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Fixer
2008-12-15, 01:49 PM
For some reason, the search function returns a blank page for me.

What class replacements are there for sneak attack?

I am thinking about a rogue build centering around skill use and skill tricks and not really participating in combat at all (borderline Vow of Peace territory). As a result, Sneak Attack wouldn't be used by this character (they would avoid combat, and even run from combat) and I want to know what else there is in RAW to replace it.

Medic
2008-12-15, 01:52 PM
Fighter Bonus feats instead of SA. (See Unearthed Arcana)

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 01:55 PM
In Unearthed Arcana, there's an option that takes Sneak Attack away and replaces it with the Fighter's bonus feat progression. Unfortunately, they're fighter bonus feats, so that may or may not be something you'd be interested in.

My equivalencies list says that's pretty much all you can trade SA for, though a case could be made for Skirmish, Riposte, or similar.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 01:56 PM
You could always deal nonlethal. There are a lot of PrCs that don't advance SA much at all. Does it have to be a rogue? A Factotum/Cloistered Cleric/Bard could probably do similar stuff and never fight, but help the party during fights. This is the Class Feature Equivalencies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58667) list, which only lists Bonus Feats for SA.

As an aside, how do you plan to contribute without being helpful in combat, which is 90% of D&D's mechanics?

Fixer
2008-12-15, 02:03 PM
As an aside, how do you plan to contribute without being helpful in combat, which is 90% of D&D's mechanics?
On the rare occasions when I get to play, people tend to get irritated by my builds' ability to deal damage. For this reason I got the idea to build a character around control via skills. Sleight of Hand/Hide to disable spellcasters and/or warriors during combat ("Where'd my spell components go? And your holy symbol is gone! Ed's sword looks a lot like a codfish. What is going on?").

Not sure how viable it would be, so I was asking for possible replacements. The old "smack with stick, do X damage" gets boring.

What rules are there to replace Fighter Bonus feats, then? Since that seems to be the only equivalence.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 02:07 PM
On the rare occasions when I get to play, people tend to get irritated by my builds' ability to deal damage. For this reason I got the idea to build a character around control via skills. Sleight of Hand/Hide to disable spellcasters and/or warriors during combat ("Where'd my spell components go? And your holy symbol is gone! Ed's sword looks a lot like a codfish. What is going on?").

Not sure how viable it would be, so I was asking for possible replacements. The old "smack with stick, do X damage" gets boring.

What rules are there to replace Fighter Bonus feats, then? Since that seems to be the only equivalence.Good idea (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=297776). Also, the link I listed has all the Fighter's feat equivalencies.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-15, 02:10 PM
For some reason, the search function returns a blank page for me.

What class replacements are there for sneak attack?
Spontaneous casting from large parts of the illusion and enchantment wizard lists.

(by playing a Beguiler)

Fixer
2008-12-15, 02:12 PM
I knew better than to believe I thought of something original. Interesting link, though.

I was going to put him together as a skillmonkey, with his combat time going towards disabling opponents, making them easier targets for the party.

I don't want to play a beguiler. I want to play a rogue, because of the massive skill points.

I was hoping to find a replacement where you give up sneak attack for an extra 2-4 skill points per level or something.

Moriato
2008-12-15, 02:12 PM
On the rare occasions when I get to play, people tend to get irritated by my builds' ability to deal damage. For this reason I got the idea to build a character around control via skills. Sleight of Hand/Hide to disable spellcasters and/or warriors during combat ("Where'd my spell components go? And your holy symbol is gone! Ed's sword looks a lot like a codfish. What is going on?").

Not sure how viable it would be, so I was asking for possible replacements. The old "smack with stick, do X damage" gets boring.

What rules are there to replace Fighter Bonus feats, then? Since that seems to be the only equivalence.

You may not need to, there's a lot of fighter bonus feats that seem like they'd fit your build quite well. Inmproved trip, improved disarm, improved sunder. Plus picking up some of the defensive feats like dodge and mobility would probably be good, as I have a feeling you're probably going to piss off a lot of enemies.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-12-15, 02:15 PM
You may not need to, there's a lot of fighter bonus feats that seem like they'd fit your build quite well. Improved trip, improved disarm, improved sunder. Plus picking up some of the defensive feats like dodge and mobility would probably be good, as I have a feeling you're probably going to piss off a lot of enemies.Dodge is a prereq for Spring Attack, and should never be taken. Instead, take one of the "counts as Dodge for the purpose of prerequisites" feats. Improved Sunder will make your party hate you more than the Frenzied Berserker.

Kurald Galain
2008-12-15, 02:30 PM
I don't want to play a beguiler. I want to play a rogue, because of the massive skill points.
Beguilers usually have more skill points than rogues :smallbiggrin:

Anyway. There's a number of feats in the Complete Scoundrel that let you trade sneak attack dice for debuffs (e.g. deal 2d6 less SA, and enemy takes a -X to hit, something like that).

Draz74
2008-12-15, 02:42 PM
Beguilers usually have more skill points than rogues :smallbiggrin:
Same with Factotums :smallbiggrin:

... but this particular Rogue is probably going to max out his INT just as carefully as a Beguiler or Factotum would (except for temporary boosts like items).


Anyway. There's a number of feats in the Complete Scoundrel that let you trade sneak attack dice for debuffs (e.g. deal 2d6 less SA, and enemy takes a -X to hit, something like that).

Good call -- making nonlethal-damage sneak attacks with all kinds of wacky effects tied to them through Ambush Feats could be an interesting character. Unfortunately, most of the ambush feats tend to be pretty violent effects, so I'm not sure they fit this guy's character concept.

Fixer
2008-12-15, 02:48 PM
I was going for the least number of splatbooks possible. No one who will GM me will allow PHB II materials. I can barely get anyone to allow me anything outside of PHB.

One time the whole group I played with challenged me to build an entire adventuring party for everyone, as they knew of my ability to twist things to fit. I asked everyone what they wanted and they gave me a list and here are the results:

Elan Druid build who focuses on movement and spellcasting. (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dch332f9_19hdvs9jhk&hl=en)
Leslie, the Gay Minotaur Ranger, focused on shape-changing. (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dch332f9_17fzv7pg&hl=en)
Milo Cherrybuster and his faithful Steed, Bob the Skeleton (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dch332f9_18fkrz9ndd&hl=en)
Pickles, the Warforged Paladin (which the group decided would have had a -2 to DEX instead of WIS). (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dch332f9_16dqjpsk&hl=en)
And the character I made for myself, a Dwarven Rogue. (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dch332f9_14msq46s&hl=en)

We played these folks for three levels and then the group dissolved. Too bad, I was hoping to see how they did.

Oh, and the limitation was that they all had to be single-class characters, with no more than one prestige class.

Fax Celestis
2008-12-15, 02:51 PM
Well, your other option would be to mitigate the amount of sneak attack you gain. And, with a skill-oriented ideal in mind, perhaps something like Rogue 5/Thief-Acrobat 5/Exemplar 10 might be more up your alley. As a bonus, it uses one book: Complete Adventurer.

EDIT: Hell, maybe even use the Feat Rogue mentioned earlier (it's in the SRD) to get some bonus feats as help qualifying for Thief-Acrobat and Exemplar.

jcsw
2008-12-15, 02:54 PM
You could go into the trapsmith/combat trapsmith prestige class...

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-15, 02:59 PM
Well, your other option would be to mitigate the amount of sneak attack you gain. And, with a skill-oriented ideal in mind, perhaps something like Rogue 5/Thief-Acrobat 5/Exemplar 10 might be more up your alley. As a bonus, it uses one book: Complete Adventurer.

EDIT: Hell, maybe even use the Feat Rogue mentioned earlier (it's in the SRD) to get some bonus feats as help qualifying for Thief-Acrobat and Exemplar.

This would be my advice as well. Seems like the perfect build for what you want. Thief Acrobat and Exemplar are etremely easy to qualify for. Feat Rogue gives you a surprisingly versatile character as there are a lot of great fighter feats lying around. And if you want a skill monkey, you can't get better than exemplar. Between the two, you'll be able to take 10 on most skills, which is very nice indeed.

Spymaster is another nice PrC for an atypical rogue build.

Fixer
2008-12-15, 03:00 PM
You could go into the trapsmith/combat trapsmith prestige class...
Meh, trying to avoid conflict or causing direct harm. This character is one of those "Why hurt people? It is only stuff." kind of attitude.

Think about it, how many BBEG would be all that truly dangerous or terrifying without their 'stuff'?

No ultra-powerful weapons (pilfered).
No artifacts (stolen).
No items of mind control (mysteriously disappears).
etc.

Maybe one of those prestige classes mentioned on the feat rogue would work. Trying to keep the number of prestige classes and alternate class features to a minimum. Are the skill trick feats available to the feat rogue?

Dairun Cates
2008-12-15, 03:03 PM
Am I the only one who thinks using sleight of hand to disarm weapons on a 20 DC sleight of hand check is just a bit silly when they clearly describe the object you can steal as "small"? Last I checked, great and longswords were not usually considered small weapons. Daggers, sure, but most other things are just silly.

Human Paragon 3
2008-12-15, 03:04 PM
Are the skill trick feats available to the feat rogue?


Not as such, but a lot of combat-skill type feats are. You'll have to use your normal feats (be human) to get the skill tricks.

Alternatively, you could use a PC Expert found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert)instead of the rogue, then go into Thief Acro/Exemplar. You'll get fewer skill points, but you can take any feat as a bonus feat.

The very best build of all would be:

Feat Rogue 1/Expert 4/Thief Acrobat 5/Exemplar 10

To maxamize bonus feats, skill points and class abilities. Note that one of your "bonus feats" from expert will need to be used on generic evasion in order to qualify for the PrC.


Am I the only one who thinks using sleight of hand to disarm weapons on a 20 DC sleight of hand check is just a bit silly when they clearly describe the object you can steal as "small"? Last I checked, great and longswords were not usually considered small weapons. Daggers, sure, but most other things are just silly.

So take improved dissarm and a rapier?

esorscher
2008-12-15, 04:24 PM
Am I the only one who thinks using sleight of hand to disarm weapons on a 20 DC sleight of hand check is just a bit silly when they clearly describe the object you can steal as "small"? Last I checked, great and longswords were not usually considered small weapons. Daggers, sure, but most other things are just silly.

My question exactly. If you were, however, a large-sized rogue, could you steal medium-sized items? And can you use sleight of hand to steal things right out of someone's hand?

Person_Man
2008-12-15, 04:28 PM
Bard with Bardic Knack (PHBII) variant and Jack of All Trades (Comp Adventurer). You gain 1/2 your Bard level to replace the number of ranks for any Skill. So specialize in the useful Skills that have opposed checks - Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, and Listen. Put 10 to 15 ranks in UMD and Tumble. Everything else is covered by Knack and Jack of All Trades or by spells (which can also be used to boost Skill checks big time). A Bard with respectable Int could easily handle everything any Skill could do.

Note that many Skills are better handled by spells (which you can get with class levels or UMD). For example, Silence is a lot better then Move Silently. Invisibility is better then Hide (unless you have Hide in Plain Site and Darkstalker). Speak Language and Decipher Script are handled by many different spells. Fly is better then Climb and Jump. Alter Self gives you a +10 to Disguise and removes penalties for being a different race, gender, and age. Charm is sometimes better then Diplomacy or Intimidate. Disable Device is solved by Summon Monster I (or by just buying dogs and playing fetch with them in a dungeon as you walk). Heal is replaced my any Cure spell. Open Lock is replaced by Shatter. Craft and Profession are pretty much useless, as is Perform for anyone but a Bard. Many other Skills have fixed DC's, so all you really need is 5-10 points invested in it, plus your ability mod, and maybe a Skill boosting item.

esorscher
2008-12-15, 11:08 PM
Not in relation to the question, but take a look at the Gruwaar race. If your DM allows it: +2 Cha, +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Wis, +4 on Sleight of Hand, among others. No level adjustment.