speculated that the arkendish allows Charlie to command units from afar, acting as a commander. The simpler explanation is what you suggest; I present another possibility. I would also add that it is also possible that only some of the archons are commanders--I like to consider multiple possibilities.


The exceptional thing going on here is that Wanda can move into enemy occupied territory during Ansom's turn. She is moving to reinforce the Outer Wall, so maybe that's permitted, but moving through Airspace is the odd part. It is unnecessary. Ansom is attacking the Outer Wall with melee (not ranged, which might have put him in Airspace), even though he is on the carpet, so he can be attacked from Outer Wall. Wanda is in Tower, and can move freely through the Garrison to Courtyard, and from there to Outer Wall. Move cost remains 0, since all are part of City. There might be a modifier for height, if Wanda attacks down onto Ansom from Airspace, but that's the only mechanical thing I can think of to require Wanda to move through Airspace.

It may be "enemy-occupied territory" [hyphen added by me], but it is still part of GK.

But time was of the essence: defending units don't require "move," but it still takes time, time that Ansom was buying the RCC siege units that had already started to make dents into the wall. Plus, Wanda may have wanted to capitalize on their flight, on what may have been a sneak or diving attack, perhaps something similar to the tactics/attack used by Jillian when attacking the twoll and three uncroaked earlier in the story.


I think Parson may have wanted to test Charlie, and that's why he chose the airspace route. If he can't rely on Charlie to play the game, then he really has no hope whatsoever.

That does not seem unreasonable, but remember that Charlie only agreed to refrain from attacking GK that one day. Parson knows that he can only, at best, trust Charlie to act in his self-interest--with the added caveat that Parson is not going to assume that Charlie's agenda is necessarily as simple as he makes it out to be.

Walpurgisborn
2008-12-26, 10:48 AM
*twitch*

The only people that posted in this thread before PClips corrected us are myself, SteveMB, and DevilDan. I can only assume some of us are among those you refer to. Anyone who reads this forum for very long must quickly come to the conclusion that SteveMB and DevilDan are careful and diligent readers of the comic, and well knowledgeable of its workings, for readers. I don't think you're refering to SteveMB because he doesn't post anything explicitly contrary to PClips. DevilDan and I had the same disconnect, and he definitely 'reads' and 'attempts' to understand the klogs. That we stand in the same boat on this one is all the defence I need on the subject.

I believe there was another thread that touched briefly on turn order. I mention that because I (and others) mentioned last turning members turn sets the turn order of the alliance. Turn.