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Job
2008-12-17, 05:25 PM
I’ll be joining a two PC campaign shortly and I’m looking for some advice on building an archer.

My companion will be a meat-shield of some type, not sure exactly what class he has settled on. I did hear tell of a samurai (shudder).

From experience I now the DM will starve our character for wealth and magic item, routinely expect us to face odds that would be impossible for a four man group three levels higher (run away!). Maliciously exploit character flaws, use prolific death traps and no-win situations, and inflict characters with high LA temples against their will as an excuse to use even more powerful opponents. :smallbiggrin:

I’m starting at level 1 and don’t expect to make it past 10 so the high-level builds I looked at so far aren’t as helpful as they could be.

Outline:

Starting at level 1
Core + Complete + TOB are allowed as sources
Only 3 classes -prestige or otherwise- in any build
Archer character preferred, having some healing powers will be helpful.

Ideas so far:

Human
1: Ranger, FE 1, Point blank shot, Precise shot, Track
2: Ranger, Rapid shot
3: Scout, Skirmish (1d6), Trap finding, WF Composite Longbow
4: Scout, Battle fortitude +1, uncanny dodge
5: Scout, +10ft, Skirmish (1d6 +1ac), trackless step
6: Scout, Iron will, Swift hunter => [Skirmish (2d6 +1AC), FE 2]
7: Scout, Evasion, Skirmish (2d6 +2AC)
8+: Order of the Bow Initiate

Note: I’ll have at least 12 wis, so if I recall correctly I’ll be able to use a wand of Cure-light wounds thanks to the ranger levels, and the DM is ok with my precision damage from Scout and Bow Initiate stacking. Having skill points is a good thing.

Human
1: Cleric (homebrew god) Domains (War, ??) Point blank shot, Precise shot, Turning
2: Cleric
3: Cleric, Zen archery
4+: Cleric

Notes: Homebrew god, favored weapon is the shortbow and has war as a domain so big ups right there. Cleric is always awesome, and takes care of healing worries. However I don’t know how to boost ranged damage with Cleric spells.

Any thoughts, comments, or criticisms are more then welcome, thank you for your time.

Vortling
2008-12-17, 05:33 PM
Are you entirely wedded to the idea that you must be an archer or would you settle for merely being ranged?

Job
2008-12-17, 05:41 PM
Would prefer an archer, but just ranged would be fine. If it helps any, my inspiration for the character was the “Crimson Mask” illustration in TOB’s Swordsage section, unfortunately no ranged stuff in TOB.

Vortling
2008-12-17, 06:15 PM
As far as archer goes check out the Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) Discipline for ToB. It is homebrew but Fax is a very good homebrewer. His stuff is quite balanced. It doesn't have the healing you wanted but it makes archery effective.

Epinephrine
2008-12-17, 06:41 PM
Are you entirely wedded to the idea that you must be an archer or would you settle for merely being ranged?

As soon as I saw the title I was wondering how soon before someone asked that.

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 06:42 PM
And then the inevitable link to a Hulking Hurler build wielding a small Iridium Moon of Return +1.

Rei_Jin
2008-12-17, 06:53 PM
See, for something like this I'd be going with a slightly different build.

1: Dwarven Cleric of War, Point Blank Shot
2: Cleric of War
3: Cleric of War, Precise Shot
4: Warblade
5: Warblade
6: Bloodstorm Blade, Far Shot
7: Bloodstorm Blade
8: Bloodstorm Blade, Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
9: Bloodstorm Blade, Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe
10: Bloodstorm Blade

Throw axes at people, not arrows!

Archangel Yuki
2008-12-17, 07:00 PM
Well it really depends on the kind of build that your going for. Do you want to be the Archer that moves quickly and evades his oppoents while slowly knocking down their hitpoints, or do you want to be able to stand still and fill someone fulls of arrows so they fall dead at your feet by the time they reach you?

Seatbelt
2008-12-17, 07:05 PM
Well it really depends on the kind of build that your going for. Do you want to be the Archer that moves quickly and evades his oppoents while slowly knocking down their hitpoints, or do you want to be able to stand still and fill someone fulls of arrows so they fall dead at your feet by the time they reach you?

In which case, play a fighter. Our 13th level Dwarf Fighter/OoBI/Scout does something close to a bajillion damage with a full attack. He's got that travel devotion and improved skirmish and cheap magic items. When he moves, and takes a full attack, it's stupidly silly how much damage he does.

Tacoma
2008-12-17, 07:10 PM
In which case, play a fighter. Our 13th level Dwarf Fighter/OoBI/Scout does something close to a bajillion damage with a full attack. He's got that travel devotion and improved skirmish and cheap magic items. When he moves, and takes a full attack, it's stupidly silly how much damage he does.

Yeah I had a player do this before. And she picked up a feat somewhere that made it so she could shoot at melee range without incurring AoO. It was lovely. She killed everything.

Of course it made the game a lot more boring. O well.

Archangel Yuki
2008-12-17, 07:42 PM
In which case, play a fighter. Our 13th level Dwarf Fighter/OoBI/Scout does something close to a bajillion damage with a full attack. He's got that travel devotion and improved skirmish and cheap magic items. When he moves, and takes a full attack, it's stupidly silly how much damage he does.

Yeah, thats about the build i was going to suggest ironically. There's really not much point imho to taking ranger with ranged speciality if your taking scout.

Although i was toying with some sort of Barbarian/Scout mixup just to try. something like Fighter 1 scout 2-4, Barbarian 5-7, then OoBI to 10. Makeing sure to get a composite bow that you can both fire while Raging and not Raging, but still i would have fun with it. Move a couple squares Rage, Ranged Precision Shot, and Skirmish. Although you can skip Fighter 1 so you get the Scout bonus feat in which case I would go Scout 4 Barbarian 3 then OoBI. The Barbarian 3 is mostly for Trap Sense, so you could pass that over if you absoluetley had to :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2008-12-17, 08:04 PM
3: Scout, Skirmish (1d6), Trap finding, WF Composite Longbow
This part is wrong.
For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow. So you'll have Weapon Focus (longbow), and this works with both composite and regular longbows.

Eldariel
2008-12-18, 12:10 AM
Although i was toying with some sort of Barbarian/Scout mixup just to try. something like Fighter 1 scout 2-4, Barbarian 5-7, then OoBI to 10. Makeing sure to get a composite bow that you can both fire while Raging and not Raging, but still i would have fun with it. Move a couple squares Rage, Ranged Precision Shot, and Skirmish. Although you can skip Fighter 1 so you get the Scout bonus feat in which case I would go Scout 4 Barbarian 3 then OoBI. The Barbarian 3 is mostly for Trap Sense, so you could pass that over if you absoluetley had to :smalltongue:

I wish to point out that Swift Hunter stacks Scout- and Ranger-levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy. So Ranger pretty much hands Barbarian, Fighter and OoTBI their asses. Soo yea, Scout/Ranger is the way to go.

I'll also have to point out that 3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate is a horrible class and should never be taken by a serious archer. You can only use the ability as a Standard Action, denying you a full attack (including Rapid Shot). Since its primary class feature is focused on that, you'll basically never be dealing serious damage to anything. Instead, I'd go with:

Scout 3/Mystic Ranger 5+ (you can find Mystic Ranger in Crystalkeep - if you can't use it, just standard Ranger will do, but for healing and archery, Mystic would be far better)

You'd get great casting, full Skirmish & Favored Enemy progression (although only 4 Favored Enemies), a ton of great spells, almost full BAB, great skills and all sorts of awesome. Alternatively, you could dip 1 level in Cleric for Travel Devotion [Complete Champion] and Improved Turning, burning all your Turn Undead-uses for extra uses of Travel Devotion. This would allow you to, for 4 times per day for 1 minute, move up to your speed as a Swift Action, allowing you to do Skirmish Full Attacks. If your group uses partial BAB (basically, medium BAB class gives you 0.75 BAB each level, low BAB classes give you 0.5 BAB each level and full BAB 1 BAB each level; add up all, round down - this just means multiclassing in medium/half BAB classes doesn't kill your BAB progression), you'd still have BAB 19.

If you don't use Partial BAB , take a level of Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) instead, and put one point in all Knowledges used for monster identification (Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, Knowldge: The Planes, Knowledge: Nature, Knowledge: Dungeoneering and Knowledge: Local) - this allows you to get +1 to attack and damage vs. all opponents so it's effectively the same as having increased BAB (except you get iteratives one level late). Since Cleric has Arcana, Religion and The Planes, and Ranger has Nature and Dungeoneering leaving only Local crossclass, you'll be just fine buying those Knowledge in class without spending too many skillpoints. Also, you get to play the kinda "I know something of everything" guy. And you can roll the Knowledge each time and sometimes get lucky with +2/+2 instead.


Soo, I suggest starting with:

Scout 3/Ranger 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger + (taking maybe one more level of Scout for that extra feat)

With Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion and Undeath-domains from Cleric. Otherwise, just pick your standard archery feats and go to town. And with Mystic Ranger if at all possible.


If you don't have wealth per level, Swift Hunter may face problems (it's still a martial character, who needs the money to make up for his lack of Magic, although he's better off than most). In such a case, a simple Cleric-archer is probably for the best. That means:

Cleric 20

That is, just take a Cleric-like class (either Cleric or PrC) on each level, get DMM: Persistent Spell along with Extra Turnings, Persist all kinds of ranged buffs and shoot people in the eye. This also means you'll be a full Cleric so you can handle healing should need be (just don't let that take away from your offensive arsenal; attack works against all types of opponents, while sometimes HP is just useless). With stuff like Divine Favor, Blessed Aim, Divine Power, Prayer, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon, etc. all buffed by Prayer Beads of Karma [DMG], you'll be shooting a lot, and damn well.

MammonAzrael
2008-12-18, 12:23 AM
May I suggest my Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4074106) homebrew class? :smallbiggrin:

And you know that, being a fighter and archer, you two will be even more dependent on magic items right?

Cleric is Zen Archery is also a way to go.

Falling Star is a great homebrew martial discipline for range if you want to go ToB. Bloodstorm Blade with thrown weapons is another good suggestion.

RTGoodman
2008-12-18, 12:28 AM
Well, there's the standard Bow Cleric build. Just go with Elf Cleric with the Elf domain (which gives Point-Blank or Precise Shot, I think) and one other domain (War, maybe). Then take the Zen Archery feat, which lets you use Wis as your attack stat with bows, and the rest of the standard archery tactics. Check out THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68731) old thread about it (but don't post - it's necromancy), and specific take a look at Rachel Lorelei's post - seems like sound advice to me.

I personally like just the Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter idea, but either should work. (Also, IIRC, to use a wand you just have to have the spell on your list - you don't have to be able to currently cast it, and I don't THINK you have to have the appropriate ability score. If that's true, just grab a handful of Cure X Wounds wands and go to town.)

Draz74
2008-12-18, 12:34 AM
If your DM is really going to screw you equipment-wise, and for some reason you want to play with him anyway (sounds like he's vicious in other ways too), it just might be worth it (I can't believe I'm suggesting this!) to play an Arcane Archer for the free magic weapon.

Doesn't apply if you'll have a friendly party mage casting GMW, of course.

You can enter Arcane Archer through a Ranger/Hexblade combination or something.

If psionics are allowed, alternatively you could go Soulknife/Soulbow. Probably a more effective build, and it likewise cheats the "stingy on magic items" thing.

The Swift Hunter with a dip in Cloistered Cleric for one level is pretty MAD, but it's still a tantalizingly good show of optimization skill. Yay for taking a one-level dip for three feats ... of course, if your DM enforces XP penalties for multiclassing, this one is out.

Archangel Yuki
2008-12-18, 12:40 AM
I wish to point out that Swift Hunter stacks Scout- and Ranger-levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy. *Snip*




:O

Where can I find this mystical feat that I seem to have overlooked?

Aneantir
2008-12-18, 12:40 AM
:O

Where can I find this mystical feat that I seem to have overlooked?

Complete Scoundrel, I believe.

Archangel Yuki
2008-12-18, 12:41 AM
Complete Scoundrel, I believe.

Ah, the only Complete I actually do not own.

How ironic.

Superglucose
2008-12-18, 12:51 AM
Holy... the crits from that class are nasty. Improved crit... so at level 20... 14-20x5 possible crit. Nice.

dspeyer
2008-12-18, 01:10 AM
Scout's best friend is anything that lets you move and full-attack in the same round. The only 1-level way I know to do this is with Sudden Leap from ToB (probably Warblade).

Also improved manyshot, which by RAW has nothing to do with psionics.

Eldariel
2008-12-18, 01:36 AM
If your DM is really going to screw you equipment-wise, and for some reason you want to play with him anyway (sounds like he's vicious in other ways too), it just might be worth it (I can't believe I'm suggesting this!) to play an Arcane Archer for the free magic weapon.

Doesn't apply if you'll have a friendly party mage casting GMW, of course.

You can enter Arcane Archer through a Ranger/Hexblade combination or something.

I suggest you rather play a Cleric or a Gish and cast the Greater Magic Weapon -.- There's never an excuse to take more than two levels of Arcane Archer.


If psionics are allowed, alternatively you could go Soulknife/Soulbow. Probably a more effective build, and it likewise cheats the "stingy on magic items" thing.

I actually forgot to mention this. Soulbows are awesome - Wis SAD Archers!


The Swift Hunter with a dip in Cloistered Cleric for one level is pretty MAD, but it's still a tantalizingly good show of optimization skill. Yay for taking a one-level dip for three feats ... of course, if your DM enforces XP penalties for multiclassing, this one is out.

Actually, not MAD at all. You need Dex, Con and maybe some Wis. Dex 18, Con 14, Wis 14 and the rest doesn't matter with all level-ups to Dex; 25pb gets you Dex 17, Con 14, Wis 14. You get your damage from Skirmish (10 Str is enough, and even if you only have 8, you can still use a standard Longbow at no damage penalties), you have enough base skillpoints so 8-10 Int is enough and even Cha 8 gives you 4 uses of Travel Devotion with the Cleric-dip (with Undeath-domain, you'll have a total of 3+Cha+4 Turnings base, which is 6 and Travel Devotion sacrifices them at the rate of 2 Turnings/Use and starts with 1, so you get 1+6/2=4 uses of it).

The key is that Swift Hunter can use a wide array of scores, but only really needs few of them. It's like the Cleric, actually. Cleric needs Wis, Cha and Con, but has use for every other ability score too.


Scout's best friend is anything that lets you move and full-attack in the same round. The only 1-level way I know to do this is with Sudden Leap from ToB (probably Warblade).

Also improved manyshot, which by RAW has nothing to do with psionics.

See Travel Devotion. One-level Cleric Dip "gets you there" enough times per day. Heck, Cha 12 would get you 5 uses per day; Reliquary Holy Symbol 6, Nightstick 8.

Job
2008-12-18, 03:22 AM
If your DM is really going to screw you equipment-wise, and for some reason you want to play with him anyway (sounds like he's vicious in other ways too), it just might be worth it (I can't believe I'm suggesting this!) to play an Arcane Archer for the free magic weapon.

It’s true he’s a vicious bastard, but he’s also a good friend and has left our groups with some of the most memorable gaming experiences. (How often do you get to yell “EAT ME!!!” to a purple worm a la Men In Black, and have it Be the safest option?:smallbiggrin:)

Thank you again for the effort, it is very much appreciated.

Upon reflection I’m not really feeling Cleric or Soulbow, so I’ll stick with Scout/Mystic Ranger for the time being.

If it changes things the DM is (surprisingly) ok with OoBT’s precision damage stacking with the skirmish damage, so whenever I would get skirmish damage I would also get the additional d8’s, and just the d8’s if I can’t move. In addition the close combat shot could come in very handy.

If I do dip Cleric/CC it will be a homebrew god so getting the right domains might prove tricky, and despite the brilliance of abusing Travel Devotion and Nightsticks it is a bit cheesy. If the DM gets one whiff of dairy there will be dead characters faster then you can say ‘rocks fall’.

Eldariel
2008-12-18, 04:53 AM
Note that OoTBI doesn't get Precisin Damage as a bonus to damage - it's a separate ability that takes a Standard Action to apply. So you can only take one shot per turn with it. If your DM handwaves that, it gets better, but I'd still rather take Ranger-levels since you get spells (which is awesome; also, Close-Combat Shot is replicated by a level 1 spell from Complete Adventurer named "Arrow Mind"), favored enemy (which means more piercing of critical immunity with your skirmish, which lowers then chance of you being useless) and Skirmish-progression.

If you can't get the Undeath-domain (Travel should be fairly trivial), get some archery-themed domain instead (War for Weapon Focus, Elf for Point Blank Shot, etc.) and just go with the lower number of uses. Reliquary Holy Symbol and Cha 12 (could even be a +2 Cha-boosting item with base Cha 10, or +4 with Cha 8) would still get you up to 4 uses per day.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-18, 06:25 AM
Soo, I suggest starting with:

Scout 3/Ranger 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger + (taking maybe one more level of Scout for that extra feat) That's just nuts with multiclassing penalties when you add in the Cloistered Cleric level. You're at -20% (minimum) on all XP forever once you do that. This just fails.

Chineselegolas
2008-12-18, 06:42 AM
That's just nuts with multiclassing penalties when you add in the Cloistered Cleric level. You're at -20% (minimum) on all XP forever once you do that. This just fails.
Who plays with Multiclassing Penalties?
And a slight change and it works with them. One more of cloistered cleric.

And what do you mean "minimum"? The penalties is applied once if there is a large difference, otherwise not. It doesn't get applied multiple times.

Eldariel
2008-12-18, 07:00 AM
That's just nuts with multiclassing penalties when you add in the Cloistered Cleric level. You're at -20% (minimum) on all XP forever once you do that. This just fails.

Nobody plays with multiclassing penalties. Or if they do, they deserve a smack to the face. Dumbest rules in 3.5 by far. Including drowning rules.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-18, 01:39 PM
Who plays with Multiclassing Penalties? Anybody who follows the rules, as I do. Anybody who plays Living Greyhawk.

And what do you mean "minimum"? The penalties is applied once if there is a large difference, otherwise not. It doesn't get applied multiple times. Gee, you're ignorant of the rule you're not following -- what a surprise. :smallsigh: It's a 20% penalty for each class that's more than 1 level different from your highest level class. Your proposed build would impose a 20% XP penalty for Cloistered Cleric as soon as you added that, and a further 20% penalty for Scout as soon as you advanced the Ranger level more than 1 higher than the Scout level, for a 40% XP penalty total. Your build didn't specify the race, which could reduce the XP penalty to the 20% minimum if it's either human, half-elf, or a race favoring one of the three classes.

Job
2008-12-18, 03:37 PM
No worries Curmudgeon, we don't play with multiclassing penalties so I'll be fine.