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KingRexII
11-09-2008, 08:00 AM
I was working with fractional saves for a game I'm going to DM when the question of what to do with medium saves came up. After doing the calculations, I was wondering if we could extrapolate the next two levels of saves based on a base number and a recurring fraction, where you can calculate the save equal to
Save = Base + (Level x Fraction)
You always round down.

Here's what I've got:
|Poor|Medium|Good||Great|Amazing|Perfect
1st|0|1|2||3|4|6
2nd|0|1|3||4|5|7
3rd|1|2|3||5|6|8
4th|1|2|4||5|7|9
5th|1|3|4||6|7|10
6th|2|3|5||7|8|11
7th|2|3|5||7|9|12
8th|2|4|6||8|10|13
9th|3|4|6||9|10|14
10th|3|5|7||9|11|15
11th|3|5|7||10|12|16
12th|4|6|8||11|13|17
13th|4|6|8||11|13|18
14th|4|6|9||12|14|19
15th|5|7|9||13|15|20
16th|5|7|10||13|16|21
17th|5|8|10||14|16|22
18th|6|8|11||15|17|23
19th|6|9|11||15|18|24
20th|6|9|12||16|19|25
|||||||
Base|0|1|2||3|4|5
Fraction|1/3|.425|1/2||2/3|3/4|1

So first of all, do the progressions look correct to you? The ending saves don't end up in a nice 3-9-12-15-18 pattern, but I wanted to use easier-to-grok fractions, unlike the medium saves. Second, is it useful or are they too ridiculously high? I don't usually hang out in the 15+ levels in games so I haven't really sat down and figured out if these saves could be used in designing a class.

EDIT: Zeta Kai had a great suggestion that these could be useful in a low- or no-magic world.

Baron Corm
11-09-2008, 10:58 AM
The base DC for a 9th level spell is 19. They have been pumping their casting stat, while you probably haven't been pumping your save stat, but you also get to add 1d20 to your roll, and things like Iron Will are generally more abundant and powerful than Spell Focus. Not to mention that if you're just facing a creature ability, the base DC at level 20 would be 20, and they're probably NOT pumping their stat or taking Ability Focus feats. So I think it is a little high. I haven't checked out the levels other than 20 though. If you made just the Amazing column, and had it end at 15 for us OCD people, that might be ok, but the class's other features might have to suffer, so I dunno.

The Medium saves at least are used from time to time, I have seen that before, because sometimes a class doesn't suck but isn't great. Like a fighter could have Good Fort Med Ref Bad Will. Not exactly a swift type, but still combat-dodging-oriented.

Zeta Kai
11-09-2008, 12:55 PM
The bonuses to saving throws are so low in the D20 ruleset because standard D&D assumes that you will have access to spells & magic items of increasing power at higher levels, which will supplement your stats appropriately. Therefore, in a "normal" D&D campaign (IE one with full spellcasters & Christmas-tree-effect magic items), Amazing & Perfect save bonuses are too powerful.

However, in a low-magic or no-magic campaign, Amazing & Perfect save bonuses would become almost a necessity, especially in cases where powerful monsters still roam to challenge higher-level parties. This table could be the model for a low/no-magic variant, where a character's inherent stats are what really matter, not a character's gear. I think I rather like that idea. Many people have complained that D20 rules necessitate that PCs must be festooned with magical gear in order to compete effectively against level-appropriate opponents. This could make for a nice alternative to that.

I do suggest a couple of things:

How about a couple of name changes? Make "Amazing" into "Great", then make "Perfect" into "Amazing".
Reserve "Perfect" for an additional formula: Save = 5 + (Level × 1). That can be an insane top of the scale, reserved for only the most dedicated to a skill.
Create some feats that allow for the acquisition of these saves. The first one (change good save to great save) should only be accessible at 1st level, & then further upgrades would require having that initial feat.
Lastly, the same principle could be applied to BAB. Great BAB = Level × 1.25, Amazing = Level × 1.5, Perfect BAB = Level × 1.75, & Sublime BAB = Level × 2.

Thoughts?

KingRexII
11-09-2008, 09:53 PM
I do suggest a couple of things:

How about a couple of name changes? Make "Amazing" into "Great", then make "Perfect" into "Amazing".
Reserve "Perfect" for an additional formula: Save = 5 + (Level × 1). That can be an insane top of the scale, reserved for only the most dedicated to a skill.
Create some feats that allow for the acquisition of these saves. The first one (change good save to great save) should only be accessible at 1st level, & then further upgrades would require having that initial feat.
Lastly, the same principle could be applied to BAB. Great BAB = Level × 1.25, Amazing = Level × 1.5, Perfect BAB = Level × 1.75, & Sublime BAB = Level × 2.

Thoughts?

I like one and two. I had originally discarded (2) thinking that it would much too good, but the low- or no-magic scenario you posit would be the 'perfect' place to use it. (Pardon the pun.) I especially like the use of feats to up the save levels. As for BAB, I'm not a homebrewer, so I really don't know how useful they could be.

If anyone would be so kind as to create something with this, I wouldn't mind seeing it. :smallbiggrin:

Zeta Kai
11-10-2008, 01:21 AM
As for BAB, I'm not a homebrewer, so I really don't know how useful they could be.

If anyone would be so kind as to create something with this, I wouldn't mind seeing it. :smallbiggrin:

Well, here you go:

Optional BAB Progressions for a Low-Magic Campaign
Weak (½HD)|Average (¾HD)|Strong (1HD)|Great (1¼HD)|Amazing (1½HD)|Perfect (1¾HD)|Sublime (2HD)
+0|+0|+1|+1|+1|+1|+2
+1|+1|+2|+2|+3|+3|+4
+1|+2|+3|+3|+4|+5|+6/+1
+2|+3|+4|+5|+6/+1|+7/+2|+8/+3
+2|+3|+5|+6/+1|+7/+2|+8/+3|+10/+5
+3|+4|+6/+1|+7/+2|+9/+4|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2
+3|+5|+7/+2|+8/+3|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2|+14/+9/+4
+4|+6/+1|+8/+3|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2|+14/+9/+4|+16/+11/+6/+1
+4|+6/+1|+9/+4|+11/+6/+1|+13/+8/+3|+15/+10/+5|+18/+13/+8/+3
+5|+7/+2|+10/+5|+12/+7/+2|+15/+10/+5|+17/+12/+7/+2|+20/+15/+10/+5
+5|+8/+3|+11/+6/+1|+13/+8/+3|+16/+11/+6/+1|+19/+14/+9/+4|+22/+17/+12/+7
+6/+1|+9/+4|+12/+7/+2|+15/+10/+5|+18/+13/+8/+3|+21/+16/+11/+6|+24/+19/+14/+9
+6/+1|+9/+4|+13/+8/+3|+16/+11/+6/+1|+19/+14/+9/+4|+22/+17/+12/+7|+26/+21/+16/+11
+7/+2|+10/+5|+14/+9/+4|+17/+12/+7/+2|+21/+16/+11/+6|+24/+19/+14/+9|+28/+23/+18/+13
+7/+2|+11/+6/+1|+15/+10/+5|+18/+13/+8/+3|+22/+17/+12/+7|+26/+21/+16/+11|+30/+25/+20/+15
+8/+3|+12/+7/+2|+16/+11/+6/+1|+20/+15/+10/+5|+24/+19/+14/+9|+28/+23/+18/+13|+32/+27/+22/+17
+8/+3|+12/+7/+2|+17/+12/+7/+2|+21/+16/+11/+6|+25/+20/+15/+10|+29/+24/+19/+14|+34/+29/+24/+19
+9/+4|+13/+8/+3|+18/+13/+8/+3|+22/+17/+12/+7|+27/+22/+17/+12|+31/+26/+21/+16|+36/+31/+26/+21
+9/+4|+14/+9/+4|+19/+14/+9/+4|+23/+18/+13/+8|+28/+23/+18/+13|+33/+28/+23/+18|+38/+33/+28/+23
+10/+5|+15/+10/+5|+20/+15/+10/+5|+25/+20/+15/+10|+30/+25/+20/+15|+35/+30/+25/+20|+40/+35/+30/+25

KingRexII
11-10-2008, 10:27 AM
Well, here you go

*table snip*

No iterative attacks beyond four? It would interesting to see a fighter with five or more attacks in a round.

And I meant more an example of it being used in a homebrewed class or perhaps a modified core class. Just wanted to see how well better-than-good saves and BAB would look like on a balanced fighter or ranger and how they might stack up in a campaign.

Zeta Kai
11-10-2008, 10:37 AM
Iterative attacks were capped at 4 by the Epic Level Handbook (page 7), & I agree with their reasoning.

As for a class that actually uses these tables, well, it'd be best if the core classes were re-worked to fit a low/no-magic campaign.

Demented
11-10-2008, 10:01 PM
Oh, man, did I ever have fun with this.
Any excuse to use spreadsheets for something game-related. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, you want your Medium save to have a fraction of 0.4 (2/5).

Table:
|Poor|Medium|Good
1st|0|1|2
2nd|0|1|3
3rd|1|2|3
4th|1|2|4
5th|1|3|4
6th|2|3|5
7th|2|3|5
8th|2|4|6
9th|3|4|6
10th|3|5|7
11th|3|5|7
12th|4|5|8
13th|4|6|8
14th|4|6|9
15th|5|7|9
16th|5|7|10
17th|5|7|10
18th|6|8|11
19th|6|8|11
20th|6|9|12
{colsp=4}|
Base|0|1|2
Fraction|1/3|2/5|1/2

For better than Good saves, fractions of 2/3, 3/4, and 1 are good if you want to make it easy to predict how the saves grow. However, if you want a 12-15-18 pattern for the 20th level saves, the fractions would need to be 6/10, 7/10, 8/10 and so on. Unfortunately, the saves grow in more complicated patterns that way (but at least they're not as treacherous as 0.425 would get you).

Table:
|Good+|Good++|Good+++
1st|3|4|5
2nd|4|5|6
3rd|4|6|7
4th|5|7|8
5th|6|8|9
6th|6|8|9
7th|7|9|10
8th|7|10|11
9th|8|11|12
10th|9|11|13
11th|9|12|13
12th|10|12|14
13th|10|13|15
14th|11|13|16
15th|12|14|17
16th|12|15|17
17th|13|15|18
18th|13|16|19
19th|14|17|20
20th|15|18|21
{colsp=4}|
Base|3|4|5
Fraction|3/5|7/10|4/5