Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMII Update Booklet
Spellstitched Creature: Undead; 5 ft./5 ft.; 1–3 HD: 5/silver, 4–7 HD: 5/magic, 8–11 HD: 5/magic silver, 12+ HD: 10/magic silver; (see ghast in the Monster Manual:) Balance +7, Climb +9, Hide +8, Jump +9, Move Silently +8, Spot +8; Multiattack, Toughness; LA —; Note that the ghast is significantly changed in the Monster Manual. Reapply this template to the revised ghast or any other corporeal undead creature.
So just like Half Golems they are unusable by PCs.
Thought I'd mention it since I see a lot of people recommend it.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
AFB so can't confirm LA- but Libris Mortis has the latest revision of spellstitched not the update booklet for MMII so you should be referencing that...
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
liquidformat
AFB so can't confirm LA- but Libris Mortis has the latest revision of spellstitched not the update booklet for MMII so you should be referencing that...
Common misconception actually, the 3.5 version of spellstitched is in Complete Arcane. LM merely references it in a table, the MMII version specifically, although that's purely because CA came out a month after LM.
The sample Spellstitched in CA has a LA: -, but so does the base Ghast, so that's nothing to go by. The template itself has no LA entry, just a CR one.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
liquidformat
AFB so can't confirm LA- but Libris Mortis has the latest revision of spellstitched not the update booklet for MMII so you should be referencing that...
The only mention of Spellstitched Undead in Libris Mortis is a table saying it's printed in MM2 and is a template. Perhaps you were confusing it with Evolved Undead?
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
The definition of level adjustment in the glossary describes how the presence of such an entry in a statblock (when it's a number instead of -) means the creature is available as an option to players:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Level adjustment
Certain monsters can used as the basis for interesting, viable player characters. These creatures have a level adjustment entry, which is a number that is added to the creature's total Hit Dice to arrive at its effective character level. A creature with multiple special abilities is more powerful as a player character than its Hit Dice alone would indicate. For example, a drow elf has spell resistance, bonuses to its ability scores, and spell-like abilities. Its level adjustment of +2 indicates that a 1st-level drow wizard is the equivalent of a 3rd-level character. [...]
As spellstitched (CA) lacks such an entry, it's by default equivalent to a LA - template. So yeah, spellstitched necropolitan PCs shouldn't be a thing.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Uncle Pine
The definition of level adjustment in the glossary describes how the presence of such an entry in a statblock (when it's a number instead of -) means the creature is available as an option to players:
As spellstitched (CA) lacks such an entry, it's by default equivalent to a LA - template. So yeah, spellstitched necropolitan PCs shouldn't be a thing.
Except thats for monsters not templates.
Templates have the clause "Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature.""
So if a template doesn't have an LA entry it defaults to effectively "Same as base creature" or +0.
And as Jowgen pointed out the ghast has an LA of - so even a ghast with a template that specifically has a LA would still have LA of -.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Uncle Pine
As spellstitched (CA) lacks such an entry, it's by default equivalent to a LA - template. So yeah, spellstitched necropolitan PCs shouldn't be a thing.
Actually by how templates work, if it doesn't list a value, it does not change the value. Therefore, since it lacks an LA entry, it does not modify LA.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jowgen
Common misconception actually, the 3.5 version of spellstitched is in Complete Arcane. LM merely references it in a table, the MMII version specifically, although that's purely because CA came out a month after LM.
The sample Spellstitched in CA has a LA: -, but so does the base Ghast, so that's nothing to go by. The template itself has no LA entry, just a CR one.
Huh, it seems you're right. The update was addressing the ghast, not the template.
Since CA is the most recent printing it is the one we use, and since it doesn't have an LA entry, as Silva Stormrage and torrasque666 said it defaults to "Same as base creature".
Nevermind! Sorry for the false alarm. >.<
I thought the template gave bonuses to those skills and wasn't talking about the Ghast since it says re-apply the template.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jowgen
Common misconception actually, the 3.5 version of spellstitched is in Complete Arcane. LM merely references it in a table, the MMII version specifically, although that's purely because CA came out a month after LM.
The sample Spellstitched in CA has a LA: -, but so does the base Ghast, so that's nothing to go by. The template itself has no LA entry, just a CR one.
Well I knew it showed up some other place besides that update booklet...
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Two common schools of thought (and both have some RAW support):
1. No listed LA effectively equals LA +0 (many 3.0 templates had no listed LA; less common in 3.5, but it still happens - Unseelie fey, I'm looking at you!).
2. No listed LA effectively equals LA --, and is not usable by PCs.
Either way, check with your DM. Unless you want every PC to be running around with the Paragon Creature template for free, I'd lean towards option 2 (although I have a nagging feeling Paragon got a listed LA somewhere?).
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thurbane
(although I have a nagging feeling Paragon got a listed LA somewhere?).
Paragon Mindflayer ECL: 26 (ELH p.156)
Mindflayer ECL: 15 (MMI p.187)
26-15=11
Paragon Template LA:11
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thurbane
Two common schools of thought (
and both have some RAW support):
1. No listed LA effectively equals LA +0 (
many 3.0 templates had no listed LA; less common in 3.5, but it still happens - Unseelie fey, I'm looking at you!).
2. No listed LA effectively equals LA --, and is not usable by PCs.
Either way, check with your DM. Unless you want every PC to be running around with the
Paragon Creature template for free, I'd lean towards option 2 (
although I have a nagging feeling Paragon got a listed LA somewhere?).
Epic player's handbook update booklet
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silva Stormrage
Except thats for monsters not templates.
Templates have the clause "Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature.""
So if a template doesn't have an LA entry it defaults to effectively "Same as base creature" or +0.
And as Jowgen pointed out the ghast has an LA of - so even a ghast with a template that specifically has a LA would still have LA of -.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
torrasque666
Actually by how templates work, if it doesn't list a value, it does not change the value. Therefore, since it lacks an LA entry, it does not modify LA.
Interesting, I guess I had never connected the dots between that clause and LA. That surely opens up some interesting combinations, thank you both for your clarification.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete Arcane p.161
Spellstitched creatures can be created only by a wizard or sorcerer with the Craft Wondrous Item feat and of sufficient level to cast the spells to be imbued within the undead’s body. The creation process takes a number of days equal to the Wisdom score of the undead creature being spellstitched (so a minimum of 10 days) and requires the expenditure of 1,000 gp for carving or tattooing materials in addition to 500 XP × the undead creature’s Wisdom score.
So from this we know
1. Spellstitched Undead costs only 1000gp
2. You don't need to know the spells to be stitched. You only need to be of sufficient level.
This is pretty amazing on sorcerers who can spellstitch themselves.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thurbane
1. No listed LA effectively equals LA +0 (many 3.0 templates had no listed LA; less common in 3.5, but it still happens - Unseelie fey, I'm looking at you!).
Templates in 3.0 didn't have listed LA because LA wasn't a thing until the 3.5 update. You can see in the Monster Manual v3.0 (or the 3.0 SRD, none of the templates have level adjustments. Would be pretty weird if they had a value for a mechanic that didn't exist at the time.
Re: Spellstitched Undead are LA:-
No, LA is a thing is 3.25, stuff that is near the release of 3.5 like Savage Species.
However, most 3.0 stuff does not have LA.
The only other 3.0 book (other than Forgotten Realms Books) with Level Adjustment is Fiend Folio, If I Recall Correctly.
Edit: The definition of LA says that the absence of LA means the LA is so large the ECL is more than 20 ( aka at least 21 ). It could be higher.
