Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
"providing light equal to that of a candle."
Since the light is the same as that of a nonmagical object, it interacts with darkness spells the same way, including losing to even a low-level Darkness spell.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
It doesn't say "spells with the light descriptor", it says "light spells". So as Holy Star is a higher level spell which provides a light, it wins.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
Holy Star is a 7th level spell. Unless the Darkness was Heightened to 7th+ level, Holy Star should win.
If you're worried about Darkness, just hire an NPC spellcaster to put Heightened Continual Flame on an item or even on your hair. If you can find a high enough level cleric or wizard with Earth Spell, that would count as a 10th level spell with a significantly higher caster level (and thus dispel DC) for a price that's still very reasonable. If it's heightened to 10th level this way, it would completely overpower any darkness effect of 9th level or lower. If it's on your hair you could just wear a hat over it to hide it when needed.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
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Originally Posted by
Biggus
It doesn't say "spells with the light descriptor", it says "light spells". So as Holy Star is a higher level spell which provides a light, it wins.
This is my take as well.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
But that's what descriptors are for. A light spell is a spell with the light descriptor. That's how you tell what spells are light spells. Spells like Holy Star and Wall of Fire can create light, but since they don't have the [light] descriptor, they're nonetheless not light spells.
The upside of this, meanwhile, is that darkness spells (of any level) also don't stop any of the non-light effects of Holy Star.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
It truly is amazing how fireballs are completely invisible in normal absolute darkness. It's not a light spell so it couldn't possibly give off light to be seen.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
I believe this is another situation in which the Rules as Written simply don't explain everything, so that the dungeon master has to make a judgement call.
As I interpret the description of the Darkness spell, there are three separate categories of light sources mentioned. On page of the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK v. 3.5, we read the following.
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Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level (such as light or dancing lights). Higher-level light spells (such as daylight) are not affected by darkness.
The three categories (as I understand them) are:
1. "normal lights," which I interpret strictly to mean non-magical light sources;
2. "light spells of lower level," which I interpret strictly to mean lower-level spells with the Light descriptor; and
3. "[h]igher-level light spells," which I interpret strictly to mean higher-level spells with the Light descriptor.
These three categories leave out some light sources. They leave out not only all light-producing spells that don't have the Light descriptor (as others have already pointed out), but also all spells with the Light descriptor that have the same spell level as the Darkness spell.
(I'm going to discuss spells of the second group, spells of equal spell level that have the Light or Darkness descriptor, in the following section, under the row of asterisks below. In this section, I will always refer to these spells as Light spells or Darkness spells, with a capital 'L' and a capital 'D'. If these spells don't interest you (though I think they have relevance here), skip ahead to the second row of asterisks.)
*** *** ***
What effect does the Darkness spell (SL 2) have on a Light spell whose spell level is the same, such as the arcane version of the Continual Flame spell (SL 2)? As a house rule, I allow the otherwise prevailing light conditions to exist in the overlapping areas of effect. I have adopted this house rule from the description of the Daylight spell.
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Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
The problem with this sentence in the description of the Daylight spell is that it conflicts with the description of the Darkness spell. The Daylight spell is of level three, and the Darkness spell is of level two. Thus, following the rule that appears in the description of the Darkness spell, the Daylight spell and the Darkness spell should not negate each other; instead, the Daylight spell, being of higher level, should be "not affected by darkness." I think this troublesome sentence in the description of the Daylight spell should be altered to read as follows.
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Daylight brought into an area of deeper darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.
If the description of the Daylight spell is altered in this way, it no longer conflicts with the description of the Darkness spell. Moreover, it gives us a general rule that we can apply whenever a Light spell overlaps with a Darkness spell whose spell level is the same.
*** *** ***
This still leaves out another big category of light sources: all light produced by magic of any kind that doesn't have the Light descriptor. These light sources include the Holy Star spell, flashy spells like Fireball and Lightning Bolt, magic auras (and visible auras of other kinds, such as alignment auras), and magical phenomena such the "visible energy fluctuations" produced by two or more spells of the Abjuration school that remain active within 10 feet of each other for more than 24 hours.
What should we decide to do about these spells and light-producing magical effects?
I recommend making a house rule that any magical light of a higher spell level will defeat magical darkness of a lower spell level, and vice versa, and that any magical light and darkness of equal spell level will simply negate each other.* Thus, the light of the Holy Star spell, though no brighter than a candle, should overpower even the Deeper Darkness spell (SL 3), because its source is a seventh-level spell.
However, I cannot say that this house rule is more faithful to the Rules as Written than any other.
________________
*In the case of magic auras and visible auras of other kinds, it should make a difference whether the Divination spell you use has a higher spell-level than the Darkness spell that obscures the auras. Of course, even the lowly Detect Magic spell still empowers you to sense the presence of magic auras in an area of magical Darkness; indeed, it still empowers you, after one round, to count how many auras there are and to gauge the strength of the most powerful magic present, and after two rounds, to pinpoint each aura's location. The Darkness merely makes these auras impossible to see when you use the Detect Magic spell, unless you apply the Heighten Spell feat. In my opinion, not being able to see a magic aura should thwart the use of Spellcraft skill to identify the aura's school of magic, because this (in my imagination) is indicated by the aura's color. But again, this is only my opinion and only a house rule.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
This can all be put to rest thanks to the Light spell:
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A light spell (one with the light descriptor) counters and dispels a darkness spell (one with the darkness descriptor) of an equal or lower level.
Holy star isn't a light descriptor spell and so would be incapable of brightening an area inside magical darkness.
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Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel
What effect does the Darkness spell (SL 2) have on a Light spell whose spell level is the same, such as the arcane version of the Continual Flame spell (SL 2)? As a house rule, I allow the otherwise prevailing light conditions to exist in the overlapping areas of effect. I have adopted this house rule from the description of the Daylight spell.
It can counter/dispel a light spell of the same level or lower. This means it can be used to counterspell, or dispel like haste/slow do to each other. Personally, stating lower level spells have no effect is stating the benchmark. Higher level spells is based on that benchmark. Meaning 2nd level or higher light spells work normally if the darkness spell isn't dispelled.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darg
Holy Star isn't a light descriptor spell and so would be incapable of brightening an area inside magical darkness.
The rule that spells with the Light descriptor counter and dispel spells with the Darkness descriptor of equal or lower level, and vice versa, applies only to spells with the Light or Darkness descriptor. It tells us nothing about the Holy Star spell, because this spell has neither the Light descriptor nor the Darkness descriptor.
A dungeon master has to make a judgement call about spells like the Holy Star spell that have neither the Light descriptor nor the Darkness descriptor.
1. Maybe all light-producing spells that don't have the Light descriptor create the equivalent of natural, non-magical light, in which case they are all "incapable of brightening an area inside magical darkness." This is a perfectly acceptable judgement (and you have every right to prefer it), but the rules do not require it.
2. Maybe all light-producing spells that don't have the Light descriptor create light that is equally as powerful as spells of the same level with the Light descriptor. This is the judgement that I prefer, but I admit that the rules do not require it.
3. Maybe light-producing spells that don't have the Light descriptor create light that is especially powerful, so that spells with the Darkness descriptor are incapable of darkening them. After all, the rules never say that spells with the Darkness descriptor are capable of darkening light-producing spells that don't have the Light descriptor. I reject this notion because I believe it makes no sense (and you probably do, too), but there is no rule that forbids it.
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Originally Posted by
Darg
[A darkness spell] can counter/dispel a light spell of the same level or lower. This means it can be used to counterspell, or dispel like haste/slow do to each other. Personally, stating lower level spells have no effect is stating the benchmark. Higher level spells is based on that benchmark. Meaning 2nd level or higher light spells work normally if the darkness spell isn't dispelled.
I wonder whether we agree on the meanings of the words "counter" and "dispel" in this context.
In my previous posting, I mentioned my proposed house rule that in general, any Light spell negates the effect of any Darkness spell of equal level wherever the two spells overlap. This house rule, as I meant it and intended it, was not about countering and not about dispelling. It was about two spells mutually negating each other, whereby "negating" means the same thing as suppressing.
In the descriptions of the Light spell and other spells with the Light or Darkness descriptor, I interpret the word "counter" to mean only to use to counterspell a spell that an enemy is trying to cast. Thus, if you ready the act of casting the Darkness spell to be triggered when an enemy spellcaster casts the Light spell, you can counterspell the enemy's Light spell. Doing so causes both spells to be expended instantly. (As a house rule, I always consider an enemy spellcaster to be "within range" of a counterspell when they are either within your spell's range or within Close range of you, that is, within 25 feet plus five feet for every caster levels you have. Otherwise, both the Light spell and the Darkness spell, which have a range of Touch, would be rather impractical to use as counterspells.)
In the descriptions of the Light spell and other spells with the Light or Darkness descriptor, I interpret the word "dispel" to mean only to use to dispel. Thus, if an enemy has cast the Light spell upon a torch, you can dispel the Light spell by casting the Darkness spell upon the same torch. In my understanding, using the Darkness spell to dispel the Light spell is like using the Dispel Magic spell for the same purpose, except that it requires touch. You don't replace the Light spell with the Darkness spell; instead, the Darkness spell expends itself instantaneously in order to end the Light spell, just as the Dispel Magic spell would.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
In other words, there are three different kinds of interactions between darkness spells and light spells. The first is that one can counter the other (so that neither spell ever does anything), the second is that one can dispel the other (so one spell takes effect for a while but then ends, while the other spell does nothing but ending the first), and the third is when both are cast independently, but happen to have their areas of effect overlap.
The first two are specifically described for spells with the [light] and [darkness] descriptors, and only apply to spells with those descriptors (i.e., a spell with neither descriptor cannot be used to counter or dispel in this way). But the third is definitely something that can happen even with spells without those descriptors, and the rules are unclear what happens with them.
I would maintain that, in all cases unless otherwise specified, the darkness spell wins and completely defeats a light source, even a magical one, that doesn't have the [light] descriptor. Why? Because Darkness says that it defeats "normal light sources". What does "normal" mean here? If they had meant "nonmagical", they would have said "nonmagical". I think the only reasonable definition for "normal light source", here, is "not either of the special sorts of light sources described immediately afterwards", i.e, light spells of various levels.
In other words, if you have a light spell of greater level, it defeats the darkness spell, but in all other cases, your light source is "normal", and is defeated by darkness.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
I think both sides have some valid points here. I've ended up concluding that the star itself still exists and can perform all of its functions except for illumination. I.e., one could still gain the circumstance bonus to armor class, or the spell turning effect, but might not be able to see enough to use the fire beam attack.
Re: Holy Star vs. Darkness
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Duke of Urrel
The rule that spells with the Light descriptor counter and dispel spells with the Darkness descriptor of equal or lower level, and vice versa, applies only to spells with the Light or Darkness descriptor. It tells us nothing about the Holy Star spell, because this spell has neither the Light descriptor nor the Darkness descriptor.
The whole point of me pointing out the quote was to show that when a spell says "light spell" or "darkness spell" it means spells with the descriptor. You're honestly thinking too hard on this.
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Originally Posted by
Duke of Urrel
I wonder whether we agree on the meanings of the words "counter" and "dispel" in this context.
For one, spells countering each other is a specific interaction mentioned under the counterspell rules:
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Specific Exceptions: Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects. For example, you can counter a haste spell with a slow spell as well as with another haste spell, or you can counter reduce person with enlarge person.
As for spells dispelling each other, this is found under the combining magic effects rules:
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Spells with Opposite Effects: Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spell’s description.
This can send you on a little hunt through the glossary, but in effect dispel means to negate and negate means to nullify or end an effect in regards to a target or area.
Anyways, I did a little digging in the 3.0 PHB to look at the differences and the description here makes a lot of sense as to why the 3.5 description is a little screwy. They increased the spell level of daylight which was 2nd level for arcane casters in 3.0 and so they literally just ended up deleting the adjoining sentence and called it a day.
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This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. Not even creatures that can normally see in the dark can see in an area shrouded in magical darkness. Normal lights do not work, nor do light spells of a lower level. Darkness and the 2nd-level spell daylight cancel each other, leaving whatever light conditions normally prevail in the overlapping areas of the spells. Higher-level light spells are not affected by darkness.
If the spell is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effects are blocked until the covering is removed.
Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower level.
So really it does look like the intent was that darkness and light spells (when not used to counter or dispel each other) of the same level interact in a way that cancel each other out leaving the normal prevailing light conditions.
