Erfworld 134 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 121

[kpenguin]

New comic is up.

Looks like, once again, the unexpected has seriously started to boop up Parson's plans.

[pendell]

Not unexpected.

But that's one of the things that separates a real soldier from an armchair strategist.

Real soldiers know that the plan always goes to pieces, but are expert at turning things from a goofup to success through improvisation, daring, and an absolute refusal to give up.

Ansom is only a competent tactician, but he has the qualities above in spades.

If Parson wants to survive these next few turns, he's going to have to come up with some of that, too.

His side needs a hero.

His side doesn't have one.

Now.

If Parson doesn't step up to the plate, I don't know who will.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[T-O-E]

Suspense... Rising...
Hey! The comic updated whilst I was online!

[carebearbecky]

Wanda NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[keeganknorr]

is dieppe refering to the battle of dieppe in ww2?

[DrivinAllNight]

Poor Wanda, she lately has either been at the top of her game or at the bottom, other than the beginning strips did she seem to be an average character who was neither at the peak or the lowest valley so quickly as she has as of late.

EDIT: To the reference of the Dieppe battle of WWII, then lets hope it leads to a nice twist on Operation Overlord for Parson and his forces.

[Tyrael]

Dun dun duuuhhh!

[datalaughing]

So when the image is flipped around the first line or so of the contract Ansom is reading seems to say, "*rem ip**m dolor sit amet consecteturadipisicing elit sed oc ..." * = something covering a letter. Lorem Ipsum. Good to know.

[Doran]

Heh nice touch with the contract being Lorem ipsum... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum) :smallbiggrin:

[Aquillion]

No wonder Ansom considers that contract outrageous. I'd be outraged too, if someone gave me a contract consisting mainly of Lorem Ipsum.

[Daran]

Whoaaaa .. I hope Wanda is okay.

And remember Kids: Helmets safe lifes! ... At least I hope in this case, too. :smallfrown:

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Cr... f... bu... DRAT! :smallfurious:

That was not what I wanted to happen!

[Aquillion]

Now.

If Parson doesn't step up to the plate, I don't know who will.To be fair, assuming she's conscious, Wanda is two feet from the Arkenpliers. If she actually can attune to them, as many here have speculated, that could be overwhelming. Even if she can't, they're now in space Parson controls, and he can freely move units there to get them. Holding them must give him some kind of advantage.

[-Baldur-]

Verrrrry unexpected indeed. Total Battle space saturation. Tee hee hee. Awesomeness.

Wanda dying was sad :-(

Lucky they didn't already have a contract with Parson cos Charlie told him that he wouldn't interfere as it wasn't in his best interest to do such.

Naughty naughty Charlie. :smallwink:

[marquiz]

Wanda seemed to be pretty broken to me... sigh... I simply hope the Macguffin #2 has some sort of Healomancy... or the zombies know how to band aid... Ach well, then again two pro/an-tagonists fighting for their (in a fashion) loved ones to the death is part of the genre...

[Alces]

"Dieppe"... harsh. The Dieppe raid was a poor plan to begin with, and rather horribly botched - but not by a sudden, massive shift in alliances or relative strength.

[Olibarro]

"Dieppe"... harsh. The Dieppe raid was a poor plan to begin with, and rather horribly botched - but not by a sudden, massive shift in alliances or relative strength.

Taken from Wikipedia:
Some have argued that the lessons learned at Dieppe in 1942 were put to good use later in the war. Mountbatten later claimed, “I have no doubt that the Battle of Normandy was won on the beaches of Dieppe. For every man who died in Dieppe at least ten more must have been spared in Normandy in 1944."

[SteveMB]

The three big questions:

Is Wanda croaked or just down for the count until GK's turn begins? (For that matter, does Erfworld mechanics even have "unconscious" for a level of damage short of "croaked"?)

How exactly (and how severely) did Charlie hose Ansom?

What is Parson going to do about this shift in the situation?

[Hectonkhyres]

If Parson loses, he loses. He is, after all, the thing that Charlie wants most and so is almost guaranteed to get through this thing alive. Just captured.

What I want to know is how Charlie will react if Parson starts leading his host of gobwins and whatnot at the vanguard.

[B9anders]

Don't know if Dieppe is a way of saying 'fail!', but it could also be a foretelling. The allied forces outnumbered the defending forces 4 to 1 and were disastrously defeated at Dieppe. More the kind of soundeffect I would expect from Jetstone losing than Wanda falling to what is obviously a superior force of jetstone allies.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

So... if the carpet can be brought down to Ansom, he could supposedly go down to the courtyard and retrieve the Pliers (if they are still there).

[pendell]

Some have argued that the lessons learned at Dieppe in 1942 were put to good use later in the war. Mountbatten later claimed, “I have no doubt that the Battle of Normandy was won on the beaches of Dieppe. For every man who died in Dieppe at least ten more must have been spared in Normandy in 1944."


Then again, that could very well be putting a happy face on one of the most miserable military fiascos of WWII, resulting in loss of human life without corresponding military gain. Quoting from the same article


No major objectives of the raid were accomplished. 3,623 of the 6,086 men who made it ashore were either killed, wounded, or captured. The Allied air forces failed to lure the Luftwaffe into open battle, and lost 119 planes, while the Royal Navy suffered 555 casualties.


So, the saving grace of this raid was ... it was a horrible object lesson in how NOT to conduct an amphibious operation? And this is the best its defenders can come up with?

DING! *NO SALE*

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[afroakuma]

Those blasted archons. Every time.

Well, Charlie's betraying everyone now. This, at least, is good fun, and I expect that Parson has a semi-contingency ready for Charlie's stunt.

They'd better not lose Wanda, though.

[Aquillion]

So... if the carpet can be brought down to Ansom, he could supposedly go down to the courtyard and retrieve the Pliers (if they are still there).Hmm. It'd be interesting if he tries that, and it turns out Wanda is all right and takes the opportunity for a grudge match against him (she did appear to shield herself against the Archon's blasts, so all she took was falling damage. We don't know how harsh/realistic Erfworld's falling damage is.)

[Bilgore]

New comic is up.

Looks like, once again, the unexpected has seriously started to boop up Parson's plans.

Yes, but: The Arkenpliers are almost within Wanda's reach. units may be freely redeployed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html) within the various city zones. The Bogroll card (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0095.html) hasn't been played yet.

[Limos]

Wanda is pretty messed up, but she is alive at least. Most likely she will snatch the pliers and make a break for the garrison before Jetstone forces can break through the wall.

[Whispri]

I hope Wanda's okay.

How on Erf did Ansom find time to scroll through the sodding document without the fliers reaching him? Considering that Wanda was down and past him already on the last page.

[teratorn]

Wanda's staff is broken. It seems it was the thing which protected her from the archon attack. It was a relatively small fall, so she's probably alive but out from the battle for the rest of the turn. So no huge bonus to the uncroaked this turn.

[stsasser]

DIEPPE

A waste of a Canadian division by an dilettante royal.

[JazzManJim]

I hope Wanda's okay.

How on Erf did Ansom find time to scroll through the sodding document without the fliers reaching him? Considering that Wanda was down and past him already on the last page.

I was wondering that myself. Seems the Titans gave him a heck of a lot of time to read, and moved Wanda in space, to save his bacon.

[ishnar]

Well, we have an idea what one of those outrageous terms were, or Ansom would have asked for his arkenpliers too, not just the carpet.

This also settles pretty handily (pun intended) the argument of whether items can be passed through barriers.

I wonder if Erfworld helmet makers give free replacements for used helmets too? :P

How on Erf did Ansom find time to scroll through the sodding document without the fliers reaching him? Considering that Wanda was down and past him already on the last page.


It's TBS, there is ALWAYS plenty of time to read contracts and all. Pause key if nothing else.

So, the saving grace of this raid was ... it was a horrible object lesson in how NOT to conduct an amphibious operation? And this is the best its defenders can come up with?

DING! *NO SALE*

It is an unfortunate truth with military matters, that pretty much EVERY single policy or strategy followed is paid with the injury or death of at least one soldier. So yes, that's just how military works. Learn from the failures and move on. If a loss in one field of battle imparts something that leads to success on a more critical one, then the losses are acceptable.

edit - i seem to be forming a habit of being first poster on page two.

[Gez]

There are still some airforce defense systems, since Wanda only used "most" of them. So even if they take multiple turns to reload, it should be possible to bloody Charlie's nose a bit more.
Next round, the Dwagons are back. And, since Charlie is once again onboard the Royal Crown Coalition, they'll be back before the Archons can act.
The carpet still hover somewhere in the air, so the Archons can take it. The Arkenpliers are on the ground, not in the air anymore.

[seedjar]

Where's Jillian? Seems we're short at least one major player at the moment.
~Joe

[Fishman]

How on Erf did Ansom find time to scroll through the sodding document without the fliers reaching him? Considering that Wanda was down and past him already on the last page.Well, talking is a free action, perhaps in Erf, too.

Is Wanda croaked or just down for the count until GK's turn begins? (For that matter, does Erfworld mechanics even have "unconscious" for a level of damage short of "croaked"?)Well, Ansom fell from a greater height and was similarly affected for a frame, so it's hard to say. Of course, Ansom is a warrior unit, so probably has better hitpoints, but he also fell from a greater height.

[EvilInfinity]

Wanda didn't get disinitegrated along with the other uncroaked fliers, so i guess that's a pretty good hint she's alive.

Also, I don't think she's gona give up just now, being 3 feet from the arkanepliers, given just how much she hates Ansom. Even if she has 1hp left, she'll start crawling at them, even if it's just to have something to stab Ansom with. If only it was the ArkaneAxe instead of the Arkanepliers.. insane chicks with an axe are best :D

I just wonder what's going to happen when Stanley gets there. Will he join the party to pummel Ansom and everyone else out of the Hex, or will he turn on Wanda for touching his property by divine right ?

Only :mitd: knows for sure ^ ^

[Simanos]

Lame.
Wanda fell just like Ansom in the previous strip.
I didn't like how the Archon blasted the airforce, but it was expected (though with that power they could take the entire garrison easily), but the Wanda thing was totally plot driven (she was already out of their reach imo).
She'd better get up (just like Ansom and it wasn't that high, helmets are real weak in Erfworld) in the next strip and pick up the arkenpliers or I'm gonna pout :p

[SteveMB]

Where's Jillian? Seems we're short at least one major player at the moment.

She was last seen at the choke point to Faq, trying and failing to catch Stanley as he escaped. She could be back next turn or the turn after (I'm betting on the former for dramatic reasons), depending on how fast her personal gwiffon is compared to the larger group that took two turns (via Ansom's alliance-shifting sploit) to reach the choke point.

[Suicide Junkie]

Lame.
Wanda fell just like Ansom in the previous strip.
I didn't like how the Archon blasted the airforce, but it was expected (though with that power they could take the entire garrison easily)...Well, Charlie *did* ask how many archons would be needed to take the garrison in one turn, and then brought at least that many.

[Whispri]

That was before Parson got the Sword though. Actually he probably hadn't put much thought into repelling air attacks either, as not much could get through the defences. If he now has an anti-Archon plan those odds could well shift dramatically.

It's TBS, there is ALWAYS plenty of time to read contracts and all. Pause key if nothing else.
The actual fighting has all been in Real Time though. And if he could pause the game, why wait until now? Hmeck, why would Sizemore cut short his conversation with Parson because of incoming hostiles if they could converse at will?

Well, talking is a free action, perhaps in Erf, too.

Well, Ansom fell from a greater height and was similarly affected for a frame, so it's hard to say. Of course, Ansom is a warrior unit, so probably has better hitpoints, but he also fell from a greater height.
It wasn't on the previous page.

Problem with that is Wanda was already moving at quite a high speed, Ansom was stationary. Here's hoping though.

[Lamech]

I hope Wanda's okay.

How on Erf did Ansom find time to scroll through the sodding document without the fliers reaching him? Considering that Wanda was down and past him already on the last page.
I doubt Wanda died, it wouldn't make sense to have a shield that doesn't protect her mount if she could die from such a short fall.

On the scrolling down: it only takes a second to grab the scroll bar flick it down, he easily had the time. I do wonder what Charlie added to the contract though...

[datalaughing]

They could take the garrison, except that it's not their turn so they can't leave the airspace part of GW to attack the tower part.

[dyslexicfaser]

Ha! Charlie. What a rat. Playing both sides against the middle.

Considering Ansom can wade through Uncroaked like they weren't even there, and the Uncroaked on the wall are going to be even weaker without Wanda's (presumably high) Croakamancer bonus, and considering his gobwins and Dirtamancer are probably still in the tunnels, Parson is going to have to do something personally or Ansom's going to stroll over there and finish off the best caster his side has.

Me, I'm hoping Parson and Bogroll come out there personally to give his third 'Idiot Meal' prize (Leadership! Combat! Ruthlessness!) a workout. Suitably dramatic, don't you think?

[teratorn]

I doubt Wanda died, it wouldn't make sense to have a shield that doesn't protect her mount if she could die from such a short fall.


Wanda's "shield" was the staff. The same staff she used to take the pliers from Ansom, probably neutralising the pliers effect in the same way it blocked the archon's blasts. It would not protect her from the fall. In fact it couldn't protect itself, the staff broke.

We've seen two named characters die again. RIP Webinar and Jaclyn.

[Kreistor]

I highly doubt Wanda is dead, but she is in Courtyard and easily recoverable. And there's the pliers mere metres/yards from her.

[TheTurnipKing]

Not unexpected.

But that's one of the things that separates a real soldier from an armchair strategist.

Real soldiers know that the plan always goes to pieces, but are expert at turning things from a goofup to success through improvisation, daring, and an absolute refusal to give up.

Ansom is only a competent tactician, but he has the qualities above in spades.

If Parson wants to survive these next few turns, he's going to have to come up with some of that, too.

His side needs a hero.

His side doesn't have one.

Now.

If Parson doesn't step up to the plate, I don't know who will.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Don't congratulate Ansom too soon. We have no idea just what concessions he's just had to sign away to Charlie for this victory. This could very well be the moment Ansom lost the war to win a single battle.

While the unit gains he made may have been sacrificed, sacrifice is precisely what those units were intended for. In the meantime, Parson appears to have achieved many of his goals. The pliers still appear to be within his grasp and Stanley is still intact. plus Charlie has moved from an unknown quantity to a known one.

[Zeku]

How I love the archons and their undiluted, corporate evil efficiency.

[kabbor]

Parson: Bogroll, go and fetch Wanda, and grab those pliers.

While having the pliers attune to Wanda would have been obvious, I do prefer that they attune to someone who was considered worthless to those around him.

[Prowl]

So when the image is flipped around the first line or so of the contract Ansom is reading seems to say, "*rem ip**m dolor sit amet consecteturadipisicing elit sed oc ..." * = something covering a letter. Lorem Ipsum. Good to know.

That's something known in the design world as "greeking", standard meaningless boilerplate text intended to demonstrate how actual content would display. The "lorem ipsum dolor sit..." etc. paragraph is the standard out-of-the-box greeking text. In other words, that part of the contract is deliberately meaningless.

[Doug Lampert]

So, the saving grace of this raid was ... it was a horrible object lesson in how NOT to conduct an amphibious operation? And this is the best its defenders can come up with?

DING! *NO SALE*
Agreed on the No Sale, but amphibious is hard. AFAIK the USMarines were the only ones in the world who did any real planning and training for large scale amphibious operations in the ten years or so prior to WWII, and the marines weren't in charge in Europe. So someone was bound to screw it up sooner or later.

If Dieppe hadn't happended the allies might well have screwed up Torch or Sicily even worse than they did. (Neither of those was a screwup on anything like the Epic scale of Dieppe, but both had plenty of bugs.) Personally I seriously doubt they'd have screwed up Normandy all that badly if Deippe hadn't happened, too much US experience in the Pacific and in Torch and Sicily prior to that.

[innovan]

In real life, there's also limits on contracts that can be entered in by a person in behalf of the organization. ie. the Coffee Room guy at Google doesn't have the authority to sign million dollar contracts commiting the rest of the company. He's authorized to enter into contracts for less than $1000 dealing with coffee purchases, and may not exceed his annual purchasing budget.

For most organizations, certainly any large enough to fund an army as large as Ansom's, there is actually a whole internal department for contract review, another for budget, and another for purchasing. No one, absolutely no one, has the ability to tap "I approve" and commit the company to a contract. Not even the CEO and President. Certainly not Ansom. And now Purchasing will be pissed for overstepping their controls for proper review while Budget will be telling him to go to Hell, he's exceeded his limit.

Ansom's "I accept" will be ruled by his empire as invalid by multiple departments almost instantly. They'll jettison him from their org for breach of authority and unauthorized contracting long before they decide to uphold Charlie's contract as valid.

Charlie's an idiot for doing anything up front before checking the enforceability of the contract with Ansom's org. He's going to find his contract isn't worth spit.

[Godskook]

Well, we have an idea what one of those outrageous terms were, or Ansom would have asked for his arkenpliers too, not just the carpet.

1.Pliers aren't in Airspace, so Archons can't help there.

2.With his carpet, Ansom can go get his pliers, assuming there is no stipulation against it in the contract.

[RedMike512]

Maybe Charlie required Ansom to give him Parson, if he wins... We know he hates Parson, so that would probably fit with what he thinks is "unacceptable".

[SteveMB]

In real life, there's also limits on contracts that can be entered in by a person in behalf of the organization. ie. the Coffee Room guy at Google doesn't have the authority to sign million dollar contracts commiting the rest of the company. He's authorized to enter into contracts for less than $1000 dealing with coffee purchases, and may not exceed his annual purchasing budget.

For most organizations, certainly any large enough to fund an army as large as Ansom's, there is actually a whole internal department for contract review, another for budget, and another for purchasing. No one, absolutely no one, has the ability to tap "I approve" and commit the company to a contract. Not even the CEO and President. Certainly not Ansom. And now Purchasing will be pissed for overstepping their controls and Budget will be telling him to go to Hell, he isn't getting the money.

Ansom's "I accept" will be ruled by his empire as invalid by multiple departments almost instantly. They'll jettison him from their org for breach of authority and unauthorized contracting long before they decide to uphold by Charlie's contract as valid.

He is Heir and Chief Warlord, which probably comes with a fair bit of latitude. I suspect that anything that King Slately would consider beyond Ansom's authority would be something that Ansom's Duty to Jetstone would prohibit anyway.

[ReccaSquirrel]

The three big questions:

Is Wanda croaked or just down for the count until GK's turn begins? (For that matter, does Erfworld mechanics even have "unconscious" for a level of damage short of "croaked"?)

How exactly (and how severely) did Charlie hose Ansom?

What is Parson going to do about this shift in the situation?
My view on these questions:
1) No. Down for the count but not out.

2) A Guess? Either he must spare Parson's life or must give Charlie the Arkenpliers.

3) He's going to take that sword of his and slay-slay-slay! And then Stanley will return and defeat the air units and claim he brought victory. :(

[Scylfing]

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed that zombie-Jaclyn didn't get to do anything cool.

Oh well, it's shaping up more and more for an Ansom vs. Parson showdown, which should be all kinds of awesome.

[Ganurath]

Theory as to the contents of the new deal:

If Ansom has the pliers at end of turn, he hands them over to Charlie.
In any case, Ansom cannot use lethal force against the Chief Warlord of Gobwin Knob.

Charlie doesn't strike me as the type to gamble with the things he wants. It's definitely outrageous.

Now how do you think Charlie plans to get around the "dispel summons" Stanlie has over Parson?

[reignofevil]

Charlie can get around the dispel clause easily.
He just has to wait for stanley to come to gobwin knob and kill him.

[slurpz]

Everything moves at the speed of plot. Hence, why Wanda and her airborne posse appeared to move so slowly relative to Ansom.

[Godskook]

3) He's going to take that sword of his and slay-slay-slay! And then Stanley will return and defeat the air units and claim he brought victory. :(

That isn't Ansom's sword that Ansom is holding. It is clearly the rusted sword of an uncroaked. I just wish i could've thought of a movie quote to point that out with.

[dyslexicfaser]

Parson: Bogroll, go and fetch Wanda, and grab those pliers.

While having the pliers attune to Wanda would have been obvious, I do prefer that they attune to someone who was considered worthless to those around him.

Bogroll, Tool of the Titans?

That would be hilarious.

[the_tick_rules]

man, parson can't catch a break.

[Lamech]

Huh I had hoped the uncroaked Archon was down on the ground out of Archon range waiting for Ansom. Ah well, Charlie is a jerk I hope he dies.

Finally, if those Archons have a limited number of shots, Jacks return could really boop them over...

[DarkCloud]

In real life, there's also limits on contracts that can be entered in by a person in behalf of the organization. ie. the Coffee Room guy at Google doesn't have the authority to sign million dollar contracts commiting the rest of the company. He's authorized to enter into contracts for less than $1000 dealing with coffee purchases, and may not exceed his annual purchasing budget.
...

Charlie's an idiot for doing anything up front before checking the enforceability of the contract with Ansom's org. He's going to find his contract isn't worth spit.

If Charlie believed he had entered into contract with the person elgible to make the deals (which as LEADER OF THE ALLIANCE and acting in the midst of battle as a battle leader) one would assume Ansom should be, then Charlie was acting on good faith.

And if charlie was acting on good faith, he just gave Ansom's alliance valuable consideration in the form of doing what Ansom wanted.

Thus, Ansom would be estopped from making a claim that there is no contract since Charlie relied on his signature to provide value.

Ansom might attempt to assert duress. And he may have a case there if the terms are found to be unconscionable. BUT Ansom is a sophisticated bargainer. Unless the terms are utterly ridiculous and give Ansom nothing, Duress probably won't save him.

The K is probably valid.

[dr pepper]

Lame.
Wanda fell just like Ansom in the previous strip.
I didn't like how the Archon blasted the airforce, but it was expected (though with that power they could take the entire garrison easily), but the Wanda thing was totally plot driven (she was already out of their reach imo).
She'd better get up (just like Ansom and it wasn't that high, helmets are real weak in Erfworld) in the next strip and pick up the arkenpliers or I'm gonna pout :p

I'd kind of like to see a pouting beholder.

[Glome]

Honestly the only way I can see Parson winning right now is if he captures/kills Ansom before the alliance's next turn. The pliers will be powerful if they can be attuned, but I don't see how they negate being attacked by an Archon force powerful enough alone to take out Gobwin Knob on top of the Jetstone force outside of their walls.

Parson better get his boop out to the wall to confront Ansom personally if he wants to end this.

[ShinyBrowncoat]

In real life, there's also limits on contracts that can be entered in by a person in behalf of the organization.

[snip]

Ansom's "I accept" will be ruled by his empire as invalid by multiple departments almost instantly. They'll jettison him from their org for breach of authority and unauthorized contracting long before they decide to uphold Charlie's contract as valid.

Charlie's an idiot for doing anything up front before checking the enforceability of the contract with Ansom's org. He's going to find his contract isn't worth spit.

Can anyone spot the logical fallacy? ;)

[dr pepper]

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed that zombie-Jaclyn didn't get to do anything cool.


But the look on her face at being blasted by her sisters was way cool.

[dr pepper]

Send Bogroll to protect Wanda. Send the knights and spidews to attack Ansom. Call Jack for a status report. Keep the sword handy.

Remind yourself that real gamers don't cry.

[Faultline]

Wanda was going after the pliers, not at Ansom. You'd expect the reaction time of a bunch of flying uncroaked to be slow, leaving Ansom enough time to "enjoy" Charlie's contract.

I think Wanda is alive.

Ansom has two options now:

1) return to the walls without the Arkenpliers and fight the uncroaked fairly, trying to breach the outer walls so he can attack with all his land fighters; remember that he needs total control of the outer walls and a breach to put any land units into the garrison, and then recover the pliers;

2) remount his carpet (becoming a flying unit), and then enter the garrison zone from the airspace zone which his side (thanks to his ally Charlie) now has total control of; once in the garrison zone he can try to recover the pliers alone, but Parson can freely move units into the courtyard at the same time.

[Miklus]

I just had a thought...


Wanda is a master croakamancer...What if she has made fail-safes on herself? Such as a spell that kicks in if she dies? She could rise as an uncroaked...and grab the Arkenpliers! How scary is that? :smalleek:

[Aquillion]

I just had a thought...


Wanda is a master croakamancer...What if she has made fail-safes on herself? Such as a spell that kicks in if she dies? She could rise as an uncroaked...and grab the Arkenpliers! How scary is that? :smalleek:
Not very scary? She'd turn to dust instantly.

[Asplode]

Hi, been following both OOTS and Erfworld since the beginning but only just now bothered to register and comment on one of them

I'm not sure if I enjoy the looming presence of Charlie being this deux ex machina, it really throws off the plotting and setup that the other, more tangible parties are spending many comics building.

Charlie and his uh... battlefield solutions agency just feels like this insurmountable force with the presence and resources to influence just about anything, anywhere, exactly as he wants to.
This leaves me wondering why Charlie even bothers to manipulate the battle as he does, which is presumably to gain leverage in order to obtain a greater amount of power, but this is unconvincing because it's clear that he's got the presence and the strength to get whatever he wants already.

That would leave the only viable motivation for this Charlie faction to even be involved in this conflict... to be personal amusement.
Which is simply trite.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

[Sieggy]

For the first time, my willing suspension of disbelief took one hell of a beating . . . Time was unrealistically extended for Ansom, and compressed for Wanda, which collapses the imaginestate for me.

In the last frame of 120, Ansom is being invited to read the contract, as Wanda is in a power dive, with three tiers of stairs / platforms visible behind her and the Unipegataur. I'm not sure of the total number of tiers on the wall, but it looked to me like five (assuming the levels of the siege towers matched the internal levels of the wall).

So, Ansom must
read a legal document (carefully),
scroll down a couple of times,
object,
be rebuffed,
and in desperation press 'I Accept'.
Then the Archons do their recitation,
and proceed to deal their damage.

In the meantime, Wanda apparently hasn't moved at all. Given her speed of descent, and since she was well over halfway down the wall when Ansom first started reading, she should have been on the ground by the time Ansom expressed his outrage.

As it was, Wanda was able to use her staff to defend herself (you can see bolts bouncing off the shield it generated, though if she were diving, the angles are very peculiar, it looks like the fire is coming in from in front of her) but was unable to protect her mount. I'm just not buying the time passage between the sides, they simply are unbelievable.

And the uncroaked are apparently just standing around at first (120.7 and 121.1), not closing until after the agreement is reached. They looked maybe twenty feet from Ansom - even shambling, they should have been able to zerg him in a very few seconds, especially since he took the time to mourn Webinar and then shout for Charlie. He should have been up to his kiester in uncroaked while trying to read the contract.

T'is a quibble, but an annoying one . . .

[K2]

get up! grab the tool, win the fight!

[teratorn]

I'm not sure if I enjoy the looming presence of Charlie being this deux ex machina, it really throws off the plotting and setup that the other, more tangible parties are spending many comics building.

Huh, where did you get the idea that Charlie is such a major player? Charlescomm forces present have only enough power to take a weak GK without dwagons. The coalition had 4 times the power to take GK when GK still had the dwagons. And that was because of the walls. In open field the advantage was 12:1 for RCC, The coalition is many times stronger than Charlie.

More than 30 archons against 4 uncroaked fliers, that wasn't much of a fight.

[Chewy]

Honestly this doesn't go well with me so much things don't make sense. Like why was wanda shot when she was below the walls? Why was she not instantly teleported to ground space hex since it is zero move were talking about. If the lasers reached her while she was actually BELOW the wall why doesn't the garrison count as air space then. Not to mention the fact that how can charlie's archons even make a move. Yes their in the GK's airspace, but a party has to attack if no warlord is present. I still refuse to believe charlie sent 30 warlord class units to take a city just as how i refuse to believe a single nation is able to pop only warlord classes. Then there's the problem of why didn't wanda shield her mount that makes no real sense either. The time compression is also hard to believe too. There is no possible way Ansom can digest that contract and not have the air force already closed in on him OR the ground troops for that matter.

[TheTurnipKing]

That's something known in the design world as "greeking", standard meaningless boilerplate text intended to demonstrate how actual content would display. The "lorem ipsum dolor sit..." etc. paragraph is the standard out-of-the-box greeking text. In other words, that part of the contract is deliberately meaningless.
It's not an eventuality I consider likely, but it is at least worth considering the possibility that lorem ipsum may have some hidden meaning in the Erfworld universe. A lot of real world stuff seems to have that effect here :) For example, it could be the contractual equivalent of a "blank cheque" or something, meaning Charlie can modify the contract after the fact and still have it legally enforced.

[Lamech]

read a legal document (carefully),
scroll down a couple of times,
object,
be rebuffed,
and in desperation press 'I Accept'.
Then the Archons do their recitation,
and proceed to deal their damage.
Erm... Ansom didn't have to read the whole document he had already seen most of it; in fact he asked "Where..." in referance to the changes. All he had to do was scroll down a couple times, read a line tops, yell at Charlie, and click accept. Maybe a second for the scrolling half for reading the line (or maybe as little as a word), yell at Charlie, and press accept. That would only take a few seconds. And the archons where firing while reading off there mission statement.

In the meantime, Wanda apparently hasn't moved at all. Given her speed of descent, and since she was well over halfway down the wall when Ansom first started reading, she should have been on the ground by the time Ansom expressed his outrage.
Erm... she moved quite a bit she had almost landed, it appears to me that the unipegataur had stopped diving, leveled off, and was begining to land. Fliers apperantly can't land at full speed, and take a bit of time to enter and leave a dive.

I don't really see any problems here; especially considering how flying is magic in Erfworld...

[datalaughing]

I still refuse to believe charlie sent 30 warlord class units to take a city just as how i refuse to believe a single nation is able to pop only warlord classes.

No reason to think they pop as warlords. Hell, I'm not sure we have any evidence that anybody pops as a warlord. The warlords that we've seen whose pasts we actually know were either royals (royalty could easily come with warlord abilities) or were promoted to warlord. Stanley, all of his former warlords, and Parson were all promoted to the position.

It's possible that these particular units have all been given the position of warlords. For all we know it's some sort of profit-sharing thing (given the corporate theme they've got going). In the merc. business, though, it would pay to have your people be able to make decisions on their own in the field. Initially he only sent the three archons. He couldn't just send three units with no one capable of making decisions about engagements. Bad for business if they accidentally run into a bunch of enemies and auto-attack when they should turn tail.

Or maybe just one of the archons has been promoted to warlord, and we can't tell which one it is. I think they'd only need one warlord in the airspace section of GK to decide whether or not to attack. Or maybe Charlie's super thinkamancy and his link to them gives him the ability to make warlord decisions for them as if he were in the hex. There's all sorts of possibilities. You've just chosen to latch onto the ones that make the least sense.

[Shua]

Please dont' let Wanda die... I hope she's got another uuddlrlrbass move up her sleeve.

~ Shua

[DragoonKain]

For those of you campaigning about breach of contract and authority and yadda yadda, Charlie's contracts are magically binding and thus supersede any mundane authority - the signee must fulfill the terms. I don't think Stanley would have approved of Parson's deal, either.

[Chewy]

No reason to think they pop as warlords. Hell, I'm not sure we have any evidence that anybody pops as a warlord. The warlords that we've seen whose pasts we actually know were either royals (royalty could easily come with warlord abilities) or were promoted to warlord. Stanley, all of his former warlords, and Parson were all promoted to the position.

It's possible that these particular units have all been given the position of warlords. For all we know it's some sort of profit-sharing thing (given the corporate theme they've got going). In the merc. business, though, it would pay to have your people be able to make decisions on their own in the field. Initially he only sent the three archons. He couldn't just send three units with no one capable of making decisions about engagements. Bad for business if they accidentally run into a bunch of enemies and auto-attack when they should turn tail.

Or maybe just one of the archons has been promoted to warlord, and we can't tell which one it is. I think they'd only need one warlord in the airspace section of GK to decide whether or not to attack. Or maybe Charlie's super thinkamancy and his link to them gives him the ability to make warlord decisions for them as if he were in the hex. There's all sorts of possibilities. You've just chosen to latch onto the ones that make the least sense.

Your right there are limitless possibilities, but they aren't SHOWN to us so I can only work with whats been established. I choose this option because that's how its been shown in the comic. There has been no indication that archons are warlords or warlords are present.

If all units can be given warlord status why not have every single unit be a warlord then. Warlord gives basic leadership bonus while probably also counting into the stack bonus this also gives you control over every single battle. If all units can be warlord there is no reason NOT to have all units being warlord or at least have all stacks with a warlord and yet RC sent warlordless stacks to fight dragons, stanley had a warlordless spidew group, the dragons were warlordless when they grabbed Jillian.

[ghost81]

An earlier poster said 'Lame' and I must admit I'm somewhat inclined to agree with them. I'm getting fed up with some continually saving Ansom's boop, when he messes up. Frakkin' enough already (pardon my Caprican). However this is just my feelings, but to me that strip felt like a complete U-turn.

That said I'm sure it'll all pan out eventually - I was just looking forward to Ansom finally getting his just deserts - appears I'll have to wait longer for that.

[Moechi_Vill]

Laws of story assure Wanda's survival... unless it's a clear death a main character will not be offed like that.

[Voyager]

Honestly this doesn't go well with me so much things don't make sense. Like why was wanda shot when she was below the walls? Why was she not instantly teleported to ground space hex since it is zero move were talking about. If the lasers reached her while she was actually BELOW the wall why doesn't the garrison count as air space then. Not to mention the fact that how can charlie's archons even make a move. Yes their in the GK's airspace, but a party has to attack if no warlord is present. I still refuse to believe charlie sent 30 warlord class units to take a city just as how i refuse to believe a single nation is able to pop only warlord classes. Then there's the problem of why didn't wanda shield her mount that makes no real sense either. The time compression is also hard to believe too. There is no possible way Ansom can digest that contract and not have the air force already closed in on him OR the ground troops for that matter.



Archons are special units.

Wanda took damage from the attack which destroyed her mount. It was represented as afall the same way good DMs will describe the damage from highly successfull attacks with more than Your sword does 52 hp of damage. The Kobald is dead. In fact, we've seen no indication at all that fall damage is included in Erfworld mechanics.

Actually, back on the Archons, you state that a party has to attack if it has no Warlord. I would postulate that it only extends to Enemy units, and so long as Charlie is a Neutral Party, Parson's units are not enemy units, and as such do not provoke an automatic attack. However, the moment Ansom signes the contract, Parson's units do become hostile, and do provoke the automatic attack. In fact, the way the Archons attack is fully consistent with an auto-attack; they simply fly everything that is in their hex. They move out of their hex until next turn, and they'll have Ansom there, or, at least, enough Parson units to randomly expend all of their attacks upon.

On the time compression, Deal With the Devil can be played as either an instant cast or an interupt, but the DM in the sky will ask you if you really wanted to play that card.

Harry Voyager

Gozilla-san aways wins in Tokyo Skyline

[SeraphRainy]

Can anyone spot the logical fallacy? ;)

Yees shiny I can spot maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaany logical errors in his theory about null contracts.

One: MAGIC BINDING CONTRACT Hullo (as stated just previously in this thread.)

Two: Not charlies first contract. Honestly why would he make it if he did not KNOW it was binding. Charlie always gets paid... Just like the devil.:smallamused:

Three: Ansome is prince charged with a great deal of authority to lead a coalition and even more authority for making a combat decision.(IE: along the lines of emergency funds or a field promotion.)

Four: Even if the few people in jetstone that are higher ups to ansome wanted to just null the contract, it was made by ansome as an acting RCC officer and this would put an untrustworthy taint on jetstones forigne affairs. Thus it is a matter of jetstones honor that would have very real affects on their realm. (Not to mention dis assosiating the Prince and heir is a baaaaad move)

Five: Ansome has obviously signed contracts before even with charlscomm. The very fact that he did sign shows that it is acceptable. (Also its magicaly binding and so far no one has broken one of his contracts. Charlie always gets paid.) He is wholy loyal to his country and his cause if the contract put his country/cause in (to much) danger he would die before signing it. (Unless he was a more valuable asset to them than whatever he gave up.)

Six: Finaly our world is not erfworld. Charlie is extra special because he is set up like a business but the rest of erfworld is not. Their single leaders are lords and warlords for pity sake! So there likely is no formal org/finances/budget branches and even if there are their authority does not supercede royalty. (The whole divine mandaite thing that everyone seems to have been indoctrinated with.) So yeah the budget advisers say, "Hey this BOOP spent xxx, gave away blah blah blah, and ceded xxx properties to charlie in a combat presed situaition! You should have him fired!!!"

Then command structure of Jetstone (IE: The king) says, "Thats my son and price you called a BOOP now Off with Your booping heads for badmouthing my heir apparent." "Oh and you should have let me spend what I wanted on that hot-tub."

Seven: Charlie ahs Looots of archons in ansome very near to personaly space. It would be a baaaad idea to cross him. (Did I mention that Charlie always gets paid?):smallwink:

Welllllll the rant is ove-wait here comes another one:

For those of you complaining about the timing it makes perfect sense when you factor some things in and figure out that more than one panel can be going on at the same time. *GASP* (Oh holy BOOP say it aint so!)

Yes Ansom has likely red some of charlies contract before and he doesnt have to read all of it just comprehend it which could be merehly skimming it.

Wanda may have gon into a dive but she had a looong way to dive and most likely had advers thoughts to taking a hard landing and going ca-put on the stones.

It was never said taht movement between hexes or zones is instant only that movement is free between city zones and that units dont tire from it.

Ansome could very well pull an action stunt and re-croak uncroaked while he reads so he doesnt get "zerged."

AAAAAnd the WAF had to restack and presumably reform up before following ansome from what was a considerable fall. (And who knows how difficult it is to manuver in the air in erfworld.)

All this adds up to equal ample time for ansome to get up, skim the contract, make token complaints at charlie (Because he HAD to signe it.) then accept and let the archons blast everything.

So before wanda touched down she was still "within" the air zone and the archons shot her down. She was obviously about to touch down and far away from archons. However she had not yet touched down and was apparently slowing, therefor making a better target, and there were twenty four plus archons that could open up. At least five of these were shooting the WAF next to ansome and at most 10. (Thats two for each unit including the warlords riding in.) Still that leaves at least fourteen honory (See the archon making faces at Parson who is presumably unfriendly or resentful.) archons to shoot at Wanda, they could have even seen ansome negotiating and taken aim/ moved to better positioning. It does speak however that only a few actualy shot effectivly at wanda.

eheh hands.... hurt...:smalltongue:

[BossMuro]

I think it's totally possible that all of Charlie's Archons have warlord, or more likely caster status(Sending or being a focus for thinkograms, detecting magic, plus the minor stuff like flight and lasers suggests they have at least a little magic power). The way I see it, instead of fielding huge masses of troops with high level leaders and elites, his entire military consists of a few dozen supersoldiers. In a stand up fight against most real armies they'd lose, but they make for great strike forces, especially in a case like this where they have complete air superiority. Charlie probably relies on the isolation of his main base and a lack of any actual enemies for security.

That last part might also explain why he didn't just take the city once his archons were there. As long as he's just a mercenary businessman, "eccentricities" like a constantly switching sides and changing his contracts at the last minute are tolerated. If people start to see him as an actual country, they might get pissed off about his seeming lack of honor, or start wondering if he's noble born or not. And that would be bad for him.

[Radar]

Your right there are limitless possibilities, but they aren't SHOWN to us so I can only work with whats been established. I choose this option because that's how its been shown in the comic. There has been no indication that archons are warlords or warlords are present.

If all units can be given warlord status why not have every single unit be a warlord then. Warlord gives basic leadership bonus while probably also counting into the stack bonus this also gives you control over every single battle. If all units can be warlord there is no reason NOT to have all units being warlord or at least have all stacks with a warlord and yet RC sent warlordless stacks to fight dragons, stanley had a warlordless spidew group, the dragons were warlordless when they grabbed Jillian.
All infantry units can be promoted, to warlord status (see Stanley - he started out as a pikeman). It's not that common, because it costs loads of schmuckers. Worlords can also be produced directly as well. For reference see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0048.html).

[ishnar]

Charlie and his uh... battlefield solutions agency just feels like this insurmountable force with the presence and resources to influence just about anything, anywhere, exactly as he wants to.
This leaves me wondering why Charlie even bothers to manipulate the battle as he does, which is presumably to gain leverage in order to obtain a greater amount of power, but this is unconvincing because it's clear that he's got the presence and the strength to get whatever he wants already.


Charlie called the current fiasco the "Great Western Conflict." implying that the goings on here is only a fraction of the world. Charlie's strength is based on positioning mainly. Also, that's not what Deux Ex Machina means. Everything Charlie has done has been foreshadowed and falls entirely within current plot dynamics.

----
As for Ansom reading the contract, I stand by what I said before. It's TBS. In TBS games alliance contracts pop-up and you have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD to consider them, even if the occur mid-battle. Consider it being in a time-bubble of sorts.

In TBS all minions with diplomatic abilities have FULL diplomatic abilities. So I don't see any problem there. It's a game dynamic to simplify gameplay.

---

I think Wanda's staff breaking right with the pliers just out of reach pretty much nails the coffin shut as to who is going to be getting the pliers next. Narrative Causality puts it at a one-in-a-million chance that Wanda gets up and gets the pliers before someone else does. When a main character's weapon breaks in the presence of an artifact weapon, the artifact weapon is as good as theirs.

[Heavenfall]

I remember a couple of months ago the question arose of item transportation (and in tubes, information) over zone limits. One user proposed that it would be possible to move an item an infinitely long way by handing it from edge to edge in each zone. Since none of the units involved actually used movement, it was a cost-free way to move items.

Now the carpet is lost, and the angels are in fact not in the same square as Ansom. This either means that 1) The angels will not return the carpet until Ansoms turn or 2) The item transportation hack is possible

Someone above posted that there was a possibility that there was no fall damage in this game. If that was the case, Ansom could simply jump off the wall back to his troops.

[Xiander]

Can anyone spot the logical fallacy? ;)

Other than the fact that the entire argument is based on premises that does not apply?

[Robak]

The carpet can definitely be moved to Ansom (PClips said something about note-apssing within the column).
Wanda cannot be dead, she's too much of a main character and if she dies it has to be from another main character, i.e. Ansom or Jillian.
I agree about the weapon-breaking-just-next-to-the-artifact. Wanda gets the pliers.
Contract definitely is valid, because its magically binding, just like the one Parson made with Charlie.

[Sweetie Welf]

...
Welllllll the rant is ove-wait here comes another one:
...


Thanks, you saved a lot of ranting time for me :)

I think Parson's primary concern right now should be the carpet. If Ansom gets his carpet back, he can again start to attack the uncroaked troops and make a breach for the siege. And because of his status as flying unit and without the WAF he hardly could be attacked. Parson should order his archers to concentrate their fire on the carpet.
And find out who stand's next to the Pliers and Wanda and tell him to bring him both this instant. A warlord can never have enough items or artifacts to boost his bonuses. And for unconscious people Maggie seems to be the best doctor available. Capturing a healer from the Altruist elves should be noted on Parson's ToDo list.

[Scylfing]

Talking is a Free Action, people, jeez.

However, Sieggy makes a good a point:

In the last frame of 120, Ansom is being invited to read the contract, as Wanda is in a power dive, with three tiers of stairs / platforms visible behind her and the Unipegataur. I'm not sure of the total number of tiers on the wall, but it looked to me like five (assuming the levels of the siege towers matched the internal levels of the wall).

So, Ansom must
read a legal document (carefully),
scroll down a couple of times,
object,
be rebuffed,
and in desperation press 'I Accept'.
Then the Archons do their recitation,
and proceed to deal their damage.

In the meantime, Wanda apparently hasn't moved at all. Given her speed of descent, and since she was well over halfway down the wall when Ansom first started reading, she should have been on the ground by the time Ansom expressed his outrage.

As it was, Wanda was able to use her staff to defend herself (you can see bolts bouncing off the shield it generated, though if she were diving, the angles are very peculiar, it looks like the fire is coming in from in front of her) but was unable to protect her mount.

The angles of attack in the panel where Wanda and her mount get shot really do look more than a bit naff, since in the following panel shows she's only maybe 4 of her body lengths off the ground but we know the walls are much higher than that--and the Archons are even higher above that. There are even shots coming from below her fer cryin' out loud.

I think that panel was drawn too much in parallel to the one preceding it where the other uncroaked flyers got blasted, which for that one makes sense because they're shown earlier as diving toward Ansom and the Archons. Wanda though is at an angle far below their position. I don't see how that works.

[Senex]

I think Wanda just had a Roy-moment. :(

Oh, and congratulations to Charlie for winning the war.

[DigoDragon]

The Bogroll card (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0095.html) hasn't been played yet.[/list]

But where are we going to find a Strawberry Coke at this hour? :smallsmile:


I have to say that the whole recital of the mission statement made me grind my teeth because it seems that every company I've worked for uses a similar outline... except for the airspace saturation part.

No wait, there was that insurance company... :smallconfused:

[MickJay]

I agree with the people who are guessing that the amendment involved turning over pliers to Charlie (and perhaps Hamster as well), in one way or another, the request for carpet -only- seems to nail that down.

I don't understand why some people think Charlie betrayed someone (or anyone, for that matter). He works per contract, and as far as we know he has yet to break one; for a mercenary, his reputation is everything. Charlie was not involved on either side in any way that could be considered "betrayal" of the other. On top of that, he even gave a fair warning to Parson that he might still be aiding RCC in the future (which is currently happening).

Erf is a world working like a turn based game, and things we see as real time might not be exactly that, but merely depictions of phases within a turn. Ansom might have used part of his movement or taken a free action when signing the contract. When playing tbs it's often possible to move some units, then make/dissolve an alliance and use remaining moves in an altered environment (e.g. zones of control are different).

[teratorn]

I think that panel was drawn too much in parallel to the one preceding it where the other uncroaked flyers got blasted, which for that one makes sense because they're shown earlier as diving toward Ansom and the Archons. Wanda though is at an angle far below their position. I don't see how that works.

Wanda is approaching the ground so she had to slow down and get into a more horizontal posture. And what makes you think there are no archons at lower heights? There are tens of those creatures...

I see no problem with the angles, and not even with the time. As MickJay points out things flow as in a game. In games there are "rounds," that is periods when you can take a given action. Reading a contract may take the same "time" for 10 lines or a 100 lines contract.

Wanda had the other fliers break from her stack while she dived, this means they had to reform and restack, and as such she got ahead of them.

As I see it:

--In the same round Ansom hits the wall, Wanda dives for the pliers. The other fliers have to split from Wanda and restack, and only move on the "next round."
--Ansom discusses with the archons and signs the contract, Wanda's fliers dive for Ansom, while Wanda covers most of the distance from the top of the wall to the ground.
--Jaclyn and the other fliers are hit just when they were going to land. All the archons fire, including some at lower heights, and those are the ones hitting Wanda.

I also think that Wanda fell very close to the ground (during her landing "round"), so she's still alive.


For me, even when in "real time hex-fight mode" Erfworld is a world where you have enough "time" to decide what to do, like in a regular RPG.

[ReccaSquirrel]

That isn't Ansom's sword that Ansom is holding. It is clearly the rusted sword of an uncroaked. I just wish i could've thought of a movie quote to point that out with.

I was talking about Parson with that answer.

[Lamech]

[quote=Scylfing]The angles of attack in the panel where Wanda and her mount get shot really do look more than a bit naff, since in the following panel shows she's only maybe 4 of her body lengths off the ground but we know the walls are much higher than that--and the Archons are even higher above that. There are even shots coming from below her fer cryin' out loud.[quote]
The airspace is apperantly everything that isn't on the ground, so an Archon could easily have been below Wanda. That and a little curve from the floor of the volcano.

[Faultline]

I agree with the people who are guessing that the amendment involved turning over pliers to Charlie (and perhaps Hamster as well), in one way or another, the request for carpet -only- seems to nail that down.


I agree about the probable contract change, but I think an additional reason the archons are not getting the pliers is they have no move left. Their move dropped to zero when Charlie ended turn in the morning, and now they can't move from airspace to garrison until tomorrow.

No wait; airspace borders tower, not courtyard. So there are only two ways someone from Ansom's side can get the pliers this turn: breach the walls and enter the courtyard or conquer the tower with fliers and then enter the courtyard through the tower. Coalition units can't move directly from airspace to courtyard, by my reading of klog 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0129.html)

[Whispri]

Talking is a Free Action, people, jeez.
If you look to the prior page you will note that in the last three panels Wanda is speeding downwards while Ansom and the Archon talk. The other flyers were unable to cover a much shorter distance in a much longer period of time.

[quindraco]

----
As for Ansom reading the contract, I stand by what I said before. It's TBS. In TBS games alliance contracts pop-up and you have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD to consider them, even if the occur mid-battle. Consider it being in a time-bubble of sorts.

In TBS all minions with diplomatic abilities have FULL diplomatic abilities. So I don't see any problem there. It's a game dynamic to simplify gameplay.

---


The only TBS I'm aware of is a television station. You keep bringing this up, however. What the boop is TBS as you mean it?

[Whispri]

Turn Based Strategy.

[Noeru]

Com'on ppl, Wanda is NOT dead, there's no X in her eye. :smallfrown:

Also, isn't it obvious what will happen next?

Major character took critical damage and hit the ground hard, lying motionless on the ground while the evil overlord is approaching.

With her weapon broken and nearly defenseless, it's seem a inevitable tragedy is approaching. Yet, within a few feet, there's a powerfully legendary weapon that only a few is destined to unitize its power.

Then author end the chapter with the reader is left hanging on the cliff, anxiously awaiting the fate of our heroine. The author will then make sure he release the next installment late just to torture the reader becoz our agony and suffering will make their food xtra sweet.

[Lamech]

If you look to the prior page you will note that in the last three panels Wanda is speeding downwards while Ansom and the Archon talk. The other flyers were unable to cover a much shorter distance in a much longer period of time.
Wanda was diving down at full speed. I wonder what would have happened to the other flyers if they tried that? Lets see... ohh... right they would have hit the wall at full speed, and splated. Wow... I wonder why that didn't happen...

Sorry, if you were not complaining about the fliers not reaching Ansom I kind of had a rant coming on...

[Whispri]

Wanda was diving down at full speed. I wonder what would have happened to the other flyers if they tried that? Lets see... ohh... right they would have hit the wall at full speed, and splated. Wow... I wonder why that didn't happen...

Sorry, if you were not complaining about the fliers not reaching Ansom I kind of had a rant coming on...
Notice how quickly the Uncroaked Archon covers the space between them when she finally starts moving?

And again, more time, smaller distance, they wouldn't need to swoop right down on him (hello wall, what a lovely runway you make), there was no need to suck out any sense of Ansom actually being in danger by giving him time to do paperwork.

It's not the idea that he could touch 'I Accept' before they reached him that bothers me, or that Wanda lost her mount before she reached the Pliers, that was always on the cards. It's the way Ansom has time to dawdle that leaves my SOD swaying in the breeze.

[the_tick_rules]

Is Ansom wielding a sword? Where'd he get that if so? Those don't look like the pliers.

[Whispri]

Is Ansom wielding a sword? Where'd he get that if so? Those don't look like the pliers.
He dusted a lot of Uncroaked, he must have grabbed one of their discarded weapons.

[MalikT]

Wanda will definitively attune to pliers, which raises the question what terrible power will she unlock.

On other thought, how do we know this chapter will end with a conclusion, for all we know it might end with a cliffhanger: archons descending to attack the garrison.

[Scylfing]

Wanda is approaching the ground so she had to slow down and get into a more horizontal posture. And what makes you think there are no archons at lower heights? There are tens of those creatures...

What makes me think that is that in all previous panels featuring archons floating above Gobwin Knob, they are all shown either above the outer walls or near the tower, neither of which are anywhere near the bottom of the courtyard where Wanda is--and she was almost directly above the pliers when she was hit.

I dunno, I'm probably being nitpicky here but those sure are some Magic Bullets that the archons are using. :smalltongue:

If you look to the prior page you will note that in the last three panels Wanda is speeding downwards while Ansom and the Archon talk. The other flyers were unable to cover a much shorter distance in a much longer period of time.

Yes I know, but that kind of time dilation happens all the time especially in comics when writers need to fit plot-needed dialogue into an action scene, hence the trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction).

[Tricky]

To be fair, assuming she's conscious, Wanda is two feet from the Arkenpliers. If she actually can attune to them, as many here have speculated, that could be overwhelming. Even if she can't, they're now in space Parson controls, and he can freely move units there to get them. Holding them must give him some kind of advantage.

a) Wanda is at least unconscious.
b) and more to the point, I think Charlie's plan includes somebody grabbing the Arkenpliers. Charlie controls the area around the pliers.

[Whispri]

He controls the airspace, but it's landed in a Zone he can't enter until tomorrow.

Yes I know, but that kind of time dilation happens all the time especially in comics when writers need to fit plot-needed dialogue into an action scene, hence the trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TalkingIsAFreeAction).
And being able to name a Trope justifies this how? 'Sides, there's a big difference between talking and reading important documents. Plus time didn't stand still for Wanda, and hasn't done so for Parson's team at any point during the recent fighting.

[Tricky]

At the risk of piling on here...

In real life, there's also limits on contracts that can be entered in by a person in behalf of the organization. ie. the Coffee Room guy at Google doesn't have the authority to sign million dollar contracts commiting the rest of the company. He's authorized to enter into contracts for less than $1000 dealing with coffee purchases, and may not exceed his annual purchasing budget.
[snip]

Ansom's "I accept" will be ruled by his empire as invalid by multiple departments almost instantly. They'll jettison him from their org for breach of authority and unauthorized contracting long before they decide to uphold Charlie's contract as valid.

Charlie's an idiot for doing anything up front before checking the enforceability of the contract with Ansom's org. He's going to find his contract isn't worth spit.

What are you smoking?
a) Ansom is a leader of a feudal-style organization, not a corporation.
b) What are these "departments" you speak of? I see a world with magical pliers and "tardy elves".

Similar comments go to the people whinging about how much time Ansom had to read the contract. The genre here is Extremely Silly Fantasy. Criticisms based on modern corporate law or presumptions about how Newtonian physics should work in a comic-book world seem completely irrelevant.

[innovan]

In the beginning of the story, we were told that Parson wrote this as an unwinnable scenario simply between Gobwin Knob and the Jetstone invasion.

Now we have Superforce Charlie interjected into everything to make it even more unwinnable? It's become the all-Charlie show with Parson the minor character unable to do anything. It seems the ultimate warlord is Charlie, not Parson.

And did Parson's Luck-a-Mancy charms ever work today? Or any of his cool artifacts? Nope, they sat unused and ignored once again.

And if the theory of Bogroll being a golem with damage regeneration is true ---doesn't that mean after he's killed he'll regenerate as two golems?

[MalikT]

To all those who ask: why is Wanda blasted from all directions, or how did Ansom read the contract so quickly, two words: artistic freedom.

[AdmiralKit]

I'm still not sure that we know whether Wanda is alive or not. On page 83, Misty the Lookamancer was dead and she didn't have X's on her eyes. There's nothing to guarantee that she's alive, though nothing to say that she's dead, either.

Re: the contract stuff - if we were using US legal mechanics as a basis for contract law, I wouldn't think that Ansom would be considered under duress here (IANAL). Duress is a pretty specific set of circumstances, like me threatening you if you don't sign a contract signing away your house or something. If you're about to lose your house to a third party (Charlie, in this case) and you say, "I need your help," though, the third party is more than welcome to bend you over a barrell in the negotiation process. Charlie knows that Ansom (who, as heir designate to the Jetstone empire and leader of the coalition forces, would have a LOT of authority to deal with contracts) has little room for negotiation, and thus is going to make sure he can get everything he can. As others have pointed out, the contract is going to be magically binding and we've got no idea what Charlie has asked for in exchange.

Anyway, I get the feeling that the Battle for Gobwin Knob is only the first of many chapters in the Erfworld series, and thus any outcome where Parson comes out alive allows for building more stories in unexpected directions. Everyone else can bite the dust as far as the story is concerned. We don't even know all of the players and factions in Erfworld, so Parson could conceivably end up with Gobwin Knob by winning, Charlie by losing, or somehow with Jetstone if they've got a lawyer on their side who can figure out how to screw Charlie for a change.

[Scylfing]

And being able to name a Trope justifies this how? 'Sides, there's a big difference between talking and reading important documents. Plus time didn't stand still for Wanda, and hasn't done so for Parson's team at any point during the recent fighting.

Who said anything about justifying? I'm just pointing out the joke, I'm fairly certain it's supposed to be taken as humorous to have Ansom pause the fight to read a contract, a "Lorem Ipsum" one at that. :smalltongue:

artistic freedom

Fair enough.

[Chewy]

----
As for Ansom reading the contract, I stand by what I said before. It's TBS. In TBS games alliance contracts pop-up and you have ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD to consider them, even if the occur mid-battle. Consider it being in a time-bubble of sorts.

In TBS all minions with diplomatic abilities have FULL diplomatic abilities. So I don't see any problem there. It's a game dynamic to simplify gameplay.

---


this comic has shown it is more RTT then TBS. During the dragon fight Ansom joined the battle and killed the warlord in midswing hence turns cannot exist.

[SteveMB]

this comic has shown it is more RTT then TBS. During the dragon fight Ansom joined the battle and killed the warlord in midswing hence turns cannot exist.

Turns definitely exist on a strategic level -- each side has its turn during a certain part of the day, in a certain order, and that's when their units can move to different hexes/zones. Whether combat within turns is "realtime" or some sort of "tactical round" structure is less clear, though Stanley's incredulous incomprehension (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html) of the idea of realtime warfare might be taken to imply the latter.

[Partywhipple]

I REALLY hope the writer is implying that Ansom only read one or two words of that (*$#$*#)$ contract. There is no way he could have read anything before those flying units hosed him. Also, he better be zombie bait. But he won't be I assume. Do all the undead units lose their bonuses if Wanda is unconcious? I assume they definitely do if she is dead.
Given the previous comic I'd assume Wanda is dead as she was shooting towards the ground on purpose and then her mount got killed. But the mechanics of health aren't revealed as of yet. I was unsure if she cast that shield spell or it was already up. She wasn't shown casting anything to slow her fall... If she'd dead I'm pretty much done. She was by far the coolest character.

[Ragn Charran]

No wait; airspace borders tower, not courtyard. So there are only two ways someone from Ansom's side can get the pliers this turn: breach the walls and enter the courtyard or conquer the tower with fliers and then enter the courtyard through the tower. Coalition units can't move directly from airspace to courtyard, by my reading of klog 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0129.html)


...which means even with his carpet, Ansom can't grab the pliers or try to finish Wanda, since despite any remaining move he simply can't land by the rules laid out in the klog. Which means, unless the wall is breached this turn, Wanda and the Pliers are safe from enemy capture/destruction...

Therefore, everything hinges on whether Ansom can protect the siege without the pliers.

If he can't, then

- the walls stay up and the coalition has to end turn
- Wanda is recovered, gets to safety, and heals
- Maggie, Sizemore, and Wanda get their MP back
- Parson gets at least one new toy (pliers, plus anything that comes in his stupid meal)
- Stanley probably makes it home, providing some dwagons (and assuming survival of the fittest, the six that survived the ambush are going to be powerful) and a proven kickass combat warlord
- If Stanley comes home, so does Jack, also with full MP
- Parson gets whatever pops overnight

Meanwhile, the coalition gets

- Jillian and some gwiffons
- maybe a few vamps, if they can make it and Don King decides to send them. We know the bats can't as they only have limited move.

Because of all of this, Charlie joining the coalition again does not break the game. This turn Charlie can do very little, and if Stanley makes it home next turn Parson gets an equivalent power-up to counter the Archons. And that's assuming Charlie even is a long-term ally - it's likely he is (given that securing his personal desires out of coalition victory - the pliers, Parson, and Parson's toys - is likely the "unacceptable" terms), but knowing Charlie it may also only be a one-turn, save-Ansom's-boop-from-his-own-mistake contract.

[Ragn Charran]

In the beginning of the story, we were told that Parson wrote this as an unwinnable scenario simply between Gobwin Knob and the Jetstone invasion.

You're forgetting one key thing - Parson's game was unwinnable because, in the game, Parson controlled the coalition. In Erfworld, Ansom controls the coalition, and he is no Parson. As seen repeatedly - the Dwagon Donut of Doom (which, despite Jillian's intervention, still likely would have captured Ansom's head the next morning had the Tool not booped it up), the tunnel feint, etc - Parson has bested Ansom with ploys that, if he were DMing his game, he wouldn't have fallen for himself.

[SteveMB]

...which means even with his carpet, Ansom can't grab the pliers or try to finish Wanda, since despite any remaining move he simply can't land by the rules laid out in the klog.

Good point; the Klog entry indicates that the RCC needs to gain control of the walls before they can attack the courtyard. (At least, they need to breach the walls. Ansom's original plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html) was to just pound on all sides and pour through when they got a breach somewhere, though if the Klog is strictly accurate that must mean "pour through to gain full control of the outer walls and then move on to the courtyard" rather than "pour through to immediately attack the courtyard".)
Therefore, everything hinges on whether Ansom can protect the siege without the pliers.

GK has no air force at the moment, and a land sally would play to the RCC's strength and GK's weakness (sheer numbers). Even when Stanley gets back, he's down to a half-dozen dwagons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0128.html), which is about a third of what Parson used on his raids (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0052.html), against Ansom's full contingent of archery units. (OTOH, Stanley is presumably a better warlord than any of the uncroaked ones sent on the raids.)

I REALLY hope the writer is implying that Ansom only read one or two words of that (*$#$*#)$ contract.

It seemed clear to me that Ansom was scanning for, and being directed toward ("Scroll down.") the specific portion that was "amended". That could be a sentence or two giving Charlie something major (Parson? The Arkenpliers? Both?) but not quite bad enough for Ansom to reject under the circumstances.

[Godskook]

Do all the undead units lose their bonuses if Wanda is unconcious? I assume they definitely do if she is dead.

They only get her bonus if they're in her stack anyway, so it isn't really a current issue, since no uncroaked are in her stack anymore.

[OnDroid]

- Stanley probably makes it home, providing some dwagons (and assuming survival of the fittest, the six that survived the ambush are going to be powerful) and a proven kickass combat warlord
- If Stanley comes home, so does Jack, also with full MP

Because of all of this, Charlie joining the coalition again does not break the game. This turn Charlie can do very little, and if Stanley makes it home next turn Parson gets an equivalent power-up to counter the Archons. And that's assuming Charlie even is a long-term ally - it's likely he is (given that securing his personal desires out of coalition victory - the pliers, Parson, and Parson's toys - is likely the "unacceptable" terms), but knowing Charlie it may also only be a one-turn, save-Ansom's-boop-from-his-own-mistake contract.

Unfortunately the Archon said : "... to assist you until tomorrow" which suggests they allied with RCC. And in that case they can attack any units that enter GK airspace, such as the Tool, Jack and the remaining ( 6 has been shown the last time they appeared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0128.html) ) dragons (and at least 1 Knight). Don't know the chances against 30+ Archons. :smallconfused:

[DarkNewton]

Counter to what seems to be the popular opinion in this thread, I think the base of this whole comic sits rather well actually. I mean she was sent on a retrieval mission to grab both the pliers, and as a secondary objective, capture Ansom. So to that end Parson chatted with Charlie to avoid losing WAF by Charlescomm forces, which he accomplished by baiting charlie. There was always the question of how to get the flyers back into base once they were on the walls, as Charlie would obviously hit WAF if they returned with either objective, so for the storyline's sake they'd have to ground capture, and walk back.. This strip stops Ansom from being duced, RCC folding, and Charlie just having to pick up where the RCC left off, also answers the questions about the return trip by removing her flyers. Also as was pointed out, this also destroys her current weapon, and as such forces her into the situation of having to use the artifact, rather then just retrieve it. Had she not been put into this situation she'd have to come up with a valid reason for her to play with it, and potentially attune to it. Had she not had the chance to actually use it in combat/tinker with it, it'd have gone back to parson/Stanley and become either Stanley's new tinkertoy, or Parson's bargining chip.

So, in my opinion, it's this strip more then anything else that indicates, we're going to see some Wanda+Arkenpliers action here very soon, that will make her all the more valuable/perm player.

[Asplode]

Huh, where did you get the idea that Charlie is such a major player? Charlescomm forces present have only enough power to take a weak GK without dwagons. The coalition had 4 times the power to take GK when GK still had the dwagons. And that was because of the walls. In open field the advantage was 12:1 for RCC, The coalition is many times stronger than Charlie.

More than 30 archons against 4 uncroaked fliers, that wasn't much of a fight.I get the impression that Charlie is such a major player by the way he just turned this engagement 180 degrees, leveraged Ansom by way of a binding contract (the details of which we don't know for sure), and is probably going to get away with it all.

Not going to even bother arguing numbers (and superfluous abbreviation) because my entire statement is based on story, and what's been shown to us. I take back the Deux Ex Machina statement since the story's hardly concluding, but peer a little closer: He's thus far been nearly untouchable, save for Wanda's little thermonuclear event in the castle airspace, but well how often can she pull that off?

Charlie's own base of operations is shown to be in some remote location that is presumably inaccessible, and his archons fly, communicate, and destroy things at whim remotely.
Everyone else is tethered to the world in some tangible way, hence Charlie's "looming" feeling of omnipresence.
This allows him to whimsically intervene on this engagement, serving and backstabbing both sides while being immune to any consequences of his actions, save for losing a few archons (death toll so far is 1 archon, right?)

Not trying to be a 'forum warrior' here, I've deliberately avoiding posting this long for that very reason, but it was the first time I felt I needed to cry foul on behalf of Parson and Ansom. This is their fight, but Charlie is casually sniping away at them from out of arm's reach and it's eroding away at what was turning into an entertaining drama.

On the flip-side, I can see that it appears as though it's all used to set up a probable merging of arkenpliers and Wanda, though I feel it could have been done more believably.

The time-scaling thing can slide since everyone does it, as far as I'm concerned. If nothing else it's easy to go back and reinterpret Wanda's distance from Ansom to be something more satisfactory; it's really a minor detail.

Once again this is my personal opinion as a casual reader.

[koima]

Looks like The Tool was right when he said Ansom was bringing the pliers to him.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0032.html

Also, the archons can attack anything in the airspace surrounding Gobwin Knob including Wanda who was below the walls but still not touching the ground.

[ViciousMink]

Considering it's a magical contract, it wouldn't surprise me if 'the rules of the game' i.e. the world-laws, so to speak, allow for time to 'slow down' while considering an alliance or such... since in real life, a game such as Risk would pause while one player is considering another's offer of alliance or other trade.

Regarding Charlie... I get the feeling that he's an altogether different beast than Ansom, Jillian, Vito, et al. If anything, he strikes me as perhaps how Parson would be after a few years of being in Erfworld....

[Tweed]

All I know is that I am sick to death of Parson's plans getting consistently ruined by sheer dumb luck and brashness on Ansom's part. I have been following this strip religiously since it first came out, what, two years ago? Three? I would really appreciate it if there was eventually some resolution to this plot. That, or show me that this comic isn't just about how fabulous Charlie and his Angels are. :smallmad:

[ravege]

Parson and/or the pliers seem just a bit too easy and convenient for Charlie, see Maggie's comments a few comics earlier about no one knowing what Charlie wants. We don't have much more to go on for possible contract amendments, but there are two, probably unrelated and probably unimportant tidbits we do have: 1) Ansom is sensitive about the subject of royalty 2) Charlie isn't royal. Could Charlie's amended cost include the Royal Coalition bestowing royalty on Charlie? King Charles sounds nice :smallsmile:

[Chocowatte]

Hmm...

I am curious if a battered Wanda will be having an "I have the Power" moment with the pliers soon...

Complete with the shimmering arrival of a shiny new outfit to replace the chunks of her old one and the Lord of the Rings sonic boom of released power. (Hopefully she won't turn into a pulsating blond as well...)

POWERUP Complete! :smallcool:

~Chocowatte

[headhoncho]

All I know is that I am sick to death of Parson's plans getting consistently ruined by sheer dumb luck and brashness on Ansom's part. I have been following this strip religiously since it first came out, what, two years ago? Three? I would really appreciate it if there was eventually some resolution to this plot. That, or show me that this comic isn't just about how fabulous Charlie and his Angels are. :smallmad:

Relax, the story isn't over yet, we're experiencing it real-time rather than in completed form. I bet it would seem perfectly well-paced as a part of a finished work.

That said, I am already really tired of uber-Charlie, especially in contrast to how lame the dwagons have been portrayed thus far. Charlie's lost one, count 'em, one archon, while Stanley's lost the vast majority of his supposedly awesome dwagons.

Ho-hum.

[Bawon von Howse]

so, as pointed out by an Archon, they cannot do anything until tomorrow. However, as Charlie has just allied with the RCC, I can only presume that they miss thier own independant turn, which would come before Parson's!

As, the Luckamancy charms box stated, the spell is now complete, so we cannot expect Parson to get anything special for breakfast on his following turn, however it would appear apparrant to me that GK's turn will come before the Archon's can do anything again!

So, the forthcoming events all depend on whether the RCC can breach the wall this turn.

If they can breach the wall, then the fight is taken to the garrison and we will have a conclusion to the fihgt. I cannot see a way that Ansom will end the turn having breached the walls without taking the garrison and either win or die trying.

If they cannot breach the walls then they cannot take the Garrison via the courtyard and time is bought for Parson / GK.

To me, it all looks like it's building up to a titanic showdown...the Tool arrives back tomorrow, Parson's danger from the tunnels has passed, Jillian can arrive back, plus the Charlie gets to attack in turn...

...I would see the RCC ending turn before the walls are breached, Jillian arrives back on Transylvito turn, the Tool arrives back (slipping passed the Archons in a viel), Parson deals some serious damage to the RCC, then the climax of the fight comes on the RCCs next turn when the archon ansom & co penetrate the garrison but cannot win in the dungeon!!!

[eilandesq]

Hmmm:

--Ansom is now in the ground zone, surrounded by uncroaked and having lost his artifact combat bonus;

--Wanda is now in the ground zone, probably not dead;

--Uncroaked get a massive combat bonus when led by a Croakamancer;

--Wanda is within a few feet of an Arkentool that is usable in combat, which should more than make up for the loss of her staff and helmet.

Does the phrase, "Out of the frying pan and into the fire" ring a bell for Ansom? :smallbiggrin:

[Aquillion]

Relax, the story isn't over yet, we're experiencing it real-time rather than in completed form. I bet it would seem perfectly well-paced as a part of a finished work.In fact, if this were the published version, we'd still be in the first chapter -- we could likely read the whole siege of Gobwin Knob in an afternoon, with all its twists and turns.

It's clear the comic is being scripted with that final version in mind.

[Devoured_Dude]

All I know is that I am sick to death of Parson's plans getting consistently ruined by sheer dumb luck and brashness on Ansom's part. I have been following this strip religiously since it first came out, what, two years ago? Three? I would really appreciate it if there was eventually some resolution to this plot. That, or show me that this comic isn't just about how fabulous Charlie and his Angels are. :smallmad:

I actually find it quite interesting. If we think of Parson being on the side of the bad guys and Ansom as the hero, the undoing of Parson's brilliant schemes is perfectly in line with the comic book/cheap fantasy genre. It's like reading a Superman or Justice League comic from Lex Luthor's point of view.

[Whispri]

I actually find it quite interesting. If we think of Parson being on the side of the bad guys and Ansom as the hero, the undoing of Parson's brilliant schemes is perfectly in line with the comic book/cheap fantasy genre. It's like reading a Superman or Justice League comic from Lex Luthor's point of view.
Ansom was going to sack Gobwin's Knob after it had been rendered neutral and thus harmless, he's a brigand and a monster. Not to mention the whole unprovoked War of Aggression against Stanley thing he's got going. And even if Stanley is as scummy as his sworn enemies make him out to be, he left! And Ansom knew it.

[SteveMB]

Ansom was going to sack Gobwin's Knob after it had been rendered neutral and thus harmless, he's a brigand and a monster. Not to mention the whole unprovoked War of Aggression against Stanley thing he's got going. And even if Stanley is as scummy as his sworn enemies make him out to be, he left! And Ansom knew it.

One of my favorite things about this story is that it avoids both the simplistic "good versus evil" stereotype and the equally simplistic (with pretensions of sophistication) "everybody is more or less the same shade of gray" stereotype.

[Aquillion]

I just realized something else interesting in this page:

Wanda seems to have fallen between castle zones (from airspace to courtyard.) Since she's a defender it's not a big deal -- but what about Ansom? If he was flying over the courtyard when his carpet was taken, would he fall into it, even though he couldn't legally move down there until the wall or tower falls?

Even worse, what if it wasn't his turn? As an attacker, he can't move between city zones when it's not his turn -- so what would happen? Would he hit the invisible glass 'bottom' of airspace with a thud and hang in the air without reaching the courtyard? Would he be allowed to fall from one zone to another off-turn and in contravention of the rules defining the order in which they have to be taken, as an exception to the rules limiting movement?

[drachefly]

This war is anything but unprovoked, for everyone but the leaders. That's odd, but there are reasons everyone is there.

As for rays hitting Wanda at low angles... The lower two rays may be reflections from her shield. As for the other nearly horizontal rays, look at the zoomed-out view in panel 7. Wanda is being hit by archons all the way over near the tower.

Also, eilandesq, as I see it, Ansom is on the top of the wall, not in the courtyard with Wanda. But yeah, either way, he is totally surrounded.

[SteveMB]

Even worse, what if it wasn't his turn? As an attacker, he can't move between city zones when it's not his turn -- so what would happen? Would he hit the 'bottom' of airspace with a thud and hang in the air without reaching the courtyard? Is that an exception to the rules limiting movement?

I can think of four possibilities:

1. Involuntarily falling into a zone where you can't legally move is an exception to the normal rules. You take falling damage, but you get somewhere you otherwise couldn't (sploit!).

2. Erfworld physics would prevent you from falling in a way that would be illegal as a move -- you'd be stuck in midair, or somehow fall somewhere where it's legal to move.

3. Erfworld physics makes it simply impossible to knock down a flyer if the fall would be an illegal move.

4. Falling into a zone where you can't legally move is an auto-croak, no matter how much or little falling damage you'd normally take, making the illegality of it a bit moot. :smalleek:

[Aquillion]

Another thought: This might actually be part of a Xanatos Gambit by Parson. Think about it -- by re-allying with Ansom, Charlie has moved his own turn to after Gobwin Knob's. That means that Stanley (and Jack) might actually make it back next turn, before Charlie gets a chance to attack. If Charlie had not allied with Ansom, then he almost certainly would have wiped Parson out next turn; now it isn't so obvious.

And when Stanley does arrive, Parson can present him with the Arkenpliers, a huge number of dead units, and possibly Ansom dead or in a vulnerable position. Sure, this looks like a defeat for Parson... but when you think about it, Charlie is a bigger threat than the fractured and heavily-damaged coalition. Delaying Charlie's turn until Stanley can get back with Jack and the Dwagons is worth more than croaking Ansom.

Or, more simply:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2458/motivator8341244fz5.jpg

[SteveMB]

Another thought: This might actually be part of a Xanatos Gambit by Parson. Think about it -- by re-allying with Ansom, Charlie has moved his own turn to after Gobwin Knob's. That means that Stanley (and Jack) might actually make it back next turn, before Charlie gets a chance to attack.

Except that Parson has no real reason to believe that Stanley is coming back next turn, or ever. As far as he knows, his attempt to influence Jack in that direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0121.html) was a complete failure.

[Bawon von Howse]

Wanda seems to have fallen between castle zones (from airspace to courtyard.) Since she's a defender it's not a big deal -- but what about Ansom? If he was flying over the courtyard when his carpet was taken, would he fall into it, even though he couldn't legally move down there until the wall or tower falls?

surely due to hex/zone boundaries, Ansom could ONLY fly over the wall (he wasn't even in the airspace zone)...as Wanda was diving in the courtyard, it makes sense that she falls into that zone

[Lamech]

2. Erfworld physics would prevent you from falling in a way that would be illegal as a move -- you'd be stuck in midair, or somehow fall somewhere where it's legal to move.
Couldn't that mean Ansom shifted quite a bit to the wall from where he was knocked off? The arkenpliers could be a long ways away...



Also why does everyone asume Wanda is in the courtyard? Couldn't one possiblity be something like the "outer walls" is everything from the first wall, until the garrsion wall? Because it says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html) a second wall has to be breached to get in the courtyard...

To put in a visual format a possible map of the city zones I have is this:
W=Outer wall zone
(all empty space)=Airspace
T=tunnels
C=courtyard zone
D=Dungeon
T=Tower
?=The stuff right under the tower (no clue what this would count as)


WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAACAATAACAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAACAATAACAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WWWWWWWCCC??CCCWWWWWWWWW
TTTTTTTTTTTDDDDDDDTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTDDDDDDDTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTDDDTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT


EDIT:...and my key has two "T"'s in it erm... the T's above the W's ?'s and C's are the tower the ones below are Tunnels...

[Aquillion]

surely due to hex/zone boundaries, Ansom could ONLY fly over the wall (he wasn't even in the airspace zone)...as Wanda was diving in the courtyard, it makes sense that she falls into that zoneWe don't know for sure whether Ansom was technically in airspace or not, but it doesn't matter. Reaching the Airspace zone is plainly easy if you can fly (Charlie just waltzed in.) Ansom could be there if he wanted to, or you could just do something to one of the Archons that takes away their power of flight. The basic rules problem still holds -- it's plainly possible, from what we've been shown, for someone to be in the Airspace zone using a mount to fly directly over the courtyard (the Archons, described as present in airspace only, have been all over the place.) We've also been shown that you fall if your mount dies or is taken away. This leads to an open question as to what happens if your mount is lost when over an area where you couldn't legally land by choice.

Except that Parson has no real reason to believe that Stanley is coming back next turn, or ever. As far as he knows, his attempt to influence Jack in that direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0121.html) was a complete failure.
Sure, but he could still be banking on the possibility that Jack might recover and remember his orders, absent anything better to rely on. There's not much other air power capable of challenging Charlie to be had, so what else can he do?

The only other thing that comes to mind is to play the coalition off of Charlie somehow; but we haven't seen that recently. Basically, Parson might be assuming that Stanley is coming back, because if he isn't there's no viable options against Charlie anyway.

Parson's attitude towards Charlie so far as we've seen has just been to buy more time. If he's not buying time in the hope that Stanley will come back, what is he buying time for? Even if we assume that Gobwin Knob can produce units in a reasonable timescale on its own while sieged, I seriously doubt it can produce anything that could make a difference against that many Archons. The Arkenpliers might have some deus ex mechania, but that is even less reliable than Stanley, and again, what says it'd be enough to instantly help against so many Archons?

Also, note Parson's speech here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html). He expected Charlie to make a grab for the Arkenpliers. He devotes much more time to talking about Charlie than to talking about Ansom. It really does come across as if this whole thing is actually being done to deal with Charlie, one way or another, not with Ansom.

[Faultline]

Couldn't that mean Ansom shifted quite a bit to the wall from where he was knocked off? The arkenpliers could be a long ways away...



Also why does everyone asume Wanda is in the courtyard? Couldn't one possiblity be something like the "outer walls" is everything from the first wall, until the garrsion wall? Because it says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html) a second wall has to be breached to get in the courtyard...

To put in a visual format a possible map of the city zones I have is this:



WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAACAATAACAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WAAAAAAAAACAATAACAAAAAAAAAAAAW
WWWWWWWCCC??CCCWWWWWWWWW
TTTTTTTTTTTDDDDDDDTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTDDDDDDDTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTDDDTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT


EDIT:...and my key has two "T"'s in it erm... the T's above the W's ?'s and C's are the tower the ones below are Tunnels...

That's the castle from Nethack, isn't it?

[dr pepper]

I have to say that the whole recital of the mission statement made me grind my teeth because it seems that every company I've worked for uses a similar outline...

But it's such a content free statement, i wonder if the authors used the Dilbert random mission statement creator.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Interesting that on Page 119 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html) Parson tells Charlie that Charlie wants the fliers to succeed and then Charlie makes a deal. I don't see how it COULD be just about the Arkenpliers.

Also on Page 105 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0117.html) Charlie says he'll tell Ansom he'll just sit there to assist if necessary.

[Aquillion]

Interesting that on Page 119 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0132.html) Parson tells Charlie that Charlie wants the fliers to succeed and then Charlie makes a deal. I don't see how it COULD be just about the Arkenpliers.

Also on Page 105 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0117.html) Charlie says he'll tell Ansom he'll just sit there to assist if necessary.
Charlie specifically doesn't make a deal. He says "Ansom has given me no incentive to stop you", a situation that, obviously, just changed. (That statement could even be seen as subtly warning Parson -- after all, the implication is that Charlie would step in as soon as he's given a proper incentive.)

Likewise, page 105 is him saying he's there to assist if Ansom thinks it's necessary. Ansom just decided that it is.

[Lombard]

Maybe the pliers give the power to kill Archons on touch once they're attuned. :)

[Devoured_Dude]

Ansom was going to sack Gobwin's Knob after it had been rendered neutral and thus harmless, he's a brigand and a monster. Not to mention the whole unprovoked War of Aggression against Stanley thing he's got going. And even if Stanley is as scummy as his sworn enemies make him out to be, he left! And Ansom knew it.

Poor Gobwin Knob, innocently packed with uncroaked and gobwins and giant spidews. Harmless indeed. Jillian said Ansom would redecorate with radishes, some monster! And if the murder of King Saline IV is not sufficient provocation for war, maybe Ansom should have waited longer for the sanctions to work?:smallwink:

[Prince_Rohan]

But that's one of the things that separates a real soldier from an armchair strategist.

Real soldiers know that the plan always goes to pieces, but are expert at turning things from a goofup to success through improvisation, daring, and an absolute refusal to give up.

Ansom is only a competent tactician, but he has the qualities above in spades.

If Parson wants to survive these next few turns, he's going to have to come up with some of that, too.

I choked on this one, so I'm not going to swallow it. Let's review Ansoms record...

1) Out thought/out fought in the tunnels
2) Played too conservative in his siege attack
3) Tried to play the hero and put himself in a bad situation and needed Charlie to bail him out at an "outragous" cost.

If Ansom is a competent tactician, then the failed US bankers are financial geniuses, the big three automakers are fantastic captains of industry, and I'm a chinese jet pilot.

The only thing Ansom really has in spades is ego. Competent people do not require bail outs, only spoiled losers do.

[Whispri]

Poor Gobwin Knob, innocently packed with uncroaked and gobwins and giant spidews. Harmless indeed. Jillian said Ansom would redecorate with radishes, some monster! And if the murder of King Saline IV is not sufficient provocation for war, maybe Ansom should have waited longer for the sanctions to work?:smallwink:
Yes, harmless (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0110.html). Frozen in time, unable to take any action unless attacked. At that point there would be no need for further loss of life. And yet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0113.html) Ansom was planning to assault them anyway. There's no positive spin you can put on that.

Radishes have no bearing on Alignment.

As for Saline, his killers were defeated by his chosen heir, who that was is no business of Ansom. Not his side. Not his King. Not grounds for war in Vinnie's book.

[pendell]

I choked on this one, so I'm not going to swallow it. Let's review Ansoms record...

1) Out thought/out fought in the tunnels
2) Played too conservative in his siege attack
3) Tried to play the hero and put himself in a bad situation and needed Charlie to bail him out at an "outragous" cost.



To which let us add:

4) Fought his way out of the 'party platter', turning a near-impossible death trap into a victory for his side.

5) Has successfully led the Radish coalition to victory after victory over Stanley's forces, reducing him to one last city from several and forcing a gotterdammerung.

Your points above is why I called Ansom a 'competent', rather than a 'brilliant' or 'exceptional', tactician.

He *has* forged together a powerful army, held it together, and been able to leverage his material superiority to victory so far. That puts him on a par with Grant in the US Civil War, who was unable to defeat Lee in battle but nonetheless was able to capitalize on his overwhelming material advantage.

He's not 'brilliant', in the sense of being able to take on 25-1 odds with any hope of winning, unlike Parson. He's also not incompetent, as is Lord Stanley. He's 'workmanlike'. And when you have a 25-1 material advantage, that perhaps is all that's necessary.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

Radishes have no bearing on Alignment.


QFT. Hasn't anyone else noted that Charlie has angelic minions, while being an amoral mercenary who plays both sides for his own advantage?


Appearances are deceiving. It's clear that the clean, shiny, pretty side with angels aren't
"good" guys. Likewise, the presence of ugly units or 'traditionally evil' units on Stanley's
side does not automatically make him evil.

Doesn't mean he's good either. But it does mean we have to look past the surface impressions. And judge on the actions of the sides, not their appearances.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Stam]

Something that I haven't seen posted here yet...

Um. Charlie just got an outrageous contract out of Ansom...without actually being able to render significant aid to him this round. Yes, that emphasis is there for a reason.

They blew up the WAF and decked Wanda, yes. But Ansom is now in the Gobwin Knob courtyard, with a basic weapon instead of his undead-croaking pliers.

I predict that he's going to get swarmed under, with Charlie standing by shrugging his shoulders and saying, "Unfortunately, we couldn't cross zones to help him more. My fee, please."

Winner? Clearly, Charlie.

[fractal]

Something that I haven't seen posted here yet...

Um. Charlie just got an outrageous contract out of Ansom...without actually being able to render significant aid to him this round. Yes, that emphasis is there for a reason.

They blew up the WAF and decked Wanda, yes. But Ansom is now in the Gobwin Knob courtyard, with a basic weapon instead of his undead-croaking pliers.

I predict that he's going to get swarmed under, with Charlie standing by shrugging his shoulders and saying, "Unfortunately, we couldn't cross zones to help him more. My fee, please."

Winner? Clearly, Charlie.
Well, Charlie did presumably win on that (thanks to a great bargaining position). But I think it's safe to assume that Ansom also got something out of the deal. He agreed for a reason. Note that he fell back onto the Wall (which is why he's surrounded by Uncroaked units). Furthermore, he has asked the Archons to bring him his carpet. Once he has that, he can withdraw back to his army when his health gets low.

[SteveMB]

Once he has that, he can withdraw back to his army when his health gets low.

If the Coalition doesn't get a wall breach this turn, "withdraw back to his army" is going to look very much like "slink back with his tail between his legs" to his allies, especially since he had to make some kind of "outrageous" concession to Charlie to save his bacon.

[SteveD]

Something that I haven't seen posted here yet...

Um. Charlie just got an outrageous contract out of Ansom...without actually being able to render significant aid to him this round. Yes, that emphasis is there for a reason.

They blew up the WAF and decked Wanda, yes. But Ansom is now in the Gobwin Knob courtyard, with a basic weapon instead of his undead-croaking pliers.

I predict that he's going to get swarmed under, with Charlie standing by shrugging his shoulders and saying, "Unfortunately, we couldn't cross zones to help him more. My fee, please."

Winner? Clearly, Charlie.

No, Ansom has his carpet back. He'll count as a flyer if in the courtyard or on the battlements.

Next round will be single combat between Wanda and Ansom, Ansom without his pliers and Wanda without her escort/staff. We don't know if Parson has anything to assist, but he did state previously the only thing he could send against Ansom was the airforce.

The winner gets the pliers, but if Stanley plus dwagons is going to assist, he still needs to break through the Archons.

[BillyJimBoBob]

If all units can be given warlord status why not have every single unit be a warlord then. Warlord gives basic leadership bonus while probably also counting into the stack bonus this also gives you control over every single battle. If all units can be warlord there is no reason NOT to have all units being warlord or at least have all stacks with a warlord and yet RC sent warlordless stacks to fight dragons, stanley had a warlordless spidew group, the dragons were warlordless when they grabbed Jillian.All units are not made warlords for one reason expressed in two ways: Smuckers cost to promote them, and upkeep cost per turn. It is simply not economically feasible to have all of your units be made into warlords, and there is also some evidence that the effectiveness of a warlord is impacted by their base unit type. Making the weakest kind of infantry into a warlord would be a poor allocation of resources, which is supported by the constant failures of Tool's "pretty boys" prior to the summoning of Parson.

...which means even with his carpet, Ansom can't grab the pliers or try to finish Wanda, since despite any remaining move he simply can't land by the rules laid out in the klog. Which means, unless the wall is breached this turn, Wanda and the Pliers are safe from enemy capture/destruction...Ansom wants the carpet not to try to recover the Arkenpliers or to croak Wanda. He wants the carpet for simple survival. He was expected to die "at any moment" by experienced warlords/high level troops when he had the Pliers and the carpet. Now he is in the exact same position, engaged by a zerg of the weakest sort of uncroaked unit, but without the advantages of flight and uncroaked-dusting Pliers. He needs the carpet to live through the next turn, if not to survive this turn.

It seemed clear to me that Ansom was scanning for, and being directed toward ("Scroll down.") the specific portion that was "amended". That could be a sentence or two giving Charlie something major (Parson? The Arkenpliers? Both?) but not quite bad enough for Ansom to reject under the circumstances.This was my take also. Ansom was familiar with the prior contract. He chose not to accept it previously based on the cost, but in duress it started to seem like a much better idea. :smallbiggrin: All he wanted was a few seconds to scan the amendments, which he found outrageous but better than death.

They only get her bonus if they're in her stack anyway, so it isn't really a current issue, since no uncroaked are in her stack anymore.I don't think the limit is to her stack. "Led by" is the terms the Klog used, and a stack is said to be limited by mechanical advantage to 8 units. Sizemore "led" far more than 8 units in the tunnel battle, and the unstated implication was that his bonus to golems was applied to all of them.

Poor Gobwin Knob, innocently packed with uncroaked and gobwins and giant spidews. Harmless indeed. Jillian said Ansom would redecorate with radishes, some monster! And if the murder of King Saline IV is not sufficient provocation for war, maybe Ansom should have waited longer for the sanctions to work?:smallwink:That could not be the reason for the war. Stanley did not off Saline. We don't know who did, other than that Sizemore thought it very odd that the Gobwins turned like they did. But the rule of Duty precludes any suspicion of Stanley, since as Warlord or Chief Warlord (I'm unclear of the distinction between these two) he "can't conspire against the ruler." That being the case, the RCC can not be at war with Stanley over the death of Saline IV. I suspect that Stanley's "quest" for the Arkentools is the underlying reason for the hostilities.

In the beginning of the story, we were told that Parson wrote this as an unwinnable scenario simply between Gobwin Knob and the Jetstone invasion.Not quite. It was an unwinnable scenario between Gobwin Knob and the RCC. Charlescomm was a part of the RCC.

Now we have Superforce Charlie interjected into everything to make it even more unwinnable? It's become the all-Charlie show with Parson the minor character unable to do anything. It seems the ultimate warlord is Charlie, not Parson.Agreed, Charlie is not being portrayed in a way in which he can be seen as being anything other than a Deus ex machina. He has a large number of potent flying, casting, very fast moving (time between the "How many _more_ Archons would it take" to their arrival was not long at all) units; the Arkendish and the potent magics it brings; the ability to hack into what were presumed by other potent casters to be private magical communications devices; the ability to craft and offer up magically binding contracts; and everyone wants and/or needs his services. He changes the status quo simply by raising his prices or by ending or entering into a new contract. The potential of his Archon forces can not be underestimated. Just as Jillian was performing reconnaissance in force and Parson used the Dwagons hit and run tactics to huge strategic advantage (few or no lost Dwagons, and 40% of the siege destroyed is huge), the Archons could be used. And he has nor been shown to have any weaknesses or limitations other than others being generally wary or distrusting of his motives. It's really just too much.

I have previously assumed that Charlies limitations were a small number of units to counter their high level of potency, and a small number (or one) city, making for a small economic base with which to build and maintain those forces. This would make him a small target for other kingdoms, as you'd only get a few (or one) city by attacking him while you'd be facing both city defenses and a pile of Archons. Balancing this Charlie would need to keep Archons at home on defense, and would not be able to take and hold other kingdoms cities and then reinforce them with cheap units bolstered by city walls.

But we've seen him demand and get huge sums for just three units and a few spells cast. If you can bring in income by farming out a small number of units, then you do have the ability to more easily go on the offensive and pick up other cities. If everyone wants your services and fears your powers, you can easily make an alliance with a few weak kingdoms and overthrow a strong one. With fast moving and potent units you can pick your battles and eliminate threats before they are realized. And then you're left with a few weak kingdoms to mop up at your leisure.

Simply put, Charlie as he stands, as he has been presented to the readers, ruins the story. If he isn't attacked by some other kingdom while his huge force of Archons is away forcing him to withdraw, or some other logically presented turnabout of his fortunes, then there is no way this plot can hope to keep the interest of a reader who wants a story with drama over Deus ex machina.

edit: cleaned up some poor phrasing and a typo.

[fendrin]

All units are not made warlords for one reason expressed in two ways: Smuckers cost to promote them, and upkeep cost per turn. It is simply not economically feasible to have all of your units be made into warlords, and there is also some evidence that the effectiveness of a warlord is impacted by their base unit type. Making the weakest kind of infantry into a warlord would be a poor allocation of resources, which is supported by the constant failures of Tool's "pretty boys" prior to the summoning of Parson. I would say that the "pretty boys" are units with some sort of indication that they would have a high leadership score (perhaps there is a spell to identify that). However, while leadership has a mechanical advantage, a strategic genius is better.

Not quite. It was an unwinnable scenario between Gobwin Knob and the RCC. Charlescomm was a part of the RCC. RCC vs. GK is "a little like" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0031.html) the game that Parson was developing, but it is not the same. Given Parson's proclivity for playing the bad guys, he was probably going to be running GK and his players likely would have each played a side in the RCC. Charlie may or may not have existed in that game, but if he did it would have been as an NPC.

Simply put, Charlie as he stands, as he has been presented to the readers, ruins the story. If he isn't attacked by some other kingdom while his huge force of Archons is away forcing him to withdraw, or some other logically presented turnabout of his fortunes, then there is no way this plot can hope to keep the interest of a reader who wants a story with drama over Deus ex machina.I disagree. If it weren't for Charlie, the story would be over by now, and boringly. Charlie is the wildcard that has kept Parson from pwning Ansom time and time again.

Why don't other sides wipe out Charlie? The same reason the various warring factions in Italy didn't wipe out the Condottieri: their usefulness outweighed their riskiness.

[innovan]

If it weren't for Charlie, the story would be over by now.

Exactly! The comic was originally intended to run 100-120 pages. They're now at page 134, and other originally planned major characters like the Tool can barely find a panel anymore.

Charlie has been a problem from the get go. The character was introduced far too late in the story. He's been a violation of Chekhov's writing rules for holding your audience's attention from his introduction.

And now the entire plot revolves around Charlie-Charlie-Charlie, it's all friggin Charlie. Parson's character development? His increase in skills? The artifacts and tools he's gained? The relationships and trust he's built? All insignificant compared to the power of the uber-Archons and which side Charlie chooses to place them on.

I'd love to see a giant foot come down from the sky, Monty Python style, and stomp on Charlie's fortress, eliminating it from the plot, deus ex machina style.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5767/charliesplatcj4.gif

[fractal]

The potential of his Archon forces can not be underestimated. Just as Jillian was performing reconnaissance in force and Parson used the Dwagons hit and run tactics to huge strategic advantage (few or no lost Dwagons, and 40% of the siege destroyed is huge), the Archons could be used. And he has nor been shown to have any weaknesses or limitations other than others being generally wary or distrusting of his motives. It's really just too much.

I have previously assumed that Charlies limitations were a small number of units to counter their high level of potency, and a small number (or one) city, making for a small economic base with which to build and maintain those forces. This would make him a small target for other kingdoms, as you'd only get a few (or one) city by attacking him while you'd be facing both city defenses and a pile of Archons. Balancing this Charlie would need to keep Archons at home on defense, and would not be able to take and hold other kingdoms cities and then reinforce them with cheap units bolstered by city walls.
Oh, Charlie is absolutely strong. However, we don't really know that an Archon (in the absence of substantial Warlord bonuses) is any tougher than a dwagon, and even when down to his last city, Stanley had more dwagons than this (and substantial ground forces and casters as well). I think we can assume that this is the bulk of Charlie's forces; if he lost these Archons, he'd be in really bad shape.

So yes, Charlie is scary, and much more effective than FAQ doing about the same thing. However, I don't think he's tougher than any other major power, and certainly much weaker than Stanley at his height (before he faced off against a coalition of several kingdoms that also used superior tactics). The main thing is that Charlie provides a type of unit the Coalition was previously short on (fliers), which happens to be particularly important for its flexibility at coping with Parson's surprise moves.

[BillyJimBoBob]

I disagree. If it weren't for Charlie, the story would be over by now, and boringly. Charlie is the wildcard that has kept Parson from pwning Ansom time and time again.I have to wonder why the side with the 25-to-1 advantage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html) needs a "wildcard" to keep from losing horribly?

Charlie should be the wildcard which allows Parson to win, at best. But that would rob Parson of much of the anticipated tactical and strategic genius he is touted as having. Charlie is, in fact, completely unnecessary to this chapter of the story. If the intent was to introduce him for further development in future chapters, things went horribly wrong.

Edit: Heh, necessary and unnecessary have opposite meanings!

[Godskook]

Why do people keep saying that Ansom is in the courtyard? Last I checked(134, page 121), he was on the wall far as I could tell.

I don't think the limit is to her stack. "Led by" is the terms the Klog used, and a stack is said to be limited by mechanical advantage to 8 units. Sizemore "led" far more than 8 units in the tunnel battle, and the unstated implication was that his bonus to golems was applied to all of them.
Relevant Klog material:

"This started with talking to Sizemore. He told me that Casters are Commanders, and can lead stacks, but they almost never do. Casters are too rare and valuable to risk, and they give no leadership bonus to the stack anyway. Only Warlords have leadership.

Makes sense. Except for certain exceptions. Like say...the bonus to those golems if they're led by a Dirtamancer. Or the huge one to Uncroaked units being led by a Croakamancer(!)....."

In context, it reads as if the Dirtamancer bonus is an exception to otherwise general rule that only Warlords give a leadership bonus to the stack they lead. Since leading is only used in the context of leading a stack, the most straightforward interpretation is that the exception is to casters giving a bonus to the stack they lead. Note how the chief warlord bonus(the only bonus I know to be wider than a stack) is never refered to as 'leading'. That bonus is hex-wide, and doesn't care who is 'leading' the stack, since it can apply to stacks led by other Warlords.

[Prince_Rohan]

To which let us add:

4) Fought his way out of the 'party platter', turning a near-impossible death trap into a victory for his side.

5) Has successfully led the Radish coalition to victory after victory over Stanley's forces, reducing him to one last city from several and forcing a gotterdammerung.

Your points above is why I called Ansom a 'competent', rather than a 'brilliant' or 'exceptional', tactician.

He *has* forged together a powerful army, held it together, and been able to leverage his material superiority to victory so far. That puts him on a par with Grant in the US Civil War, who was unable to defeat Lee in battle but nonetheless was able to capitalize on his overwhelming material advantage.

He's not 'brilliant', in the sense of being able to take on 25-1 odds with any hope of winning, unlike Parson. He's also not incompetent, as is Lord Stanley. He's 'workmanlike'. And when you have a 25-1 material advantage, that perhaps is all that's necessary.


All the facts are exactly as you say, but we should look at his opponent - Lord Stanley. All the successes you mention were up against, well, a complete Tool. When someone is as foolish and prone to be an arse as Stanley it's not hard to have a winning record. If Stanley the Tool was a college football team you would schedule to play them on Homecoming.

Ansom v. Parson has been a different story, and his latest move saved one person - himself. As any bail out, it's just ignorance and arrogance following incompetence.

You are only as good as the stone you are honed against, and Ansom looks like a blunt instrument. Now that the Jetstone Prince is up against a real strategist like Parson, he is pwned. My argument would be that Ansom is no Grant because Stanley the Tool is no Lee.

[Faultline]

No, Ansom has his carpet back. He'll count as a flyer if in the courtyard or on the battlements.

Next round will be single combat between Wanda and Ansom, Ansom without his pliers and Wanda without her escort/staff.

No. Ansom as a flier is in airspace zone; he can only attack tower. Wanda is in the courtyard.

Ansom on the walls can only attack courtyard after he kills all the uncroaked on the wall (or whatever the definition of "total control" is) AND his siege units get a breach.

Even if Wanda were croaked, Parson can get the pliers next round, unmolested by any coalition forces. He can even go get them himself.

[DevilDan]

Wanda's staff is broken. It seems it was the thing which protected her from the archon attack. It was a relatively small fall, so she's probably alive but out from the battle for the rest of the turn. So no huge bonus to the uncroaked this turn.

We don't know if her presence in the hex is all that's needed, though for all we know her bonus only applies to her stack (not what is implied, but we just don't know).

Wanda didn't get disinitegrated along with the other uncroaked fliers, so i guess that's a pretty good hint she's alive.

Misty left a corpse...

However, I'm consistently needing to point out that just because something occurs in one panel (particularly the last panel in a page) it doesn't mean that that scene remains the same even a femtosecond later.

Ha! Charlie. What a rat. Playing both sides against the middle.

Considering Ansom can wade through Uncroaked like they weren't even there, and the Uncroaked on the wall are going to be even weaker without Wanda's (presumably high) Croakamancer bonus, and ...

Charlie is a mercenary, and he didn't even promise Parson anything, just gave him a turn. Ansom is wounded and no longer has the 'pliers.

We've seen two named characters die again. RIP Webinar and Jaclyn.

And Dora and Manpower and probably others I can't think of.

I'm just speculating, but the lingo of the Archons is starting to sound something more like a dance bonus of sorts.

Charlie's an idiot for doing anything up front before checking the enforceability of the contract with Ansom's org. He's going to find his contract isn't worth spit.

Or perhaps, since he hasn't shown any signs of being an idiot, he is asking Prince Ansom, Heir and Chief Warlord of Spacerock, to sign something on which he can deliver. I wouldn't go to far in drawing parallels between modern corporate structures and a magical semi-feudal system.

If the contract is so ridiculous as to make it impossible for Ansom to deliver on it, why even bother pointing out the amendments to it?

Honestly the only way I can see Parson winning right now is if he captures/kills Ansom before the alliance's next turn. The pliers will be powerful if they can be attuned, but I don't see how they negate being attacked by an Archon force powerful enough alone to take out Gobwin Knob on top of the Jetstone force outside of their walls.

Parson may be able to hold as long as Ansom can't weaken the wall defenses as substantially as he did before.

As long as he's just a mercenary businessman, "eccentricities" like a constantly switching sides and changing his contracts at the last minute are tolerated. If people start to see him as an actual country, they might get pissed off about his seeming lack of honor, or start wondering if he's noble born or not. And that would be bad for him.

He never switched sides as he never fought for GK. They don't assume that he has much "honor" seeing as he's a mercenary, but they assume that he won't fail to deliver on a contract as signed. He's free to change it before it's been signed, on the other hand, which would be legit even if not to a noble's or royal's definition of "honorable."

I think the lorem ipsum was put specifically there so that we don't go all go into a nitpicking berserker rage over it.

Wanda seems to have fallen between castle zones (from airspace to courtyard.) Since she's a defender it's not a big deal -- but what about Ansom? If he was flying over the courtyard when his carpet was taken, would he fall into it, even though he couldn't legally move down there until the wall or tower falls?

He would appear to have fallen onto a different section of the wall. Also, we don't know that Ansom doesn't have plenty of move left over, so he could theoretically have fallen into the courtyard (if that's where he is) without breaking a movement rule. He had stayed on the wall because he needed to make a weak spot for the RCC siege to target.

Except that Parson has no real reason to believe that Stanley is coming back next turn, or ever. As far as he knows, his attempt to influence Jack in that direction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0121.html) was a complete failure.

But we don't know that he didn't try to reach Jack or Stanley at any point via thinkagram. I've always considered Stanley, especially now with only a handful of dwagons, as at least as big as liability as an asset.

Poor Gobwin Knob, innocently packed with uncroaked and gobwins and giant spidews. Harmless indeed. Jillian said Ansom would redecorate with radishes, some monster! And if the murder of King Saline IV is not sufficient provocation for war, maybe Ansom should have waited longer for the sanctions to work?:smallwink:

We don't know what Stanley's involvement in Saline IV's death was; we have some reason to believe that Stanley attacked other kingdoms without provocation.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Relevant Klog material:

"This started with talking to Sizemore. He told me that Casters are Commanders, and can lead stacks, but they almost never do. Casters are too rare and valuable to risk, and they give no leadership bonus to the stack anyway. Only Warlords have leadership.

Makes sense. Except for certain exceptions. Like say...the bonus to those golems if they're led by a Dirtamancer. Or the huge one to Uncroaked units being led by a Croakamancer(!)....."

In context, it reads as if the Dirtamancer bonus is an exception to otherwise general rule that only Warlords give a leadership bonus to the stack they lead. Since leading is only used in the context of leading a stack, the most straightforward interpretation is that the exception is to casters giving a bonus to the stack they lead.I'll agree that the context appears to be clear. But "groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations" doesn't mean that 8 is the maximum size for a formation. It's just the maximum size at which you take best advantage of the unit stacking bonus. So perhaps Parson got better advantage out of making a super-stack with Sizemore as their leader in the battle of the tunnels...

The rules have been only hinted at in fragments. Parson said "I am in a gamelike situation. I need a gamelike solution" and then failed to follow up on mastering the rules of the game. I've relegated several games to "no play" status amongst my friends simply by doing what you should do in a game: Play according to the victory conditions. Many people play according to what appears to be an advantageous position, but that is often at odds with actually winning a game. Hell, even in the Army I had to tell people to play to the victory conditions in games. We had occasional pugil stick contests. These were heavily padded sticks with unpadded two hand-holds you held like a quarterstaff. Thick protective gear was worn on the chest to below the groin, and a helmet for the head. The rules were simple: Knock down your opponent, must keep both hands on the pugil stick at all times, and remain in bounds of the ring. Best 2 out of three falls wins. So many guys would go in there and just swing at the opponent. This could make for a very long match, just trying to beat someone in thick armor with a padded stick. Remember the win condition: Knock down the opponent. I won and helped many other people win better and faster by playing to the victory condition. Stay low, push the other person's hands up high, and knock them down once they are off balance. That's the first win. Hook behind a knee, which can easily be done keeping both hands on the stick, and push them over with your shoulder. That's the second win. For the third win they are a little more wary. So this one you step past them while placing the stick horizontally on their upper body, and lever them down. On each win you slam your stick into their helmet as hard as possible while yelling "KILL!" at the top of your lungs. That's a nice intimidation psychological effect added to their fast loss of the round. I beat many people much larger than me by playing to the victory condition rather than playing a sheer strength game. Winning counts, losers sit down and watch others play. Parson hasn't really shown that he knows what is important: Learn the rules as best you can, use that knowledge to reach a win which might not be obvious to every other player. He did well with the "we lost every engagement and your Warlords won't level up, but oh by the way we destroyed 40% of the approaching siege engines" tactic, but other than that he's counted on others mistakes (Ansom not keeping to his plan to fully surround before attacking; Ansom not sending more forces or a stronger warlord into the tunnels, etc) rather than winning on his own merits. If you only win because your opponents make unforced errors, you're not going to win against a good player, just tards and noobies.

[SteveMB]

He never switched sides as he never fought for GK. They don't assume that he has much "honor" seeing as he's a mercenary, but they assume that he won't fail to deliver on a contract as signed. He's free to change it before it's been signed, on the other hand, which would be legit even if not to a noble's or royal's definition of "honorable."

I see Charlie as like the Thomasus the Syrian in Lest Darkness Fall, who Padway describes by saying, "Sure, he's honest. You just have to watch him." (Meaning that he'll abide by the letter of his agreements, but will ruthlessly exploit any loopholes you give him.)

[fendrin]

Exactly! The comic was originally intended to run 100-120 pages. They're now at page 134, and other originally planned major characters like the Tool can barely find a panel anymore.

Charlie has been a problem from the get go. The character was introduced far too late in the story. He's been a violation of Chekhov's writing rules for holding your audience's attention from his introduction.

And now the entire plot revolves around Charlie-Charlie-Charlie, it's all friggin Charlie. Parson's character development? His increase in skills? The artifacts and tools he's gained? The relationships and trust he's built? All insignificant compared to the power of the uber-Archons and which side Charlie chooses to place them on.

I'd love to see a giant foot come down from the sky, Monty Python style, and stomp on Charlie's fortress, eliminating it from the plot, deus ex machina style.
First, if you are going to quote me, please do so accurately or indicate that you are modifying the text by use of an ellipsis or a '<snip>' or other such device.

Second, Charlie was first mentioned on page 34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0034.html), a mere 20 pages after Parson. A hundred pages ago. A quarter of the way in to where we are now. Not exactly a last-minute introduction. And why should he have been brought in earlier? Plot demands make it unrealistic.

And you complain about Charlie but want a DeM? You have weird notions of good writing, then. In my opinion, DeM is the worst literary device ever used...

I have to wonder why the side with the 25-to-1 advantage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html) needs a "wildcard" to keep from losing horribly?

Charlie should be the wildcard which allows Parson to win, at best. But that would rob Parson of much of the anticipated tactical and strategic genius he is touted as having. Charlie is, in fact, completely unnecessary to this chapter of the story. If the intent was to introduce him for further development in future chapters, things went horribly wrong.

A wildcard, by nature, can go either way. The RCC needed the wildcard because Parson is just that good. He has kept the RCC from being able to utilize their superior numbers. Air strikes, baited traps, and so on. All intended to have small numbers of RCC forces against a superior force of GK troops.

So what role does Charlie play, literature-wise? Charlie is a foil for Parson. Consider:
GK | RCC | Role in Organization
Stanley | Ansom | The Guy in Charge
Wanda | Vinny | The One who Reigns in 'The Guy in Charge'
Sizemore | Webinar | The Loyal Underling
Parson | Charlie | The Outsider who can Save the Day

[Godskook]

I'll agree that the context appears to be clear. But "groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations" doesn't mean that 8 is the maximum size for a formation. It's just the maximum size at which you take best advantage of the unit stacking bonus. So perhaps Parson got better advantage out of making a super-stack with Sizemore as their leader in the battle of the tunnels...

Yeah, I know that the 8-man group is not as 'conventional' as we've been led to believe. TV Warlords seem to consider excessive bats a neccesity. Webinar's only known stack-size was 9. I agree that Sizemore 'led' all the golems because I believe that they were all in Sizemore's stack. This is consistent with the scenes shown, since golems are only shown with Sizemore during the tunnel fight. However, I started this line of conversation concerning Wanda's bonus being applied to units on the wall. Since I argued that caster bonus only applies in-stack and Wanda has never even been on the outer wall, by extension, I'm arguing that her bonus does not apply to units on the outer wall(remember, WAF had to re-stack so that Wanda could go get the pliers without them).

Slight tangent, Ansom is now proverbially screwed if he doesn't get his carpet back. Note the difference in his ability to fend of uncroaked. With the pliers, he was clearing them as fast as they could attack, allowing him to keep his combat reach clear of enemy units. In 134 page 121, he is engaged with 3 uncroaked, and shows difficulty dispatching them.

[BillyJimBoBob]

So what role does Charlie play, literature-wise? Charlie is a foil for Parson. Consider:
GK | RCC | Role in Organization
Stanley | Ansom | The Guy in Charge
Wanda | Vinny | The One who Reigns in 'The Guy in Charge'
Sizemore | Webinar | The Loyal Underling
Parson | Charlie | The Outsider who can Save the DayParson and Charlie are not in equal roles by any estimation, nor are they foils of each other. Charlie will work for the highest bidder, he is a mercenary overlord with mysterious motives and powerful forces and magics at his disposal. Parson is magically bound to obey and remain loyal to Tool. He commands the forces of GK in Tool's absence, and will once again be subject to Johnson-like oversight of his military decisions or be forced to find new ways to "let Tool have things Parson's way" should Tool return.

Again, Charlie should not be and has no plot driven purpose as "The Outsider who can save the day." He was (and is again, it appears) a member of the RCC with a few potent and useful units invested. He was a mere portion of the 25-to-1 odds against GK and Parson. That should be all it takes to allow Parson to demonstrate his genius for strategy and tactics and gaming the system. Charlie in his current portrayal is not needed for this chapter, he is much more "The One Who Picks the Winner" and not "The Outsider who can save the day."

[Aquillion]

Also, we don't know that Ansom doesn't have plenty of move left over, so he could theoretically have fallen into the courtyard (if that's where he is) without breaking a movement rule.No, he couldn't have. You can't move from Airspace to Courtyard without taking the Tower (or the wall) first; the courtyard is, technically, non-adjacent to airspace.

Agreed, Charlie is not being portrayed in a way in which he can be seen as being anything other than a Deus ex machina. He has a large number of potent flying, casting, very fast moving (time between the "How many _more_ Archons would it take" to their arrival was not long at all) units; the Arkendish and the potent magics it brings; the ability to hack into what were presumed by other potent casters to be private magical communications devices; the ability to craft and offer up magically binding contracts; and everyone wants and/or needs his services. He changes the status quo simply by raising his prices or by ending or entering into a new contract. The potential of his Archon forces can not be underestimated. Just as Jillian was performing reconnaissance in force and Parson used the Dwagons hit and run tactics to huge strategic advantage (few or no lost Dwagons, and 40% of the siege destroyed is huge), the Archons could be used. And he has nor been shown to have any weaknesses or limitations other than others being generally wary or distrusting of his motives. It's really just too much.
We know very little about Charlie, so it's hard to say things for certain about him. Nonetheless:

His base looks like a very small building in a mountainous and hard-to-reach area. While that seems like an advantage (and certainly helps explain why nobody has taken him out before, given his air power), in most games that means his capacity for production is limited. It's likely that, unlike Gobwin Knob (who had both dwagons and regular forces), Charlie's power is solely and exclusively dependent on the Archons granted to him by the Arkendish (plus whatever he can do with the money and such he earns by renting them out.)

On top of that, if you need another reason why nobody has taken him out (and probably most importantly, why Stanley hasn't taken him out -- with his dwagons and his holy mission, Stanley clearly had both the motive and the capacity to attempt it), the most logical explanation is that nobody knows where Charlie's base is. Why would they? He's very secretive, he uses Thinkamancy for all communications, and he sends out fast flying units which seem to be kept deployed most of the time. Of course, the flipside to that is that if someone could determine Charlie's location, they could probably beat him pretty easily -- while he has a lot of Archons, he probably has very little else, and most of his Archons are kept deployed so they can make him money (which his fortress likely can't.) His setup is, in fact, quite likely comparable to FAQ's, but with Archons instead of Gwiffons.

It is probable that the rate at which an Arkentool lets you attract more of its unit-type is very low. Remember, Stanley expressed dismay at the loss of a single blue dwagon, and outright flipped over losses greater than that (but still, theoretically, tactically salvageable, at least according to Parson.) The implication is that Charlie follows the same rules, and has very very limited options to recover dead Archons -- notice the specific concern he had for the one that died.

While it's true that Archons are valuable to the coalition, you're overestimating them. They are important mainly because they're flying units that they can hire rapidly. When Charlie cut and run from the Stanley ambush, say, it was no problem for Jetstone to pull in some air forces to make up for it -- the implication is that Cesar Borgata alone, with hits bats and bonus, was worth as much as all the (increased numbers of) Archons that the ambush party expected.

[DevilDan]

No, he couldn't have. You can't move from Airspace to Courtyard without taking the Tower (or the wall) first; the courtyard is, technically, non-adjacent to airspace.

My point is that he likely has move left; don't forget that units can cross regular hexes without killing every enemy unit in it. I don't think we know enough about city defense rules to determine what his potential moves coming from the air are or, as has been discussed by many, where Ansom, Wanda, and the arkenpliers fell exactly.

Of course, the flipside to that is that if someone could determine Charlie's location, they could probably beat him pretty easily -- while he has a lot of Archons, he probably has very little else, and most of his Archons are kept deployed so they can make him money (which his fortress likely can't.)

This is why some have suggested that it would be quite advantageous for Jack to be leading Stanley towards Charlie.

[multilis]

I feel sorry for Charlie. He has now annoyed *all* his business partners, and he is on top of the world in a way that suggests he is soon to fall.

(His most sypathetic archon is dead, and artistically and action wise audience are being lead to want him to fall)

There are hints of Thinkomancy being useful somehow, perhaps giving wrong battle orders to someone. Possible Parson will wipe out his archons.

If Charlie is secretly based at Faq he now needs to fear Caeser and friends snooping.

And finally when all your neighbours are annoyed at you, and a few have brains, there is a risk that they may forget their own conflicts and plot against you. (Perhaps hippymancy can help accomplish this)

[Aquillion]

If Charlie is secretly based at Faq he now needs to fear Caeser and friends snooping.

And finally when all your neighbours are annoyed at you, and a few have brains, there is a risk that they may forget their own conflicts and plot against you. (Perhaps hippymancy can help accomplish this)Regarding this, I suspect that Charlie is much further away. He referred to the current war as the 'great western conflict' in his first non-appearance. That implies a certain distance, to me -- who would refer to a battle happening on their doorstep that way?

[multilis]

Regarding this, I suspect that Charlie is much further away. He referred to the current war as the 'great western conflict' in his first non-appearance. That implies a certain distance, to me -- who would refer to a battle happening on their doorstep that way?

If the world is a flat map, and there are two big conflicts, one in western part, and one in eastern part, *everyone* might refer to the current war as the "western" one.

Faq kept their own location secret and hired mercs.

[Aquillion]

If the world is a flat map, and there are two big conflicts, one in western part, and one in eastern part, *everyone* might refer to the current war as the "western" one.

Faq kept their own location secret and hired mercs.I think you meant 'hired out as mercs'. We haven't seen any indication that they hired mercs themselves (so far as we know, they didn't fight defensive wars -- that was the whole point of their strategy.)

And it would still be odd for someone on the western part of the map to refer to their own local conflict as the 'great western conflict'. We haven't heard anyone else refer to it like that, for instance. Generally directional terms like that are used to refer to other places, not where you live yourself.

[fendrin]

Parson and Charlie are not in equal roles by any estimation, nor are they foils of each other. Charlie will work for the highest bidder, he is a mercenary overlord with mysterious motives and powerful forces and magics at his disposal. Parson is magically bound to obey and remain loyal to Tool. He commands the forces of GK in Tool's absence, and will once again be subject to Johnson-like oversight of his military decisions or be forced to find new ways to "let Tool have things Parson's way" should Tool return.

Again, Charlie should not be and has no plot driven purpose as "The Outsider who can save the day." He was (and is again, it appears) a member of the RCC with a few potent and useful units invested. He was a mere portion of the 25-to-1 odds against GK and Parson. That should be all it takes to allow Parson to demonstrate his genius for strategy and tactics and gaming the system. Charlie in his current portrayal is not needed for this chapter, he is much more "The One Who Picks the Winner" and not "The Outsider who can save the day."

Charlie was not a member of the RCC when Wanda estimated the 25-to-1 troop ratio. Thus the archons are not part of it.

Charlie and Parson are a lot more alike than you realize:
Intelligent and devious
Called on only as last resort
Expensive
Works for whomever hires/summons them
Considered 'weird' and inscrutable
Full capabilities are unknown
In possession of powerful magic items/artifact

I could go on further, but I think my point has been made clear.

Charlie is necessary because Parson would be able to wipe the floor with the RCC if it weren't for Charlie. Ansom is clearly not on par with Parson strategically. The story needs someone for Parson to struggle against. Charlie is the Moriarty to Parson's Holmes.

[Goshen]

That said, I am already really tired of uber-Charlie. Just wait. I think Charlie has gotten overconfident, and he's in for an ugly surprise delivered by Parson. If it happens soon, it will probably have something to do with the Arkenpliers.

[Fjolnir]

Charlie is the only Erfian equivalent to Parson, everyone else is a front line fighter or on the defence, charlie is the only KNOWN "armchair general" Erf.
Basically given the time, Charlie is what Parson can be

[Decius]

Charlie doesn't have the manpower to capture GK singlehandedly.

Since Charlie has asked how many Archons he would need to take GK (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0115.html), a lot has changed:
The units previously deployed in the Tunnel zone can now be redeployed.
The attacking units in the Tunnel zone have been animated as undead, at least some of which should hold together for a few turns.
Sizemore has won a major battle(s), and might have gained level(s).
Parson, knowing exactly how many archons he might have to face.

Or Parson, knowing how to game, made the following two calculations for Charlie:
What are the odds of 14 archons capturing Gobwin Knob given current conditions: 0%
How many additional archons are needed to caputure Gobwin Knob this turn.
What he did not answer was what the odds were of that number of archons winning. It is possible that Charlie sent exactly enough to just barely have a mathematical chance of victory. Parson still doesn't want to have to defeat Charlie as well as Ansom and the rest of the RCC.

As for the movement- The Klog only says which zones are adjacent for the purpose of attack, not movement. Ansom attacked the wall from outside; being a flying unit at the time, he was able to engage the forces independently of the siege mechanics. Were he to win the wall, he would be able to attack the courtyard, not the tower.
Then Ansom got dismounted, and either he landed in the wall zone, or he was subjected to an involuntary movement effect. (Or both) Now if he is in the courtyard, fighting in the courtyard, he must either assault the walls, then retreat to the outside, or win the courtyard, then withstand the counterattack, or MOVE (not attack) to airspace, then leave.
The confusion results from the ability for both attackers and defenders to move between places that they cannot attack.

Also, I expect the Archon's response to "you can fetch my carpet" to be "It's MY carpet now. Our contract stipulates that you cannot order me to give up my magic items to you." After all, the carpet is uncontestedly unattended and within the Archon's control. In war, possession is the law.

Conclusion: Parson has already won. The Dwagons will return, veiled, but Vinnie and co., being slower, will not make it. The Tardy elves will make an appearance four or five turns from this point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html) one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0009.html) two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0034.html) three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) four (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0062.html) five (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0089.html) six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0104.html) seven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0131.html). (All placed as close as possible to the first strip of the RCC turn.)

[Godskook]

Generally directional terms like that are used to refer to other places, not where you live yourself.

Of course, one theory of Charlie's origin is that he isn't erfian, and while your generalization is highly true of people born of the culture, it isn't always true of those from outside the culture.

[koima]

I love Charlie. And I think Charlie is a girl.

[Leewei]

I hate to admit this, but I'm getting tired of the Gobwin Knob story arc. The past several strips seem to be one big zero-sum operation. I'm hoping things resolve soon.

[Aquillion]

As I recall, it was supposed to be over around this point anyway. So we don't have too much longer to wait... the logical expectation is that it will end just before or just after Stanley gets back. And Stanley is getting back either next turn, or the turn after that.