Asajj Ventress vs Darth Maul?

[Comrade]

I admittedly have little experience in these versus threads that people seem quite fond of, but this one just happened to come to me at one point and I wondered if it was a decent match up.

Would Asajj Ventress (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Asajj_Ventress) vs Darth Maul (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maul) (both, of course, from the Star Wars universe) be a good match-up? It seems to me that they are very similar fighters in many ways, and I thought it might be a good match-up. But let me know if they're too similar, or if the match-up is otherwise bad.

Supposing these two Force-sensitives from two relatively close periods of time were to fight one another, who would be victorious?

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not really familiar enough with Asaji Ventress to comment.

But I did make the mistake of clicking the wiki links, and now am aware that they've Boba-Fetted Darth Maul, too.

Can't people let fancy looking extras stay dead? Apparently not.

[comicshorse]

I'm not really familiar enough with Asaji Ventress to comment.

But I did make the mistake of clicking the wiki links, and now am aware that they've Boba-Fetted Darth Maul, too.

Can't people let fancy looking extras stay dead? Apparently not.

He was cut in two for heaven's sake !:smallfurious:

[Trixie]

As much as I like Ventress, Maul was a Sith Lord. Ventress could barely handle one Jedi Knight, Maul took on Jedi Master with support, and virtually won. In one Infinities, Maul takes on Darth Vader in his prime, and almost kills him until Vader remembers he is a cyborg and abuses that to win.

Hard to say, but unless Ventress has some hidden ace, I'd say Maul would defeat her with little problems.

[hamishspence]

As much as I like Ventress, Maul was a Sith Lord. Ventress could barely handle one Jedi Knight, Maul took on Jedi Master with support, and virtually won. In one Infinities, Maul takes on Darth Vader in his prime, and almost kills him until Vader remembers he is a cyborg and abuses that to win.

While intially an Infinities story, it was later made canon:

He was first "resurrected" in Star Wars Tales 9, where he fought Darth Vader in the short Infinities story Resurrection, though it was never made clear in the story how this Maul was resurrected. Leland Chee later declared that the incident was canon, without clarifying the origins of this doppelgänger.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Resurrection

[thubby]

maul would probably win. though I'd say mostly because direct combat is his thing.

ventress, per her own admittance, is an assassin more than anything.

[Comrade]

I'm leaning towards Ventress myself. Ultimatly, Maul was killed by a Padawan, whereas Ventress locked swords with Mace Windu (regarded as one of the greatest Jedi duellists of all time) and killed several Jedi Masters. [Can't make a full responce now as I'm typing off my iPod :v]

[Trixie]

You mean the one guy who had plot armor the size of Coruscant? :smallconfused:

Seriously, how someone with supernatural reflex can stare at enemy doing flip entirety within his sword range for 5 seconds is beyond me.

Also, Ventress went against the same guy and had her ass handed to her every time, even when he was unarmed, beaten and starving after long imprisonment.

[Dienekes]

SW power levels are a ridiculous thing to keep straight, especially when expanding to all the EU shenanigans.

For instance Windu was regarded as one of the greatest swordsman when looking at most the EU. Crack open a book from a guy who really enjoyed Liam Nesson's portrayal of Qui-Gon for some reason that will forever elude me, and bam, apparently Qui-Gon was one of the few jedi who sparred against Windu as an equal. Don't believe me? Check the wiki.

Now going into the actual question, I'd place my money on Maul in a straight up fight, because supposedly that's what his talent lies in. If Ventriss and Maul actually had to find and outsmart each other, then I would give the hand to Ventriss, simply because Maul seems like a complete idiot in the first movie.

[Trixie]

Now going into the actual question, I'd place my money on Maul in a straight up fight, because supposedly that's what his talent lies in. If Ventriss and Maul actually had to find and outsmart each other, then I would give the hand to Ventriss, simply because Maul seems like a complete idiot in the first movie.

I think it's more 'when your powers are a big hammer, all problems start looking like nails' mindset :smalltongue:

[Candle Jack]

Interestingly, Asaji Ventress did recruit Darth Maul's brother to serve as Count Dooku's bodyguard in The Clone Wars series.

I give the nod to Darth Maul, who was one of the most skilled fighters ever featured in the Star Wars universe. He only fell to Obi-Wan because he let his guard down.

[hamishspence]

In the comics, and the novel Shadow Hunter, Maul does demonstrate a certain talent when it comes to hunting people down.

So it's possible that he might not be so far behind Ventress when it comes to cunning.

[Dienekes]

In the comics, and the novel Shadow Hunter, Maul does demonstrate a certain talent when it comes to hunting people down.

So it's possible that he might not be so far behind Ventress when it comes to cunning.

Oh he shows a talent for tracking in the movie as well. Hell he found the Jedi and Padme in the couple days they were on Tatooine. It's what he does once he finds them that makes me think there's not a whole lot going upstairs.

CHARGE THE JEDI THUS REVEALING THE SECRET KEPT HIDDEN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS! If I win, well, the rest will still escape. If I lose, well then I'm dead and the whole thing was pointless.

I'M THE GREATEST SITH EVAH!

Now let me mock you and stare in disbelief as you cut me in half.

[Emmerask]

To be fair though ep 1-3 was completely riddled with such plans where either outcome would be undesirable for the planner ^^

Palpatine: yeah go after them with all you have darth maul, no matter that they are actually exactly doing what I want them to do!

outcome1: he fails, thereby revealing that there are still sith in the galaxy == fail.
outcome2: maul wins, thereby destroying the whole plot to become Emperor == fail.

Smart move there :smallbiggrin:

p.s.: and as always I blame george lucas for not thinking his own plot through to the end :smallwink:

[Comrade]

But I did make the mistake of clicking the wiki links, and now am aware that they've Boba-Fetted Darth Maul, too.

At least with Boba it was a good choice (in my opinion). Resurrecting Darth Maul constantly after his death wasn't.

I'm still of the opinion Ventress would be able to take out Darth Maul. Hell, Sidious considered her enough of a threat that he feared Dooku would use her to overthrow him and ordered Dooku to have her killed (an attempt which she survived). She also seems more powerful in terms of Force powers, and in using Force powers in concert with her already considerable lightsaber duelling skills. She was able to conquer an entire planet and killing all the warlords who opposed her in doing so, was worshipped on the planet Mauk as a goddess of death, and bested several Jedi Masters in one on one combat from Luminara Unduli (who herself possessed superb lightsaber skills and combat prowess, and was aided at the time by Ahsoka Tano) to Obi-Wan Kenobi on several occasions (he was only saved usually by the timely arrival of an ally such as Kit Fisto or Anakin Skywalker right before Ventress was about to kill him).

Maul, conversely, though he is skilled with a lightsaber, shows no particular notable proficiency with the Force that I know of, and on one of his early missions got his ass whooped by a retired Jedi Master (Manka) wielding a wooden staff (though he did later return and killed Manka, because he this time used a double-bladed lightsaber to surprise Manka). He nearly lost in a duel to a padawan and her master (which seems a familiar scenario to him >.>), though the Jedi master ended up killing himself in a failed attempt to kill Maul. Later, he fought Padawan Kenobi and Qui-Gonn Jinn, managed to separate the two, and did indeed manage to kill Qui-Gonn (the only Jedi that Maul, in his life, actually managed to kill on his own) before proceeding to be cut in half by Jinn's padawan.

And I do like Dienekes' point (though he did track them down, he was unable to prevent them from leaving the planet).

[thubby]

Smart move there :smallbiggrin:

p.s.: and as always I blame george lucas for not thinking his own plot through to the end :smallwink:

how would those jedi getting murdered ruin his plan? he killed them all in the end anyway. he didnt need anakin for that, he just needed the chosen one to not be in his way.

[Dienekes]

how would those jedi getting murdered ruin his plan? he killed them all in the end anyway. he didnt need anakin for that, he just needed the chosen one to not be in his way.

It doesn't make sense because of how Palpatine planned to gain power.

His goal was to sow seeds of discontent for the original Chancellor, to do that he needed the voice of Padme to make the appeal to the Senate and call for a vote of no confidence. So above all else he needed Padme to get to Corruscant alive, a little worse for ware, but alive. Which would happen so long as he doesn't do anything.

So then he sends Maul to go kill them.

Looking at Ep 1, if you take Maul out completely Palpatine's plan would have gone the exact same way, and he wouldn't reveal his hand to the Jedi showing that there were Sith remaining. Mind you they didn't do much with that knowledge, but that's going into another problem with the writing.

[Trixie]

It doesn't make sense because of how Palpatine planned to gain power.

His goal was to sow seeds of discontent for the original Chancellor, to do that he needed the voice of Padme to make the appeal to the Senate and call for a vote of no confidence. So above all else he needed Padme to get to Corruscant alive, a little worse for ware, but alive. Which would happen so long as he doesn't do anything.

So then he sends Maul to go kill them.

Maybe there was a backup plan? :smallconfused:

Maul kills them, Trade Federation just keeps robbing the planet, and 6 months later "someone" just leaks convenient report of the atrocities causing the same events? Palpatine ends up richer, there are 2 less Jedi to deal with, and Maul could possibly capture Anakin right there.

Note that Amidala's plea didn't do much, really, the only thing she really did was to cause Valorum's resignation, but seeing Valorum's expression, "someone" obviously influenced the vote to take unexpected turn of events. Palpatine could have arranged the vote in other ways, I'm sure.

[Tiki Snakes]

Mm. I think it's one of those situations where, it's not such a big plothole that it can't be satisfyingly rationalised away, but it is a big enough plot-hole to be a flaw rather than a feature.

Whatever he was supposed to be planning, it was a little disjointed and inelegant.

It only really makes sense if the idea all along was to get Darth Maul killed, perhaps with his success in killing Qui-Gon an unwanted suprise? As much as that would fix things though, to be supported it would have needed to be actually hinted at in some way on-screen.

[Mando Knight]

Interestingly, Asaji Ventress did recruit Darth Maul's brother to serve as Count Dooku's bodyguard in The Clone Wars series.

Who was then boosted to almost-Maul levels via the Nightsisters' Force magic and alchemy. It may sound weird, but that's because their rituals do some weird stuff.

[Friv]

I had always assumed that the original plan was for the Trade Federation to succeed in their blockade, allowing Senator Palpatine to have an excuse to call in favours and take control of the Senate in order to address this "terrible thing" that had occurred.

When the Jedi rescued the Queen, he developed a fallback plan based around her being the one to call for this.

I also assumed that, given that he had Dooku in his back pocket, he wanted the Jedi to be running around looking for sith and getting panicky, so that they would take the Seperatist threat seriously enough to get involved directly instead of hanging back like they usually do.

Anyway, on-topic, I think that Ventriss would be a reasonable challenger, but Maul would have the edge. He was a pretty amazing fighter.

[Emmerask]

The problem is that if they succeeded then sooner or later padme would have signed the treaty which would have made the whole thing "legal".

Yes there would still be some disagreement about the legality but from what we have seen this is pretty much business as usual for it, so overall the overthrowing of the current chancellor would have been a lot more complicated if not impossible at that time.

[Dienekes]

Maybe there was a backup plan? :smallconfused:

Very possibly, but I really can't think how it works. Of course I've never masterminded the take over of a government before so the difference in scales of our intelligence should be readily apparent from that fact alone.

Maul kills them, Trade Federation just keeps robbing the planet, and 6 months later "someone" just leaks convenient report of the atrocities causing the same events? Palpatine ends up richer, there are 2 less Jedi to deal with, and Maul could possibly capture Anakin right there.

Note that Amidala's plea didn't do much, really, the only thing she really did was to cause Valorum's resignation, but seeing Valorum's expression, "someone" obviously influenced the vote to take unexpected turn of events. Palpatine could have arranged the vote in other ways, I'm sure.

You see, for one, Valorum's expressions is that of someone who just got booted out of audience in front of everyone he knows. It could be a surprise or not, but I'm willing to bet that yeah Palpatine manipulated himself into power.

But anyway, Palpatine is the representative of Naboo. If Naboo is taken over by the TF and Padme signs the treaty Palpatine loses the planet he's representing. He gets booted out of office. No one knew about Anakin, so there's no reason for Maul to go after him, or keep him alive. Also who would respect a political representative who couldn't figure out his planet was ransacked for 6 months?

[Comrade]

>.>
<.<

Methinks this went kinda off-topic :v

[Trixie]

But anyway, Palpatine is the representative of Naboo. If Naboo is taken over by the TF and Padme signs the treaty Palpatine loses the planet he's representing. He gets booted out of office. No one knew about Anakin, so there's no reason for Maul to go after him, or keep him alive. Also who would respect a political representative who couldn't figure out his planet was ransacked for 6 months?

Loses? :smallconfused:

I don't know, I figure he would have claimed the government to be illegal, treaty to be made under duress, claim being government in exile, leaked convenient coverage of atrocities to the press, using his new popularity to boot out Valorum and become new Chancellor? :smallconfused:

As for Anakin, if Qui Gon could feel the Force is strong with him, so can Maul, and Maul since his promotion to Sith Lord would be looking for new apprentice anyway.

I don't get the 6 months bit, Palpatine can claim simple information blackout due to occupation, and that's it.

[SmartAlec]

Maul, conversely, though he is skilled with a lightsaber, shows no particular notable proficiency with the Force that I know of...

Maul's a bit of an odd duck, preferring to outright beat people with a lightsaber and martial arts rather than with everything at his disposal. Doesn't mean he doesn't have any proficiency, though. Maul can move objects very well, as during the duel on Naboo, he just seems to point to an object and it immediately flies to where he needs it to go with no visible effort or delay on his part. And once the chips are down, he has no problems with Pushing Obi-Wan into a pit.

Looking up Ventress on Wookiepaedia, it suggests that her combat style has some weaknesses - lack of physical power, and a reliance on a second lightsaber blade. Those are two things Maul could easily turn to his advantage. He has a lot of power behind his hits and kicks, and he doesn't have any problems with using a single blade. After losing one in mid-combat against Obi-Wan, Maul starts busting out a completely different set of single-blade moves.

As for Maul being dumb, he does seem that way - but although it's not wholly clear in the movie, you can see that once he starts fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he moves from the open area of the hangar to the narrow walkways and enclosed spaces of the power generation area, where neither Jedi can use their preferred acrobatic lightsaber style and he can seperate them. That suggests he's actually quite smart, at least in terms of tactics.

So I'm thinking they may be very closely matched. Maul's loss against the Jedi with a stick came during his training, before he was a full Sith - and the Jedi in question was one of the greatest duellists of his time. Similarly, Ventress couldn't overpower Dooku early in her career, and Dooku was also considered one of the great duellists of his time.

[Comrade]

Maul's a bit of an odd duck, preferring to outright beat people with a lightsaber and martial arts rather than with everything at his disposal. Doesn't mean he doesn't have any proficiency, though. Maul can move objects very well, as during the duel on Naboo, he just seems to point to an object and it immediately flies to where he needs it to go with no visible effort or delay on his part. And once the chips are down, he has no problems with Pushing Obi-Wan into a pit.

Looking up Ventress on Wookiepaedia, it suggests that her combat style has some weaknesses - lack of physical power, and a reliance on a second lightsaber blade. Those are two things Maul could easily turn to his advantage. He has a lot of power behind his hits and kicks, and he doesn't have any problems with using a single blade. After losing one in mid-combat against Obi-Wan, Maul starts busting out a completely different set of single-blade moves.

As for Maul being dumb, he does seem that way - but although it's not wholly clear in the movie, you can see that once he starts fighting Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he moves from the open area of the hangar to the narrow walkways and enclosed spaces of the power generation area, where neither Jedi can use their preferred acrobatic lightsaber style and he can seperate them. That suggests he's actually quite smart, at least in terms of tactics.

So I'm thinking they may be very closely matched. Maul's loss against the Jedi with a stick came during his training, before he was a full Sith - and the Jedi in question was one of the greatest duellists of his time. Similarly, Ventress couldn't overpower Dooku early in her career, and Dooku was also considered one of the great duellists of his time.

You must remember that Ventress was only physically weaker and less capable of placing power into her attacks early on in her career--after becoming a Dark Acolyte, she trained and quickly compensated, to the point that she could hold blade locks with two opponents simultaneously and still overpower them both. She does rely on using the second blade, though.

And though his power with telekenesis can be seen to be at least proficient, as well as force push, nothing evidences Maul to be nearly as skilled as Ventress--even in telekenesis, as she was capable of tearing down entire sections of an arena even before she became a Dark Acolyte. And she's also shown as being quite proficient with using the Force to make her deadlier in melee, using Force Speed and Force Jump to her advantage.

Now that I watch that fight scene again though, Qui-Gonn Jinn doesn't really seem like that great of a duellist. His padawan did a much better job at it than he did (cleaving Maul's saber in half, kicking the 'Sith Lord'--I hardly think he deserves the title-to the ground). And in the end, Maul had a pretty good window there to react to Kenobi leaping out of the pit and igniting a lightsaber, but he just stood there shocked (okay, so he managed to whirl around in time to get bisected). I think Ventress would have been able to react far more quickly in the same situation.

[SmartAlec]

Now that I watch that fight scene again though, Qui-Gonn Jinn doesn't really seem like that great of a duellist.

He's a master of a lightsaber form called Ataru, which emphasises acrobatic moves, flanking your opponents, and a lot of high-energy movement. Both Yoda and Darth Sidious use similar styles. Both times he fights Maul he's at a disadvantage, though. The first, he's tired from trekking through a desert, and the second, he's on terrain that prevents him from doing what he's best at. He had to fall back on more basic styles. We never really see him at his best, sadly.

(After Maul demonstrated Ataru's rather significant situational drawbacks, Obi-Wan decided to study a more defensive, straightforward style of lightsaber combat called Soresu.)

Although Ventress is a very powerful force-using telekinetic, and can ruin the day of a whole army of people using it - and I'm going by her appearance in the Clone Wars cartoons, here, as that's all I've seen her in - she never seems to have much luck using her telekinesis in combat against another lightsaber-wielder. It barely fazes Dooku, and Anakin weathers it and even deflects it back at her on one occasion.

I have a feeling that the fight would go thus: If Ventress can keep Maul at a distance and wear him down, she likely wins. If Maul can close the gap or maneuver Ventress into fighting him, he likely wins.

[KnightDisciple]

SmartAlec's right about fighting styles. Qui-Gon was basically in the worst place possible for his last fight.

As for the general topic...I think it's hard to say. Offhand, I'd give the edge to Ventress due to displayed powers. At range, for sure. Up close, I'd say it's 50/50. Maul seem very unflappable, so he wouldn't be intimidated by anything Ventress tried.

One thing for sure: It'd be an interesting battle to watch.

[Dr.Epic]

The answer is Werewolf Queen! It's always Werewolf Queen!:smallwink:

But for this, my vote goes to the guy played by Ray Park.