Drolyt20: Grease, Scorching Ray, Magic Missile (PEACH)

[Drolyt]

See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9206697#post9206697).
Further changes to Scorching Ray and Magic Missile: here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9217861&postcount=12).

I have changed Grease from:
Grease
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin.
Material Component: A bit of pork rind or butter.
To:
Grease
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed as long as they make their save.

The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin.
Material Component: A bit of pork rind or butter.
Major Changes: You no longer need to make balance checks.

I have changed Scorching Ray from:
Scorching Ray
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or more rays
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.
The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all bolts must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
To:
Scorching Ray
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You blast your enemies a fiery ray. The target must make a Reflex save or take 1d6/level + Intelligence Modifier in Fire Damage.
Major Changes: Only one ray, 1d6/level damage, add Intelligence to damage, Reflex Save instead of Ranged Touch Attack.

I have changed Magic Missile from:
Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.
To:
Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+Intelligence modifier points of force damage if the target fails its save. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.
For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage. Targets save against each missile individually, even if they are targeted by multiple missiles.
Major Changes: Reflex save negates, now deals 1d4+Intelligence modifier damage.

What are everyone's thoughts on these changes? I'm thinking of making the Int to damage thing universal in order to make damage spells more useful, especially low level ones. Charisma based spellcasters will have an ability that lets them use that instead, but Divine casters won't. Beyond that I'm just trying to eliminate offensive spells that don't allow saves. Better ways of wording the spells would be good too. I know these aren't exactly the most broken spells, but I'm starting small.

[DracoDei]

I actually think Magic Missile serves a very useful purpose for the egos of people playing low level wizards in that it can only go wrong under very specific circumstances. Keeps them from losing all their possible real effectiveness to 1 or 2 unlucky dice rolls.

OTOH, if you institute my rule about "Any bonus spell slots for spell levels higher than you can currently cast are instead added to the highest spell level you currently CAN cast." then it becomes more tenable.

[Drolyt]

I actually think Magic Missile serves a very useful purpose for the egos of people playing low level wizards in that it can only go wrong under very specific circumstances. Keeps them from losing all their possible real effectiveness to 1 or 2 unlucky dice rolls.

OTOH, if you institute my rule about "Any bonus spell slots for spell levels higher than you can currently cast are instead added to the highest spell level you currently CAN cast." then it becomes more tenable.

Every other character can lose their effectiveness to 1 or 2 unlucky die rolls. As for low level spellcasters having so few slots, I'm planning on fixing that at some point. My current thoughts are allowing casters to recover their slots inbetween battles, but at the cost of having less slots, especially at high levels. That way casters can't nova, but they can help all day.

[Thinker]

You have made Grease less desirable and less reliable. This is probably a good thing, but unless you're removing the effectiveness of all of the other low level spells (like Color Spray), this simply means Grease will be used slightly less often. It is still a good low-level save or suck spell since spell DC's can be boosted so well.

I like the change in Scorching Ray for the sake of damage. I dislike changing Rays to simply being another Save or X spell. It serves to decrease MAD for the Wizard. I'm ambivalent about changing the ray from multiple rays to a single one. On the one hand, it does streamline combat (fewer rolls), but on the other, it makes the spell less reliable to do something (greater chance of totally failing versus partially failing).

Magic Missile went from utterly stupid to totally worthless. There's still no reason anyone should use this spell.

Overall, neither of the damage spells gain anything that makes them as (or more) worthwhile than controlling spells. They don't do anything unique to that other classes can't do (and often do better).

[Drolyt]

You have made Grease less desirable and less reliable. This is probably a good thing, but unless you're removing the effectiveness of all of the other low level spells (like Color Spray), this simply means Grease will be used slightly less often. It is still a good low-level save or suck spell since spell DC's can be boosted so well.
Yes, I plan on balancing out all the spells that make spellcasters so overpowered. Grease may have been low on the list, but I had to start somewhere. Yes, it is still useful, but the Balance check was abusable on high level monsters that were so large they auto failed and fell over.
I like the change in Scorching Ray for the sake of damage. I dislike changing Rays to simply being another Save or X spell. It serves to decrease MAD for the Wizard. I'm ambivalent about changing the ray from multiple rays to a single one. On the one hand, it does streamline combat (fewer rolls), but on the other, it makes the spell less reliable to do something (greater chance of totally failing versus partially failing).

Magic Missile went from utterly stupid to totally worthless. There's still no reason anyone should use this spell.

Overall, neither of the damage spells gain anything that makes them as (or more) worthwhile than controlling spells. They don't do anything unique to that other classes can't do (and often do better).
I am uncertain about Magic Missile. I want blasting spells to be somewhat useful, but I don't like an unresistable attack. The change in Scorching Ray was needed however because of how abusable it was with Metamagic feats at high levels. I also disagree about the saves thing. Ranged Touch spells are overpowered. I plan to exchange them all for Reflex saves. That might be unpopular, but it is the right choice balance wise.

[Milskidasith]

Magic Missile is now really weak and probably worthless; with a really high int bonus, it can deal as much as a good blast spell, but the whole point is that it is an unresistable backup, not a decently high damaging (at higher levels, though by that time most of the good "blast" spells are double threats) blast spell that deals force damage.

Grease changes are probably good.

Scorching ray is now a generic and really bad blast spell; it's only good at the time it's released for slightly above board damage, ability to deliver MM on hit effects, and the fact it's a ranged touch attack. As it stands, it's like fireball, except single target and a spell level lower, and I'm sure there are plenty of spells like that at second level. The int bonus to damge is nice, but not enough to make it decent, and while obviously it isn't a good idea to let casters counter everything, ranged touch attacks aren't too awful to give casters.

[Thinker]

Yes, I plan on balancing out all the spells that make spellcasters so overpowered. Grease may have been low on the list, but I had to start somewhere. Yes, it is still useful, but the Balance check was abusable on high level monsters that were so large they auto failed and fell over.
Balance isn't affected by size and isn't even a trained-only skill. The reason it is bad is because most things typically have no reason to put any ranks into balance and so the skill DC of 10 continues to be difficult to hit.


I am uncertain about Magic Missile. I want blasting spells to be somewhat useful, but I don't like an unresistable attack. The change in Scorching Ray was needed however because of how abusable it was with Metamagic feats at high levels. I also disagree about the saves thing. Ranged Touch spells are overpowered. I plan to exchange them all for Reflex saves. That might be unpopular, but it is the right choice balance wise.
You're redesigning spells anyway. You could make Magic Missile useful or you could remove it.

Nearly all spells are abusable at high levels with Metamagic feats. Ranged Touch spells are not necessarily overpowered, given that threats should stop relying solely on AC for protection by ~level 8 (and Displacer Beasts are way before even then). I'm also not really sure how dealing damage and potentially one-shotting something with enough optimization is any worse than the barbarian leap-attack/charge/kill combo or to other wizard spells that enable them to end an entire encounter.

As an example, if I play a wizard who focuses on ray spells, I forgo higher spell DC's (because I pump Dex more than normal and leave less for Int), I typically deal damage (something anyone else in the party could be doing), and I have fewer spells per day (with the reduced Int).

The problem with balance is that you have to essentially rewrite all of the classes so that they have a similar level of power if you want them to be similarly powered. Alternatively, you could just play with classes that are already similarly powered (see the JaronK's tiers) or simply accept that some classes are better than others and go on with your game.

[Jane_Smith]

Or just play 4.0 where everything is cookie cutter balanced. -rollseyes

[Drolyt]

Balance isn't affected by size and isn't even a trained-only skill. The reason it is bad is because most things typically have no reason to put any ranks into balance and so the skill DC of 10 continues to be difficult to hit.
Right, I was getting confused. The reason I was thinking big creatures was because they often have low Dex. Sufficient Dex makes Grease less bad. The other problem is the penalty from armor, at higher levels Grease is the best 1st level spell against heavily armored characters since they can never move.
You're redesigning spells anyway. You could make Magic Missile useful or you could remove it.
I hope to make it useful, but I don't want it to outshine noncasters. It will probably undergo revision.
Nearly all spells are abusable at high levels with Metamagic feats. Ranged Touch spells are not necessarily overpowered, given that threats should stop relying solely on AC for protection by ~level 8 (and Displacer Beasts are way before even then). I'm also not really sure how dealing damage and potentially one-shotting something with enough optimization is any worse than the barbarian leap-attack/charge/kill combo or to other wizard spells that enable them to end an entire encounter.

Scorching Ray is one of the most abusable damage spells for Metamagic. The only really worse ones are the Orb spells. Precisely because of the ranged touch attack everyone is saying isn't that bad. Of course, I'm going to nerf or axe Metamagic anyways, so maybe I was too harsh on Scorching Ray. Maybe I should allow the multiple rays again. Also, how does the existence of other broken combos mean I shouldn't stop this one? I'll get to the other ones.
As an example, if I play a wizard who focuses on ray spells, I forgo higher spell DC's (because I pump Dex more than normal and leave less for Int), I typically deal damage (something anyone else in the party could be doing), and I have fewer spells per day (with the reduced Int).
Yeah, some Wizard builds do that. Although not the most powerful of Wizard builds they are quite powerful.
The problem with balance is that you have to essentially rewrite all of the classes so that they have a similar level of power if you want them to be similarly powered. Alternatively, you could just play with classes that are already similarly powered (see the JaronK's tiers) or simply accept that some classes are better than others and go on with your game.
Yep, I'm going to rewrite all of the classes.
Or just play 4.0 where everything is cookie cutter balanced. -rollseyes
I'd rather not.

[Thinker]

Scorching Ray is one of the most abusable damage spells for Metamagic. The only really worse ones are the Orb spells. Precisely because of the ranged touch attack everyone is saying isn't that bad. Of course, I'm going to nerf or axe Metamagic anyways, so maybe I was too harsh on Scorching Ray. Maybe I should allow the multiple rays again. Also, how does the existence of other broken combos mean I shouldn't stop this one? I'll get to the other ones.
I think you need to establish a baseline for balance and verisimilitude before you start fixing and rewriting things. If you don't you will miss things and you get something that looks like Pathfinder. Alternatively, look at Fax's d20r (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r), which seems like it has interesting mechanics that don't break a sense of consistency very much, while maintaining a similar level of balance.

[Drolyt]

I think you need to establish a baseline for balance and verisimilitude before you start fixing and rewriting things. If you don't you will miss things and you get something that looks like Pathfinder. Alternatively, look at Fax's d20r (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r), which seems like it has interesting mechanics that don't break a sense of consistency very much, while maintaining a similar level of balance.

Well, I want balance and verisimilitude both, as much as possible. Verisimilitude is part of my problem with 4e. Is there something about what I am trying to do that is anti-verisimilitude in your opinion? Removing the balance check from grease? Replacing ranged touch attacks with Reflex saves?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Using the tier system for 3.5, I'm trying to increase/decrease everything until a high 3rd tier. I want everyone to have powerful abilities useful in a variety of situations. I don't need perfect balance. I think that no matter what I do spellcasters will be somewhat stronger, especially at high levels, if I stick to my plan of letting them do most of what they can do now while maintaining verisimilitude.

As for verisimilitude, this isn't a reality simulator. I want people to be able to use the rules without losing their suspension of disbelief, which I think happens in 3rd edition but not 4th.

As for Pathfinder, since you brought it up, I don't find that they fixed much. I like what they did with skills and that they removed dead levels but aside from that it is still 3.5 with all of 3.5s problems. I'm glad that they are supporting 3.5 though.

[Drolyt]

Okay, I've changed Scorching Ray to:

Scorching Ray
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One or More rays
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd. Each ray deals 4d6 + Intelligence Modifier points of fire damage. Each individual ray allows a Reflex save to negate.

The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all bolts must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.
And Magic Missile to:
Magic Missile
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+Intelligence modifier points of force damage. The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, four at 7th, and the maximum of five missiles at 9th level or higher. If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.

[Jane_Smith]

I think I just got a little horney at your magic missile. ._. Seriously. Id cast magic missile all day long if i could do 1d4+3-5 damage a missile. :P Though, wizards at level 1-3 always needed a small damage boost anyway. I mean, seriously, they cant even do longsword damage at level 1. Thats pretty sad.

I think -all- spells? Should use the casters spellcasting ability modifier in some way to augment damage or effects. This applys to your spells - please make it 'caster ability modifier', not int, for sorcerers and the like please. I would love to see a massive revision of the spells that augmented them in such a way.

[Drolyt]

I think I just got a little horney at your magic missile. ._. Seriously. Id cast magic missile all day long if i could do 1d4+3-5 damage a missile. :P Though, wizards at level 1-3 always needed a small damage boost anyway. I mean, seriously, they cant even do longsword damage at level 1. Thats pretty sad.

I think -all- spells? Should use the casters spellcasting ability modifier in some way to augment damage or effects. This applys to your spells - please make it 'caster ability modifier', not int, for sorcerers and the like please. I would love to see a massive revision of the spells that augmented them in such a way.

Yeah, I plan to make it all spells. I also want it to apply to all characters, I was just writing Int because I can't think of an elegant way to say "caster ability modifier".

[Jane_Smith]

X + (caster's key spellcasting ability modifier).

Its not pretty, but its accurate. :P

[Latronis]

I'd call it primary rather than key

[Drolyt]

X + (caster's key spellcasting ability modifier).

Its not pretty, but its accurate. :P

I guess I'll go with that for now, and maybe introduce a shorthand later.

[Jane_Smith]

Actually hes right, it is "casters primary spellcasting ability modifier". x.X my bad. I was thinking of how they word skills and their 'key' ability modifiers. XD

[Drolyt]

Actually hes right, it is "casters primary spellcasting ability modifier". x.X my bad. I was thinking of how they word skills and their 'key' ability modifiers. XD

Right, I'll do that tonight.

[Thinker]

Yeah, I plan to make it all spells. I also want it to apply to all characters, I was just writing Int because I can't think of an elegant way to say "caster ability modifier".

Why don't you just get rid of all regular damage spells then? Simply make a single spell that reads something like:
The spellcaster attacks the opponent with a blast of energy. The type of energy (sonic, fire, electricity, acid, or force) is selected when the spell is prepared. This spell does 1d6 damage per caster level plus the caster's primary ability modifier. A reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + primary ability modifier) can be rolled to negate the damage.

There's your generic damaging spell. You can come up with another dozen or so spells and just use metamagic feats to modify those spells. Hell, get rid of spell levels, too and just make it so that various metamagic feats are unavailable until certain levels. Also, give some of the feats out as class features. I think it would greatly reduce the amount of work you end up doing rewriting all of the spells.

For example:
Enlarge Spell - Changes the target from a single target to an area of effect equal to 5 feet per primary casting ability modifier. Prereq: Caster level of 5 or higher.

[Drolyt]

Why don't you just get rid of all regular damage spells then? Simply make a single spell that reads something like:
The spellcaster attacks the opponent with a blast of energy. The type of energy (sonic, fire, electricity, acid, or force) is selected when the spell is prepared. This spell does 1d6 damage per caster level plus the caster's primary ability modifier. A reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + primary ability modifier) can be rolled to negate the damage.

There's your generic damaging spell. You can come up with another dozen or so spells and just use metamagic feats to modify those spells. Hell, get rid of spell levels, too and just make it so that various metamagic feats are unavailable until certain levels. Also, give some of the feats out as class features. I think it would greatly reduce the amount of work you end up doing rewriting all of the spells.

For example:
Enlarge Spell - Changes the target from a single target to an area of effect equal to 5 feet per primary casting ability modifier. Prereq: Caster level of 5 or higher.

This isn't a bad idea. Let me think about it.

[Latronis]

Problem with that is it changes the flavour. While that kind of customization on the fly suits a sorcerer nicely, much better than RAW even it kinda removes some of that studious pseudo-scientific difficult-but-rewarding-art of wizardry

[Drolyt]

Problem with that is it changes the flavour. While that kind of customization on the fly suits a sorcerer nicely, much better than RAW even it kinda removes some of that studious pseudo-scientific difficult-but-rewarding-art of wizardry

I was thinking that Wizards couldn't do it on the fly. It's like metamagic, they have to prepare their spells a certain way. Sorcerers might be able to do it on the fly, I'm not sure yet.

[Latronis]

Still the implied formula of set spells and spell slots does match the description of wizard spellcasting well.

But moving on,

EDIT: moved to other topic