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Mark Hall
2008-12-12, 04:46 PM
Ok, we had a discussion about this (before I decided to go with my Warlord to replace the late St. Hecar... it was our cleric of Bahamut who titled him that): If you have a magical thrown weapon, and a ranged power that affects multiple people, do you use the magical weapon on all attack rolls, or just on one of them?

The conclusion we reached (though, again, it didn't wind up mattering for that build) is that you DO get to use it on every attack roll. Our reasoning was simple: The other answer is dumb. It means that high-level rogues have to carry multiple magical throwing weapons to get the effects of their powers, especially if they're a throwy rogue, something that isn't even implied, and makes those builds prohibitively expensive. The other answer (that you throw one weapon, and it either hits everyone or flies back into your hand for a machine-gun effect), doesn't make as much sense, but at least it doesn't make a core build useless.

Oh, and the quote in my sig? The new one? That happened a couple weeks ago, and I felt the need to share.

Starsinger
2008-12-12, 04:52 PM
I imagine it comes back after each throw. Of course, depending on the ability, it may split in mid air.

fractic
2008-12-12, 04:57 PM
It says that it comes back after the attack is resolved. So I would not allow a single magical dagger to be used to attack mutliple targets with a single power. However you could get shuriken and enchant them 5 at a time to solve this problem.

mikeejimbo
2008-12-12, 05:05 PM
It says that it comes back after the attack is resolved. So I would not allow a single magical dagger to be used to attack mutliple targets with a single power. However you could get shuriken and enchant them 5 at a time to solve this problem.

That's how I read it, too. I thought that you weren't supposed to be able to be a throwing-dagger rogue with any effectiveness.

hamishspence
2008-12-12, 05:08 PM
What about that bracer in Adventuer's Vault that creates magic daggers?

Since it says "a dagger created disappears at the end of your turn" I figure that if you have Quick Draw and this bracer of infinite blades, you can use daggers in blast powers, etc.

Draz74
2008-12-12, 05:15 PM
Ok, we had a discussion about this (before I decided to go with my Warlord to replace the late St. Hecar... it was our cleric of Bahamut who titled him that): If you have a magical thrown weapon, and a ranged power that affects multiple people, do you use the magical weapon on all attack rolls, or just on one of them?

The conclusion we reached (though, again, it didn't wind up mattering for that build) is that you DO get to use it on every attack roll. Our reasoning was simple: The other answer is dumb. It means that high-level rogues have to carry multiple magical throwing weapons to get the effects of their powers, especially if they're a throwy rogue, something that isn't even implied, and makes those builds prohibitively expensive. The other answer (that you throw one weapon, and it either hits everyone or flies back into your hand for a machine-gun effect), doesn't make as much sense, but at least it doesn't make a core build useless.


Based on the Gamist philosophy of 4e, I'd say your reasoning is very sound. Personally, I'd fluff it as the weapon ricocheting or splitting, rather than bouncing back to your hand multiple times in one attack.

Yuki Akuma
2008-12-12, 05:18 PM
The book says you need one weapon for each target. So, no, you do not get to use your uber magic dagger against every target.

Hzurr
2008-12-12, 05:54 PM
The book says you need one weapon for each target. So, no, you do not get to use your uber magic dagger against every target.

Page reference?

Mark Hall
2008-12-12, 06:08 PM
The book says you need one weapon for each target. So, no, you do not get to use your uber magic dagger against every target.

"Where?" would be my question; I didn't locate it while looking.

hamishspence
2008-12-12, 06:13 PM
Page 270 PHB: Ranged attack box- one thrown weapon or piece of ammunition for each target.

Doomsy
2008-12-12, 06:15 PM
Common sense would indicate 1 thrown magic weapon hits 1 target. If you want multiple thrown magic weapons, get multiple thrown magic weapons. This seems a sane and secure way to prevent someone from flinging greatswords.

On the same note, does anyone know if rules for kabers exist in D&D? I kind of just had an idea.

Tacoma
2008-12-12, 06:36 PM
Do you mean these kabers? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_tossing)

The event is similar but not identical to the Sheep Toss, where the goal is to get the aforementioned sheep to throw up and have the spew be aligned like the hand of a clock as close to 12:00 as possible in relation to the athlete (known traditionally as the "Shaker" or the "Tickler" depending on his chosen form).

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-12, 06:40 PM
It's getting to the point that whenever someone says "common sense" I start getting nervous. Perhaps I've been on the Internet too long :smallconfused:

OK, some quotes

Thrown Weapons: Any magic light thrown or heavy thrown weapon, from the lowly +1 shuriken to a +6 perfect hunterís spear, automatically returns to its wielderís hand after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved.


Targeted: Ranged attacks target individuals.

A ranged attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll. Ranged attacks donít create areas of effect (page 272).

If youíre using a projectile weapon to make a ranged attack against multiple targets, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if youíre using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.

Emphasis mine.

This shows us that you only need one dagger.

When attacking multiple targets with a magic dagger, you make a series of individual ("separate") attacks. After each individual attack, the dagger returns to the wielder's hand, giving the attacker a dagger to use against a new target.

The text about needing a thrown weapon for each target is merely to clarify that someone with a single non-magical dagger cannot hit 5 people, the same way someone with a bow cannot shoot 5 people with a single non-magical arrow. Since the attacker with the magical dagger always has one at hand, he will have sufficient daggers for any number of targets.

Tacoma
2008-12-12, 06:42 PM
It's getting to the point that whenever someone says "common sense" I start getting nervous. Perhaps I've been on the Internet too long :smallconfused:


It's justified (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetCounterattack) in this case I think.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-12, 06:45 PM
It's justified (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InternetCounterattack) in this case I think.

But he was wrong, as my post points out. Unless you have a different interpretation of the quoted text?

hamishspence
2008-12-12, 06:51 PM
that bracer seems designed to get around the limitation. Which raises quest- why have it, if a +2 dagger will do the same thing as the bracer but is much much cheaper?

"If you're using a thrown weapon" doesn't explicitly say "non-magical" so, with both "one for each target" and "after a ranged attack is resolved"

(remember it can have multiple targets and item(s) doesn't return to hand until every target has been attacked)

you get the net result- magic daggers don't return to hand until end of the multi-target-hitting attack, so either it ricochets from target to target, or, you need multiple daggers.

hamishspence
2008-12-12, 06:56 PM
I think it might have been errataed to clarify the issue, but am not sure. Quick Draw is also relevant- to throw all the daggers as one Power.

allonym
2008-12-12, 07:02 PM
14. I am using a magical thrown weapon as part of an area of effect power. If I am attacking multiple enemies within that area, do I need multiple weapons, or will one suffice?

One is enough in this case. Magical thrown weapons return to you after each attack, so youíll be able to use it against each enemy as part of using your power.

PHB FAQ (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396)

Oracle Hunter is correct.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-12, 07:09 PM
But he was wrong, as my post points out. Unless you have a different interpretation of the quoted text?
While your interpretation is correct, this does seem to be a case where the proverbial left hand of the design team didn't know what the right hand was doing, since by RAW there really is no point in those bracers-of-infinite-daggers as printed in the AV, several months after the PHB went live.

Starsinger
2008-12-12, 07:11 PM
While your interpretation is correct, this does seem to be a case where the proverbial left hand of the design team didn't know what the right hand was doing, since by RAW there really is no point in those bracers-of-infinite-daggers as printed in the AV, several months after the PHB went live.

Depending on the DM anyways. Some DMs may be uncomfortable with a single magic dagger being used for multiple attacks in a round.

Doomsy
2008-12-13, 12:18 AM
Huh. I was wrong. This makes my enchanted caber even more awesome.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-12-13, 12:28 AM
While your interpretation is correct, this does seem to be a case where the proverbial left hand of the design team didn't know what the right hand was doing, since by RAW there really is no point in those bracers-of-infinite-daggers as printed in the AV, several months after the PHB went live.

I've always visualized WotC as a kind of Hecatonchires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires)-like entity, except that none of the fifty heads can communicate with the other :smalltongue:

I mean, look at the Titanium Dragon's review of Adventurer's Vault (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1100755&highlight=Adventurer%27s+Vault). Whoever wrote half that book had clearly never played a game of 4E.

Grynning
2008-12-13, 01:23 AM
Huh. I was wrong. This makes my enchanted caber even more awesome.

While it would be nigh-impossible to use an actual caber as a weapon, you could make up a kind of "Battle Caber," a shortened, weighted version meant for hurtin folk...

Battle Caber - Superior weapon

Prof. +2; Damage d12; Mace; Heavy Thrown, Brutal 2, Reach

Special: Cabers are very large and unwieldy if used in melee. You do not receive the proficiency bonus for using a Battle Caber as a melee weapon, even if you have the Weapon Proficiency: Battle Caber feat.