Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

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2011-11-10, 08:02 PM
Yitzi

Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

The biggest complaint about clerics in terms of being overpowered seems to be their versatility. This is of course less of an issue in Core (due to fewer spells to choose from) and much less of an issue if the DM is able to control the information available to some extent (as a cleric still can't cast spells he hasn't prepared), but for both balance and fluff reasons some reduction in available spells seems desirable. Thus, I propose (as part of my general Core fix), the following change for PEACHing:

Domain-associated spells: Not all gods grant the same spells to their clerics. Each god has particular areas of expertise (represented by domains), and these affect what spells are available to a cleric of that god. (Clerics without a god should choose 4 domains that fit their general beliefs, subject to approval by the DM. Their actual domains must be chosen from among these.)

Each god grants the spells listed for each of the domains below that they possess (whether the cleric has chosen the domain or not), as well as the spells listed for the "universal" domain. Note that a spell may have different levels for different lists; in such case, the cleric may choose which level he wants the spell to count as.
If a cleric gains the ability to spontaneously cast a spell, he also gains access to that spell even if it is on none of his deity's domain lists.
A cleric may use wands and scrolls of any cleric spell regardless of whether it is associated with one of his deity's domains, but must use his deity's available domains when determining valid effects of the Miracle spell.

Domain lists:

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Air:

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1:Obscuring Mist
2:Resist Energy*, Silence
3:Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Protection from Energy*, Sound Burst, Summon Monster III**, Wind Wall
4:Air Walk, Dismissal~, Lesser Planar Ally**, Summon Monster IV**
5:Plane Shift (to air-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V**
6:Banishment~, Greater Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VI**, Wind Walk
7:Control Weather, Summon Monster VII**
8:Greater Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VII**
9:Gate**, Storm of Vengeance, Summon Monster IX**

*Electricity only
**As an air spell only
~Earth creatures only

Animal:

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1:Summon Monster I
2:Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor, Summon Monster II*
3:Neutralize Poison, Poison, Summon Monster III*
4:Giant Vermin, Repel Vermin, Summon Monster IV*
5:Insect Plague, Summon Monster V*
6:Antilife Shell, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Summon Monster VI*
7:Summon Monster VII*
8:Summon Monster VIII*
9:Summon Monster IX*

*Extraplanar versions of animals and vermin only

Chaos:

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1:Detect Law, Entropic Shield, Protection from Law, Summon Monster I*
2:Align Weapon*, Bane, Cause Fear, Shatter, Sound Burst, Summon Monster II*, Undetectable Alignment
3:Magic Circle Against Law, Summon Monster III*
4:Bestow Curse, Contagion, Dismissal~, Glyph of Warding, Lesser Planar Ally*, Summon Monster IV*
5:Dispel Law, Plane Shift (to Chaotic-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V*
6:Animate Objects, Banishment~, Blade Barrier, Forbiddance, Insect Plague, Planar Ally*, Summon Monster VI*, Symbol of Fear
7:Summon Monster VII*, Word of Chaos
8:Cloak of Chaos, Greater Planar Ally*, Summon Monster VII*, Symbol of Insanity
9:Gate*, Summon Monster IX*

*Cast as a Chaotic spell only
~Creatures with the Lawful subtype only

Death:

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1:Cause Fear, Curse Water, Deathwatch, Detect Undead, Doom, Hide from Undead, Inflict Light Wounds
2:Darkness, Death Knell, Desecrate, Inflict Moderate Wounds
3:Animate Dead, Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Eagle's Splendor, Inflict Serious Wounds, Speak with Dead
4:Deeper Darkness, Inflict Critical Wounds, Poison
5:Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Plane Shift (negative-dominant planes only), Slay Living,
6:Create Undead, Harm, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds
7:Destruction, Mass Inflict Serious Wounds, Undeath to Death
8:Create Greater Undead, Mass Inflict Critical Wounds, Resurrection, Symbol of Death, Symbol of Weakness
9:Energy Drain, Soul Bind

Destruction:

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1:Inflict Light Wounds
2:Inflict Moderate Wounds, Shatter
3:Contagion, Death Knell, Inflict Serious Wounds, Sound Burst
4:Bestow Curse, Inflict Critical Wounds
5:Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Plane Shift (negative-dominant planes only)
6:Harm, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds, Insect Plague, Slay Living
7:Destruction, Mass Inflict Serious Wounds
8:Earthquake, Mass Inflict Critical Wounds
9:Implosion

Earth:

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1:Magic Stone
2:Resist Energy*
3:Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Meld Into Stone, Protection from Energy*, Stone Shape, Summon Monster III**
4:Dismissal~, Lesser Planar Ally**, Summon Monster IV**
5:Plane Shift (to earth-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V**
6:Banishment~, Greater Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VI**
7:Summon Monster VII**
8:Earthquake, Greater Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VII**
9:Gate**, Summon Monster IX**

*Acid only
**As an earth spell only
~Air creatures only

Evil:

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1:Bane, Curse Water, Deathwatch, Detect Good, Protection from Good, Summon Monster I*
2:Align Weapon*, Cause Fear, Death Knell, Desecrate, Doom, Summon Monster II*, Undetectable Alignment
3:Animate Dead, Contagion, Magic Circle Against Good, Summon Monster III*
4:Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Dismissal~, Lesser Planar Ally*, Summon Monster IV*
5:Dispel Good, Plane Shift (to Evil-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V*, Symbol of Pain, Unhallow
6:Banishment~, Create Undead, Forbiddance, Planar Ally*, Summon Monster VI*
7:Blasphemy, Summon Monster VII*
8:Greater Planar Ally*, Summon Monster VII*, Unholy Aura
9:Gate*, Soul Bind, Summon Monster IX*

*Cast as an Evil spell only
~Creatures with the Good subtype only

Fire:

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1:Endure Elements
2:Continual Flame, Resist Energy*
3:Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Protection from Energy*, Summon Monster III**
4:Dismissal~, Lesser Planar Ally**, Searing Light, Summon Monster IV**
5:Flame Strike, Plane Shift (to fire-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V**
6:Banishment~, Greater Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VI**
7:Summon Monster VII**
8:Fire Storm, Greater Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VII**
9:Gate**, Summon Monster IX**

*Fire or Cold only (Glyph of Warding and Greater Glyph of Warding must be Fire)
**As a fire spell only
~Water creatures only

Good:

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1:Bless, Bless Water, Detect Evil, Protection from Evil, Summon Monster I*
2:Aid, Align Weapon*, Consecrate, Detect Undead, Gentle Repose, Hide from Undead, Shield Other, Summon Monster II*, Undetectable Alignment
3:Create Food and Water, Magic Circle Against Evil, Summon Monster III*
4:Dismissal~, Lesser Planar Ally*, Summon Monster IV*
5:Dispel Evil, Hallow, Plane Shift (to Good-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V*
6:Banishment~, Blade Barrier, Disrupting Weapon, Forbiddance, Mark of Justice, Planar Ally*, Summon Monster VI*
7:Holy Word, Summon Monster VII*
8:Holy Aura, Greater Planar Ally*, Summon Monster VII*
9:Gate*, Soul Bind, Summon Monster IX*

*Cast as a Good spell only
~Creatures with the Evil subtype only

Healing:

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1:None
2:Cure Moderate Wounds, Gentle Repose
3:Consecrate, Cure Serious Wounds, Neutralize Poison
4:Cure Critical Wounds, Restoration
5:Break Enchantment, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Plane Shift (positive-dominant planes only), Raise Dead
6:Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Heal
7:Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Heroes' Feast, Regenerate, Greater Restoration, Resurrection
8:Mass Cure Critical Wounds
9:Mass Heal, True Resurrection

Knowledge:

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1:Comprehend Languages, Deathwatch, Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Detect Undead
2:Augury, Find Traps, Locate Object, Zone of Truth
3:Invisibility Purge, Speak with Dead
4:Discern Lies, Divination, Scrying
5:True Seeing
6:Find the Path
7:Greater Scrying
8:Discern Location
9:None

Law:

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1:Command, Detect Chaos, Protection from Chaos, Summon Monster I*
2:Align Weapon*, Bless, Calm Emotions, Enthrall, Hold Person, Shield of Faith, Summon Monster II*, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth
3:Aid, Magic Circle Against Chaos, Summon Monster III*
4:Discern Lies, Dismissal~, Lesser Planar Ally*, Summon Monster IV*
5:Greater Command, Dispel Chaos, Mark of Justice, Plane Shift (to Lawful-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V*, Symbol of Sleep
6:Banishment~, Forbiddance, Geas/Quest, Planar Ally*, Summon Monster VI*
7:Dictum, Summon Monster VII*
8:Greater Planar Ally*, Shield of Law, Summon Monster VII*
9:Gate*, Summon Monster IX*

*Cast as a Lawful spell only
~Creatures with the Chaotic subtype only

Luck:

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1:Divine Favor, Entropic Shield
2:Aid, Magic Weapon, Resist Energy
3:Bestow Curse, Prayer, Protection from Energy
4:None
5:Break Enchantment, Greater Magic Weapon, Spell Resistance
6:Find the Path, Mark of Justice
7:Control Weather
8:None
9:None

Magic:

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1:None
2:Silence
3:Dispel Magic, Invisibility Purge, Undetectable Alignment
4:Spell Immunity
5:Break Enchantment, Spell Resistance
6:Antimagic Field, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Greater Dispel Magic
7:None
8:Greater Spell Immunity
9:None

Plant:

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1:None
2:None
3:None
4:None
5:None
6:Antiplant Shell
7:None
8:Fire Storm
9:None

Protection:

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1:Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith
2:Bear's Endurance, Bless, Hide from Undead, Obscuring Mist, Resist Energy, Shield Other
3:Aid, Dispel Magic, Find Traps, Glyph of Warding, Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Magic Vestment, Meld into Stone, Protection from Energy, Undetectable Alignment, Wind Wall
4:Obscure Object, Repel Vermin, Spell Immunity
5:Spell Resistance, Wall of Stone
6:Antilife Shell, Mass Bear's Endurance, Blade Barrier, Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Greater Dispel Magic, Forbiddance, Greater Glyph of Warding
7:Antimagic Field, Heroes' Feast, Refuge, Repulsion, Symbol of Weakness
8:Cloak of Chaos, Holy Aura, Shield of Law, Greater Spell Immunity, Unholy Aura
9:None

Strength:

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1:Magic Stone, Magic Weapon
2:Bless, Bull's Strength, Command, Inflict Light Wounds
3:Aid, Hold Person, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Magic Vestment, Shield Other
4:Blindness/Deafness, Inflict Serious Wounds, Spell Immunity
5:Inflict Critical Wounds, Righteous Might
6:Mass Bull's Strength, Greater Command, Slay Living
7:Antilife Shell, Symbol of Weakness
8:None
9:None

Sun:

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1:Bless Water, Detect Undead, Endure Elements
2:Consecrate, Magic Stone
3:Daylight, Eagle's Splendor, Searing Light
4:None
5:Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike
6:Undeath to Death
7:None
8:None
9:None

Travel:

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1:Endure Elements
2:None
3:Create Food and Water, Locate Object, Water Breathing, Water Walk
4:Air Walk, Dismissal, Repel Vermin, Stone Shape
5:Plane Shift
6:Banishment, Find the Path, Forbiddance, Wind Walk, Word of Recall
7:Control Weather*, Ethereal Jaunt, Refuge
8:Dimensional Lock
9:Astral Projection, Etherealness, Gate**

*Removal of phenomena only
**Planar Travel purpose only

Trickery:

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1:Cause Fear, Hide from Undead, Obscuring Mist
2:Darkness, Doom, Eagle's Splendor, Enthrall, Silence, Undetectable Alignment
3:Blindness/Deafness, Deeper Darkness, Find Traps, Meld into Stone, Obscure Object
4:Discern Lies
5:Symbol of Sleep
6:Mass Eagle's Splendor, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Persuasion
7:Ethereal Jaunt, Symbol of Stunning
8:Symbol of Insanity
9:Etherealness

War:

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1:Bane, Bless, Cause Fear, Divine Favor*, Magic Stone, Magic Weapon, Shield of Faith
2:Doom, Inflict Light Wounds, Aid, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Shatter, Shield Other, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon
3:Align Weapon, Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Magic Vestment, Prayer
4:Bestow Curse, Inflict Serious Wounds, Divine Power*, Greater Magic Weapon
5:Flame Strike, Inflict Critical Wounds, Righteous Might*
6:Mass Bear's Endurance, Blade Barrier, Mass Bull's Strength, Greater Dispel Magic, Heroes' Feast, Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Slay Living
7:Harm, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds, Symbol of Stunning
8:Mass Inflict Serious Wounds
9:Mass Inflict Critical Wounds, Soul Bind, Symbol of Death

*For war-domain clerics only

Water:

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1:Bless Water, Curse Water, Obscuring Mist
2:Resist Energy*
3:Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Protection from Energy*, Summon Monster III**, Water Breathing, Water Walk
4:Control Water, Dismissal~, Lesser Planar Ally**, Summon Monster IV
5:Plane Shift (to water-dominant planes only), Summon Monster V
6:Banishment~, Greater Glyph of Warding (blast glyph*), Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VI**
7:Summon Monster VII**
8:Greater Planar Ally**, Summon Monster VIII**
9:Gate**, Storm of Vengeance, Summon Monster IX**

*Acid or Cold only
**As a water spell only
~Fire creatures only

Universal:

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0:All Cantrips

1:Cure Light Wounds, Remove Fear

2:Comprehend Languages, Delay Poison, Make Whole, Owl's Wisdom, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Remove Paralysis, Lesser Restoration, Sanctuary, Status

3:Augury, Calm Emotions, Continual Flame, Cure Moderate Wounds, Darkness, Eagle's Splendor, Enthrall, Gentle Repose, Helping Hand, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Resist Energy, Silence, Spiritual Weapon

4:Create Food and Water, Cure Serious Wounds, Daylight, Death Ward, Deeper Darkness, Dimensional Anchor, Dispel Magic, Freedom of Movement, Imbue with Spell Ability, Invisibility Purge, Locate Object, Neutralize Poison, Protection from Energy, Sending, Tongues

5:Atonement, Commune, Cure Critical Wounds, Divination, Plane Shift (deity's home plane and cleric's native plane only), Restoration, Scrying, Spell Immunity

6:Break Enchantment, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Raise Dead, True Seeing

7:Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Greater Dispel Magic, Geas/Quest, Heal, Word of Recall

8:Antimagic Field, Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Refuge, Greater Scrying

9:Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Dimensional Lock, Miracle, Greater Spell Immunity

In addition, there are a few other spells that need fixing:

-The more general the question asked from a Divination spell, the more cryptic the answer. In particular, using it to determine what spells should be prepared for a given day will be of minimal use at best.

-Divine Power is replaced by the Pathfinder version: The enhancement bonus to STR and change to BAB are replaced by a luck bonus equal to 1/3 your level (maximum 6) to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and Strength-based ability and skill checks and by a bonus attack similar (and nonstacking) to that granted by Haste. The bonus hit points stay where they are.

-When Forbiddance is granted by an alignment domain, only those alignments shared by the caster and his deity count. When the caster channels negative energy, unholy water is used instead of holy water. (This is really just because it makes sense.)

-Spells found as wizard spells were dealt with in the wizard section; spells found as cleric domain spells and as druid spells will be dealt with when I do the druid fix.
2011-11-18, 02:14 PM
bloodtide

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

What I find amazing about your 'fix', is this is the way clerics were in 2E. Back in 2E each cleric got 6-10 spheres(plus 3-4 minor ones), that were lists of spells, and only those spells. So a cleric of Zeus would not even have close to the same spells as a cleric of Aphrodite. Even more so were specialty priests that let you customize your cleric even more to be specialized only for your god(So like a priest of Zeus could call lightning 1/d as a spell like ability).

Want to guess what happened?

Yup, everyone whined and complained that most of the cleric specialty priests were useless. Only the gods of war or weather or destruction got the cool combat stuff, if you picked a god of peace or love or family you could not cause massive death and destruction. And people endlessly complained that there favorite god/goddess was not cool enough.

So 3E dumped the whole specially idea, and made all clerics generic with only a handful of special spells. It's only fair that no matter what god you pick, you should get the same spells. After all the goddess of love would want you to cast earthquake just as much as the god of destruction.

It's nice to see things come full circle, but few will like this fix, as it will take away the cool spells from their favorite god.

But only 4 domains is a bit limiting. You might want to go the 2E route and add in lesser domains of 4th level and under.
2011-11-18, 03:34 PM
Yitzi

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodtide

What I find amazing about your 'fix', is this is the way clerics were in 2E. Back in 2E each cleric got 6-10 spheres(plus 3-4 minor ones), that were lists of spells, and only those spells.

Maybe I heard about that and even though I didn't remember it it inspired this.

Quote:

Yup, everyone whined and complained that most of the cleric specialty priests were useless.

That's part of why in mine, the most essential cleric spells go in the "universal" domain. (Most of that, though, is to ensure that nearly every party has someone who can provide the essential spells.) So there are some commonalities between them.

Quote:

Only the gods of war or weather or destruction got the cool combat stuff, if you picked a god of peace or love or family you could not cause massive death and destruction.

The answer, of course, is to give those superior abilities in other areas. More to the point, if you want to cause massive death and destruction why are you playing a cleric of a god of peace or love or family?

Quote:

And people endlessly complained that there favorite god/goddess was not cool enough.

If a deity's domains lack cool spells, then either their domains don't match their abilities, or they need new spells in line with their domains (perfectly fixable), or they really aren't cool and why are they the favorite of someone who cares about "coolness"?

Quote:

It's nice to see things come full circle

Thanks.

Quote:

but few will like this fix, as it will take away the cool spells from their favorite god.

Not really. Their favorite god will presumably be one associated with things that they find cool, so most of the cool spells (as they see it) will stay with that god.

Quote:

But only 4 domains is a bit limiting.

Not really; if you look, most domains have several spells associated with them at each level (and of course "universal" has quite a lot), so there's a pretty decent spell selection.

Essentially, I folded "minor domains" into the domains they're associated with by just adding to the spells of the "major domains", usually at +1 spell level.
2011-11-18, 04:54 PM
bloodtide

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yitzi

That's part of why in mine, the most essential cleric spells go in the "universal" domain. (Most of that, though, is to ensure that nearly every party has someone who can provide the essential spells.) So there are some commonalities between them.

I'm a bit torn on 'universal spells'. While every cleric should have say Commune, it get a bit more gray saying every cleric must have say repel vermin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yitzi

The answer, of course, is to give those superior abilities in other areas. More to the point, if you want to cause massive death and destruction why are you playing a cleric of a god of peace or love or family?

Good point, people are just strange(''why can't my cleric of peace do 100d100 damage per round?"). There was a lack of balance in a lot of old cleric classes...one got Earthquake 3/d and one got enthrall 3/d.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yitzi

Essentially, I folded "minor domains" into the domains they're associated with by just adding to the spells of the "major domains", usually at +1 spell level.

I see. Maybe minor domains don't have much use.
2011-11-19, 08:28 PM
Yitzi

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodtide

I'm a bit torn on 'universal spells'. While every cleric should have say Commune, it get a bit more gray saying every cleric must have say repel vermin.

To tell the truth, I'm not really sure why I added that one. It must have been a mistake, I'll remove it (and Enthrall) now. Thanks.
2011-11-19, 09:20 PM
bloodtide

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yitzi

To tell the truth, I'm not really sure why I added that one. It must have been a mistake, I'll remove it (and Enthrall) now. Thanks.

Er, well wait...

I think every cleric should have Enthrall. That does fit nicely into the idea of a cleric getting up on a pulpit and giving a sermon. All clerics should be able to do that.
2011-11-19, 11:44 PM
Yitzi

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodtide

Er, well wait...

I think every cleric should have Enthrall. That does fit nicely into the idea of a cleric getting up on a pulpit and giving a sermon. All clerics should be able to do that.

I suppose that makes sense. Of course, it's only a few domains (Law and Trickery) that give it at level 2 rather than 3.
2011-11-20, 04:30 PM
DiBastet

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yitzi

Maybe I heard about that and even though I didn't remember it it inspired this

...urge to kil.... rising...

Now, seriously, I enjoy this one. As the other poster, I always liked clerics having acess to spells that were mostly spells of their god's portfolio.

As you, that made your universal domain, i also choose a list of spells that all clerics would be able to use. mostly spells of smiting the unfaithful, healing, taking care of souls (not necessarily undead, but souls) and spreading the word to the masses, and then clerics can use only spells of their deities' domains. Very similar.

All in all, this could have saved me the work of designing very much the same thing almost a year ago.

Good job.
2011-11-20, 04:49 PM
jiriku

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodtide

Yup, everyone whined and complained that most of the cleric specialty priests were useless.

To be fair, that's because the general priest had access to almost every domain, so playing a specialty priest of any kind was a straight nerf.

Sphere- or domain-based casting is definitely a solid way to nerf the cleric while preserving (or even improving) the flavor. It's just a daunting task, with so many spells in 3.5.
2011-11-20, 06:09 PM
The Troubadour

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodtide

After all the goddess of love would want you to cast earthquake just as much as the god of destruction.

Fun fact: Poseidon, in addition to being the god of the seas, was also the god of horses and earthquakes. So, depending on the setting, I think it would be perfectly fine for a goddess of love to be associated with earthquakes.
Besides, no matter their mythological association, I think every god should have the power to cause a large amount of destruction to show their displeasure... Which means so should their clerics.

As for the fix itself, I like it, myself. I had been toying with doing something like that myself (partly because I wanted to lower the Cleric's overall power, but mostly because I wanted to emphasize the differences between the priesthoods of different gods), but then I converted over to 4th Edition and never got around to doing it. :-)
2011-11-20, 06:17 PM
Yitzi

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiBastet

...urge to kil.... rising...

What?

Quote:

All in all, this could have saved me the work of designing very much the same thing almost a year ago.

Well, except of course that I hadn't made this a year ago.

Quote:

Sphere- or domain-based casting is definitely a solid way to nerf the cleric while preserving (or even improving) the flavor. It's just a daunting task, with so many spells in 3.5.

Fortunately, restricting it to Core makes it somewhat less daunting (although it still took me quite a while).

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Troubadour

Besides, no matter their mythological association, I think every god should have the power to cause a large amount of destruction to show their displeasure... Which means so should their clerics.

In a sense, they (at least the high-level ones) do: A level 17 cleric can cast Miracle to imitate any level 7 spell of any class (including cleric spells not associated with their domain.)
2011-11-20, 08:45 PM
bloodtide

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Troubadour

Fun fact: Poseidon, in addition to being the god of the seas, was also the god of horses and earthquakes. So, depending on the setting, I think it would be perfectly fine for a goddess of love to be associated with earthquakes.
Besides, no matter their mythological association, I think every god should have the power to cause a large amount of destruction to show their displeasure... Which means so should their clerics.

Sure every god can cause destruction, but that does not mean everyone should cast earthquake or cometfall. A goddess of love can cause a lot of destruction by messing with love, for example. Just think of a whole army, all love struck and at home when an invasion happens for example.

The trick for this fix, is to add more powerful 'destruction' type spells for each of the domains. And, for that matter, to add more flavor spells to each domain.
2011-11-20, 10:47 PM
Yitzi

Re: Cleric fix/rework (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloodtide

Sure every god can cause destruction, but that does not mean everyone should cast earthquake or cometfall. A goddess of love can cause a lot of destruction by messing with love, for example. Just think of a whole army, all love struck and at home when an invasion happens for example.

The trick for this fix, is to add more powerful 'destruction' type spells for each of the domains. And, for that matter, to add more flavor spells to each domain.

That much is really more than I'm interested in doing, especially as IIRC all the deities in the PHB have access to enough "powerful" domains for sufficient impressive capability. (Not always flat-out destruction; some of them prefer more subtle or supportive stuff.) Note, for instance, that every alignment domain grants Gate; while it has been nerfed from its original (horribly broken) form, it's still quite nice. And every deity who's not TN gets at least one alignment domain.