opinions on this planar shepherd houserule

I, as a DM, really like the "feel" of the planar shepherd class and want my players to have the option of exploring it, but there's two main abilities that people say are broken:

1. make a bubble that has the properties of another plane, for hours/level. The main thing people have said is broken with this is planes with time traits, since those planes are pretty much always broken, but I'm not sure I agree. For one thing, I do run my own campaign setting with its own cosmology, so if they wanted a time plane it would have some other effects they probably wouldn't like. It also just doesn't seem that strong to basically have both you and whatever you're fighting be in a time stop compared to the outside world. I'm sure there's some cheese, like there is for everything, but considering a relatively standard use-case, is there something I'm missing that makes this so broken?

2. Being able to wildshape into outsiders native to the plane. The big one here is getting SLAs: WHY IN THE NINE HELLS DO YOU GET SLAS? No other polymorph-based ability that I know of gives you those, even Epic ones! I've houseruled it so it works like Shapechange, where you get Ex and Su but not SLAs. I know that a shapechange effect as early as level 14 may be quite strong, but at least it's not 3/day efreet wish.

What do you think? I am very much seeking input on everything I've said here. I also do know that even with this, planar shepherd is still just better than taking druid levels, since it stacks with everything you care about, but is it inherently broken anymore?

The very first problem with Planar Shepherd is that the druid base class gets three different and independent very strong abilities, animal companion, wildshape, and spellcasting. All other druid prestige classes advance at most two of them (plus give some other benefit) and leave the third aside, or sometimes give an improved version of one of them, at the cost of little or no advancement in the other two (such as Beast Master focusing on animal companions without the wildshape or spellcasting, or Master of Many Forms focusing on wildshape without the companion or spellcasting). Planar Shepherd not only gives full advancement of all three, it gives improved versions of two of them. Even without SLAs, planar shepherd gives access to Outsider forms, which is one strong benefit, and gives you supernatural abilities and non-attack extraordinary abilities, which is another strong benefit.

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It also just doesn't seem that strong to basically have both you and whatever you're fighting be in a time stop compared to the outside world. I'm sure there's some cheese, like there is for everything, but considering a relatively standard use-case, is there something I'm missing that makes this so broken?

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One very simple and obvious use case is fighting something at a greater range than the range of the planar bubble, so you're in the bubble but your enemy isn't. Or you and the entire rest of your party. And while time traits are probably the most broken, you can also get some serious cheese with magic traits, and even things like positive/negative/elemental traits can be pretty strong, especially since you're immune to most of the dangerous traits of your plane. Positive, for instance, gives free healing for your entire party up to twice their normal HP maximum (and then they just need to make sure to keep their distance from you so they don't explode).

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Originally Posted by Chronos

The very first problem with Planar Shepherd is that the druid base class gets three different and independent very strong abilities, animal companion, wildshape, and spellcasting. All other druid prestige classes advance at most two of them (plus give some other benefit) and leave the third aside, or sometimes give an improved version of one of them, at the cost of little or no advancement in the other two (such as Beast Master focusing on animal companions without the wildshape or spellcasting, or Master of Many Forms focusing on wildshape without the companion or spellcasting).

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Yes, I know about that, and how it makes planar shepherd as close as you can get to objecttively better than just taking levels of druid.

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Planar Shepherd not only gives full advancement of all three, it gives improved versions of two of them. Even without SLAs, planar shepherd gives access to Outsider forms, which is one strong benefit, and gives you supernatural abilities and non-attack extraordinary abilities, which is another strong benefit.

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Fair enough. Should I also remove the ability to get Su and/or Ex unless you use that feat that gives Su or the spell that gives Ex?

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One very simple and obvious use case is fighting something at a greater range than the range of the planar bubble, so you're in the bubble but your enemy isn't. Or you and the entire rest of your party.

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Huh, I thought it would be like time stop in that you can’t attack things in a different timestream.

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And while time traits are probably the most broken, you can also get some serious cheese with magic traits, and even things like positive/negative/elemental traits can be pretty strong, especially since you're immune to most of the dangerous traits of your plane. Positive, for instance, gives free healing for your entire party up to twice their normal HP maximum (and then they just need to make sure to keep their distance from you so they don't explode).

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I think the magic trait cheese is mitigated by having my own cosmology — i have not, at least not yet, made any planes with free metamagic or such. That’s what magic traits do, right? Been a while since I read that section.

Twice the HP maximum?? Okay, that’s… wow. …maybe my version of the positive energy plane only heals up to normal HP. I guess the standard balancing factor is that the bubble (as far as i know) is stationary, so you could get removed from it and/or your opponent could move into it.

In a world where most people think the only proper way to play the game is by playing a damn near TO Wizard ... why nerf Planar Sheperd? Incantatrix? Circle Magic, Shapechange, Polymorph, PAO, Alter Self, Wish?

My concern is once you start nerfing things, where do you stop?

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Originally Posted by lylsyly

In a world where most people think the only proper way to play the game is by playing a damn near TO Wizard ... why nerf Planar Sheperd? Incantatrix? Circle Magic, Shapechange, Polymorph, PAO, Alter Self, Wish?

My concern is once you start nerfing things, where do you stop?

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That’s… not what most people think? At least not at my table. The main player looking at planar shepherd is doing so because it fits his character’s lore connected to the feywild.

As for why nerf planar shepherd, it’s because I don’t want my players to have 3/day wish at level 14. Simple as that.

He would get 3 wishes from efreeti only if he'd choose the plane of fire, to nerf planar sheperd just talk to your player and find or homebrew a plane you both find acceptable.

Recently played in a group where we had 2 planar shepherds, honestly I think we kept things relatively calm. I was a LE wildshape planar ranger planar shepherd of the 9 hells, and the other guy was a druid planar sphere of mechanus. Admittedly we were very strong, but our dm never nerfed us, what he did do was put a % chance that while we were wildshaping there was a chance that one of the outsiders we were turning into might notice and disapprove of how we were using our powers granted from their forms. So to give an example of how you are afraid of free wishes, if an efreet notices that your players are fake efreets abusing wishes he might report back to the grand efreet what is happening and their could be in game consequences for abusing said powers. Alternatively, just talk with your players and say hey: No free wishes, or at least limit the wishes they do, and remember anything the players can do the npcs can do and likely have already done before. So if the player really wants the game to devolve into wish wars they will likely lose.

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Originally Posted by yeetusmcgeetus

That’s… not what most people think? At least not at my table. The main player looking at planar shepherd is doing so because it fits his character’s lore connected to the feywild.

As for why nerf planar shepherd, it’s because I don’t want my players to have 3/day wish at level 14. Simple as that.

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Then there's no problem, is there? The player is not an optimizer, are they? If your player wants the Feywild, let them have the Feywild. It's not an excessively powerful plane, and it mostly has fey instead of outsiders and elementals. If they weren't a problem as a druid, I cannot see them becoming a problem as a planar shepherd. And since they seem reasonable, never forget that talking to people in real life is always more effective than talking to people on the internet, and that you are the DM and have the final say on mechanics if it improves the quality of your game.
"I noticed you were going for PS. Let's work together to find a plane that corresponds to your character, and I'll tell you what are the traits you could gain from a planar bubble of it, what magical beasts and what outsiders you could have access to."
"Hey, I noticed you kind of destroyed all the encounters during last session. That was really cool on the moment, but I fear it will overshadow the other players in the long run. I am going to ask you not to use that form again/to nerf the Wild Shape to work as Shapechange instead."

To add onto the above, you shouldn't worry about Planar Shepard hysteria. People get psyched up about it because it's almost as strong as a single wizard 7 spell. It's really cool and fun, but unless you have a specific point of concern, you shouldn't actually need to nerf it.

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Originally Posted by Pezzo

He would get 3 wishes from efreeti only if he'd choose the plane of fire, to nerf planar sheperd just talk to your player and find or homebrew a plane you both find acceptable.

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Right, but diagetically, if planar shepherd exists, then there would be the potential for such a character to exist in the setting, and if the DM doesn't want to have to explain why said character hasn't taken over the world with free wish spam, they want to nerf this class to patch the narrative hole.

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Originally Posted by lylsyly

In a world where most people think the only proper way to play the game is by playing a damn near TO Wizard [most people don't think that]... why nerf Planar Sheperd? Incantatrix? Circle Magic, Shapechange, Polymorph, PAO, Alter Self, Wish?

My concern is once you start nerfing things, where do you stop?

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you stop at a level you are comfortable with. you nerf things on a build-by-build basis. i've been doing it all the time, and it worked well.

the alternative is to allow whatever level of mad power the players can grasp, and watch as the whole worldbuilding and premise for the campaign crash down before inconsistent power levels.
and then they'll be unsatisfied with the campaign. rightly so. and it will be your fault. as dm you have to act as ultimate referee, and a referee that allows everything is not doing anyone any favor.

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Originally Posted by Crake

Right, but diagetically, if planar shepherd exists, then there would be the potential for such a character to exist in the setting, and if the DM doesn't want to have to explain why said character hasn't taken over the world with free wish spam, they want to nerf this class to patch the narrative hole.

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Thank you! Yeah, I’m not super worried about my players abusing it, but I just don’t like to leave abusable things unaddressed.

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Quoth yeetusmcgeetus:

Huh, I thought it would be like time stop in that you can’t attack things in a different timestream.

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Well... maybe? Even aside from the power imbalance, bubbles of time-trait planes are broken in the sense that nobody really has any idea how they're supposed to work. You certainly could rule that way, and it would rein in the worst abuse, but being able to sequester different parts of the battlefield from each other is also a very strong ability.

I've personally nerfed the class by removing animal companion progression, making it an 8/10 casting class (levels 4 and 8), and adding a disclaimer that any ability that mimics a spell that has an xp cost component would have that component (I've just done this in general for any magically acquired abilities).

As for planar bubble, it doesn't move with the caster. For planes that have a different flow of time it's best to just use the time stop rules across the boundary. As for magic traits, determine the effect at the point of origin and for spells that have a duration, they lose or gain the effect of the metamagic as they enter or leave the bubble (time passes normally so a persisted spell will end if it's normal duration is over if you leave the bubble.)

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Originally Posted by Chronos

Positive, for instance, gives free healing for your entire party up to twice their normal HP maximum (and then they just need to make sure to keep their distance from you so they don't explode).

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Is this an eberron thing? Because the DMG doesn't have this trait.

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Originally Posted by Chronos

Well... maybe? Even aside from the power imbalance, bubbles of time-trait planes are broken in the sense that nobody really has any idea how they're supposed to work. You certainly could rule that way, and it would rein in the worst abuse, but being able to sequester different parts of the battlefield from each other is also a very strong ability.

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The bubble is duration concentration + 1d10 rounds and you only get one per day until 10th level. It doesn’t have a range and it doesn't move with you. It's honestly more clunky than people give it credit for.

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Originally Posted by King of Nowhere

you stop at a level you are comfortable with. you nerf things on a build-by-build basis. i've been doing it all the time, and it worked well.

the alternative is to allow whatever level of mad power the players can grasp, and watch as the whole worldbuilding and premise for the campaign crash down before inconsistent power levels.
and then they'll be unsatisfied with the campaign. rightly so. and it will be your fault. as dm you have to act as ultimate referee, and a referee that allows everything is not doing anyone any favor.

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I've also found that players will generally do their best to make sure they fit in with the rest of the group in terms of power. In the rare time that someone is overpowered, they're usually more than willing to work out with the DM how to rework their character to a more appropriate level, whether that conversation is instigated by the player or the DM.

I've never had a problem with someone being overpowered and refusing to do anything about it. Whomever I've had at the table has understood that being too OP is not fun for other players or the DM, or at the very least, their OP strats can be used against them as required.

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Originally Posted by pabelfly

I've also found that players will generally do their best to make sure they fit in with the rest of the group in terms of power. In the rare time that someone is overpowered, they're usually more than willing to work out with the DM how to rework their character to a more appropriate level, whether that conversation is instigated by the player or the DM.

I've never had a problem with someone being overpowered and refusing to do anything about it. Whomever I've had at the table has understood that being too OP is not fun for other players or the DM, or at the very least, their OP strats can be used against them as required.

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My experience too. but additionally, this may be a quirk of my table, most of my players are skilled enough to powergame - with help from internet builds - but not skilled enough to really gauge their power level. so I still have to step in and set limits. another one could limit himself if he had too, but he explicitly said that he prefer for me to set boundaries so that he can powergame as much as he can within those boundaries.
most players are more than happy to leave the hard task of balancing for the table to someone more skilled than they are

I have several thoughts on this matter.

Regarding the planar bubble.... while I do agree w/ time variant traits it's horribly broken... It's still less broken than what a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Cleric with the actual Planar Bubble spell can do, since the Planar Shepherd's is concentration-limited. People really underestimate how limiting that is. I straight up never once used it, being able to do stuff on my turn was too important.
So yes, it's fine and rational to reign in the abuse of it, just keep in mind what others can do w/ the actual spell and handle that, too.

Regarding the outsider wild shape... Yes, SLA access is really strong, probably too strong. Removing their access is reasonable, in my opinion. I just want to point out a few things:
1) Aside from planar bubble abuse, this is basically the only class feature actually worth being in the class for
2) The earliest you get it is level 14, a mere 3 levels before any full caster can access Shapechange, which (if you remove the SLAs) is basically outsider WS except with vastly more form options and the ability to swap around between them every round. Which is still really nice to basically get it early entry "lesser" Shapechange, just putting things into perspective. And if you completely ban Shapechange (rather than allowing it or nerfing it), I have no idea why you're allowing Planar Shepherd in the same game.
3) It does cost 2 WS uses, so if you are removing SLAs I'd suggest making it cost 1 use? If that's strong at 14, it will literally not matter within 3 levels...

I played a Druid/Planar Shepherd from level 5 to 14 (same game as Yogi, above) and while the end result was awesome, the path there was painful and there were many times I would've been far better off w/ poison immunity, plant WS (without needing an extra Enhance WS slot to get to the immunities, at least), even a thousand faces to deal with dicey social situations... during levels where I did not really have much to show for my Planar Shepherd levels.

Yes, Druids get actual class features beyond spells. But their casting options are generally weaker than (or at least less front-loaded than) Cleric and far weaker than Wiz/Sorc. A Druid only advancing their casting taking a PrC is inherently weaker than the other 3 doing the same. And while Druids have one broken PrC, there's like a dozen or more equally or more broken ones for the other 3.
None of this is to bemoan that Druid is "weak" or anything, nothing of the sort. I just dislike the rhetoric that just b/c a PrC advances WS and animal companion that's somehow makes it too good. I think it means Druid is one of the better designed full casters and the others shouldn't have been made so front-loaded and/or with such strong arrays of spells that you can just pick up and take with you to any PrC that advances casting and get nothing but Win.

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Quoth Darg:

Is this an eberron thing? Because the DMG doesn't have this trait.

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It's the major positive dominant thing, scroll up a bit on that page:

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Major positive-dominant planes go even further. A creature on a major positive-dominant plane must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being blinded for 10 rounds by the brilliance of the surroundings. Simply being on the plane grants fast healing 5 as an extraordinary ability. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These temporary hit points fade 1d20 rounds after the creature leaves the major positive-dominant plane. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it.

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Though I did fail to remember the part about the temp HP fading a minute or two after leaving: That makes it a little harder to break (though you still can, by just hitting yourself or something when you get close to the danger point).

(and fun little dysfunction: Undead, by RAW, not only get the benefits of this, but they DON'T need to worry about exploding. The undead should love the positive energy plane!)