The Gadgeteer

I got struck by a lightning... ahem, like a lightning from clear sky, with an idea, that boils down to wordplay with Gadgets and a Musketeer.

Obviously, there's no question that it would be best represented by an Artificer. But which Subclass?

A musketeer would mean some sort of a warrior, so I'd prefer one of those that has the Extra Attack feature, but how would you build it?

Their weapons of choice would be a rapier and a pistol (though a musketeer would obviously need a musket, as well). Now, I realize that Crossbow Expert doesn't work as written with a pistol, since it's not a crossbow, but let's assume a DM would be lenient about it. Preferably high Dexterity.

As for gadgets, well it goes without saying that gadgets come as a natural part of being an artificer, so all kinds of weird infusions et cetera.

I'm unsure whether Armorer or Battle Smith is the better option, or if I should make another thread and Homebrew a new one called Gadgeteer (or look for one already made that meets my quality standards).

Hmm, alright, I got one word for you.

ARTILLERIST

Just reskin your Eldritch Cannon as a musket

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Originally Posted by Trickster

Hmm, alright, I got one word for you.

ARTILLERIST

Just reskin your Eldritch Cannon as a musket

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Artillerist is an option, sure, but why reskin Eldritch Cannon, if there are actual rules for a musket, and an actual optional rule available to ALL artificers: Firearm Proficiency?

Also, I'd like to ask this because I'm genuinely curious: what is there so appealing in "putting all the apples in one basket", by making everything on a concept rely on one ability (in other words, in making a "One Trick Pony"), when you could have spread out to have more options. Why not utilize Firearm Proficiency and use the rules for them AND Eldritch Cannon as a separate tool (or gadget, in this context)?

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Originally Posted by Arkhios

I got struck by a lightning... ahem, like a lightning from clear sky, with an idea, that boils down to wordplay with Gadgets and a Musketeer.

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I don't want to rain on your parade (fencing pun not intended), but "gadgeteer" is already a word in itself.

Also you don't need a DM being permisive with the Crossbow Expert feat, you can just take the Gunner feat.

Now, subclass-wise, if you want to be an high DEX musketeer type who fights with gadgets, you should lilely go Battle Smith. Armorer is more Iron-Man-style power armor.

My main advice, though, is to multiclass as soon as you got what you want out of Artificier. I would either go Rogue or Fighter.

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Originally Posted by Trickster

Hmm, alright, I got one word for you.

ARTILLERIST

Just reskin your Eldritch Cannon as a musket

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Literally this. Except make it one handed magic flintlock pistol. The arcane firearm is also a magic flintlock pistol. Dual wield magic guns.

No special build requirements, just play artillerist!

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

I don't want to rain on your parade (fencing pun not intended), but "gadgeteer" is already a word in itself.

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I mean, I know that Gagdeteer is a word in itself, but the whole idea (for me) came from realization of that the word could be a portmanteau of a Gadget Musketeer (hence, the wordplay. Aaand maybe a bit of swordplay).

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

Also you don't need a DM being permisive with the Crossbow Expert feat, you can just take the Gunner feat.

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Actually, Crossbow Expert's and Gunner's similarities end in ignoring loading properties and a hostile creature within 5 feet. Sadly, those two weren't the issue here.
The real issue is that Crossbow Expert specifically mentions "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding." I was implying to achieve this with a firearm instead via DM leniency.

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

Now, subclass-wise, if you want to be a high DEX musketeer type who fights with gadgets, you should likely go Battle Smith. Armorer is more Iron-Man-style power armor.

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Yeah, probably. It's just the Steel Defender I'm struggling with as it adds nothing to the flavor or concept, and is mostly a useless liability.

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

My main advice, though, is to multiclass as soon as you got what you want out of Artificer. I would either go Rogue or Fighter.

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In that case, I might as well take the Artillerist, as suggested above (twice), multiclass to Fighter 5+ for the Extra Attack, maybe Eldritch Knight to shore up some loss of spell slot progression, and go back to Artificer at some point.

I suggest Artillerist to at least level 5. That gets you Arcane Firearm; spell focus and damage booster to spells (including cantrips), but also a firearm usable as any other firearm, but still with whatever the wand/staff/rod you made it out of available too. In your case, a musket, which can be used with the Sharpshooter feat. Get yourself the Archery fighting style for +2 damage.

The Eldritch Cannon scales out fairly early (until 9th anyway), but as a bonus action, you always have a second attack.

Two level dip of Fighter for Action Surge, if you don't mind thinning spell progression. Going to 5 levels for Extra Attack may not be worth the spell progression loss.

An idea: Swords Bard's Blade Flourish works with ANY weapon, gets Extra Attack at 6th, helps with spell progression. Only the Artificer spells can be boosted with the Arcane Firearm, but slots are slots.

A reflavored Forge adept might be a good fit for you.

As long as you have access to muskets and such in game you can use your infusions to cover down to make it workable.

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Originally Posted by JLandan

I suggest Artillerist to at least level 5. That gets you Arcane Firearm; spell focus and damage booster to spells (including cantrips), but also a firearm usable as any other firearm, but still with whatever the wand/staff/rod you made it out of available too. In your case, a musket, which can be used with the Sharpshooter feat. Get yourself the Archery fighting style for +2 damage.

The Eldritch Cannon scales out fairly early (until 9th anyway), but as a bonus action, you always have a second attack.

Two level dip of Fighter for Action Surge, if you don't mind thinning spell progression. Going to 5 levels for Extra Attack may not be worth the spell progression loss.

An idea: Swords Bard's Blade Flourish works with ANY weapon, gets Extra Attack at 6th, helps with spell progression. Only the Artificer spells can be boosted with the Arcane Firearm, but slots are slots.

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By my reading (and I read it several times over) Arcane Firearm doesn't specify a type of firearm, and it seems to me that it's not an actual weapon, capable of firing bullets, but rather what it actually is: a spellcasting focus. The "ammunition" used are the artificer spells cast through it. It works to an extent, sure, but it's not a weapon per se.

Archery Fighting Style gives +2 to Hit, but yeah. That'd work.

At first I thought that Eldritch Knight could be the answer because of "1/3 per level" progression for spellcasting, but I just realized that TCE Bladesinger 6 could be better, due to how their Extra Attack feature is written, especially with Artillerist: I could attack once per turn with the rapier, then substitute one attack with a cantrip and then use my bonus action to use Eldritch Cannon.

Since a rod/staff/wand is not an actual weapon, (IIRC) I could benefit from both Bladesong (wielding Rapier in one hand) and Arcane Firearm (a rod or wand) or Eldritch Cannon in the other.

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Originally Posted by Arkhios

By my reading (and I read it several times over) Arcane Firearm doesn't specify a type of firearm, and it seems to me that it's not an actual weapon, capable of firing bullets, but rather what it actually is: a spellcasting focus. The "ammunition" used are the artificer spells cast through it. It works to an extent, sure, but it's not a weapon per se.

Archery Fighting Style gives +2 to Hit, but yeah. That'd work.

At first I thought that Eldritch Knight could be the answer because of "1/3 per level" progression for spellcasting, but I just realized that TCE Bladesinger 6 could be better, due to how their Extra Attack feature is written, especially with Artillerist: I could attack once per turn with the rapier, then substitute one attack with a cantrip and then use my bonus action to use Eldritch Cannon.

Since a rod/staff/wand is not an actual weapon, (IIRC) I could benefit from both Bladesong (wielding Rapier in one hand) and Arcane Firearm (a rod or wand) or Eldritch Cannon in the other.

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Gotta disagree. If it isn't a firearm, why call it that? If it just makes a wand/staff/rod into a spell focus (which is weak for a 5th level feature), why not just say so?

I can find no reference one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by JLandan

Gotta disagree. If it isn't a firearm, why call it that? If it just makes a wand/staff/rod into a spell focus (which is weak for a 5th level feature), why not just say so?

I can find no reference one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Arcane Firearm

At 5th level, You know how to turn a wand, staff, or rod into an arcane firearm, a conduit for your destructive spells. When you finish a long rest, you can use woodcarver's tools to carve special sigils into a wand, staff, or rod and thereby turn it into your arcane firearm. The sigils disappear from the object if you later carve them on a different item. The sigils otherwise last indefinitely.

You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell's damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

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It pretty explicitly says "Wand, staff, or rod" and it gives +1d8 damage to your spells cast through it.

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Originally Posted by JLandan

Gotta disagree. If it isn't a firearm, why call it that? If it just makes a wand/staff/rod into a spell focus (which is weak for a 5th level feature), why not just say so?

I can find no reference one way or the other.

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Ok, let me rephrase. Sure, it's an Arcane Firearm, as written, but it's not a weapon per se.

Besides, it does say it. It turns a wand, staff, or rod into a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells and that it's called an Arcane Firearm. In a manner of speaking it does say it's a firearm, but it doesn't say if it uses the statistics of a pistol, a musket, or some other variation of firearms or whether this Arcane Firearm has its own statistics in a similar manner to other firearms. It doesn't list what kind of ammunition it uses, or whether it has some sort of loading rules. An arcane firearm doesn't exist elsewhere in the rules.

If an Arcane Firearm was a weapon it would have statistics, such as a damage die and type (B/P/S or some energy type maybe) related to its type, a range, and other properties associated with actual weapons. You cannot make an attack with the Arcane Firearm without casting a spell, because the rules don't tell you how (I guess you could use it as an Improvised Weapon, in melee, but that's not the same thing). Do you see my point now?

Basically most of the text is just "empty words", or flavor. As you put it, the feature is rather weak. But it's flavorful, and that's not always a bad thing.

Combined with TCE Bladesinger (I checked; it works) I could use Bladesong, make an attack with a Rapier and, starting from Bladesinger 6th level, cast one of my Cantrips (it doesn't specify from which class it has to come from), and use the Eldritch Cannon with a bonus action. Since I'd need to hold the Arcane Firearm in the other hand, I couldn't wield the Eldritch Cannon in hand, but that's not a problem. It could just be what it's good at: a "Gadget"

Cantrips are still spells (in fact, they are "0th level spells"), so they'd get the +1d8 extra damage as well.

So, let's assume I was an Artillerist 5/(TCE) Bladesinger 6, and I had a Rapier, I could make the following attack routine every turn:

Attack Action: 2 attacks. One attack with a Rapier (1d8+Dex+maybe something extra), cast one cantrip in place of another attack (let's say Fire Bolt; at 11th level, it would deal 3d10 + the extra 1d8 fire damage from Arcane Firearm), and then a Bonus Action to activate Eldritch Cannon (as a Flamethrower, a Force Ballista, or a Protector).

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Originally Posted by JNAProductions

It pretty explicitly says "Wand, staff, or rod" and it gives +1d8 damage to your spells cast through it.

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It also explicitly says "turn it into your arcane firearm", which implies it is no longer a wand/staff/rod and is now something different. It also refers to "the firearm" (no arcane) when casting spells through it. If it is still only a wand/staff/rod, why would it be "turned" into something different? The description is definitely NOT clear on this. Sage Advice is silent on this, and it must have come up before; which leaves it open to interpretation. For myself, I interpret the word firearm to mean firearm.

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Originally Posted by JLandan

It also explicitly says "turn it into your arcane firearm", which implies it is no longer a wand/staff/rod and is now something different. It also refers to "the firearm" (no arcane) when casting spells through it. If it is still only a wand/staff/rod, why would it be "turned" into something different? The description is definitely NOT clear on this. Sage Advice is silent on this, and it must have come up before; which leaves it open to interpretation. For myself, I interpret the word firearm to mean firearm.

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Okay. What are the stats for it?
It clearly cannot be the DMG's firearms-with Infuse Item, it explicitly says "See the item's description in the Dungeon Master's Guide for more information about it," yet it says nothing about that in Arcane Firearm.

Dang it! Came in expecting a Gadget-using Cannoneer

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Originally Posted by JNAProductions

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Originally Posted by JLandan

It also explicitly says "turn it into your arcane firearm", which implies it is no longer a wand/staff/rod and is now something different. It also refers to "the firearm" (no arcane) when casting spells through it. If it is still only a wand/staff/rod, why would it be "turned" into something different? The description is definitely NOT clear on this. Sage Advice is silent on this, and it must have come up before; which leaves it open to interpretation. For myself, I interpret the word firearm to mean firearm.

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Okay. What are the stats for it?
It clearly cannot be the DMG's firearms-with Infuse Item, it explicitly says "See the item's description in the Dungeon Master's Guide for more information about it," yet it says nothing about that in Arcane Firearm.

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Indeed. Unless you can provide an exact quote describing the statistics of an Arcane Firearm, it is not a weapon. According to DMG, these are the firearms' properties:

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Firearms use special ammunition, and some of them have the burst fire or reload property.

Ammunition. The ammunition of a firearm is destroyed upon use. Renaissance and modern firearms use bullets. Futuristic firearms are powered by a special type of ammunition called energy cells. An energy cell contains enough power for all the shots its firearm can make.
Burst Fire. A weapon that has the burst fire property can make a normal single-target attack, or it can spray a 10-foot-cube area within normal range with shots. Each creature in the area must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or take the weapon's normal damage. This action uses ten pieces of ammunition.
Reload. A limited number of shots can be made with a weapon that has the reload property. A character must then reload it using an action or a bonus action (the character's choice).

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but none of those matter if we don't know what kind of ammunition it uses, or how much damage does an Arcane Firearm do by default (and what type), or how many shots can be fired before you need to reload. And, these are just a few of the details that we are still missing for an Arcane Firearm.

By RAW, it is still a wand/staff/rod with special sigils carved into it, that is merely called an Arcane Firearm, and that you can use as a Spellcasting Focus for your Artificer Spells. Do note, that an Artificer can't normally use any of those items as a Spellcasting Focus, like wizards do. The Arcane Firearm is a "firearm" only by name and vague description, not by its function.

TBH, if I had an account, I would probably go ask from the Twit-- err, X, whether the Arcane Firearm is missing something from the description, or whether it is merely an elaborate way to describe a very unique spellcasting focus. And if it was missing the details that it was intended to transform into a weapon, what are the weapon statistics of an Arcane Firearm. Even then, if they were to give those statistics, it would be a personal ruling of a designer until they updated the rule from the book itself.

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Originally Posted by Rukelnikov

Dang it! Came in expecting a Gadget-using Cannoneer

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Dagnabbit! Wouldn't that have been something! :smallbiggrin:

I agree to the possible definition as being only an empowered arcane focus, though I still think it is a firearm. Either way, WotC really needs to address this better. A sage advice article would do, even though those are sometimes totally wrong. The writers and editors chose the word firearm. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, because firearm does have a meaning, that being a firearm. A different name for the feature and the item would be more concise in the case of it being not-a-firearm; perhaps Artificer Focus or Artillerist Focus. This should have come up in playtest. But it isn't the first-time poor writing/design and editing have occurred. Nor a lack of playtesting. Especially in the Eberon and Tasha's books.

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Originally Posted by JLandan

I agree to the possible definition as being only an empowered arcane focus, though I still think it is a firearm. Either way, WotC really needs to address this better. A sage advice article would do, even though those are sometimes totally wrong. The writers and editors chose the word firearm. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, because firearm does have a meaning, that being a firearm. A different name for the feature and the item would be more concise in the case of it being not-a-firearm; perhaps Artificer Focus or Artillerist Focus. This should have come up in playtest. But it isn't the first-time poor writing/design and editing have occurred. Nor a lack of playtesting. Especially in the Eberon and Tasha's books.

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You are literally the only person I've ever heard of who read the name of the ability and decided to ignore the plain words of the ability text.

Do Fighters get to use Second Wind twice per short rest at your tables? It's Second Wind, so there has to be a first. Or perhaps they can only use it after someone casts Gust?
If you had a Wizard/Cleric multiclass, can slots recovered with Arcane Recovery not be used on Cleric spells?

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Originally Posted by JNAProductions

You are literally the only person I've ever heard of who read the name of the ability and decided to ignore the plain words of the ability text.

Do Fighters get to use Second Wind twice per short rest at your tables? It's Second Wind, so there has to be a first. Or perhaps they can only use it after someone casts Gust?
If you had a Wizard/Cleric multiclass, can slots recovered with Arcane Recovery not be used on Cleric spells?

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Arcane Firearm
5th-level Artillerist feature

You know how to turn a wand, staff, or rod into an arcane firearm, a conduit for your destructive spells. When you finish a long rest, you can use woodcarver’s tools to carve special sigils into a wand, staff, or rod and thereby turn it into your arcane firearm. The sigils disappear from the object if you later carve them on a different item. The sigils otherwise last indefinitely.

You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell’s damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

Emphasis mine.

Just what text have I ignored?

Please don't insult. It is a violation of forum rules.

Then please, list the stats for it.
And as a reminder, there's a specific callout in the Infusion section to see the DMG for Magic Items. If they intended the Firearm to be a gun, they'd have included a callout there as well.

Abbreviating Arcane Firearm as just Firearm does not make it a musket.

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Originally Posted by JLandan

Arcane Firearm
5th-level Artillerist feature

You know how to turn a wand, staff, or rod into an arcane firearm, a conduit for your destructive spells. When you finish a long rest, you can use woodcarver’s tools to carve special sigils into a wand, staff, or rod and thereby turn it into your arcane firearm. The sigils disappear from the object if you later carve them on a different item. The sigils otherwise last indefinitely.

You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell’s damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

Emphasis mine.

Just what text have I ignored?

Please don't insult. It is a violation of forum rules.

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Read it in context of the setting in which the class originates and it fixes it. KB himself has covered this on his blog.

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When you finish a long rest, you can use woodcarver’s tools to carve special sigils into a wand, staff, or rod and thereby turn it into your arcane firearm.

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While this doesn't say that it makes a musket...what's stopping you from turning an engraved rod into a musket after? You say 'a wand with special sigils carved into it,' I say '30 inches of filigreed ash-wood shaped to fit my shoulder and hold a metal tube'. Is not a wand with metal attached to it still a wand, my friends? I, for one, welcome our finely decorated arquebuses and jezzail muskets of arcane destruction!

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Originally Posted by Rerem115

While this doesn't say that it makes a musket...what's stopping you from turning an engraved rod into a musket after? You say 'a wand with special sigils carved into it,' I say '30 inches of filigreed ash-wood shaped to fit my shoulder and hold a metal tube'. Is not a wand with metal attached to it still a wand, my friends? I, for one, welcome our finely decorated arquebuses and jezzail muskets of arcane destruction!

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Probably the recoil.

I wouldn’t be opposed to working with a player to combine an Arcane Firearm with a gun, probably via a custom Infusion, though.

I miss the UA thunder cannon artificer. But if you go infiltrator armorer you can go with a lightning 'gun' which still gets you extra attack at level 5. Bit of extra movement for swashbuckling too, and it all syncs well with multiclassing into rogue and/or fighter.

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Originally Posted by JLandan

Arcane Firearm
5th-level Artillerist feature

You know how to turn a wand, staff, or rod into an arcane firearm, a conduit for your destructive spells. When you finish a long rest, you can use woodcarver’s tools to carve special sigils into a wand, staff, or rod and thereby turn it into your arcane firearm. The sigils disappear from the object if you later carve them on a different item. The sigils otherwise last indefinitely.

You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell’s damage rolls equal to the number rolled.

Emphasis mine.

Just what text have I ignored?

Please don't insult. It is a violation of forum rules.

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You're ignoring (apparently) the explicit explanation of what the [arcane firearm] is, especially in the subclass feature context, and otherwise. It's explained right after the text telling that you can turn a wand, staff, or rod into an [arcane firearm], and that the [arcane firearm] is a conduit for your destructive spells. In other words, a spellcasting focus (as explained further ahead both above and below).
[square brackets to emphasize that the 'arcane firearm' is one term, not just one or the other]

As JNAProductions said, just because the feature names and (repeatedly) refers to it as firearm, it doesn't mean it's a gun. You can't fire shots of any kind without casting a spell while using it as a conduit for your artificer spells (all of which, by the way, you can't cast without a spellcasting focus, see below).

Remember that all Artificers must use their tools to cast their spells (it's literally spelled out in the class description; it's not an optional feature). Artificers can't "just cast spells" like other spellcasters do. This feature is an extension of it. See below the quote from under 1st-level artificer feature "Spellcasting".

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Tools Required
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus --snip--

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Emphasis mine.

Also, stoutstien offers good insight on the matter (I believe this is the Blog stoutstien is speaking of). Anyway, in Eberron, in general staves and wands often double as "sort of magical guns", because in the world of Eberron there are no actual guns given the direction the world's technological advancement has taken; instead of guns the Spellcasting Foci are wielded as if they were guns (but they're not; think of a child using their imagination and pretending that fallen branches or sticks are guns, it's like that).

I can't find the exact text describing this at the moment, but I'm certain I've read it a couple of times from a 5e Eberron related document, book, or booklet. (I thought it was in Eberron: Rising from the Last War, but it might've been in the Embers of the Last War, or the pdf that predated E:RftLW, and I seem to have misplaced my copies of those).

Ah, yes! I found it. Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron specifically mentions that arcane focuses are basically equal to weapons in Eberron, which is a home to Wandslingers. A Wandslinger is not a class, but rather a term describing people capable of casting at least some arcane spells, who use arcane focuses essentially as if they were their weapons, through which they cast their cantrips and other spells.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, page 114 - Arcane Focuses

Go to the Bazaar in Sharn or any enclave of House Cannith and you’ll find a wide selection of arcane focuses to choose from. For a wandslinger, the choice of an arcane focus carries the same weight as a duelist deciding between a rapier or a maul. Do you use a wand of Fernian ash to focus your fire bolt, or do you harness defensive energies with a Risian orb?
An arcane focus is a tool, and only provides its benefits while you’re actively using it. An orb of shielding provides no protection when it’s in your pack; you must have it in your hand.
In Khorvaire, arcane focus items are recognized as weapons: if guards are securing swords and bows, they’ll also require you to turn over your staff.

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Also, tangentially relevant:

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron, page 114 - Optional Rule: Two-Handed Arcane Focuses

In Eberron, an arcane focus is a weapon. As such, it can be interesting to give a focus some of the same trade-offs as mundane weapons: do you sacrifice your free hand for greater power?
If you use this optional rule, when a caster uses a two-handed arcane focus to cast an offensive cantrip (a cantrip requiring a saving throw or an attack roll), the range of the cantrip is increased by 50 percent.
By this rule, a staff always requires two hands, while rods can be used with either one or two hands. Using a two-handed arcane focus fulfills the somatic component requirement for a spell.

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AAANYWAY, with all that said, I can understand why a player or DM would want to houserule how the feature works in their game, and that's fine. Even I would probably do that as a DM, if requested, but I wouldn't assume or insist it's the RAW or even RAI.

If or when should I do so, I would probably say that in addition to its normal features, the Arcane Firearm is also a firearm that you have proficiency with. It has a normal range of 100 feet and a long range of 400 feet. The damage it deals is 1d8 force damage per hit, and you use your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier for attack and damage rolls with it. It doesn't require ammunition as long as you wield it. I counts as an Infusion when wielded by you, but doesn't count against the number of items you can infuse. [DM Note]to prevent it from stacking with other infusions[/DM Note]