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zerombr
2008-12-11, 06:46 PM
I'm curious, what are your favorite broken feats from Dragon, that only the most reckless or obtuse DM would let you get away with.

My favorite two are

Improved Combat Reflexes - lets you make a two AoOs against a foe that provokes once, the second one at a -5

Greater Combat Reflexes - lets you make three AoOs against a foe that provokes once, the second is at -5, and the third is at -10.

these two are SO exploitable with Rolibar's gambit/Karmic Strike, and even more so factoring in Double Hit....insanity

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 06:47 PM
I'm a fan of Customize Domain.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-11, 06:47 PM
Chicken Infested :smallcool:

zerombr
2008-12-11, 06:49 PM
care to list their descriptions, to those unenlightened?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 06:51 PM
Customize Domain lets you remove spells from one of your domains and replace them with equally-leveled spells off of any list that are thematically appropriate. It's an interesting feat, but it can also be horrendously broken.

Saph
2008-12-11, 07:07 PM
Keen Intellect was a feat that let you use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom one for Will saves and a few skills. There's also Faerie Mysteries Initiate - I think this was supposed to add your Int bonus to your HP but due to some bad writing, ended up sounding like 'use Int instead of Con for HP every level'. Both are munchkin magnets.

And then there's Easy Metamagic, which lets you reduce the level adjust of a metamagic feat. As a general rule, anything that allows you to get metamagic without paying the full price for it has enormous abuse potential.

- Saph

Gorbash
2008-12-11, 07:18 PM
Keen Intellect was a feat that let you use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom one for Will saves and a few skills.

I want that one. Which Dragon is it from?

afroakuma
2008-12-11, 07:20 PM
A player wanted to use Faerie Mysteries Initiate in my game. That was a no.

Saph
2008-12-11, 07:26 PM
I want that one. Which Dragon is it from?

Can't remember. I think it was suppposed to be a Kitsuki family ability from the Legend of the Five Rings Rokugan setting.

- Saph

zerombr
2008-12-11, 07:28 PM
Isn't there a splatbook feat called Mind over Matter, that does the int bonus to hp?


and you get +1 hp for every metamagic feat you learn

Blood_Lord
2008-12-11, 07:29 PM
Keen Intellect was a feat that let you use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom one for Will saves and a few skills. There's also Faerie Mysteries Initiate - I think this was supposed to add your Int bonus to your HP but due to some bad writing, ended up sounding like 'use Int instead of Con for HP every level'. Both are munchkin magnets.

1) Keen Intellect also uses Int for several previously Wis based skills.

2) I'm pretty sure that replacing Con with Int is exactly what FMI was intended to do. Since the actual wording is: "Use your Int bonus in place of your Con bonus to calculate HP."

Saph
2008-12-11, 07:33 PM
2) I'm pretty sure that replacing Con with Int is exactly what FMI was intended to do. Since the actual wording is: "Use your Int bonus in place of your Con bonus to calculate HP."

Yes, but that's so obviously broken that you need a further explanation. My guess is that they meant it to be like the old 3.0 Mind over Matter feat, where it replaced Con with Int for level 1 only, but someone didn't get the memo.

Edit: Oh, and it's apparently a Greyhawk regional feat. Well, that gives a second reason to say no to it, like you need one. :P

- Saph

Kurald Galain
2008-12-11, 07:41 PM
A player wanted to use Faerie Mysteries Initiate in my game. That was a no.

Interestingly, this one and a few others are extremely frequent suggestions in any character creation thread, with the apparent implication that they are commonly allowed in a game (which I'm reasonably certain they're not, for a variety of reasons).

Coplantor
2008-12-11, 08:09 PM
A fellow player's character has Fearie Mysteries as a feat. The condition the DM put was that she should take it as her first level feat, but it will take her from one to three character levels to find another person to perform the ritual with.

Gorbash
2008-12-11, 08:12 PM
What does Faerie Mysteries Initiate do? Except from sounding exquisitely girly.

Keen Intellect is from Dragon #318. In addition to letting you use Int for Will saves it also let's you do the same for Heal, Spot, Sense Motive and Survival.

Coplantor
2008-12-11, 08:13 PM
FMI ,eakes you use your int bonus instea of your con bonus to calculate Hp

Ponce
2008-12-11, 08:13 PM
I'd feel the need to take a shower if I made serious use of Easy Metamagic.

KKL
2008-12-11, 08:15 PM
I really like the feat that replaces one of your casting stats with another stat, only because I find the idea of casting magic with your Dexterity to be awesome.

Breakdancing for magic? Sign me up.

NEO|Phyte
2008-12-11, 08:16 PM
What does Faerie Mysteries Initiate do? Except from sounding exquisitely girly.

It has a few ritual things you can do for various benefits, one of which is an, uh, "act" with another person with the feat that lets you use Int rather than Con for HP.

Coplantor
2008-12-11, 08:18 PM
I really like the feat that replaces one of your casting stats with another stat, only because I find the idea of casting magic with your Dexterity to be awesome.

Breakdancing for magic? Sign me up.

Wich feat allows you to do that?

Blood_Lord
2008-12-11, 09:03 PM
Yes, but that's so obviously broken that you need a further explanation. My guess is that they meant it to be like the old 3.0 Mind over Matter feat, where it replaced Con with Int for level 1 only, but someone didn't get the memo.

Edit: Oh, and it's apparently a Greyhawk regional feat. Well, that gives a second reason to say no to it, like you need one. :P

- Saph

I'm sorry, how is replacing one stat with another broken? You don't need a further explanation. It's called:

Hey, Elven Wizards have Con penalties and that sucks because con is needed by everyone, let's give them a feat that changes it to Int.

And then they did, that was their intention, you don't need further explanation, they already had the old Mind Over Matter feat, so if they had wanted it to be like that they could have.

Which is more likely: A huge error, somebody had no idea what they were writing.

WotC decided to give Wizards a super cool option to reward them for high Int because they were under some mistaken impression that Wizards had low HP and that mattered.

The only complaint you have is: "It makes Wizards have too much HP." Which is precisely the point, it's supposed to give them more HP.

I mean, toughness is better then Mind over Matter in most cases. Some feats aren't balanced on Weapon Focus. They are balanced on Quicken Spell or Shocktrooper.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-11, 09:15 PM
So, a Wizard who takes Keen Intellect and Faerie Mysteries Initiate doesn't need Con (because of FMI), doesn't need Wis (Because of Keen Intellect) and doesn't need Cha (because he's not the face). He needs Dex (AC, reflex, Initiative), Str (for ranged touch only, really). Say, isn't there a feat that lets you use Int for some Dex things?

Coplantor
2008-12-11, 09:18 PM
insightfull reflexes allows you to use int rether than dex to calculate your reflex saves. And str is not used on ranged touch attacks, dex is for that.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 09:20 PM
So, a Wizard who takes Keen Intellect and Faerie Mysteries Initiate doesn't need Con (because of FMI), doesn't need Wis (Because of Keen Intellect) and doesn't need Cha (because he's not the face). He needs Dex (AC, reflex, Initiative), Str (for ranged touch only, really). Say, isn't there a feat that lets you use Int for some Dex things?

Ranged touches use Dex, not Str.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-11, 09:21 PM
Ranged touches use Dex, not Str.

Oh, that's right! So, our Wizard only needs Dex and Int, eh?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 09:23 PM
Oh, that's right! So, our Wizard only needs Dex and Int, eh?

Pretty much, yeah.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-12-11, 09:25 PM
I'm sorry, how is replacing one stat with another broken? You don't need a further explanation. It's called:
Hey, Elven Wizards have Con penalties and that sucks because con is needed by everyone, let's give them a feat that changes it to Int.
A wizard isn't going to have more than +5 modifier to constitution, even with a bonus item. That gives +100 HP.
The same wizard is going to have a +12 modifier to intelligence. That's +240 HP.

Effectively, Faerie Mysteries Initiate means +140 HP for wizards plus no longer needing to pay 36.000 GP for constitution boost item. Does the +140 HP and 36.000 GP for a single feat seem balanced to you?

Coplantor
2008-12-11, 09:27 PM
With the right feats, wizards are so SAD.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-11, 09:30 PM
A wizard isn't going to have more than +5 modifier to constitution, even with a bonus item. That gives +100 HP.
The same wizard is going to have a +12 modifier to intelligence. That's +240 HP.

Effectively, Faerie Mysteries Initiate means +140 HP for wizards plus no longer needing to pay 36.000 GP for constitution boost item. Does the +140 HP and 36.000 GP for a single feat seem balanced to you?

I dunno. Why don't you do a similar cost comparison to the potential benefits of, say, Power Attack?

SurlySeraph
2008-12-11, 09:33 PM
I really like the feat that replaces one of your casting stats with another stat, only because I find the idea of casting magic with your Dexterity to be awesome.

Breakdancing for magic? Sign me up.

If that's an actual feat, I now have an excellent character concept to apply it. In two words: Barbarian Batman. In more words: an orc who casts spells by hitting reality with his axe so hard that it conforms to his will.

Coplantor
2008-12-11, 09:35 PM
I dunno. Why don't you do a similar cost comparison to the potential benefits of, say, Power Attack?

Let's not forget about leap attack and things like monkey grip and powerfull build.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-11, 09:36 PM
With the right feats, wizards are so SAD.

There are actually a lot of Feats like that out in the splatbooks. I ran across one in Complete Divine that allowed a character to use their CHA instead of WIS bonus on Will saves.

Our party Paladin took it, allowing her to use double her CHA modifier on Will saves. :smalltongue:

Then there's the skill substitution feats. The bard feat that lets them use Perform instead of Concentration, for example.

Arbitrarity
2008-12-11, 09:36 PM
Again then...

The power of Muscle Mystery (http://www.ifanboy.com/images/ifanboy/flex_mentallo1of4_-_05.jpg) then?

Coplantor
2008-12-11, 09:39 PM
There are actually a lot of Feats like that out in the splatbooks. I ran across one in Complete Divine that allowed a character to use their CHA instead of WIS bonus on Will saves.

Our party Paladin took it, allowing her to use double her CHA modifier on Will saves. :smalltongue:

Then there's the skill substitution feats. The bard feat that lets them use Perform instead of Concentration, for example.

I think that feat was force of personality, I know it was on Complete Adventurer, I never checked the feats of complete divine, I still have to gt that book.
About all this, I'm thinking about the potential of all the int using feats for a factotum, that is, of course, if the player is willing to sacrifice some fonts of inspiration

Ascension
2008-12-11, 09:59 PM
I love Force of Personality because I love RPing high-CHA, low-WIS characters, and FoP makes it possible to dump Wis without suffering too much mechanically. I love completely stupid Indy Ploys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndyPloy), especially ones that rely on heavy use of the Bluff skill.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-12-11, 10:10 PM
I dunno. Why don't you do a similar cost comparison to the potential benefits of, say, Power Attack?
Power Attack on its own is an average feat. A 20th level fighter or Barbarian deals an average of 35 points of damage per attack and hits (on average) 50% of the time. With four attacks, that's an average of 70 points of damage. By taking a -5 penalty with a 2H weapon he gets +10 to damage but -5 to attack, meaning he hits 25% of the time. That's an average of 45 points of damage-a reduction.
Against enemies with DR 20, this changes to 30 points vs 25 points, again a reduction.
Against enemies the meeler only hits on a 20 or hits all the time, Power Attack is a net gain to damage for no drawback-up to almost doubling the damage.

With the use of Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, various charge feats and Cleave, a meeler can multiply his damage by 6x for no real drawbacks-but that is a problem with the additional feats, not PA itself.

Yukitsu
2008-12-11, 10:22 PM
Power Attack on its own is an average feat. A 20th level fighter or Barbarian deals an average of 35 points of damage per attack and hits (on average) 50% of the time.

Base weapon damage 7, enhancement 5, required strength score of 42. Sure, we'll run with it. Polymorph any object is core, and I have no objections with that number as realistic past 15.

Strength 42, +5 weapon means a +21 to hit + BAB. +41 to hit prior to thinking straight.
AC of a CR 23 solar=35
AC of a CR 27 dragon=33
AC of the terrasque=35

So, 95%, 95%, 80%, 55%. 50% is not a realistic number with the damage you have listed, unless you step outside of core, at which point leap attack and boost items makes the trade off significantly worth it.

Thinking even remotely straight, attack routine is 95%, 95%, 75%, 50%, 25% with all attacks at power attack 8, for 16 more damage per swing, averaging 173.4 against a solar, or the terrasque. Your way? 95%, 95%, 95%, 90%, 65% 154. A real set of numbers beats your damage by 20 points.

Asbestos
2008-12-11, 10:22 PM
Let's not forget about leap attack and things like monkey grip and powerfull build.

Monkey grip does not work that way. Or at least, I'm 90% sure it does not.

Also, breakdancing to cast spells? Its always been my interpretation that that is almost exactly what Wizards do. I mean, the somatic components are so freaking complex that even wearing 10lbs of heavy cloth or a 5lb piece of wood on your arm can cause you to screw up if you don't have some sort of special training. Meanwhile the Crusader and Warblade (heck, even the Fighter) have little problem pulling off crazy stuff while in armor that would cause Wizards to fail 20-40% of the time. The Wizard must be doing incredibly elaborate things.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-11, 10:29 PM
A wizard isn't going to have more than +5 modifier to constitution, even with a bonus item. That gives +100 HP.
The same wizard is going to have a +12 modifier to intelligence. That's +240 HP.

Effectively, Faerie Mysteries Initiate means +140 HP for wizards plus no longer needing to pay 36.000 GP for constitution boost item. Does the +140 HP and 36.000 GP for a single feat seem balanced to you?

1) I never claimed it was a particularly good idea. Only that it was their intention. But WotC also came up with Shocktrooper. Which of those is worse?

2) At level 20. Who cares? At level 1 it's 4HP at the most. Yes, I think feats should scale. Crazy huh.

3) I see you didn't even remotely bother to build an optimized Barbarian. And decided to add a +15 Insight bonus to AC to ever monster in the MM. Now try again with a real character, against actual monsters, and notice that Power Attack is a significant increase in damage Probably the equivalent of a +20 equivalent weapon instead of a +10 equivalent, so under your terrible method of trying to categorize the value of feats, it's several million GP.

monty
2008-12-11, 10:32 PM
Also, breakdancing to cast spells? Its always been my interpretation that that is almost exactly what Wizards do. I mean, the somatic components are so freaking complex that even wearing 10lbs of heavy cloth or a 5lb piece of wood on your arm can cause you to screw up if you don't have some sort of special training. Meanwhile the Crusader and Warblade (heck, even the Fighter) have little problem pulling off crazy stuff while in armor that would cause Wizards to fail 20-40% of the time. The Wizard must be doing incredibly elaborate things.

And yet, a Dex 1 Wizard has no problem casting spells. Weird.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-12-11, 10:42 PM
base STR 18, Level and Inherent +10, enhancement +6, rage +8 OR fighter feats for a similar bonus. Effective strength of 42 (core)

BAB 20 + 5 enhancement + 16 strength and/or fighter feats = +41 (again core)

Where, exactly, are you getting your numbers? If it's the monster stat block, remember to add the buffs the creature is expected to have most of the time:
AC of a CR 23 solar: 44 (35 + 4 protective aura which it always has on, +5 magic vestment which it can have on for 17 hours OR +5 armor item which it can have through treasure.)
AC of CR 27 gold dragon : 48 (42+2 foresight SLA +4 mage armor or bracers of armor)
AC of the Tarrasque: 35 (but has DR)

Asbestos
2008-12-11, 10:53 PM
And yet, a Dex 1 Wizard has no problem casting spells. Weird.

Its cause the Arcane Spellcasting failure rate on armor makes little to no sense.

ericgrau
2008-12-11, 11:07 PM
Base weapon damage 7, enhancement 5, required strength score of 42. Sure, we'll run with it. Polymorph any object is core, and I have no objections with that number as realistic past 15.

Strength 42, +5 weapon means a +21 to hit + BAB. +41 to hit prior to thinking straight.
AC of a CR 23 solar=35
AC of a CR 27 dragon=33
AC of the terrasque=35

So, 95%, 95%, 80%, 55%. 50% is not a realistic number with the damage you have listed, unless you step outside of core, at which point leap attack and boost items makes the trade off significantly worth it.

Thinking even remotely straight, attack routine is 95%, 95%, 75%, 50%, 25% with all attacks at power attack 8, for 16 more damage per swing, averaging 173.4 against a solar, or the terrasque. Your way? 95%, 95%, 95%, 90%, 65% 154. A real set of numbers beats your damage by 20 points.

My single handed weapon fighter build averages over 58.5 damage per hit at level 20. 198.9 avg. vs. the tarrasque (3.4 hits per round avg), no power attack as this would decrease his damage since his AB is 34. Core only, no tricks, no outside help from party casters or w/e. You OTOH, used polymorph and an AB so silly-high that you near auto-hit on most attacks. Heavily skewed towards helping PA and yet even with polymorph help it comes out behind a real build. Come on, get real if you're gonna say "real". At least the guy before you made an honest guess at what kind of AB and damage a level 20 guy has; not something that is so well beyond auto-hitting that of course that extra AB is wasted unless you burn it on something.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-11, 11:12 PM
base STR 18, Level and Inherent +10, enhancement +6, rage +8 OR fighter feats for a similar bonus. Effective strength of 42 (core)

BAB 20 + 5 enhancement + 16 strength and/or fighter feats = +41 (again core)

Where, exactly, are you getting your numbers? If it's the monster stat block, remember to add the buffs the creature is expected to have most of the time:
AC of a CR 23 solar: 44 (35 + 4 protective aura which it always has on, +5 magic vestment which it can have on for 17 hours OR +5 armor item which it can have through treasure.)
AC of CR 27 gold dragon : 48 (42+2 foresight SLA +4 mage armor or bracers of armor)
AC of the Tarrasque: 35 (but has DR)

And notice how even a 16 Str fighter, with no other bonuses (IE haste/morale/ect) still has a 65% chance of hitting the CR 27 creature with all expected buffs.

Hmm, almost as if you were totally wrong about 40% to hit, and Power attack would actually aid greatly, against all three of those creatures.

ericgrau
2008-12-11, 11:18 PM
Here, this'll help (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339). PA doesn't do much unless all of your attacks are auto-hitting and that AB would just be wasted otherwise. It is highly dependant on low AC monsters. +3 damage under the right circumstances, less or negative under the wrong ones, thus making it quite balanced with other feats. If your AB is so crazy high as given in previous examples, then you'll easily beat the monsters mentioned with or without extra damage. Ditto if you're normal but the monster is weak or incapacitated. It's just silly.

Stat substitution on the other hand (look ma, I'm getting back on topic!:smallbiggrin:), is often effectively adding +6 to +8 or more to the other stat with a single feat. Even more if you plan ahead and dump the stat. Now that's overpowered.

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-11, 11:26 PM
My single handed weapon fighter build averages over 58.5 damage per hit at level 20. 198.9 avg. vs. the tarrasque (3.4 hits per round avg), no power attack as this would decrease his damage since his AB is 34. Core only, no tricks, no outside help from party casters or w/e.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png

Serenity
2008-12-11, 11:27 PM
Yeah, not really seeing Faerie Mysteries being all that broken. The wizard's casting stat boosts his HP. OK, fine, that'll be a pretty big boost when all is said and done. So? By all accounts I've seen on this board, if the wizard is worrying about HP, he's doing something wrong. And he can't dump Constitution entirely, or he takes a hit on Concentration checks--so if the high HP from FMI is being put to any use, then his spells might well be fizzling.

Blood_Lord
2008-12-12, 12:33 AM
Here, this'll help (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339). PA doesn't do much unless all of your attacks are auto-hitting and that AB would just be wasted otherwise. It is highly dependant on low AC monsters. +3 damage under the right circumstances, less or negative under the wrong ones, thus making it quite balanced with other feats. If your AB is so crazy high as given in previous examples, then you'll easily beat the monsters mentioned with or without extra damage. Ditto if you're normal but the monster is weak or incapacitated. It's just silly.

Stat substitution on the other hand (look ma, I'm getting back on topic!:smallbiggrin:), is often effectively adding +6 to +8 or more to the other stat with a single feat. Even more if you plan ahead and dump the stat. Now that's overpowered.

Oh what? You mean that terrible table I criticized in another thread because you seem to laboring under the mistaken impression that it's actually hard to hit AC?

How about Bob The Orc Barbarian:

Level 20, since that seems to be what we are currently fetishizing at this point in the discussion.

Completely Core with the exception of 10gp Sundark Goggles. -1 to hit and damage without that. No polymorph.

32PB stats:

Non-Core his race would be Dragonborn (flight) Water Orc.

Str 18 +4 Racial +5 Level +5 Inherent +6 item +8 Rage +4 size=50.
Dex 12 probably has a +6 item, 720,000 is a lot of money.
Con 16 +6 Item +8 Rage=30
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 8

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Init, Blind Fight, Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain, Weapon Focus Spiked Chain, Cleave, Improved Critical.

Items: +5 Tome, +6 Item of Str/Con, Boots of Speed, Luck Stone, +5 Resistance Cloak, +8 equivalent Weapon, +3 Equivalent Shield, other stuff.

+1 Animated Heavy Adamantium Shield with MV.
+1 Flaming, Frost, Keen, Shocking, Acidic, Wounding Spiked Chain with GMW.

To hit: +20 Str, +20 BAB, +2 Haste, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Luck, +2 Morale, +5 Enhancement -1 size= +51

Average damage on a charge 53 no PA, against AC 55 and lower.

Attacking AC 55, power attacking for 1 adds 2 average damage. Attacking AC, oh I don't know, 48, the AC of a CR 27 gold Dragon with buffs, Ideal Power attack is for 8 adding 17.5 average damage.

Now on a full attack: Power attack nets increased average damage at AC 50.

Against AC 48, Power attacking for 2 adds an additional 4 average damage.

Against AC 44, Power attacking for 5 adds an additional 18 average damage.

Against the Tarrasque and his AC 35 and DR 40/Epic, Power attacking for for 17 adds 119.5 average damage.

Of course Power attacking is best against DR creatures, but it is also best against creatures using miss chances as well, and if you compare the level 20 barbarian to appropriate CR encounters, you'll see that he auto-hits every single one.

Yes if you had a 50% chance of hitting your opponent, Power attack might not be so great. But you don't, you always have a colossally large chance to hit, because that's how the game works.

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 03:17 AM
My single handed weapon fighter build averages over 58.5 damage per hit at level 20. 198.9 avg. vs. the tarrasque (3.4 hits per round avg), no power attack as this would decrease his damage since his AB is 34. Core only, no tricks, no outside help from party casters or w/e. You OTOH, used polymorph and an AB so silly-high that you near auto-hit on most attacks. Heavily skewed towards helping PA and yet even with polymorph help it comes out behind a real build. Come on, get real if you're gonna say "real". At least the guy before you made an honest guess at what kind of AB and damage a level 20 guy has; not something that is so well beyond auto-hitting that of course that extra AB is wasted unless you burn it on something.

You see how when I state numbers, I give the build, as opposed to stating "I cause 8 hundred million extra damage when I power attack!" as well as the actual differences between the two, as opposed to what you do. And what you do is state "I cause 8 million more damage by not power attacking!" without any evidence to that particular notion. Now when you display your build and show that you're using a titan with a keen falchion, assuming the critical, then I'll procede to continue not caring. And unlike you, I assume reasonable stats, as opposed to an automatic 18 that seems so critical to all arguments ever made.

Now as to your single weapon fighter, doing 58.5 per hit, well let me see here. I'll assume large size, that's almost a given, meaning you deal 2d6 damage with a bastard sword. That means 7 damage. Another 5 from the weapon, and another 4 from the feats. That means you have 16 damage prior to other bonuses, and, being core only as you asserted, you require a strength score of 95. Well, doesn't this seem awefully suspicious! Now perhaps you exaggerated about core only, or perhaps you exaggerated about not abusing polymorph any object, or template stacking, which is, if we're to be honest in any way, directly equivalent.

Now then, you seem to assume an odd number of damage dice. That's fair, but let's assume that you have, in this case, a 3d6 one handed weapon, or a bastard sword while somehow being huge. Which isn't possible without abusing race, by the way. This reduces your required strength by 5, down to a mere 90. How you get that in core, I have no idea! On the other hand, it does mean you have a +65 to hit bonus, which means you can fully power attack and be nearly guaranteed a hit on at least the first hit, and your damage, if you care to calculate it, also goes up drastically.

But perhaps I'm missing something. Please post that build, as I would be very glad to see how that damage is done in core on a full attack, and yet does not benefit from power attack.

When I find out, "core only" means custom crafted items, I'm going to be very cross.

Oslecamo
2008-12-12, 03:31 AM
So? By all accounts I've seen on this board, if the wizard is worrying about HP, he's doing something wrong.

Area damage, nuff said. Even if you're untouchable with physic attacks, you'll find the ocasional energy breather and some other guys wich deal damage at distance, and they'll make you suffer for having so low HP.

I'm looking at you, digester.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-12, 03:53 AM
True, but anyway, most wizard would focus on metamagic or similar things, is more Batman-style.

To the OP: one of the most broken feat in DM is IMHO Elusive Dance. Is Horribly designed, too.

It allows ro choose a target in you turn and avoid all the AOO from him. Nothing else to do, other than choose. No perform chek (is perform based), no prereq if not some ranks in perform. A feat, and you kill one of the best built for melees (if you want to use 76234164 splatbooks.. I mean, for a decent Ubercharger a splat is enough). Kills scout class feature and mobility, too.

It's an example of bad design, too, because says: "if you have dodge, the target of dodge and this feat must be the same". But it's senseless. Would have more sense have Dodge as a prereq, and have the feat effect on the Dodge target. Meh.

Anyway, DM is a good source, you have only to be carefull (and have no so much Munchkin-Taint Points) and choose things you need for your character concepts.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 04:30 AM
Which is more likely: A huge error, somebody had no idea what they were writing.

Actually, I find it very likely that some of the (many) people writing for WOTC and/or Dragon magazine are capable of huge errors, or of having no idea what they are writing.

And yeah, a feat that gives wizards better hit points than most melee classes is overpowered. It's a drop in the bucket of overpoweringness that wizards are already, but that doesn't make it any less overpowered.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-12, 05:02 AM
And yeah, a feat that gives wizards better hit points than most melee classes is overpowered. It's a drop in the bucket of overpoweringness that wizards are already, but that doesn't make it any less overpowered.

I agree that the feat is overpowered. And BTW, I wouldn't allow it in my campaigns, because in my campaigns arcane casters are squishy.

But, imagine.. I want to start a short solo campaign with a friend of mine. He choose a wizard. He needs more HP. Right, this feat woud be the tool to obtain it. I would allow it in that case (and only in that). Every game element is a tool to have more fun. If leads to absurdity and overpowerness, drop it.

KKL
2008-12-12, 05:20 AM
Yeah nevermind, sorry folks, the feat wasn't Dragon. It's called Magical Tradition and from some third party source.

Heliomance
2008-12-12, 06:14 AM
There are actually a lot of Feats like that out in the splatbooks. I ran across one in Complete Divine that allowed a character to use their CHA instead of WIS bonus on Will saves.

Our party Paladin took it, allowing her to use double her CHA modifier on Will saves. :smalltongue:

Then there's the skill substitution feats. The bard feat that lets them use Perform instead of Concentration, for example.

I've got that on my Bard. My perform check is twinked to the point it's actually literally impossible for my to fail any concentration check other than one caused by rather nasty amounts of direct damage.

Roderick_BR
2008-12-12, 06:58 AM
Keen Intellect was a feat that let you use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom one for Will saves and a few skills. There's also Faerie Mysteries Initiate - I think this was supposed to add your Int bonus to your HP but due to some bad writing, ended up sounding like 'use Int instead of Con for HP every level'. Both are munchkin magnets.

And then there's Easy Metamagic, which lets you reduce the level adjust of a metamagic feat. As a general rule, anything that allows you to get metamagic without paying the full price for it has enormous abuse potential.

- Saph

hmm. Interesting. Steadfast Determination (sp?) do the same as Keen Intellect, only for Con, but since Con tends to be a secondary stat, and usually usable by warrior types that tend to have low Will anyway (and clerics, that already have high Wis), it's not as broken.

A feat that lowers Metamagic cost? Isen't there an Epic feat for it? Then again, there's Spellcaster Harrier that was turned into the non-epic Mageslayer, and that's from an official Wizards books...

I heard about the faerie one. It was supposed to give a one time int bonus to HP on 1st level, right?

newbDM
2008-12-12, 06:59 AM
There are actually a lot of Feats like that out in the splatbooks. I ran across one in Complete Divine that allowed a character to use their CHA instead of WIS bonus on Will saves.

Our party Paladin took it, allowing her to use double her CHA modifier on Will saves. :smalltongue:

Then there's the skill substitution feats. The bard feat that lets them use Perform instead of Concentration, for example.

Well, there are people out there who would use those feats for fluff and othere reasons instead of powergaming.

For example, I took the feat that allows you to switch your Cha for Will saves for my previous character. It fitted very well with the character. He was a continued character from a past game, and since I rolled a 6 for his Str I made it so he got "broken" trying to protect an item (the item he obtained last time I played him). He was a Psion, and his Con was also terribly low, so I made him a very diplomatic and charismatic individual with a very high Cha equal to his Int. He took the Leadership feat, and I roll played it that his caravan of followers (and guards) took care of the physical duties for him. He even became a Thrallhard and specialized in Dominate. I would say that feat was very fitting for him, and I refuse to play to be "broken".

Saph
2008-12-12, 08:22 AM
Which is more likely: A huge error, somebody had no idea what they were writing.

WotC decided to give Wizards a super cool option to reward them for high Int.

Uh, the first.

Unless you're claiming that Wizards with a high Int are underpowered and need a boost somehow?


Yeah, not really seeing Faerie Mysteries being all that broken. The wizard's casting stat boosts his HP. OK, fine, that'll be a pretty big boost when all is said and done. So? By all accounts I've seen on this board, if the wizard is worrying about HP, he's doing something wrong. And he can't dump Constitution entirely, or he takes a hit on Concentration checks--so if the high HP from FMI is being put to any use, then his spells might well be fizzling.

This is terrible reasoning. 'Yeah, high-level wizards are really broken, so let's give them something that takes away their only real weakness. It's balanced, because it means they take a penalty on a skill that can be easily boosted to the point where you never fail it.'

You know, this is the exact reason why 4e feats and character design are so much more restrictive. It's so players can't get away with stuff like this anymore.

- Saph

Hal
2008-12-12, 09:05 AM
So wait . . . are there feats which let you switch casting stats?

I can see Paladins or Rangers getting a good boost from such feats. I can also see Clerics abusing such feats like an ugly girlfriend in a Lifetime movie.

RMS Oceanic
2008-12-12, 09:14 AM
So wait . . . are there feats which let you switch casting stats?

I can see Paladins or Rangers getting a good boost from such feats.

Speaking of Paladins, Serenity (Requires Divine Grace) allows you to use your Wisdom modifier, rather than Charisma, for Smites, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands and Turn Undead. Combined with the Spell Compendium, you can be quite a nice self-buffer.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 09:22 AM
Speaking of Paladins, Serenity (Requires Divine Grace) allows you to use your Wisdom modifier, rather than Charisma, for Smites, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands and Turn Undead. Combined with the Spell Compendium, you can be quite a nice self-buffer.Combined with Prestige Paladin and Divine Metamagic, it really makes Clerics insane.

Ascension
2008-12-12, 09:30 AM
Its cause the Arcane Spellcasting failure rate on armor makes little to no sense.

I like the way Mazes and Minotaurs handles this. For most of the casting classes it gives some explanation for why you can't cast in armor (Gods don't like it, magical energies and metal don't interact well, etc.), then when it gets to the last, the sorcerer, it just says "for some mysterious metaphysical reasons." :smallbiggrin:

They shouldn't have tried to explain arcane casting failure in D&D. They should've left it at "mysterious metaphysical reasons."

zerombr
2008-12-12, 10:02 AM
no offense gentlemen, but take it outside, you're derailing my thread :P

Stupendous_Man
2008-12-12, 10:10 AM
So wait . . . are there feats which let you switch casting stats?


Dynamic Priest - Dragonlance. Cha determines bonus spells and maximum spell level you can cast.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 10:20 AM
Here, this'll help (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339). PA doesn't do much unless all of your attacks are auto-hitting and that AB would just be wasted otherwise. It is highly dependant on low AC monsters. +3 damage under the right circumstances, less or negative under the wrong ones, thus making it quite balanced with other feats. If your AB is so crazy high as given in previous examples, then you'll easily beat the monsters mentioned with or without extra damage. Ditto if you're normal but the monster is weak or incapacitated. It's just silly.

Good job referencing your own faulty math. Using your own research in the absolutist fashion you are generally makes you look like a pollster.

Mephit
2008-12-12, 10:31 AM
Some of the Illumian sigil words also change the stat that determines your bonus spells. It doesn't, however, do anything else with your spells, so I can't imagine why anyone would want it. :smallannoyed:

Darrin
2008-12-12, 11:14 AM
Alternative Source Spell and Customize Domain (Dragon #325) could probably be considered broken.

Elusive Dance (Dragon #333) also looks pretty interesting (pick one target, and they get *no* AoOs against you, nothing they can do about it).

Troll Blooded (Dragon #319) gives you Regeneration 1. 1st level only and requires Toughness, so only really works for humans. Exposure to sunlight causes fatigue, but that's fairly easy to get rid of.

Disturbing Spell (Dragon #332) I haven't seen anyone abuse yet... when applying one metamagic feat to spontaneous spells, apply level increase as Wisdom damage instead. Easily combined with a Strongheart Vest or something that heals/prevents Wisdom damage (bind Naberious?). Or hey, just Persist it and then cast Lesser Restoration.

Draz74
2008-12-12, 11:59 AM
Combined with Prestige Paladin and Divine Metamagic, it really makes Clerics insane.

Don't forget Battle Blessing. :smallbiggrin:

No DM in any sane campaign should allow both Battle Blessing and the Prestige Paladin.

Risek
2008-12-12, 12:00 PM
A player wanted to use Faerie Mysteries Initiate in my game. That was a no.

Heh, that happened to me once too. So then I tried to get him to explain it (What, suddenly you're sooo smart, you're healthy?)

Blood_Lord
2008-12-12, 02:55 PM
@ whoever talked about area attacks: The only problem is that if you are allowing Dragon, you are probably allowing SpC. And that means the Wizard is immune to every energy type anyway.

Also, they can usually cast Resist Energy in Core before the creature has much of a chance to do anything.


Uh, the first.

Unless you're claiming that Wizards with a high Int are underpowered and need a boost somehow?

Please try to pay attention. I am not claiming that Wizards are underpowered. I am claiming that in the early years WotC had no idea what stats you could actually expect, or how great Wizards were at avoiding actual attacks.

Look at actual DMG NPCs to see what WotC though the average Wizard's Int mod would be. It's +8 at level 20. They consider that high. At level 15 they expect only a 23.

So yes, I think that WotC thought that it would be a neat feat for Wizards to switch them, and they didn't realize how much of an HP jump it would be.

I find that much more likely then they intended a feat you have to be an elf, perform a ritual with someone else who also has the feat, and is also an elf, all in order to get + 20hp at level 20, assuming you dumped Con.

They have a feat for that, it's called Improved Toughness.

Zeful
2008-12-12, 03:23 PM
Don't forget Battle Blessing. :smallbiggrin:

No DM in any sane campaign should allow both Battle Blessing and the Prestige Paladin.

A good benchmark is: If it's seen on the CharOp board, don't allow it.

But then I don't allow much outside of the Core Ruleset (due to unfamiliarity, rather than some insane notion of balance).

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 03:25 PM
But I think I've seen everything on the character op boards at some point in time. :smalleek:

SurlySeraph
2008-12-12, 03:26 PM
Troll Blooded (Dragon #319) gives you Regeneration 1. 1st level only and requires Toughness, so only really works for humans.

Or Strongheart Halflings.
Which is a horrible mental image.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 03:26 PM
But I think I've seen everything on the character op boards at some point in time. :smalleek:I'm currently trying to break a Truenamer. I'll post more on the topic when I'm done.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-12-12, 04:03 PM
Edit: Oh, and it's apparently a Greyhawk regional feat. Well, that gives a second reason to say no to it, like you need one. :P

So exactly why is that a reason to disapprove of a feat?

Hmm..I don't think the Im. and Greater Combat Reflexes feat are really all that bad. It fits a very niche build and requires you have have a decent-to-good Int bonus to take full advantage of it in the broken fashion. But then again I plan on taking them as a sword and board warblade, so what do I know about broken? :smalltongue:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-12, 04:06 PM
So exactly why is that a reason to disapprove of a feat?

Hmm..I don't think the Im. and Greater Combat Reflexes feat are really all that bad. It fits a very niche build and requires you have have a decent-to-good Int bonus to take full advantage of it in the broken fashion. But then again I plan on taking them as a sword and board warblade, so what do I know about broken? :smalltongue:S&B is actually effective as a Warblade, as you're likely to not bother with the Ubercharge-style that makes THF so OP and won't have so much Str that you're losing much damage.

Zeful
2008-12-12, 04:11 PM
So exactly why is that a reason to disapprove of a feat?

Because you can only take it if your character's from the campaign takes place in Greyhawk?

Fax Celestis
2008-12-12, 04:35 PM
Because you can only take it if your character's from the campaign takes place in Greyhawk?

Regional feats generally only apply when that region actually exists in your game's universe. Most DMs I've played under remove region restrictions off of region feats anyway--and from my understanding, two ranks in Knowledge (Local (Your Region of Choice)) qualifies you for regional feats from that region anyway.

Saph
2008-12-12, 07:18 PM
Because you can only take it if your character's from the campaign takes place in Greyhawk?

Yup, and I know hardly any DMs who favour Greyhawk - usually it's FR, Eberron, or the DM's homebrew world.

- Saph

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 07:21 PM
Yup, and I know hardly any DMs who favour Greyhawk - usually it's FR, Eberron, or the DM's homebrew world.

- Saph

That makes wizards and other casters scarier, not weaker IMO. Keeping the players away from Faerun would probably keep them on the low end of things by enough that Faerie mysteries initiate seems like nothing when in Greyhawk.

Saph
2008-12-12, 07:29 PM
That makes wizards and other casters scarier, not weaker IMO. Keeping the players away from Faerun would probably keep them on the low end of things by enough that Faerie mysteries initiate seems like nothing when in Greyhawk.

Uh, I really can't understand what you're trying to say. FMI is broken. Other things in D&D are also broken. Listing the other things that are broken does not make FMI less broken.

Having a player who thinks this argument makes sense does make things more convenient for the DM, though.

DM: "You can't have this feat, it's broken."
Player: "But I could do the same thing with Cheesy Prestige Class A and Cheesy Alternate Class Feature B!"
DM: "Okay, they're banned too."

Ends the argument very fast.

- Saph

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 07:41 PM
Uh, I really can't understand what you're trying to say. FMI is broken. Other things in D&D are also broken. Listing the other things that are broken does not make FMI less broken.

I believe he's saying that Faerun (and, I suppose, Eberron) are more high-powered than Greyhawk (which is true, but not as a result of the rules, which are the same) and that therefore an overpowered option which would make Faerun even worse, would not be quite as bad in Greyhawk.

I don't particularly agree with that, but I think that's what he meant. YMMV.

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 07:44 PM
Uh, I really can't understand what you're trying to say. FMI is broken. Other things in D&D are also broken. Listing the other things that are broken does not make FMI less broken.

Having a player who thinks this argument makes sense does make things more convenient for the DM, though.

DM: "You can't have this feat, it's broken."
Player: "But I could do the same thing with Cheesy Prestige Class A and Cheesy Alternate Class Feature B!"
DM: "Okay, they're banned too."

Ends the argument very fast.

- Saph

I mean Greyhawk is a low powered setting. Saying people can't take it because other people mostly play Faerun or Eberron is inane. I'd much, much rather be in Faerun than Greyhawk because I can simply be an incantrix or a disciple of mystra. I wouldn't even think twice about not having access to Faerie mysteries initiate, because now I'm already insane. The point being, Greyhawk with FMI is basically low powertopia, while Faerun is the castergasm. Eberron being almost as bad, just with less splatbooks.

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 07:46 PM
I believe he's saying that Faerun (and, I suppose, Eberron) are more high-powered than Greyhawk (which is true, but not as a result of the rules, which are the same) and that therefore an overpowered option which would make Faerun even worse, would not be quite as bad in Greyhawk.

I don't particularly agree with that, but I think that's what he meant. YMMV.

I mean even with that feat, Greyhawk isn't touching Faerun. Not even remotely. When someone is chaincasting imprison as a quickened spell 4 times a day with 30+ DCs is a problem. Wizards having hit points isn't.

Zeful
2008-12-12, 07:48 PM
I mean Greyhawk is a low powered setting. Saying people can't take it because other people mostly play Faerun or Eberron is inane. I'd much, much rather be in Faerun than Greyhawk because I can simply be an incantrix or a disciple of mystra. I wouldn't even think twice about not having access to Faerie mysteries initiate, because now I'm already insane. The point being, Greyhawk with FMI is basically low powertopia, while Faerun is the castergasm. Eberron being almost as bad, just with less splatbooks.

This is why I'm currently trying to write my own campaign setting. That way I don't have to worry about to much broken crap like Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Incantrix or other things.

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 07:54 PM
If wizards having hit points is on your list of your biggest problems, I suspect that there will be many, many things removed.

Saph
2008-12-12, 07:56 PM
I mean Greyhawk is a low powered setting. Saying people can't take it because other people mostly play Faerun or Eberron is inane.

Yes, it's completely inane to suggest that you can't take a Greyhawk regional feat when you're not in Greyhawk. What was I thinking?


I'd much, much rather be in Faerun than Greyhawk because I can simply be an incantrix or a disciple of mystra.

Actually, you can't. At least, not if you're playing in one of my games, or any other DM who doesn't allow that material for any one of the myriad of good reasons not to allow that material. So now you don't need to worry about your chaincasting whatevers anymore.

- Saph

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 07:58 PM
Yes, it's completely inane to suggest that you can't take a Greyhawk regional feat when you're not in Greyhawk. What was I thinking?

It's inane to use it as reasoning for stating that it's overpowered.


Actually, you can't. At least, not if you're playing in one of my games, or any other DM who doesn't allow that material for any one of the myriad of good reasons not to allow that material. So now you don't need to worry about your chaincasting whatevers anymore.

- Saph

Considering that both are rather important to the setting, and as power goes, about par for the course, I doubt that it much resembes Faerun any more.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 08:01 PM
It's inane to use it as reasoning for stating that it's overpowered.
Yes, which is why nobody was suggesting that in the first place.


Considering that both are rather important to the setting,
No they're not. Mystra, as in the goddess, is important to the FR (or was, until a certain spellplague happened); not any particular prestige class.


and as power goes, about par for the course,
No they're not. They're either top tier or broken tier, and I believe you're well aware of that.

Zeful
2008-12-12, 08:02 PM
If wizards having hit points is on your list of your biggest problems, I suspect that there will be many, many things removed.

I allow core only and inform players to play nice, or I stop doing so. You'd be surprised how well the threat works.

Saph
2008-12-12, 08:06 PM
It's inane to use it as reasoning for stating that it's overpowered.

If you go back and read my post, I said that FMI being a Greyhawk feat is one more reason not to allow it (like you need one). This is a reason not to allow it because most people don't play in Greyhawk. Therefore, most people are not going to play in the setting which the feat is from.

- Saph

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 08:13 PM
Yes, which is why nobody was suggesting that in the first place.

True. Guess I got caught up in it.


No they're not. Mystra, as in the goddess, is important to the FR (or was, until a certain spellplague happened); not any particular prestige class.

What mechanics do you find to be integral to the world? How much crunch can you remove before all you have left is fluff? The odd and interesting classes are part of what makes the setting identifiable. The unique rules are part of what makes the differences relevant. Otherwise, at some point, you're playing Greyhawk with Faerunian names.


No they're not. They're either top tier or broken tier, and I believe you're well aware of that.

They make the top tier comboes, but by themselves are actually manageable. Disciple of mystra is only really bad when you really get into heavy use of AMF, which you can do in greyhawk as an archmage anyway, or when you use incantrix to get 0 or negative adjusted metamagic. Without using those, they are powerful, but not more so than say, a shadow craft mage that isn't abusing 120% reality.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 08:16 PM
What mechanics do you find to be integral to the world?
I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but my personal answer is "none".



They make the top tier comboes, but by themselves are actually manageable.
I agree that they are manageable, but personally I would probably manage them by forbidding them. But, see, I don't go make long lists of "stuff that's forbidden" in my games; I just reserve the right to veto. And I don't have the kind of players for which that is necessary. The kind of player new to me whose first suggestion is an Incantatrix, well, I'll probably run him through a game of Paranoia first and see how he reacts :smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2008-12-12, 08:21 PM
I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but my personal answer is "none".

Indeed I do. Part of the reason for playing other settings is having different baselines of power, new and interesting builds to make, etc. I'd hate to see Ravenloft being played core rules only.


I agree that they are manageable, but personally I would probably manage them by forbidding them. But, see, I don't go make long lists of "stuff that's forbidden" in my games; I just reserve the right to veto. And I don't have the kind of players for which that is necessary. The kind of player new to me whose first suggestion is an Incantatrix, well, I'll probably run him through a game of Paranoia first and see how he reacts :smallbiggrin:

It's just like DMM persist. It's fine until the night sticks show up to the party. It's easier to ban both, but that doesn't recognize that DMM persist isn't really broken. Much like incantrix isn't all that bad until you toss in easy metamagic, arcane thesis and metamagic school focus for a -1 adjustment for quickened, empowered time stops.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-12-12, 08:43 PM
Yup, and I know hardly any DMs who favour Greyhawk - usually it's FR, Eberron, or the DM's homebrew world.

- Saph

Ah, my mistake then. For some reason I read your statement and thought you meant that there is something broken about Greyhawk regional feats in general, not that you disallow them because you aren't playing in Greyhawk.

And in case you were keeping count, you can count one more DM who favors Greyhawk in your list. I much prefer it over FR and I haven't been able to play Eberron.

Kris Strife
2008-12-13, 06:37 AM
If that's an actual feat, I now have an excellent character concept to apply it. In two words: Barbarian Batman. In more words: an orc who casts spells by hitting reality with his axe so hard that it conforms to his will.

That'd be more of a Superboy Prime caster than a Batman.

Also, what is this Prestige Paladin class?

Gorbash
2008-12-13, 07:43 AM
From Unearhthed Arcana, a Variant of the Paladin class, where it's a prestige class, not a core class.

newbDM
2008-12-30, 01:19 PM
Dynamic Priest - Dragonlance. Cha determines bonus spells and maximum spell level you can cast.


Any chance this could work for a psion?! Could be very useful to me right now...

Coplantor
2008-12-31, 10:14 AM
Is it allright that everytime I see the title of this thread I start singing to myself: "Take, this broken feats, and learn to fly again, learn to be so free..."?

zerombr
2008-12-31, 04:35 PM
...it's not only allowed, it's highly encouraged, that was an awesome song back in the day /derail

ChaosDefender24
2008-12-31, 09:38 PM
I'm confused, why would I ever want to substitute Int for Con for my HP when I can turn into a war troll?

monty
2008-12-31, 09:43 PM
I'm confused, why would I ever want to substitute Int for Con for my HP when I can turn into a war troll?

Because you can do both!

ChaosDefender24
2008-12-31, 09:46 PM
And have 31 Int at level 12?

EDIT: Nvm, if you end being chronotyryn the feat's better

monty
2008-12-31, 09:49 PM
And have 31 Int at level 12?

...why do you need that much?

ChaosDefender24
2008-12-31, 09:50 PM
My initial point was that there's no point to swapping Con for Int to HP if you can easily get your Con higher than your Int. At level 12, Draconic Polymorphing into a War Troll gets you 31 Con

monty
2008-12-31, 09:56 PM
My initial point was that there's no point to swapping Con for Int to HP if you can easily get your Con higher than your Int. At level 12, Draconic Polymorphing into a War Troll gets you 31 Con

But polymorphing doesn't change your HP.

ChaosDefender24
2008-12-31, 09:58 PM
What?!?!? Since when?!?!
I thought that was alternate form only... crap...

Arcane_Snowman
2008-12-31, 10:17 PM
I feel the need to point out that Force of Personality only works on mind affecting spells and abilities.

Although not in a Dragon Magazine, Dragonwrought is definitely a horribly, horribly, horribly good feat, allowing for all sorts of broken awesomeness, +3 to all mental stats for a single feat is rather good.

But I think I'll agree with whoever said that Trollblooded was a broken feat, mainly because when you can combine it with something like Saint, I believe it approaches a miniature Terrasque dilemma, in that you cannot be killed (Saint gives immunity to Acid/Fire, which is if I recall correctly, is what Regeneration from Trollblooded is bypassed by)

Skjaldbakka
2008-12-31, 11:45 PM
I tend to agree that those things are perfectly fine in a FR campaign. Why?

Because growing up, I read FR novels. Yeah, I didn't know what quality reading material was yet*. zOMG broken spellcasters is 110% supported by the fluff of FR.


*actually, there were a few gems in there. but looking back, it was mostly rubbish.

Dixieboy
2008-12-31, 11:51 PM
Wich feat allows you to do that?

Bastards and bloodlines

Forgotten tradition i think it was called, though not sure >>

Blood_Lord
2009-01-01, 12:24 AM
I feel the need to point out that Force of Personality only works on mind affecting spells and abilities.

No it isn't. It's Cha instead of Wis, for all saves. Are you some reading some old setting book?