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Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 01:56 AM
I'm considering joining a Warhammer roleplay on another forum I frequent, mainly because I'm curious about it. The thing is, everything I've heard about Warhammer (mainly from TV Tropes, so it's most likely flawed), paints it as a setting that takes idealistic people, has them sodomized by demons, tortured to within an inch of their life, their belief systems mercilessly crushed before their souls are finally torn from their body and dragged screaming into hell for some Cthulu-esque god's breakfast while their rotting carcass is reanimated by said god to serve as cannon-fodder. Lather, rinse and repeat.

I like playing Lawful Good, Superman-esque characters, who always try to do the right thing, and everything I've heard seems to indicate that characters with such personalities are not welcome in Warhammer. A friend has recommended playing a High Elf, Wood Elf or a Bretonnian, but everything I've read about those isn't exactly rosy.

Am I worrying too much about this? Have I been mislead? Should I just shun it like the plague?

(Note: The available factions to be part of for the roleplay include the High Elves, the Wood Elves, the Dwarves, the Lizardmen, the Empire, Bretonnia, the Orcs and Goblins, possibly the Ogre Kingdoms. The Undead, Dark Elves, Skaven and Chaos factions have been banned for balance reasons.)

Matthew
2008-12-15, 02:09 AM
It is not so much the personality that would be a problem, but the fact that you will not be "super-heroic" by any stretch of the imagination. Fighting the good fight in an impossible situation is part of the attraction of the Warhammer campaign world, but the best you can reasonably hope for is probably a glorious death!

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 02:11 AM
So it's not so much outright hostility to such characters as it is futility of said characters?

Kojiro Kakita
2008-12-15, 02:14 AM
As a player of the RPG I can only say this, you start out as nothing special, then become a little bit better than the average person, and finally become a leader of men. However, you must remember, that everything can kill you and the best fight is the fight you avoid.

FatR
2008-12-15, 03:53 AM
Yes, characters with superheroic, stictly LG, mindset are unwelcome in Warhammer. Mostly because your allies and nations you protect routinely engage in various activities that would be evil in DnD terms. This is less blatant in Warhammer Fantasy, but still. And you're powerless to do anything about that. You're also almost powerless in general, being only slightly, if at all, above common thugs and bruisers, although you might get better with time and experience.

BobVosh
2008-12-15, 06:17 AM
As a player of the RPG I can only say this, you start out as nothing special, then become a little bit better than the average person, and finally become a leader of men. However, you must remember, that everything can kill you and the best fight is the fight you avoid.

QFT

Bolded for emphasis.

All I can say is less lethal than CoC. Still very much so, though.

RPGuru1331
2008-12-15, 06:29 AM
The general vib eof Warhammer?

SKULLS! MANY SKULLS! THERE ARE ALSO BANNERS WITH SKULLS ON THEM. MOUNTED ATOP THESE BANNERS ARE MORE SKULLS, FROM THE MOUTH OF WHICH HANG MORE BANNERS WITH SKULLS ON THEM.

It's a silly place.

caden_varn
2008-12-15, 06:29 AM
Warhammer is not high fantasy, unlike D&D. There is nothing inherently wrong with having a character with high-minded idealism, but expect to be very much the exception. One of the main themes of Warhammer is slow creeping corruption infiltrating society. The gods are at best distant and the threat of Chaos is constant. Those who fight chaos often end up corrupted by it, often insane. You should really be prepared to have your characters attitude change over time, and accept that they may not keep that Paladin-like outlook in the face of what they experience.
Also, depending on what sort of character generation system the game uses, you may not have much choice about your starting profession. Standard is roll randomly twice and choose which one you want. It's easy enough to end up with a couple of professions which don't really fit your ideal, such as rag-picker or peasant.

As other posters have already said, PCs are not particularly special on the Warhammer world. Its best to avoid fighting where possible, especially as you can get permanent injuries (like losing limbs) fairly easily.

Avilan the Grey
2008-12-15, 06:48 AM
I have never (to my great disappointment) had the opportunity to play Warhammer, but I like the fluff and have read a lot.

WH40K is Grimdark on Steroids and Gamma Bomb mutations.

WH is less so, but appart from the Chaos Gods, and the problem they bring, there are parts of the setting that is very Real Life; a LG Paladin would not fit into a world where Politics seem to work like it does in real life, at least to a degree.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-15, 06:49 AM
The general vib eof Warhammer?

SKULLS! MANY SKULLS! THERE ARE ALSO BANNERS WITH SKULLS ON THEM. MOUNTED ATOP THESE BANNERS ARE MORE SKULLS, FROM THE MOUTH OF WHICH HANG MORE BANNERS WITH SKULLS ON THEM.

It's a silly place.You forgot the SPIKES and the SPIKES WITH SPIKES ON THEM.

Kiero
2008-12-15, 06:57 AM
Warhammer most certainly can be run in a heroic vein, but most people don't seem to want to play it that way. I'm currently playing in a face-to-face game where the GM isn't wanting to play that, and I quote:


I've run WFRP once before, a couple of years ago. We went with the full randomised system, careers and all, and there was much fun had the characters' were generally incompetent, yes, but that wasn't so much due to the oft-cited low ability scores that WFRP characters have but more down to, well, such fantastic decisions as infiltrating the sewers beneath a fortress only to realise they had forgotten to bring any light sources, or that sniffing warpstone powder was a fine idea. It was a good taste of the system and gave me some experience of how the combat part of the game runs often at the expense of my beautiful, precious villains as they had their brains blown across the scenery or were shanked by determined PC's in close quarters.

This time, I wanted to take the lessons I learned from that trial run and do something a little different. I'm afraid that my take on WFRP this time may anger some of the mud, blood and grime purists out there.

So, my little rant. Skip straight past this if you just want the meat of the AP.

A Grim World of Perilous Adventure: WFRP is dangerous. It's a gritty setting full of darkness and corruption, where diseases can be a truly lethal threat and where the combat system pulls no punches. Society is superstitious, ignorant and tends to call 'adventurers' what they are mercenaries or criminals.

That said, to quote myself, I do not intend to run a game where the players run a band of crippled rat-catchers wading through **** and getting dumped on by the world. I love that WFRP has that element, that the squalor and base tasks at the bottom of a feudal (yet evolving) society are right there in your face rather than sanitised at the back of a shiny fantasy land. I fully intend for it to be a Grim World, where the setting is one of power-plays between those desperate or ruthless enough; where people suffer through great hardships; where there are a myriad of external and internal threats; and where society is, often, quite ugly.

But **** it, I love Colour Wizards.

For all the claims that WFRP is about diseased rejects of society waist-deep in fetid slop, Warhammer is an unashamedly fantastical setting. There are colleges of wizards, mankind's great weapon that it also hates and mistrusts, who wield themed forms of magic. I think this is awesome. There are bizarre and crazed beasts of brain-hurting anatomical form, some of which have bizarre and alien societies and others of which are quite happy to just eat people, and these conflict and struggle with humanity. This too is awesome. There is truly ancient sorcery, artefacts and relics of vast power, grand sweeping plots of byzantine form and defiant heroism even in the face of doom. And this, you guessed it, is also awesome.

I have no intention of throwing magic items at my players to result in D&D-style juggernauts clad tip-to-toe in sorcery. Magic and the fantastical is no shiny, clean thing sorcery is dangerous and unreliable, while the strange things in the forest that look like fairies probably want to pull your teeth out and twine your guts around the trees. It's still dangerous. But WFRP is fantasy, and sometimes in truly grand style.

More than that, WFRP does not have to be about incompetent cretins who get caught in horrible cultist plots by mistake and probably die. It does not have to be about the GM actively punishing players for every risk they take by making them contract diseases, lose limbs or die. These things are all possibilities, accepted risks for the characters, but I often see people pontificating about how the correct way to run WFRP is in an adversarial manner, out to get the PCs.

Screw that.

I want fantasy, and I want bravery and action. Both the fantasy and action are dangerous, and characters may die. That's the risk. But I am not out to 'get' the players, or their characters. I want an awesome game. A game of Perilous Adventure, not slopping out the pig pens and contracting pig-hock rot.

Let's see if I can manage it.

Which is cool. I wouldn't be much enjoying the "traditional" style of WFRP, because I hate unheroic games.

That said there is still a lot of incompetence built into the system. Single-die-roll systems feature a lot of randomness, and not in a good way, IMO. Not only are chances to hit for starting characters pretty low, there's also an equal chance your opponent will block or dodge. So sometimes combats can be pretty frustrating when you finally land a blow, only for it to be negated. Rolling for damage as well means armoured opponents can he hard to hurt.

Grail
2008-12-15, 07:06 AM
The correct way to play WHFRP is to enjoy it and have fun.

I have played WHFRP in both the ultra gritty, you cannot win style and also in a more heroic style, where the characters are bastions of light against the darkness. Both are 100% legitimate styles of the game.

So really, what it boils down to, is what style your GM will use. The only thing to remember is that the system is a lot harsher, both in terms of getting hurt and getting spooked. Big Bad Things are generally going to wallop you 9 ways from Sunday.

lisiecki
2008-12-15, 07:37 AM
but the best you can reasonably hope for is probably a glorious death!

And there is no glorious death either.
But people will tell you there is, to string you along

Sinfire Titan
2008-12-15, 08:12 AM
I'm considering joining a Warhammer roleplay on another forum I frequent, mainly because I'm curious about it. The thing is, everything I've heard about Warhammer (mainly from TV Tropes, so it's most likely flawed), paints it as a setting that takes idealistic people, has them sodomized by demons, tortured to within an inch of their life, their belief systems mercilessly crushed before their souls are finally torn from their body and dragged screaming into hell for some Cthulu-esque god's breakfast while their rotting carcass is reanimated by said god to serve as cannon-fodder. Lather, rinse and repeat.

More like Knight Templars against everyone who doesn't agree with them. The fluff behind the series portrays the commoners as the type who wouldn't hesistate to join in on lynching suspected Chaos Cultists. The Elves are your standard haughty bastards, while the Dwarves are more Steam Punk-esque. The Chaos Cults themselves are pretty freaky (read the Liber Chaotica for a good idea on how freaky).


I like playing Lawful Good, Superman-esque characters, who always try to do the right thing, and everything I've heard seems to indicate that characters with such personalities are not welcome in Warhammer. A friend has recommended playing a High Elf, Wood Elf or a Bretonnian, but everything I've read about those isn't exactly rosy.

Bretonnians fit the concept easily, though their national history is somewhat off-target from their ideals. This may be an understatement.


Am I worrying too much about this? Have I been mislead? Should I just shun it like the plague?

(Note: The available factions to be part of for the roleplay include the High Elves, the Wood Elves, the Dwarves, the Lizardmen, the Empire, Bretonnia, the Orcs and Goblins, possibly the Ogre Kingdoms. The Undead, Dark Elves, Skaven and Chaos factions have been banned for balance reasons.)

They allow Orks, but not Chaos? Orks are one of the main enemies of the Empire, and are likey to be lynched on sight if they travel in numbers less than 7.

How they (Orks) know there are at least 7 Orks in a single group is beyond me though.

In all, the Warhammer Fantasy system takes the whole Crapsack World and dials it up to 11, while putting a comedic spin on things. If your DM plays exactly by the books, you can expect to be diseased with some kind of comedically twisted form of herpes by the end of the third session at the very least. If he runs it like the novels based on the background though, it would be far more gritty and less of a huge joke.

Darrin
2008-12-15, 08:47 AM
I like playing Lawful Good, Superman-esque characters, who always try to do the right thing, and everything I've heard seems to indicate that characters with such personalities are not welcome in Warhammer. A friend has recommended playing a High Elf, Wood Elf or a Bretonnian, but everything I've read about those isn't exactly rosy.


2nd Edition WFRP is actually a bit more bright and shiny than the previous edition, particularly for the Empire. This is a nod towards the theme for the current incarnation of Warhammer Fantasy Battles: not every single important person in the Empire is secretly a mutant chaos cultist. So yes, there is room for a few goodie-two-shoes "taste my righteousnes, chaos-scum!" paladin-types. There are some WFB personalities that swing that way.

Which may not help you if your GM is of the old-school variety and prefers the dark and gritty background from the 1st Edition. Ask him what his preferences are, and bounce some character ideas off of him. He should be able to tell you wether your character concept will fit or not.

And I'd second the Bretonnian suggestion. Lots of knights from over there, they should fit your "heroic" mold perfectly. The background on the Knights of the Grail leaves it an open question whether or not the Goddess they worship is divinely inspired or some eff'ed up chaos demon. You can also act all snooty, and if anything too dark and gritty gets in your face, you can loudly proclaim, "Well, in Bretonnia, *our* mutants at least have enough self-respect not to soil all over themselves!"

Tyrmatt
2008-12-15, 08:48 AM
Everything I've known of Warhammer paints a picture of people with 2 sides, Dark and Light.
Are the Brettonians an idealistic race of humans, fighting off violent aggressors or Imperialist zealots, bent on forcing their version of morality on everyone?

Are Chaos the dark spawn of a foul god who seeks to undo the miracle of life or are they the balancing force in the universe, preventing corrupt law and order from costing people their souls? (Yeah this one is a stretch, but the average Chaos berzerker cares not a jot for his God, only for the pure fury of battle.)

Are the Vampire counts noble vassals who raise their most loyal servants to serve them forever in undeath, rewarding them with immunity to the judgement of the Gods or vile undead creatures, bent on creating a twisted fascimile of life to serve their whims?

Are the Orcs (pre-40k = spelling it right damnit) a violent race of animals who happen to walk like men or are they on the cusp of developing an ordered society when the Brettonians march in and force them to take up arms?

Getting the picture? The character is what you make it, entirely put on by your perspective. You can be a righteous warrior of the Brettonians who abhors corruption and injustice or you can be a zealot "paladin" torturing captured foes and stomping over developing factions.

Avilan the Grey
2008-12-15, 09:13 AM
They allow Orks, but not Chaos? Orks are one of the main enemies of the Empire, and are likey to be lynched on sight if they travel in numbers less than 7.
How they (Orks) know there are at least 7 Orks in a single group is beyond me though.

Because instinctively they realize they are now part of a minimum sized WAAAGH!

Duh.

:smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 09:29 AM
I see. Well, I guess I'll join. We're using a free-form system (mainly because the GM doesn't have the books, and doesn't want to be hassled with them).

The basic rule is something like this:


You could play as anything on the army list with the exception of monsters, war machines, chariots and mounts. You would (most likely) be the champion model for the unit or be a character model. If you would like to play a monster, something from the background or anything else that seems like it wouldnt quite fit then make a case for it.

The only other person who's in at the moment is playing a Kislev, either a Winged Lancer, or Horse Archer.

I'll probably play a Bretonnian.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 09:31 AM
I see. Well, I guess I'll join. We're using a free-form system (mainly because the GM doesn't have the books, and doesn't want to be hassled with them).

The basic rule is something like this:



The only other person who's in at the moment is playing a Kislev, either a Winged Lancer, or Horse Archer.

I'll probably play a Bretonnian.

Where and on what medium is this game taking place? And is he going for the more heroic feel that you are wanting?

I might be interested in joining.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 09:33 AM
It's taking place online, play-by-post style I suppose you could call it. Just follow the link to "The Respite" in my sig, and look under the "Other RPs" section. It's still in it's formative stages, so actual roleplay hasn't started yet. We'd love to have you. We're always on the lookout for new players! :smallsmile:

Kizara
2008-12-15, 09:47 AM
Check your PMs OPer.

Darth Stabber
2008-12-15, 09:56 AM
Paladin is definitly a doable option. Though if I were to play in WFRP, I would stick closer to an extremist spin. The crusader bent on converting all to his way of viewing things. One who can't really tell good from evil, but can sure tell if someone worships different from him. But that's just me, Ive played that in dnd, with a fighter who firmly believed he was a paladin. He was an adherent of some random setting specific deity, and even if you worshiped him, if you didn't worship the same way he did, oh boy were you in for a smiting (Really just a power attack, but he thought that he was using smite). Also did a d20 Modern/Future of WH40k before the 40k rpg book was published. Played an inquisitor who didn't believe that the emperor was a divine being, but still fought to makesure others didn't find out, because the emperor was the banner that people rallied behind, its what gave the empire hope and inspiration, and without the worship and the Eclesiarchy(the name of the state church in 40k) the empire would splinter and man kind would fall. Most of my characters development was an exercize in comming to grips with that realization. So that is something to consider given that the church of sigmar in WH fantasy is very similar to the church of the emperor in 40k.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 10:01 AM
As a Bretonnian though, that won't be much of an issue for me. And it's not like the Empire worships every emperor. Sigmar was more than just that. He made the Empire, and that's what they worship him for, if my understanding is correct.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-15, 10:46 AM
While it has already been said that Warhammer Fantasy is brighter than 40k, and 2e is brighter than 1e, I will mention something unusual: in Poland, for a long, long time WFRP 1e was the default RPG system almost everyone played, just like DND in the US for the past God-knows-how-many years. This resulted in Poles playing the game differently than the rest of the world - while everywhere else people played grim and horrible adventures where characters are constantly covered in crap and can feel lucky if they survive, here it was just a low fantasy system where lethality is higher than post-second level DND, and magic items aren't easy to stumble into, but the tone of games varied from dark to downright cheerful, just like with other games.

It's worth noting that official supplements aren't all grimdark either - in most of the published adventures, the characters are hired to do some good deed. And they succeed.

comicshorse
2008-12-15, 10:56 AM
As a Brettonian your character will probably worship The Lady, but you might also consider Solkan as being an approriate diety for your character type

Morty
2008-12-15, 11:01 AM
Another option for a "brighter" character would be someone from Estalia- for people there, Chaos is much less intimidating than for the people of the Empire, since they live futher to the south, away from the Chaos Wastes.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 11:06 AM
As far as I can tell, Estalia isn't an option. What is Estalia like, anyhow?

hewhosaysfish
2008-12-15, 11:11 AM
The background on the Knights of the Grail leaves it an open question whether or not the Goddess they worship is divinely inspired or some eff'ed up chaos demon.

I recall leafing through a copy of a rulebook from one of the earlier editions of Warhammer (forget which one) and being intrigued to notice that you could have Daemons of concepts/ideals other than Chaos. Daemons of Order or Evil (which was distinct from Chaos) or even Good! Daemons are given form by the dreams and emotions of the intelligent races, after all, so it makes a certain amount of sense.
Of course, now Chaos is The Source Of Daemons And All Other Nastiness (TM) and Order is simply the name chosen by those who band together against it (including, at certain junctures, Count Von Carstein :smallbiggrin:).
I wonder what happened to all those Good Daemons? Did it turn out to be all big deception by Tzeentch all along? Was there not a high enough level of Hope and Love in the world to sustain them and they all starved? Maybe they all got et by Nurglings, who most certainly don't fight fair or nice.


But anyway, to the OP:

[lengthy preamble]
I would say there is a certain confusion in the vibe of Warhammer. The fiction and the RPG tend to try and focus on the grim and gritty aspect of it; the material surrounding wargame itself wobbles backward and forwards between trying to match the dark tone of the setting and trying to incorporate the crazy things that the designers made up apparently just for the lulz (Squigs, the Halfling Hotpot, Bologs the Giant, etc).

If you can avoid all mention and thought of the wacky stuff, however, then you're left with a world of black versus grey morality.

The forces of Chaos may possibly contain the occasional tragic figure with some sympathetic traits (e.g. child born with some minor deformity, hated and feared by his family and neighbours, eventually blamed for some misfortune like a sick cow or something, chased from town by angry mob, joins pack of mutants and Beastmen deep in the forest, they're the only ones who've ever sympathised with him) but even those are still fundamentally unpleasant people (e.g. joins his newfound friends in worshipping the Ruinous powers, leads them in an attack on the hometown that spurned him, kills all within its walls and makes his mother's skin into a cloak) and the problems that led to their fall from grace can usually be traced back to other agents/forces of Chaos anyway (e.g. mutation of the chosen is a hallark of Chaos and it's entirely possible they were reponsible for the sick cow and/or the casting of blame on the child too) as Chaos is ulitmately led by literal embodiments of the fears of mankind.

Ranged against this horde of Daemons, mutants, madmen and murderers are various nations and factions who usually squabble amongst themselves but when faced with a serious threat from Chaos will refer to themselves collectively as order and join ranks to defend their homes.

[/lengthy preamble]
Despite being in opposition to such a model of degeneracy as Chaos, the humans, dwarves, elves, etc. of the Warhammer world are not paragons of virtue.
They are as fully capable as real people in the real world of selfishness, hatred, spite, corruption and various other forms of evil. This is, I think, the best way of understanding the moral character of the Warhammer world as a whole: It is much the same as the real world, both good and bad, except in the areas where Chaos intervenes, where it becomes worse in. And Chaos likes to stick its nose in everywhere.
This is not to say that good people with good intentions cannot and do not exist. But they will have to overcome ignorance, deception and misfortune to see which path is right and they will have to battle against temptation, the self-interest of others and malignant supernatural forces in order to walk that path.
Good luck with that.

Morty
2008-12-15, 11:13 AM
It's Italy in disguise, to be brief. Old World is heavily stylized, as you have most likely noticed.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-15, 11:17 AM
I thought Tilea was Italy, and Estalia is Spain?

Morty
2008-12-15, 11:19 AM
I thought Tilea was Italy, and Estalia is Spain?

Hm. Guess you're right. It's been a while since I've read that section of the rulebook. Yeah, Tilea is Italy.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 01:44 PM
Do they have an official book? That seems to be the basis our game-master is using.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 01:50 PM
Here are some concepts I've outlined for his WH game, tell me what you think.

C&P the post from his forums:


Greetings.

I met Zousha on the GitP forums and he grabbed my interest to your WH game.

He said that you would be interested in another player, and I was hoping I could join you.

I have read your OP, and had some character ideas. Please tell me if any of these are acceptable and if I seem to be suitable to play with you.


Idea 1:

Human Chaplin
You know 3.5 DnD's cleric class? As close to that as possible. I have seen many WH movies/cutscenes that featured a human chaplin fighting some kind of demon, getting owned, then empowering himself with divine energy for a second wind; and then dieing anyways. That is the sort of thing I would like, preferably without the dieing anyways part. :)

-Great Melee ability
-Limited Magic, but with strong healing and restorative abilities.
-Limited Use (like Per-day or something) divine empowerment abilities
-Fairly tough, especially with healing abilities.
-Particularly adept at fighting monsters and demons.


Idea 2:

High Elf Dragon Mage
Support caster that flies around on his lesser dragon. Fairly squishy but able to perform powerful feats of magic.

-Lesser Dragon still formidable creature, has breath weapon, fearsome, etc
-Potent spellcasting, with blasting, control and some buff spells.
-Pretty vulnerable, relying on magic for defense/keeping enemies away and the dragon's mobility.


Idea 3:

High Elf Dragon Lord
Powerful Lord character riding a greater dragon with strong fighting abilities.

-Powerful in melee, decent at ranged combat as well (bow)
-Minor spellcasting, with healing and restoration for himself and his mount.
-Magical items/equipment
-Fairly tough with magical heavy armor, but no ogre chieftain. (he has high offense, lowish defense)
-Good resistance to special attacks, fear, chaos, etc via equipment and general power.
-Possibly commands troops, rules a settlement, or the like.


Idea 4:

Human Bright Mage
Very, very good at blowing things up. Some buffing/restoration/healing.

-BOOM!
-...
-Profit. :)


You may note that none of my character ideas are run-of-the-mill footmen, half-crazy and diseased psykers or the like. I don't want to play an incapable or feeble character. I realize WH isn't DnD, and it doesn't have as 'heroic' character power. Its a more lethal and grittier setting, so I want a character that can handle it and won't die the first time battle is joined. :)

Another note is that I have a passing familiarity with WH fluff/setting, but not the extensive knowledge most do. That's part of the reason I'm sticking to fairly fantasy familar races so that I won't be as badly ignorant of their fluff. So, I would need a bit of prompting/instruction at times and will be asking questions if we encounter things I have no knowledge of. I hope I can join your game and we can work something out. :)

Morty
2008-12-15, 01:54 PM
Do they have an official book? That seems to be the basis our game-master is using.

If you mean WFB then no, they don't, but they feature in Dogs of War army. Of course, I don't play Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 01:57 PM
Neither do I. I'm more of an armchair scholar when it comes to wargames in general. Interested purely in the fluff rather than the crunch.

bosssmiley
2008-12-15, 03:06 PM
Right, this may come as a shock to those who only know the Warhammer World as GRIMDARK+swords, but WFRP is actually one of the greatest comedy RPGs ever made.

Yes, I said comedy RPG. No, I'm not kidding.

Crack open any of the rulebooks, fluffbooks or (even better) the early 90s novels and you'll find gallows humour, absurdism, puns, in-jokes, pop-culture references and cheesy howlers galore. That much humour does not get into the books by mistake.

Forget heroic fantasy. Forget your grim, macho swords-and-sorcery fantasy. Heck, forget "grim darkness...only war". Picture WFRP as a Terry Gilliam movie and you're actually a lot closer to the mark. WFRP is little more than "Paranoia" set in a crapsack 16th century where everything Bosch and Durer at their most perverse created is real.

The keynote phrase of WFRP is "The laughter of dark gods". The whole point of the game is to enjoy your squalid life as a Baldrickite cosmic buttmonkey doomed to a hilariously inglorious Hobbesian fate.

Sure, you can use WFRP to play the shining knight or the mighty wizard archetypes, but that's not the game's USP. Remember: if you ain't being spat on by syphilitic nobles or getting shanked by Skaven in a sewer then yer doin' it wrong! :smalltongue:

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 05:28 PM
So it's essentially Monty Python and The Holy Grail is what you're saying.

Morty
2008-12-15, 05:34 PM
So it's essentially Monty Python and The Holy Grail is what you're saying.

It might very well be.

KIDS
2008-12-15, 06:27 PM
Warhammer was always very interesting, but it also struck me as something intentionally exaggerated without too much connection between all of its bizzare/extreme details. I always had the nagging sense that its factions/ideas had been created like that just to subvert something for the sake of subverting it.
Kind of like a surrealistic painting (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/db/L'Ange_du_Foyeur.jpg) which borders on Emperor's new clothes :)

Greg
2008-12-15, 06:33 PM
I like playing Lawful Good, Superman-esque characters, who always try to do the right thing, and everything I've heard seems to indicate that characters with such personalities are not welcome in Warhammer. A friend has recommended playing a High Elf, Wood Elf or a Bretonnian, but everything I've read about those isn't exactly rosy.
Surely Dwarf works better? If you play it kindly, anyway.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 08:17 PM
Well High Elves, Bretonnians and Wood Elves were what were reccomended to me, so I just picked between those because my knowledge of any factions limited.

And it turns out the reason the GM's allowing greenskins is simply because he thinks they're freakin' awesome. I don't deny that, but they're a bit too brutish for my tastes with all that WAAAGH! and stuff.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-15, 10:29 PM
Right, this may come as a shock to those who only know the Warhammer World as GRIMDARK+swords, but WFRP is actually one of the greatest comedy RPGs ever made.

Yes, I said comedy RPG. No, I'm not kidding.

I have to endorse this to a degree. Canterbury Tales is very Warhammer Fantasy, for instance. Jabberwocky is, too. It can be both grim and dirty and silly.

toasty
2008-12-15, 10:44 PM
The keynote phrase of WFRP is "The laughter of dark gods". The whole point of the game is to enjoy your squalid life as a Baldrickite cosmic buttmonkey doomed to a hilariously inglorious Hobbesian fate.

Sure, you can use WFRP to play the shining knight or the mighty wizard archetypes, but that's not the game's USP. Remember: if you ain't being spat on by syphilitic nobles or getting shanked by Skaven in a sewer then yer doin' it wrong! :smalltongue:

This is true to a degree. Its funny, but in a GRIMDARK way. Its corruption to the point where the drunken mayor orders everyone must wear blue on Tuesdays.

The key is to remember that it is GRIMDARK though... even if it does have its moments of humor.

I suggest no playing an elf. Unless you want to get abused by "ear tax" a lot... unless your GM doesn't actually have such a thing. A brettionan crusading knightesque character could work very well.

Kizara
2008-12-15, 11:04 PM
This is true to a degree. Its funny, but in a GRIMDARK way. Its corruption to the point where the drunken mayor orders everyone must wear blue on Tuesdays.

The key is to remember that it is GRIMDARK though... even if it does have its moments of humor.

I suggest no playing an elf. Unless you want to get abused by "ear tax" a lot... unless your GM doesn't actually have such a thing. A brettionan crusading knightesque character could work very well.

Heh, I'm a High-Elf Sword Master of Hoeth. :P

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-15, 11:27 PM
What's an ear tax?:smallconfused:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-16, 12:23 AM
What's an ear tax?:smallconfused:

A tax for oversized ears. X coins per ear, on pain of removal of said ears.

There's also beard taxes, belt taxes (not coming up to a man's belt), and all sorts of other ad hoc taxes. Of course, these are not applied only to non-humans; strangers or people from more than a day's walk away are likely to meet almost as much prejudice as non-humans.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-16, 01:44 AM
I'm gonna be a Bretonnian nobleman. I'm most likely exempt from taxation.

Coidzor
2008-12-16, 01:53 AM
Watch out for your relatives, then. and strange men with beards that hide in the forest and name themselves after birds.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-16, 09:18 AM
Please explain.

hamishspence
2008-12-16, 09:27 AM
Merlin, Arthur.

Bretonnia was at its most Arthurian in the previous version of the army book- heroic peasant, quests, becomes knight. Lady of the Lake. Green Knight. and so on. In the most recent book, however, we are told that there have been three peasant Knight Errants in the whole history of Bretonnia, and the most recent one died unpleasantly on his quest to become a Knight of the Realm.

Even so, it doesn't follow the Arthur myth exactly- the equvalent character didn't have an evil son/nephew, the Mordred character doesn't appear till a few centuries later in the Affair of the False Grail.

there is a Morgana character (the Fey Enchantress), ally of the realm, but in most recent Wood Elf book its strongly implied that she is an Elf, there to keep the Kingdom behaving itself.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-16, 10:30 AM
I think Coidzor was also referring to Bretonnia's Robin Hood -analogue.

For whatever reason, Bretonnia is both France and England. It makes sense, considering the Arthurian legends were originally French tales (bugger me if I know whether they were set in France). The actual Albion is apparently mostly Celtic Britain (rather than the Dark Ages/Medieval England that Bretonnia is) and Ireland.

hamishspence
2008-12-16, 10:35 AM
yes- Robin Hood, Little John, Friar Tuck, but in French. Still, can't remember a Robin Hood character with the name of a bird.

Repanse de Lyonesse- thinly veiled Joan of Arc analog.

and the district names are right out of medieval France.

Skaven
2008-12-16, 01:44 PM
I love Warhammer.. it feels so very realistic to me, compared to many fantasy settings.

A real world has dubious morals and corruption in society, and so should a fantasy setting that expects to be realistic.

I would argue that being a Paladin type isnt undoable.. as long as you are not lawful stupid. I would expect a true Paladin would not be swayed off the path of a Paladin by seeing the cause as 'undoable'.

*cough* You have waaarpstone..? I needs it.. and I'll either kill you fors it, or kill someone for you for it. ;)

Thane of Fife
2008-12-16, 02:43 PM
yes- Robin Hood, Little John, Friar Tuck, but in French. Still, can't remember a Robin Hood character with the name of a bird.

Umm... Robin?

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-16, 04:10 PM
Okay, I've gotten my character set up, and now I'm coming up with a backstory. Could I get some basic information to help create it? You know, the sort of thing any Bretonnian knight-errant would know about the country and about the world in general?

I've got a name for him, Naimon de Viterbo, but that's about it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-16, 09:06 PM
I was thinking about having him be "marked" by the Lady of the Lake as a child, his tears permanently staining his cheeks, leading to him being called "the Mournful Knight" or something like that. How active is the Lady in Bretonnia? Does she make actual physical appearances or just distantly control things?

Tehnar
2008-12-16, 09:26 PM
Watch out for dem killer mushrooms. Waaagh!

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-16, 11:36 PM
Killer mushrooms? Is that referring to the theory that the Orcs of Warhammer are the same species as the Orks of Warhammer 40,000? I thought that theory was jossed by the creators.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-17, 02:24 AM
Yes, orcs in WFRP != orks in WH40K. Elves didn't create Slaanesh, either.

Out of curiosity, is it still impossible to kill any decently tough, unarmored character with a single crossbow shot in 2e?

bosssmiley
2008-12-17, 04:57 AM
Out of curiosity, is it still impossible to kill any decently tough, unarmored character with a single crossbow shot in 2e?

I don't think so. IIRC weapons now use 1d10+Str+{applicable weapon qualities modifier} for their damage instead of the old 1d6+Str+Mod of 1E. A crossbow now will do something like 1d10+4+{whatever} damage to an unarmoured person. I *think* that averages out in auto-crit territory for almost any first career character...

Armour in 2E is also much more significant (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=199) compared to one's Toughness bonus (full plate is +5AP now, rather than +2AP).

Semi-related: there's an interesting 'one roll' combat variant for WFRP 2E here (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=29). The average damage increasing by skill level and the high damage = gut/headshot aspects are particularly elegant IMO.

SmartAlec
2008-12-17, 05:11 AM
How active is the Lady in Bretonnia? Does she make actual physical appearances or just distantly control things?

She makes actual physical appearances, but not before crowds, usually. Deep, deep in the forests, near pools and lakes, away from civilisation - that's the places where she usually appears. The most documented are her appearances before Questing Knights who have passed the trials set before them, defeated the Green Knight in combat, and are ready to become Grail Knights. Besides that, she generally sticks to visions.

It's been hinted at that the Lady of the Lake is in fact Ariel, the Queen of the Wood Elves.

It should be noted that Bretonnia is just as hot when it comes to burning mutants and such as the Empire is - they may not have witch hunters and the like, but they're big on mobs. Frankly, that SHE'S A WITCH sketch in Monty Python and the Holy Grail is dead-on. Mutated offspring amongst the nobility is less of a hooha - but is more like to end up with a quiet drowning of the child and everyone trying to forget about it. Physical oddities will be considered weird, at best.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-17, 05:47 AM
I don't think so. IIRC weapons now use 1d10+Str+{applicable weapon qualities modifier} for their damage instead of the old 1d6+Str+Mod of 1E. A crossbow now will do something like 1d10+4+{whatever} damage to an unarmoured person. I *think* that averages out in auto-crit territory for almost any first career character...

Armour in 2E is also much more significant (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=199) compared to one's Toughness bonus (full plate is +5AP now, rather than +2AP).

Semi-related: there's an interesting 'one roll' combat variant for WFRP 2E here (http://www.hackslash.net/?p=29). The average damage increasing by skill level and the high damage = gut/headshot aspects are particularly elegant IMO.

Moreover, every hit has a 10% chance of triggering Ulric's Fury - that is, if you roll 10, you roll again and add it up. That's going to crit anyone, pretty much. (This is why firearms and two-handed weapons are really powerful: roll 2d10, use the higher. That's a 19% chance to trigger Ulric's Fury. Their average damage ends up about 2.5 or so higher than other weapons with the same S.)

Morty
2008-12-17, 09:44 AM
I've seen much debate about the connections between Warhammer Fantasy Orcs and W40K Orks. Most WFRPG fans seem to resent the idea of orcs being mushrooms, canon or not. I tend to agree with them.

SmartAlec
2008-12-17, 09:47 AM
Most WFRPG fans seem to resent the idea of orcs being mushrooms, canon or not.

The company line at the moment is No, the Warhammer World is not in the 40K universe.

Oslecamo
2008-12-17, 10:57 AM
I've seen much debate about the connections between Warhammer Fantasy Orcs and W40K Orks. Most WFRPG fans seem to resent the idea of orcs being mushrooms, canon or not. I tend to agree with them.

Gamesworkshop themselves have said several times that Orks have no relation whatsoever with Orcs.

Altough it makes one wonder, where the WH orcs come from? I still have to see a female fantasy orc.

Morty
2008-12-17, 11:03 AM
The company line at the moment is No, the Warhammer World is not in the 40K universe.

Is it? So this is why I haven't seen any of those debates in a while.


I still have to see a female fantasy orc.

Well, fantasy orcs are cannon fodder and it's a bit disturbing to get treasure and XP from women and children.
But in all seriousness, the most logical explanation is that players encounter orc males who go out fighting while orc women sit back in the caves or villages and raise children, so the players don't meet them that often.

Oslecamo
2008-12-17, 11:14 AM
But in all seriousness, the most logical explanation is that players encounter orc males who go out fighting while orc women sit back in the caves or villages and raise children, so the players don't meet them that often.

Well, since in the WH universe everybody is killing everybody all the time, the only logical explanation to how each faction manages to keep their numbers stable is indeed that the females of each faction work day and night in some hidden place raising childrens to be sent to the frontline.

Morty
2008-12-17, 11:18 AM
Well, since in the WH universe everybody is killing everybody all the time, the only logical explanation to how each faction manages to keep their numbers stable is indeed that the females of each faction work day and night in some hidden place raising childrens to be sent to the frontline.

Here we have to draw a line betweem WFB and WFRPG. In the RPG rulebooks, it's not implied that everyone is killing everyone else on a scale we see in WFB.

JBento
2008-12-17, 11:34 AM
Badmouth not the orcs, for they (as I understand it) were the Empire's salvation in the next-to-last Chaos Invasion (that is, the one before the on-line game)

Juhn
2008-12-17, 12:00 PM
the Lizardmen

This intrigues me and I wish to hear more. The primary reason I've never really looked into WFRP is because you were limited to human, elf, dwarf, or halfling - at least from what I know.

comicshorse
2008-12-17, 12:51 PM
Badmouth not the orcs, for they (as I understand it) were the Empire's salvation in the next-to-last Chaos Invasion (that is, the one before the on-line game)

I thought that was the Vampires ?

thorgrim29
2008-12-17, 01:25 PM
Both.... Crom the conqueror's army was mired in Sylvania for ages and Grimgor decided he didn't want to take orders from spiky gits any more and trashed Archaon to an inch of his life just as he was about to finish Valten. Grimgor then spit on Archaon, said something like "I'm the baddest mother****er in this setting biatch" and left.

Also, people seem to think dwarves are "good", that is not true, dwarves in warhammer are smack between lawful neutral and lawful evil. They're better then the alternative, because they typically give you a chance before killing you on sight, but they've been known to torch a village because the mayors great great great uncle refused to serve a dwarf or some other nonsense.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 01:31 PM
This intrigues me and I wish to hear more. The primary reason I've never really looked into WFRP is because you were limited to human, elf, dwarf, or halfling - at least from what I know.

This is more a freeform roleplay, drawing from the army figurines used in Warhammer Fantasy Battles. I don't know the specific rules of that or those of the roleplaying game. According to what I've read, the Lizardmen are the oldest race in the world, and were created by the "Old Ones" for one purpose. Fighting the forces of Chaos. They have a sort of Mesoamerican culture. The guy I mentioned playing the Kislev has changed his mind and is now playing a Saurus lizardman who was enslaved by the Dark Elves and has been offered his freedom if he serves them, an offer he's begrudgingly accepted.

Juhn
2008-12-17, 01:42 PM
I know about the Lizardmen - I play em in WFB. I meant I was wondering how you were going to incorporate them into WFRP. They tend to stick to Lustria, from what I know, and I don't really know how that fellow is playing a Saurus, as in DnD terms its INT score would be something like 2. They're bred for battle, and that's all they can really do. They can't really comprehend anything else. Now Skinks, on the other hand...

thorgrim29
2008-12-17, 01:54 PM
The jaguar warrior of death begs to differ. And his pal the flying skink of DOOM! Agrees with him.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 04:25 PM
I know about the Lizardmen - I play em in WFB. I meant I was wondering how you were going to incorporate them into WFRP. They tend to stick to Lustria, from what I know, and I don't really know how that fellow is playing a Saurus, as in DnD terms its INT score would be something like 2. They're bred for battle, and that's all they can really do. They can't really comprehend anything else. Now Skinks, on the other hand...

He was bred differently, from what I understand, and the reason he's not in Lustria is because the Slaan sent him to the other continent to recover artifacts from the Dark Elves, who captured him.

hamishspence
2008-12-17, 04:29 PM
saurus, from what I remember, while very single minded, aren't animal intelligence, just very focussed.

Lizardmen come from the other continent too- the Southlands is a lizardman zone. And they get Horned ones- brighter, lighter built, bipedal Cold Ones.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 04:43 PM
What worries me most is that the group is going to tear itself apart because of infighting almost as soon as it meets. My character's a perpetually depressed Bretonnian knight-errant, seeking redemption for his family's sins (they were connected to the Duke of Mousillon), and the rest of the group consists of a High Elf Swordmaster of Hoeth, a Dark Elf Sorceress who owns the afformentioned Saurus, and another character is a Mousillon-born woman who learned magic in the Empire, was captured by the Skaven, driven insane and then reprogrammed to be some sort of mage-assassin fanatically devoted to the Skaven (and the player has asked if her character can be the sister of mine!:smalleek:). And apparently we'll be joined by a vampire and one person's said he'll play if they allow Chaos, since he likes demons.

I'm scared, to say the least. My character's gonna get eaten alive, and that's if he's lucky!:smallannoyed:

Tengu_temp
2008-12-17, 04:52 PM
Free the high elf, together kill everyone else in their sleep.

Seriously, very good and evil characters don't work well, no matter the setting.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 05:03 PM
I know. I get the feeling I may just have to quit after all. If I have to struggle against the rest of the party all the time since I have principles and they don't, I might as well not bother.

Artanis
2008-12-17, 05:25 PM
I'm scared, to say the least. My character's gonna get eaten alive, and that's if he's lucky!:smallannoyed:
That's pretty much the Warhammer universe in a nutshell.

Tengu_temp
2008-12-17, 05:37 PM
That's pretty much the Warhammer universe in a nutshell.

I disagree. The only systems where it's default that players should be suspicious of other PCs are Paranoia and Cyberpunk/Shadowrun. In Warhammer most groups should have compatible worldviews just like in DND. Most groups are much less, ahem, colorful than the one presented here - it smells a lot like WFB to me, to be honest, which, as people mentioned before, has different flavour than WFRP.

Not to mention that a dark elf in the open would probably get flayed alive in any human/dwarf/other elf type land.

SmartAlec
2008-12-17, 05:39 PM
If I have to struggle against the rest of the party all the time since I have principles and they don't, I might as well not bother.

Oh, it's not just you. The High Elf and the Dark Elf should by rights try to kill each other on sight; the Skaven-crazy woman likely should try to kill the demon, should it be wearing any warpstone trinkets; and hey, the vampire's got to eat...

And then there's the problem that there is no town, city or village anywhere in the world where no party member is in danger of a lynching.

This party could just about make sense in Planescape. In WFRP, not so much.

Morty
2008-12-17, 05:40 PM
That's pretty much the Warhammer universe in a nutshell.

Wrong. What Zousha Omenohu describes isn't any different than LG character in a group of CE Black Mage ripoffs in D&D. Or the equivalent in any other system.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 05:43 PM
I disagree. The only systems where it's default that players should be suspicious of other PCs are Paranoia and Cyberpunk/Shadowrun. In Warhammer most groups should have compatible worldviews just like in DND. Most groups are much less, ahem, colorful than the one presented here - it smells a lot like WFB to me, to be honest, which, as people mentioned before, has different flavour than WFRP.

Not to mention that a dark elf in the open would probably get flayed alive in any human/dwarf/other elf type land.

Don't be surprised that it smells like WFB. We're not actually using WFRP rules. It's a freeform RP, and we're basing our characters on models for WFB, instead of creating unique ones. We were basically told to look at the army lists and pick a figurine we liked. I'm not sure if the dark elf is gonna be there or not. They're supposed to be banned for balance reasons, like Chaos and Skaven. The only real reason the Dark Elf may be there is because the Lizardman's character works for the Dark Elves.

I just realized that if that's true, then it means the majority of the characters will either be outright Chaos types, or working with Chaos types. It makes me wonder if I should just play an ogre or something and be evil too, since everyone else except Kizara and me either wants to be completely evil or, like the Lizardman, amoral enough to be willing to work with evil.

Artanis
2008-12-17, 05:44 PM
...which is why I only quoted the part about being eaten alive, and not the part about being paranoid about his own party.


Edit: Bah, ninja'd. This is in response to Tengu and M0rt

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 05:47 PM
And it doesn't look like we'll have a vampire, so that's a relief.

Morty
2008-12-17, 05:49 PM
...which is why I only quoted the part about being eaten alive, and not the part about being paranoid about his own party.


Right, only the part about being eaten alive also applies mostly to "colorful" groups like the one described here. The GRIMDARK view of Warhammer is very often exagerrated.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 05:51 PM
That's something the lizardman's player has spent a lot of time convincing me of. I had a bad impression of Warhammer from Tv Tropes, only to be shown that it was inaccurate, and sometimes even false.

He tells me not to worry about the evil characters because they'll be in disguise, and that the guy running it probably won't allow a demon anyhow.

Oslecamo
2008-12-17, 06:00 PM
Right, only the part about being eaten alive also applies mostly to "colorful" groups like the one described here. The GRIMDARK view of Warhammer is very often exagerrated.

One friend of mine bought the Warhammer MMO game deluxe box.

It came with a WH comic to introduce people to the seting.

Some highlights:
1-Chaos servants slaughtering each other to get the atention of their dieties.
2-Humans prefering to attack the inquisition and get themselves killed that way instead of waiting for the chaos forces to arrive at their lands.
3-A mighty orc warboss who, faced with the surrended of a lesser warboss wich he wanted to attack, orders his troops to butcher and eat the tribe wich surrendered, because he trusts no orc who refuses to fight.
4-Dwarfes geting themselves slaughtered by rows holding the line for their miners to get some precious metal for their special weapons.

So, did the comic exagerate?

thorgrim29
2008-12-17, 06:20 PM
1-Chaos servants slaughtering each other to get the atention of their dieties.
2-Humans prefering to attack the inquisition and get themselves killed that way instead of waiting for the chaos forces to arrive at their lands.
3-A mighty orc warboss who, faced with the surrended of a lesser warboss wich he wanted to attack, orders his troops to butcher and eat the tribe wich surrendered, because he trusts no orc who refuses to fight.
4-Dwarfes geting themselves slaughtered by rows holding the line for their miners to get some precious metal for their special weapons.

So, did the comic exagerate?

1: No, not at all, chaos are like the orcs, they fight each other more often then the other armies, and only (mostly) unite once in a very great while and almost take over the world.

2: Dunno, depends on the humans, they're not all Sigmarites after all

3: Nope, Grimgor killed half his army once because they were too weak, and then he carved a mountain into a statue of Gork (or maybe Mork) with his axe. orcs are crazy like that.

4: Well, that would depend on the metal.... Getting killed to defend a mine, sure, getting killed to save the miners? also reasonable (tough the miners would probably join in and get killed too). Getting killed so a huge quantity of refined Gromril reaches a forge? Yeah... Dwarves are pretty big about getting killed while defending stuff, almost as much as they like killing **** while defending stuff.

Artanis
2008-12-17, 06:26 PM
Right, only the part about being eaten alive also applies mostly to "colorful" groups like the one described here. The GRIMDARK view of Warhammer is very often exagerrated.
Maybe you're right. It's just that when I look at Warhammer, what I see is:

-Eventually, Chaos is going to overrun everybody.
-Even if it doesn't, it'll bring down the Empire from within, letting them overrun everybody.
-Even if THAT doesn't happen, there's others like the Skaven who will overrun everybody.
-And to help all of this along, there's even more guys like the Orcs who can seriously mess up the forces of Order, even if they don't overrun them.
-And when Order gets a respite? They start fighting each other.

Basically, I see a world where no matter what you do, you lose. You can be the greatest champion of Good the world has ever seen, and not only will you lose, but your death will be unspeakably horrible and in vain.

Unless, of course, I've missed someplace that says that the people who aren't vicious, often Chaos-twisted murdering beasts have a chance of coming out on top.

Oslecamo
2008-12-17, 06:41 PM
1: No, not at all, chaos are like the orcs, they fight each other more often then the other armies, and only (mostly) unite once in a very great while and almost take over the world.

2: Dunno, depends on the humans, they're not all Sigmarites after all

3: Nope, Grimgor killed half his army once because they were too weak, and then he carved a mountain into a statue of Gork (or maybe Mork) with his axe. orcs are crazy like that.

4: Well, that would depend on the metal.... Getting killed to defend a mine, sure, getting killed to save the miners? also reasonable (tough the miners would probably join in and get killed too). Getting killed so a huge quantity of refined Gromril reaches a forge? Yeah... Dwarves are pretty big about getting killed while defending stuff, almost as much as they like killing **** while defending stuff.

So it is heavy grimdark! Kill or be killed all around (probably both):smallbiggrin:

thorgrim29
2008-12-17, 06:43 PM
It's not as GRIMDARK as 40k, but yeah, it's no happy place. The way I see it, it's a bit like DnD only magic makes you insane if you are too weak willed.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-17, 06:45 PM
Doesn't help is most of my party is evil in disguise anyhow.:smallannoyed:

Oslecamo
2008-12-17, 06:51 PM
It's not as GRIMDARK as 40k, but yeah, it's no happy place. The way I see it, it's a bit like DnD only magic makes you insane if you are too weak willed.

Well, I believe the only reason it's not as grimdark as WH40k it's simply because it's set on only one planet, so there simply isn't space for as much carnage and despair. Also the mages don't seem too bothered to use their powers for anything besides fighting.

Now if only all those mages could stop fighting for some seconds and use their power to craft golems the size of mountains and open portals to new worlds to increase the war level, it could achieve WH40K's level of grimdarkness.:smallcool:

Artanis
2008-12-17, 07:08 PM
It's not as GRIMDARK as 40k, but yeah, it's no happy place. The way I see it, it's a bit like DnD only magic makes you insane if you are too weak willed.
Yeah, in 40K, even Chaos is doomed to guaranteed extinction.

Juhn
2008-12-17, 08:21 PM
the Lizardman, amoral enough to be willing to work with evil.

I'm assuming that this is a highly atypical Saurus, given its intelligence, but Lizardmen aren't amoral. They simply view themselves as "the good guys" who are working toward the Old Ones' ultimate plan. Or, at least, what the Slann are telling them is the will of the Old Ones. As a rule, though, Lizardmen would never associate with Dark Elves, Skaven, or Chaos.

Dark elves in particular have been going on slave-raids to Lustria and trying to steal their people away since before the time of Sigmar. Lizardmen really dislike Dark Elves.

Skaven have been infesting and defiling their lands for at least as long. It got to the point where they summoned a god for the express purpose of killing as many Skaven as possible.

Chaos, well, that one's obvious. They drove off or killed the Old Ones, and the Saurus were effectively bred for the express purpose of fighting Chaos, as you said before.

Saurus would only ever work with any of these groups if ordered to do exactly that by a Slann Mage-Priest, which is not likely to happen. But then, the Slann's motives tend to be rather inscrutable (other than "progress along the Old Ones' plans"), and it seems this particular roleplay is incredibly unothodox to begin with.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 01:25 AM
He was captured by the Dark Elves when he was sent by the Slaan to recover Lizardman artifacts from them. His force was overwhelmed and he was captured and enslaved. He wasn't a willing slave, and more than capable of crushing most "masters" so they decided to "offer" him a chance at freedom by working for the Sorceresses, coupled with "promising" to return Lizardman artifacts to him for exceptional service. He accepted, but what he doesn't know is that they're actually trying to observe him and figure out how to break his will for good, and render him a slave forever. They have no real intention of releasing him or handing over the artifacts. He believes that he has no choice but to do what they want so he can get what he wants, when in fact they're just stringing him along.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 01:40 AM
Just completed a writeup of my character for the roleplay. Thought I'd put it up here for criticism and such. (And yes, the italicized text is blatantly stolen from the Old Code in Dragonheart. In my opinion it's the kind of thing any character I play would say.)

http://fc42.deviantart.com/fs21/i/2007/251/6/0/Swan_Knight___concept_by_what_we_leave_behind.jpg

Naimon de Viterbo, the Mournful Knight of Mousillon

"A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His might upholds the weak. His word speaks only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked."

The Blessing of the Lady
Bretonnian armies have the luxury of a choice at the beginning of every game. If he wishes, a Bretonnian commander can give up the 1st turn to the enemy in return for a 6+ Ward save for his Knightly units (and the Grail Reliquae), which increases to a 5+ Ward save against attacks of S5 or higher.

Lance of the White Lion: +1 move while charging, +1 WS (note that a lance gives +2 str on charge hits, because its a lance)
Golden Full Plate Armor: 4+ save, 5+ ward save, 20% chance to reflect magic back on the caster if the spell is resisted.
Longsword of Biting: +1 str
Large Shield: Improves armor save to 3+, bonus against shooting
Pendant of the Golden Lion: +2 magic resistance.
Warhorse: Medium barding (5+ save), armor spikes (+1 str on charge hits)

Everyone in Bretonnia knows that those nobles who were associated with the mad Duke Merovich of Mousillon fell into ruin, as well as those nobles who ruled Mousillon following him. But surely none has suffered as much as the house of Viterbo. Lord de Viterbo was one of the few of Merovich's nobles who didn't defect to Lyonesse, for despite his lord's madness, he'd sworn an oath to serve him, and no Viterbo had ever broken his word. Viterbo's loyalty, while admirable, in a tragic sort of way, was naturally punished by the Lady of the Lake. Lord de Viterbo's house was cast down in the invasion of Mousillon, and his family was cursed with madness like that of Duke Merovich. For years following, the house of Lord de Viterbo contributed to the decay of Mousillon, becoming bestial wild-men, and attacking villages, seemingly at random. Finally, most of the family had been killed off, except for the twin brothers, Naimon de Viterbo and Ganelon de Viterbo.

Naimon and his brother bore their ancestor's curse of violence and evil, leading a group of bandits who preyed on people who strayed too close to Mousillon. It seemed Naimon would keep killing until he and his brother were killed, ending Lord de Viterbo's line and ending the curse.

But it was not to be. For during a particularly vicious attack, at a lakeside village, Naimon suddenly found himself almost blinded by a bright, dazzling light from the lake. When a beautiful woman emerged from the light, it was almost as if a haze had lifted from his mind. He almost instinctively knew who she was. The Lady of the Lake. She spoke not a word, but approached Naimon, who for the first time in his life was truly afraid. The sounds of the battle seemed muted, he could no longer hear them. He couldn't even see them. The Lady was his entire world for that one moment. She layed a hand on his chest, and almost intantly Naimon felt something stir within him. The Lady had opened his heart for the very first time. The realization of what he had done, and the sins he had commited, shocked him to the core. He began to weep, bitterly, and when he looked up again, the Lady had dissapeared. When one of his men came to ask what he was doing, Naimon didn't even respond. He just stood, tears streaming down his face, as he took up the crude wooden club he'd used since he was a child, and bashed the man's skull in. He did the same to all his other men, stopping them from completing the vile work he'd led them there to do.

By the end of the battle, Naimon had killed almost every last member of his band, except for his brother, Ganelon. He approached him, club in hand, intent on ending his brother's miserable life. But something stayed his hand. What was this newfound feeling he felt? Mercy? Love? He couldn't tell. He kicked his brother roughly and told him to get out before he changed his mind. Ganelon immediately retreated into the woods. There were only a few villagers who'd survived the massacre, and they weren't sure what to make of Naimon. Most of them wanted to kill him on the spot, but a few argued that he deserved mercy, because he had done the right thing in the end.

Naimon didn't hear them, or see them. The Lady had reappeared. He walked towards her, wading into the lake, tears still coming down his face. He knelt before her, arms outstretched, and silently hoped she would end him. But she did not. Instead, she kissed his forehead. Naimon looked up at her, confused, and then she placed her hands on his shoulders. Almost at once, he understood everything. He nodded, and she vanished again. Then he looked at his reflection in the water. Where his tears had flowed down his face, there were now dark streaks. He tried to wash them off, but they didn't come off. Finally he gave up and returned to the shore. He begged the villagers' forgiveness, and they somewhat cautiously allowed him to rest and recover. The next day, he cleaned himself up, and set out for Lyonesse. He knew what he would do. He would become a knight, and dedicate himself to the service of the Lady who had changed him forever. He would restore honor to the name of Lord de Viterbo, and lift the curse that had hounded his family for generations.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 01:44 AM
And apparently the group's even more unusual now. Everyone's provided justifications for their characters. The vampire is "not that evil", the dark elf is reformed and the Skaven serving mage-assassin has no hard ties to the Skaven anymore, who kind of just set her loose. This is getting harder to believe by the minute!

Kizara
2008-12-18, 03:27 AM
If you actually came on AIM and talked to people about it you would know alot more of what was going on.


1) According to Hells, Ayls dropped out. I know, I'm dissapointed too.
EDIT: Nvm, hells is full of it, she just posted. She's still in.

2) Remember that Nik is playing a Shadow Warrior, who is the same tier of HE troop that I am, and their fluff is that they are ranger-types who hunt and scour the land for evil that threatens its inhabitants; primarily DEs.

3) You aren't going to die. Between me, the Shadow Warrior, the Scar-Vet (lizards and HEs are on good terms) and your character, the evil people have 0 chance. The DE mage and vamp are going to have to pray for our indulgence.

4) There will be no consorting with chaos or evil while I'm around. Death to the heratics, purge the unclean!

5) Your backstory is solid. Well done.


Also: Think not with a timid and quaking heart, fear not the darkness that may close in. When the minions of damnation seek your heart, stand and meet them; show them steel; show them conviction; show them victory.

Pilum
2008-12-18, 06:08 AM
"Reformed" Dark Elves aren't unknown... Rare as hen's teeth and probably looking over their shoulder for assassins for what remains of their vile treacherous existence (guess my army :smallbiggrin: ) but the latest army book contains a hint or two at them, usually in context of having fallen foul of Druchii politics or simply growing tired of eternal war. Having a Sword Master and a Shadow Warrior with him/her could be rationalised as the former DE having provided info to Hoeth to avoid instant execution and the SM being sent to check it out - with the ever suspicious SW there to use it's scouting skills too, but also to carry out instant justice should it be necessary.

A 'not-evil' vampire is actually plausible, but would depend on the bloodline. Blood Dragons, for instance, were never *that* into evil, apart from the whole "raise-the-dead-and-drain-blood" thing :smalleek: more about becoming the finest swordsmen in the world to redeem themselves from the Red Thirst. Indeed, there was one story were a bold Bretonnian knight actually drove a Blood Dragon away by, er, getting nearly killed; the vampire being so impressed by his determination to save the village by not running away even when he knew he was outclassed and could not defeat the vampire that it not only let him live but allowed him his honour by leaving the village. Granted, this was only so he could become a "more interesting opponent", and was implied the vampire was an ex-Questing/Grail knight itself with old, sad memories, but still. However if the player's gone Necrarch then things get a bit more... complicated.

And someone asked about orcs. Specifically orc females. Well it's plausible there's just not much difference between the two genders in fluff these days, but there is a rather famous image of them... You may need to bleach your eyes afterwards, but don't say I didn't warn you... :smallwink:

http://www.steve-dean.co.uk/2007-images/gw-bloodbowl/orc-cheerleader.jpg

Morty
2008-12-18, 06:10 AM
So, did the comic exagerate?

Preety much. Of course, there's also the difference between WFB and WFRPG. They're not as similiar as you might think.


Basically, I see a world where no matter what you do, you lose. You can be the greatest champion of Good the world has ever seen, and not only will you lose, but your death will be unspeakably horrible and in vain.

Excpt that in WFRPG you won't be a "champion of good". The best you can achieve is a to be a wealthy, powerful person. In WFRPG, you're not a hero fighting to save the world, so its eventual demise at the hands of chaos, Skaven etc. isn't your personal failure. It's like blaming one person for global warming or volcanic eruption.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 08:50 AM
If you actually came on AIM and talked to people about it you would know alot more of what was going on.


1) According to Hells, Ayls dropped out. I know, I'm dissapointed too.
EDIT: Nvm, hells is full of it, she just posted. She's still in.

2) Remember that Nik is playing a Shadow Warrior, who is the same tier of HE troop that I am, and their fluff is that they are ranger-types who hunt and scour the land for evil that threatens its inhabitants; primarily DEs.

3) You aren't going to die. Between me, the Shadow Warrior, the Scar-Vet (lizards and HEs are on good terms) and your character, the evil people have 0 chance. The DE mage and vamp are going to have to pray for our indulgence.

4) There will be no consorting with chaos or evil while I'm around. Death to the heratics, purge the unclean!

5) Your backstory is solid. Well done.


Also: Think not with a timid and quaking heart, fear not the darkness that may close in. When the minions of damnation seek your heart, stand and meet them; show them steel; show them conviction; show them victory.

Kizara, I keep telling you! My parents won't let me download AIM!

Tsotha-lanti
2008-12-18, 09:01 AM
Kizara, I keep telling you! My parents won't let me download AIM!

Tell them that Dateline is full of bull**** and that pedophiles won't be clamoring at your door just because you downloaded an IM program.


Excpt that in WFRPG you won't be a "champion of good". The best you can achieve is a to be a wealthy, powerful person. In WFRPG, you're not a hero fighting to save the world, so its eventual demise at the hands of chaos, Skaven etc. isn't your personal failure. It's like blaming one person for global warming or volcanic eruption.

Nonsense. Almost all the published adventures are about saving the Empire or the world from Chaos, fighting cultists and demons. In Dying of the Light (a magnificent adventure!), the PCs are trying to prevent the resurrection of the minor Chaos god Zahnartz ("dentist" in German; knowing German makes the names in Warhammer way funnier). The other published adventures and campaigns feature similar themes; rooting out a Chaos cult with ties to the very highest levels of imperial government, saving the world from Tzeentch, etc.

You can be a champion of good. It's just that no matter how many times you win against Chaos, it's never over, and the world doesn't get any less grim and dirty and hostile and unpleasant.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 09:02 AM
They're not worried about me meeting pedophiles. They're concerned it might eff up the computer.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-18, 09:08 AM
That's...actually a valid concern, considering it's AOL software.

Try downloading Trillian. It's a multi-platform IM software that lets you use AIM without having to download any AOL programs. Just download it and make an AIM account and you're set.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 09:18 AM
I've already got an AIM account. I have AIM installed on my old college computer, which is currently not set up.

Morty
2008-12-18, 09:26 AM
Nonsense. Almost all the published adventures are about saving the Empire or the world from Chaos, fighting cultists and demons. In Dying of the Light (a magnificent adventure!), the PCs are trying to prevent the resurrection of the minor Chaos god Zahnartz ("dentist" in German; knowing German makes the names in Warhammer way funnier). The other published adventures and campaigns feature similar themes; rooting out a Chaos cult with ties to the very highest levels of imperial government, saving the world from Tzeentch, etc.

And PCs can succed in it. It might not save the whole world but player characters are succesful in what they tried to achieve.


You can be a champion of good. It's just that no matter how many times you win against Chaos, it's never over, and the world doesn't get any less grim and dirty and hostile and unpleasant.

True, but PCs' victory can, and will, make a part of the world a little bit better for a while. PCs can and do win, they're just not influential enough to save the whole world. Not to mention that published adventures aside, players aren't compelled to fight Chaos, greenskins, Skaven etc. like D&D-type heroes do.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-12-18, 09:55 AM
I've already got an AIM account. I have AIM installed on my old college computer, which is currently not set up.Google and download Trillian, then, assuming that's less trouble than setting up your college computer. Give it your AIM data, and you're good to go.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 09:48 PM
I'll consider. I'm leery of downloading anything for the same reasons my dad is.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-18, 11:52 PM
So...do I have what it takes to survive in the world of Warhammer?

comicshorse
2008-12-19, 12:24 AM
So...do I have what it takes to survive in the world of Warhammer

Well going by the Roleplaying game you probably have more magical equipent than the King of Brettonia, so that's a good start

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-19, 12:50 AM
I do? Ohhh crap! I don't wanna be overpowered!:smalleek:

Morty
2008-12-19, 08:30 AM
Well, how many magic items do you have? In Warhammer, they tend to be rare and exclusive for wealthy and powerful people.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-19, 09:04 AM
A question, OP? From where you took the name "de Viterbo"?


Viterbo it's the (central Italy) city where I live now.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-19, 09:41 AM
I wanted a suitably European sounding name, and I knew that knights often took a surname based on where they were from. I'm aware that Viterbo is actually in Italy, but I figured no one'd know the difference since there isn't one in the Warhammer Universe. Also, I attend Viterbo University, in La Crosse, WI. It's run by the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration, who came over to America from Italy.

Kaiyanwang
2008-12-19, 10:16 AM
I wanted a suitably European sounding name, and I knew that knights often took a surname based on where they were from. I'm aware that Viterbo is actually in Italy, but I figured no one'd know the difference since there isn't one in the Warhammer Universe. Also, I attend Viterbo University, in La Crosse, WI. It's run by the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration, who came over to America from Italy.

:smallsmile:

Anyway, Tilea is Italy (Italia), as you discussed before. BTW, one famous tilean is Leonardo da Miragliano, a WH Leonardo da Vinci.

Some Dogs of War from tilea in past edition used to defend themselves (they were crossbowmen) with a large grounding towershield, the "Pavese", as Crossbowmen from Genova did.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-19, 07:06 PM
Anything else that should be covered?

comicshorse
2008-12-19, 07:56 PM
Just given your characters previous life of banditry and slaughter. How is regarded by other Bretonnians, is he wanted by the law ? Do other Bretonnians kinghts even regard him as a knight ( as his liege lord has been killed) ? Our their old enemies from his evil days seeking him out ?

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-19, 08:01 PM
Here's a sort of revised version of the backstory that might help clarify those things.

Everyone in Bretonnia knows that those nobles who were associated with the mad Duke Merovich of Mousillon fell into ruin, as well as those nobles who ruled Mousillon following him. But surely none has suffered as much as the house of Viterbo. Lord de Viterbo was one of the few of Merovich's nobles who didn't defect to Lyonesse, for despite his lord's madness, he'd sworn an oath to serve him, and no Viterbo had ever broken his word. Viterbo's loyalty, while admirable, in a tragic sort of way, was naturally punished by the Lady of the Lake. Lord de Viterbo's house was cast down in the invasion of Mousillon, and his family was cursed with madness like that of Duke Merovich. For years following, the house of Lord de Viterbo contributed to the decay of Mousillon, becoming bestial wild-men, and attacking villages, seemingly at random. Finally, most of the family had been killed off, except for the twin brothers, Naimon de Viterbo and Ganelon de Viterbo.

Naimon and his brother bore their ancestor's curse of violence and evil, leading a group of bandits and beastmen who preyed on people who strayed too close to Mousillon. It seemed Naimon would keep killing until he and his brother were killed themselves, ending Lord de Viterbo's line and ending the curse.

But it was not to be. For during a particularly vicious attack, at a lakeside village, Naimon was about to land a killing strike on a huddling woman, when suddenly he found himself almost blinded by a bright, dazzling light from the lake. When a beautiful woman emerged from the light, it was almost as if a haze had lifted from his mind. He almost instinctively knew who she was. The Lady of the Lake. She spoke not a word, but approached Naimon, who for the first time in his life was truly afraid. The sounds of the battle seemed muted, distant. The screams of the villagers, the roar of the beastmen, the crackle of the burning houses, all faded from his senses. The Lady was his entire world for that one moment. She layed her hands on his temples, and almost intantly Naimon felt something stir within him. The Lady had opened his heart for the very first time. The realization of what he had done, and the sins he had commited, shocked him to the core. He began to weep, bitterly, and when he looked up again, the Lady had vanished. When one of the beastmen came to investigate, snuffling around him, Naimon didn't even respond. He just stood, tears streaming down his face, as he took up the crude wooden club he'd used since he was a child, and bashed the beastman's skull in. He did the same to all the rest of his warband, stopping them from completing the vile work he'd led them there to do.

By the end of the battle, Naimon had killed almost every last member of his band, except for his brother, Ganelon. He approached him, club in hand, intent on ending his brother's miserable life. But something stayed his hand. What was this newfound feeling he felt? Mercy? Love? He couldn't tell. His brother saw the peace of mind on his face, free from the beastial madness of the curse, and spat at his feet. Ganelon turned and left, vanishing into the woods. There were only a few villagers who'd survived the massacre, and they weren't sure what to make of Naimon. Most of them wanted to kill him on the spot, but they still feared his wrath. Minutes later, a troop of men-at-arms and a Knight of the Realm arrived. They didn't know what to make of this strange, tear-streaked man, beastman bodies heaped at his feet. The Knight dismounted, and asked him his name.

Naimon didn't hear them, or see them. The Lady had reappeared. He walked towards her, wading into the lake, tears still coming down his face. He knelt before her, arms outstretched, and silently hoped she would end him. But she did not. Instead, she kissed his forehead. Naimon looked up at her, confused, and then she placed her hands on his shoulders. Almost at once, he understood everything. He nodded, and she vanished again. Then he looked at his reflection in the water. Where his tears had flowed down his face, there were now dark streaks. He tried to wash them off, but they didn't come off. Finally he gave up and returned to the shore. He begged the villagers' forgiveness, and the Knight's, who took him back to his castle to recover. The next day, the Knight gave him horse and sword, cleaned him up, and sent him to Lyonesse. Naimon knew what he had to do. He would become a knight, and dedicate himself to the service of the Lady who had changed him forever. He would restore honor to the name of Lord de Viterbo, and lift the curse that had hounded his family for generations. The blood of many innocents had been spilled, not onlt by him, but by his minions, his brother, and the rest of his family. It would take even more blood of the wicked to wash those sins clean...

Anakha
2008-12-19, 09:51 PM
I applaud your drawing, and the story is not bad either. But, more than likely, there will be knights who are after your character for wronging their house and property (ahh, bretonnia, where people are still property). There may even be some bounty on your head, which may attract some of the Empire's numerous bounty hunters.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-19, 11:53 PM
The drawing is not mine. I found it on DeviantArt.

Here's the artist who drew it.

http://what-we-leave-behind.deviantart.com/

And as for what you day about people being after me, I suppose that's true. But I'm probably not as likely to draw attention as my companions are. A dark elf and high elf cooperating are sure to draw confused stares.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-20, 02:00 PM
Well, the dark elf character's being created now. I can only wonder how her player will justify working with other races, especially the high elf swordmaster. If what I've been told is right, the Dark Elves loathe everyone, including themselves.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-20, 10:55 PM
Anything else that needs to be said?

Kizara
2008-12-21, 03:16 AM
Your items are fine.

The only thing you have that's really special is your armor, and that is fair considering that your stats are lower then other's in the group.

Everyone has like 60-80 pts of magic items. This is unrealistic for the setting, but its how the game is being run. Personally, I'm happy with it, as it means I can have more fun with shinies.


Also, Amearithus is not going to be 'working with' the DE by default, I thought I already explained that? Thought has been given as to how the character's might interact, but that doesn't mean he is going to consider her an ally automatically.

You should do ok in game, just don't be too crazy with charges. Make sure your allies can back you up. We have a very strong melee presence in the party, and some solid casters too. We should do well IMO.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-12-21, 04:41 PM
I take it that since we've got such powerful items already we won't be getting any new ones then.

Kizara
2008-12-21, 04:57 PM
I take it that since we've got such powerful items already we won't be getting any new ones then.

Not soon, but we will be for sure.


For one thing, everyone is going to get something really cool for a mount, or stats, or some good items because later on I'm going to be riding a star dragon.

That thing is insane. It's 370 points (to compare, our characters are about 200 points currently with items) and is one of the most powerful creatures in the game. Full stop.

Alys is going to become a gray seer (skaven lvl 4 caster) and ride a screaming bell (200 pts), as well as have better fighting ability and items then a normal gray seer.

Rhy is going to have a rare carnosaur that'll be stronger then normal (higher S and T), have his blessing improve alot, and so forth.

You get the idea.