The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

Thread Twelve. We're going to put another dent into Thurbane's Monster Manual VI compilation of online monster articles. There's a lot though, so we probably won't finish it this thread.

If you're new here, you'll want to at least read through the "Clarification" section of the archive thread to get a feel for what we're doing.

On asterisk ratings:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inevitability

The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.

The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove

Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.

What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.

---

Please place your votes in bold. This isn't required, but it makes things easier on me when I go for the final counts.

And so the new thread starts with... pie.

---

Devil, Pie Fiend
https://i.imgur.com/Q84elde.png

Size & Type: Large Outsider (Baatezu, Lawful, Evil)
Face/Reach: 5'/10'
HD: 13, 21 (Huge)
Speed: 30', Fly 50' (Average)
Ability Scores: Str +14, Dex +2, Con +10, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +8 - Net +54, no penalties
Natural Armor: 18
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Wings (1d4) (Also worth mentioning that, while not a natural weapon, they often use rolling pins as Clubs.)
Skill List: Bluff, Concentration, Craft (Baking), Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Infernal, Celestial, Draconic), Telepathy (range unspecified)
CR: 14
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

Spoiler: Funny flavor text, taken ver batim

Show

Many sages remain skeptical that the dreaded pie fiend exists anywhere except in the fevered imaginations of people who fear the unknown. Accounts of these creatures' appearance and habits vary widely, probably because of their unmatched ability to disguise themselves as innocuous commoners (but perhaps because the skeptical sages are right to be skeptical).

Most sources agree that a pie fiend in its natural form resembles a hulking ape with a barrel chest, long arms, and vast bat-like wings. Its dark, shaggy fur is peppered with flecks of light-colored dust (bits of flour, some say). It wears no clothing except a tattered apron with many overloaded pockets, well spattered with variously colored stains. Waves of shimmering heat, along with the curiously pleasant scent of sweet spices and fresh pastry, often surround the creature.

These strange creatures have an affinity for baked goods of all sorts. They spend much of their time creating them and temping mortals with them. (A pie fiend's pies are invariably well made, but usually perilous to consume.) They also have a sweet tooth and can seldom resist swiping another baker's wares. A pie left cooling on a windowsill often tempts a pie fiend to pilfer it, and the pie fiend often leaves one of its own creations in place of the stolen confection.

Immunity to fire and poison, DR 5/-, and SR 26 make for a great chassis on top of those ability scores (and on a speech-capable humanoid shape to boot!).

It has a few good at-will SLAs, each at CL17 and with Charisma-based saves where applicable: Alter Self, Charm Person, Desecrate, Detect Good, Detect Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility, Magic Circle Against Good, Mage Hand, Major Image, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion, Greater Teleport (self plus 50lbs of objects), Unholy Aura, and Unhallow.

In addition to actual SLAs, the Pie Fiend has a few other at-will abilities that mostly mimic spells, such as Animate Pie (Animate Objects, but can animate up to thirteen Tiny or smaller objects at a time), and Heatwall (Wall of Fire, but colorless and transparent, and cold effects don't put it out). These are also CL17.

Once each day, the Pie Fiend can generate a compulsion that makes up to thirteen creatures within a 60' radius feel completely content for ten minutes. Creatures that fail the Charisma-based will save can take no actions as though dazed for the duration. Even those who save take a -2 penalty to Str and Dex for that time, and can't run or charge. Any attack against or damage dealt to an affected creature breaks the "not quite daze" effect prematurely, as if they had made their save. Despite being a Su ability, it can be dispelled as if it were a spell cast at CL17.

Its Make Into Pie ability functions three times per day. This power allows it to create a large thin sheet of pie crust that it can hurl up to 100' like a net. Each sheet can entangle a creature of up to Huge size. Entangled creatures can escape by attempting either a DC28 Escape Artist check or a DC34 Str check as a standard action. The dough has a hardness of 2 and 14 HP. It's immune to energy attacks, and actually traps heat inside of it. Any fire effects the creature inside is subjected to are maximized, "baking" the victim.

At will, the Fiend can conjure its namesake confection Easy as Pie. This ability is a free action, and the resulting food is delicious, nutritious, nonmagical (unless it makes one of its "special" pies) and safe to eat. They can be made from a variety of ingredients, such as fruits, meats, nuts, vegetables, or whatever else you might put in a pie or tart. Food won't be an issue with a Pie Fiend in your party. The pies will rot and decay just like any other food, but they're conjured fresh and ready to eat. The Pie Fiend can also use them as either a melee or ranged weapon (120' range) to deal 1d3+StrMod nonlethal damage.

In addition to ordinary pies, the Fiend has four types of special pies it can create. Each of these can be made up to seven times per day, with the exception of a Sinfully-Delicious Pie, which can be done once per day. Each of these (as well as making normal pies) is a Su ability.

A Sticky Pie does as the name implies, functioning as a tanglefoot bag. This pie is nonmagical, but dissolves in 2d6+13 rounds. (I'm unsure if it's supposed to be equal to HD or if it's flat and a coincidence.) A quart of alcohol or weak acid (such as vinegar) dissolves the pie immediately, freeing the creature trapped within.

The Pie Fiend can also make extremely hot or extremely cold pies. In addition to the nonlethal damage of a normal pie, these deal an additional 1d4+5 fire or cold damage on a successful hit. The bits of pie remain stuck to the target for 1d4 rounds, dealing its fire/cold damage each round or until a full-round action is taken to remove it. If not used immediately, the pie remains hot/cold for 2d4 rounds, after which it cools/warms and becomes a normal pie. Note that Hot and Cold Pies are separate abilities that can each be used seven times per day.

Finally, the Sinfully-Delicious Pie is a true masterpiece that sends living creatures into fits of ecstasy. This has a different effect based on the alignment of the ones who have so much as a taste of it. Good creatures feel the pie is so good that it must be a sin, causing them to feel extreme guilt that leads to a Confusion effect, while Evil creatures become giddy and start to dance and jump about as per Otto's Irresistible Dance. Neutral characters have a 50% chance of either effect. Both effects are CL17. These are mind-affecting compulsions, and can be avoided with a Charisma-based Will save. If not eaten immediately, the Sinfully-Delicious Pie remains potent for 1d4 hours before becoming just another ordinary pie.

This is absurd. So weird to see a creature casually get greater dispel magic at will, but treated as if doing 1d4+5 fire damage is anything.

Anyway, this is very good, but I'm not sure if it's positive LA good. Hard to judge creatures with so much HD when they don't very obviously suck.

Warlock is the closest comparison here, as many of the pie fiend's abilities also appear on the warlock invocation list. And this monster compares very favorably against warlock.

Aaaah, you love yourself some good April Fool's monsters (and some pies). I agree with Troacctid that this is most probably good enough for a LA. So many at-wills on an Outsider chassis with SR 13+HD and +18 NA is extremely good.

I'm not sure what's funnier; the entire concept, or that this thing is entirely capable of whupping the butts of overconfident or underprepared PCs.

Outsider skill points, the skill list and a couple SLAs make this fine as a party face. Greater dispel at will is nice, though I assume it's locked at CL 17 regardless of advancement. Major image can have some utility if you're inventive. Unholy aura and greater invis are nice party buffs, and the contentment effect could deflate one combat a day. I suppose anything with full BAB and +14 Strength can swing a sword. So there are some things the pie fiend can do even though its "signature" abilities all seem pretty useless at level 13. The ability scores, natural armor, fly speed, telepathy and immunities are all personally great to have, though the party wouldn't care as much. Greater teleport would be amazing if it could transport the party, but it's pretty questionable whether a party and its equipment could fit into a Type III bag of holding (which would leave the pie fiend only 15 pounds for its personal equipment outside the bag).

I think this critter would make some contribution in a high-level party, but frankly it lacks offense or even much BFC. It's mostly defensive, which doesn't win battles. Furthermore, I don't see a good base class to progress it as it levels up (maybe there's a great PrC out there?). I'm gonna put it on the same level as a sorcerer just getting their 7ths, which would be more fun and probably more effective but definitely harder to keep alive. LA +1 for me.

This monster is hilarious and I'd love to play one. That said, I'm not really sure where it can go as far as progression is concerned. A possibility would be Rogue, playing out the social skills and disguising SLA's as much as possible. The at-will Greater Invisibility is a cherry on top (of the pie! Got it?) to trigger sneak attacks reliably...including ranged sneak attacks by throwing pies!

But it's too powerful to not have an LA. These at-will Greater Dispel Magic but also Greater Teleport will at once dwarf the party casters, and its infiltration ability far outstrips what a rogue of equal level can do. I'd say it needs an LA of +2: this way, rogues can afford at that moment a Ring of Invisibility, which is a 15th-level item.

Pie fiend has a great entry in the Villains competition

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by remetagross

But it's too powerful to not have an LA. These at-will Greater Dispel Magic but also Greater Teleport will at once dwarf the party casters, and its infiltration ability far outstrips what a rogue of equal level can do. I'd say it needs an LA of +2: this way, rogues can afford at that moment a Ring of Invisibility, which is a 15th-level item.

---

While Greater Teleport is nothing to sneeze at the self +50lb really does nerf it quite a bit, without stuffing your team into a portable hole or such its not going to be that helpful. Sure it could save your party caster from having to use their spells for day to day party transport but they will still want to have it prepared as a last resort escape button. As far as Greater Dispel Magic goes to be honest I have never seen it nor dispel magic actually used in a game by a player in something like 20 years of play so yeah I see its usefulness in theory but sorry I don't value it very highly. Without sneak attack the value of being invisible is significantly nerfed, also by level 13 much less 15 a lot of encounters will have enemies with true seeing, in my experience maxed hide/move silently + dark stalker +HiPS is much more powerful at these levels than invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Even if you were to use the rest of your 5 to 7 levels for SA classes at most you would be looking at something like 5d6 SA which really isn't much by level 20.

Charm person, hold person, and for our more imaginative people Major Image are probably the real flour and butter for the Pie monkey; I suppose since you have it at will spamming greater dispel will be ok until you hit level 17 or 18. Besides That I would probably go more beatstick with the build maybe grab three levels of swashbuckler to get int to damage or something similar and look at trying to get wis or cha to damage too, dipping bard with snowflake war dance and unarmed swordsage comes to mind.

In the end by levels 13+ this really isn't that impressive and while I think it has enough going for it to be positive LA I am really not seeing anything here that would make me want to play this nor anything that is very powerful. Its a bit too all over the place and has no clear path forward, this seems like a pretty straightforward +0 LA.

I give him +1.

I agree. +1 from me.

I'll vote for LA +0, even if it does verge on a +1. I think it's very good at level 13, but the lack of a progression path that really builds on what it can do becomes an issue quite fast. I can see +1, sure, but I think +0 could still work, and I'd rather vote lower when I can see either case.

Mmmh, how does this compare to a ice devil? That one has 14 RHD and got LA +2.

In hindsight of that, giving this one LA +0 feels a bit on the low side, but perhabs that's more a symptom of the assignment thread evolution?

Pie for thoughts

Ice Devil
Size & Type: Large Outsider (Lawful, Evil)
Face/Reach: 5'/10'
HD: 14, 29 (Huge)
Speed: 40'
Ability Scores: Str +12, Dex +10, Con +12, Int +12, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +68, no penalties
Natural Armor: 18
Natural Weapons: Two Primary claws (1d10), Bite (2d6), Tail (3d6)
Skill List: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any three), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Infernal, Celestial, Draconic), Telepathy (range unspecified)
CR: 13
WotC LA: -

DR 10/good, Immunity Fire and Poison, Res 10 acid and cold, Regeneration 5, Spell Res 25.
SLAs: At will Cone of Cold, Fly, Ice Storm, Greater Teleport, Persistent Image, Unholy Aura, Wall of Ice; CL 13 Cha based DCs; Summon Devil
Slow: anything hit with spear or tail must make a DC 23 Fort Save or be slowed for 1d6 rounds.
Fear Aura: 10' radius DC 22 Will Save for be effected by cl 13 fear aura, 24 immunity for anything succeeding the save.

So between its natural speed and at will fly sla Ice devil has better movement; Ice devil is a veritable meat blender strongly supported by regen 5 and good AC, DR and SR; the SLAs are a bit of a mixed bag as a primary melee Ice devil's spells are more useful Ice wall and persistent image for some BFC and cone of cold for some blasting. However, Pie fiend's selection tends to be a bit better as debuffer (dispell) and SoL (charm and hold person) with lesser BFC between Major Image and Heatwall. Greater Teleport is actually more powerful for the Ice Devil than the Pie Fiend, since it adds a more BFC to the Ice Devil since it is a larger threat on the battlefield and adds extra mobility.
The really big difference I see is Ice Devil is a real melee threat with some useful SLAs to back it up and some pretty obvious paths that add a lot of power to it, just simply getting a few levels of totemist, Warblade, swordsage, or any number of PRCs does a lot to keep Ice Devil very powerful and relevant.
On the other hand going against nonhumanoids and things immune to mind affecting effects does a lot to nerf the Pie fiend, and at level 13+ most of the Pie Fiends pie related abilities are already useless. Furthermore, there aren't any clear and useful paths for the Pie Fiend.
I personally Think the Ice Devil is probably a high +1 but its still fine at +2. The Pie Fiend seems competitive at level 13-14 but at 15+ it really starts falling off in usefulness. If we start the Pie Fiend at +2 LA to be frank it is no longer competitive with the rest of a decently optimized level 15 party and only competitive with a pretty low op group.

I'm gonna throw my hate in with the +0 LA crowd. Though I don't think +1 is unreasonable. Any higher than +1 seems far too high to me.

Official vote from me is bolded. This is just for clarification.

Let's compare this to a level 18 warlock.

A level 18 warlock has fourteen invocations (two dark, three each of least, lesser, and greater, plus eldritch blast 8d6 and detect magic) and +13 BAB. With a base 14 Con and Int, he has 101 HP and 84 skill points. His class gives him DR 4, two energy resistances at 5 each, limited fast healing, and a total of +4 to his ability scores.

Here is the standard recommended set of invocations from my Warlockopedia.

Least: eldritch glaive, darkness, sickening blast, (detect magic, eldritch blast)
Lesser: fell flight, voracious dispelling, eldritch chain
Greater: chilling tentacles, vitriolic blast, enervating darkness
Dark: dark foresight, path of shadow

Okay, let's compare this to the pie fiend. She has +13 BAB, and with a base of 14 Con and Int, she has 153 HP and 345 skill points. She has DR 5 and is immune to fire and poison. She also has a total of +54 to her ability scores. Here's a breakdown of her invocations, based on the grade I think they would be assigned, or marked with * if the ability actually exists as a warlock invocation already.

Least: see in darkness*, easy as pie, desecrate, detect good, detect magic*, hypnotic pattern, mage hand
Lesser: Large size, fly speed 50 ft*, telepathy, alter self, charm person*, hold person, magic circle against good, major image, pyrotechnics, waves of contentment
Greater: natural armor +18, SR 26, animate pie, heatwall*, make into pie, greater dispel magic*, suggestion*, unhallow
Dark: greater invisibility*, greater teleport, unholy aura

So, comparing the two. The pie fiend has much stronger invocations at the lesser and greater grades, and pretty damn good ones at dark. I would estimate that in invocations alone, she's easily equivalent to a warlock of at least 16th level, and honestly stacks up pretty well against even a 20th level warlock. Yeah, her dark invocations aren't quite as good, but all those extra greater invocations more than make up for it. She also has incredible ability score bonuses, and even with the default all 10s array, her stats dwarf those of any normal PC. Meanwhile, the warlock has more consistent damage thanks to his 8d6 vitriolic blast, which can be expected to consistently produce about 91 DPR with eldritch glaive against a single target, or about 98 DPR with eldritch chain spread across four targets. The pie fiend can probably full attack with a greatsword and wings for about 6d6+2d4+50ish? damage if everything hits, which isn't bad, but I'd bet it's not as consistent at this level as the laser beam touch attacks, even with the extra accuracy from the higher Strength.

All in all, if you took away that big pile of raw stats, I think a 13 HD pie fiend is about equivalent to a level 16 warlock. Once you add on the extra +50 to ability scores, she's honestly probably on par with a level 20 warlock. Like, being real here, do y'all realize that even if you slapped a whopping +7 LA on the pie fiend, she still has better HP, saves, and skill points than a level 20 warlock, despite having 7 fewer HD? Outsider hit dice are whack.

I don't know how some of you have come up with +0 or +1 LA. I'd put it at +4 LA and I think that's being very generous. Even with +5, it would still be playable, IMO. "But where is it supposed to progress from here?" Who cares? It's already on par with a 20th level character. It is the endgame.

Now, the warlock has the eldritch blast that can be easily quickened, or improved with one or two invocations. They can also PrC or multiclass, and their abilities have much more synergy (or possible synergy) than the abilities of a Pie Fiend.

That said, there are a lot of abilities. More than 10+HD SR, more than HD in natural armor, the ability to always be surrounded by Unholy Aura, to Greater Dispel with a level much higher than his own, obviously Greater Teleport, which is hard to get except for full casters, and being able to Suggestion at-will is great in fights that last more than a few rounds and in a lot of social situations.

What the Pie Fiend doesn't have in offense (it doesn't have a lot to face non-humanoid foes beyond just hitting them with a stick), it more than makes up for with defense (you really can't overstate how hard SR 28, 18 natural armor before items is hard to pass around CR15) and utility. I feel like that's a solid LA+2. Maybe not three, but definitely not +0 in my opinion.

Where are people getting "10/13+HD" for the spell resistance? SR is just listed as 26, and nowhere does it say it scales.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Debatra

Where are people getting "10/13+HD" for the spell resistance? SR is just listed as 26, and nowhere does it say it scales.

---

Because, especially for high-powered monsters like this one, most players will probably play it at its ECL or very slightly higher. There really aren't that many campaigns (or one-shots, for that matter) that go up to 20 and stay at 20 for a significant amount of time before the end of the campaign. That's why, in general, I want the monster to be playable at its ECL, or at its ECL+1, even if it becomes abit weaker after a few levels (since, for the majority of monsters, the bonuses they give don't scale up as well as class levels), rather than it being overpowered when it is introduced but being balanced for ECL 20.

In that regard, what's important is comparing its initial SR with the caster level of the spellcasters it is likely to encounter at its minimum ECL, which is basically SR-HD with a small additive constant. In the Pie Fiend's case, if you give it LA+1, it has SR 26 in an ECL 14 environment. That's only 40% for enemy casters to affect it, or more likely even less, since boss monsters often have a caster level below their CR. That is hard to affect and should definitely weigh in the balance.

There's that vest in the PHB2 that raises innate SR though, that'd be great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by liquidformat

As far as Greater Dispel Magic goes to be honest I have never seen it nor dispel magic actually used in a game by a player in something like 20 years of play so yeah I see its usefulness in theory but sorry I don't value it very highly.

---

I have played a Wilder in a campaign spamming Dispel Psionics 3 MLs above the party's ECL thanks to Wild Surge. It is an extremely consistent and useful ability to have. I do value it very highly from experience.

I vote LA +2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by remetagross

I have played a Wilder in a campaign spamming Dispel Psionics 3 MLs above the party's ECL thanks to Wild Surge. It is an extremely consistent and useful ability to have. I do value it very highly from experience.

---

And the pit fiend can quite easily max out its Greater Dispel with one ioun stone and two magic tattoos. Honestly, dispel spam can disable quite a lot of encounters all on its own. Especially if you take Arcane Mastery, you can basically automatically dispel or counter one spell per round.

Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?

Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku

Edit: I'm not sure, does Reactive Counterspell work with Dispel Magic?

---

I don't see why not.

I'm inclined to agree with Troacctid, this thing is really strong, though I'm a little more inclined to be generous, and give this thing +3 LA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danielxcutter

Er this is a PIE fiend not a pit fiend.

---

Oh, yeah, nothing to do with each other. I don't know what came over me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tzardok

I don't see why not.

---

Then I am going to quote my favorite Magic:the Gathering flavor text:

"Masters of the arcane savor a delicious irony. Their study of deep and complex arcana leads to such a simple end: the ability to say merely yes or no."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Troacctid

Greater: natural armor +18, SR 26, animate pie, heatwall*, make into pie, greater dispel magic*, suggestion*, unhallow

---

How are Animate Pie and Make into Pie Greater invocations?
Animate pie allows you to animate up to 13 tiny objects for 17 rounds each only has 1/2d10 at this level that ability is fluff and is at most a Least invocation though I don't think it is even worth taking/using as a least invocation.

Make into pie while it isn't horrible I don't think it quite compares with Greater invocations; also it is only useable 3/day just that fact alone it should drop it down to lesser if not least.

Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by liquidformat

Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?

---

Isn't that what it officially is, ruleswise speaking?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by liquidformat

Make into pie while it isn't horrible I don't think it quite compares with Greater invocations; also it is only useable 3/day just that fact alone it should drop it down to lesser if not least.

---

I'd argue that it disqualifies it completely. Invocations are by definition at-will, regardless of their power level. (Mutatis mutandis, the same applies to Waves of Contentment as well. No, a 1/day Su ability is not the equivalent of an invocation, nor is it analogous to one.)

Quote:

---

Also why are you listing eldritch blast as a least invocation, isn't that significantly undervaluing it?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tzardok

Isn't that what it officially is, ruleswise speaking?

---

Nope. Eldritch Blast resembles an invocation, but it's explicitly not one.

It's quite the chassis, but I value progression higher in the 10s range.
I vote for +1, at ECL 14 it is a pile of useful things with very little direction so I imagine it dipping lots of frontloaded classes to try to keep up with non-monstrous PCs reaching their PRCs capstones.