Good friend, bad GM/Player, what would you do?

Inspired by a post I read, I decided to tell my story. We have a good friend at our table, he is kind, he is noble, I have no complaints about him in a personal way.

The problem is that as a player, he is terrible, lacking any ideas and always failing to get the most obvious clues, portraying all his characters the same way and always confronting the rest of the party because his character always wants to take another course of action (which most of the time is the dumbest one).

So far, no big deal, but to avoid burnout in our group, we switch the GM role each 10 sessions or so and as you may have guessed, if he is bad as a player, he is a catastrophe as a GM. No, I’m not being excessive, he runs the kind of sessions that make you wonder if RPGs are horrible indeed, the kind that you would rather clean the house or catch up with your paperwork. He is more like a storyteller rather than a GM, so It’s more like we are all just listening to him and the only input he expects from us are things like “aha” or “yes I do that” and making like three rolls during the whole session. A friend who was invited to this group got so upset by this style of GMing, that he spoke out loud “Seriously, if you don’t improve your GM I’m leaving the group, I can’t stand the way you run the game” (and he left some sessions afterwards).

We have tried everything, feedback, asking him to read the manuals, facilitating him props, bla, bla, bla. But he has barely improved in several years. The worst is that he likes and enjoys GMing (or his concept of GMing), so it would be a big blow just to skip him from the GM role.

We don’t want to lose him as a friend and RPGing is mostly the only time that we hang out, but his GMing is a true torment.

What would you do? The sessions are held at my place, so also consider that.

Sounds like he doesn't really allow for allot of player agency, does he regularly take control of aspects of your characters and things?

If so, it might be a good idea to tell him:
(I had to do this with my best friend when he was up to bat)
"Look, you control the story, but never my character, ever. Even if there is only one option, it's still my choice to take it"
Another thing we had an issue with was that he had HIS story, and continually was railroading us by only giving us one option, so when he gave me a quest giver who was being a d*ck....I ignored the quest and went and did something else, what I learned was that he is a better DM when he is forced to improvise. things got messy, and we ran into villains we were (by story) never supposed to see. (Watching us from buildings, one of is rolled a nat and all hell broke loose)

Also, do you prompt your own rolls or wait to be asked? You should be just going "I'm taking a spot to find [X]!" Try not waiting for a prompt, he might pick up on that.

Maybe he isn't that bad when he is forced out of his comfort zone.

Info I think might help:

What are his strengths as a DM?

Is his story good, but player involvement has been sacrificed for it?

Has he tried more sandbox style gaming?

Is he creative with NPC making or are they bland?

What settings does he like? (He might benefit from extra source material)

Does the party get any downtime to mess about or is his style of story as thick as a jungle and you get no breaks?

Just removing him from the GM rotation seems easiest. As long as he isn't too offended by it, and the other group-members don't mind having to GM more often, seems an easy solution. Talk it out like adults.

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As far as being a bad player, that seems less important as long as the rest of you are able to deal with it and you all (including him) are having fun playing. Even if it's mainly social hangout with friends, with the game being mostly a medium... well, that's important, too.

First of all, thank you very, very much for taking your time to reply such a well thought answer.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

Sounds like he doesn't really allow for allot of player agency, does he regularly take control of aspects of your characters and things?
Another thing we had an issue with was that he had HIS story, and continually was railroading us by only giving us one option

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This pretty much describes him. He used to take a lot of agency from our characters (thankfully he has improved that), but usually is listening to his story the whole time. He starts talking about the background of his kingdom, his NPC’s and all his setting and when he finally comes to us, it’s something like this:

“So, you are walking in the woods when suddenly rain pours down, there is nothing around but a cave”

And no matter how you roll or what you do, the cave is the only thing that there is, so we usually go to the cave and he states that there are some carvings and asks us to roll intelligence or knowledge or whatever. If the roll fails, he asks the next player to roll and so on. If everyone fails, he takes the higher roll as a success and spends another half an hour to explain the carvings and all the story behind them. The cave doesn’t have anything else other than that, so when we decide to go out, he will railroad us to point B where there will be a statue or a building or some other thing with another clue that will trigger another boringly long monologue.

After long discussions he finally gave us a lot more agency, but as soon as we are not in rails, the story turns to daily happenings mode (until we step back on the rails):

“What do you eat for dinner? Describe it please”, “what do you do after dinner?” “what do you do once you wake up?” “what do you do for breakfast?” “are you going to do something else? If not, another day passes” “what do you do for dinner the next day”. No kidding.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

What are his strengths as a DM?

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His settings have a lot of background. He seems to spend a lot of time creating the story for his settings. All his NPCs have a rich story although none of it has to do with the players nor is his intention to involve us.

He no longer railroads but as I said, he replaced that with “nothing happens”.

He doesn’t get mind-block, he can talk all the session without needing a break or running out of his script.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

Is his story good, but player involvement has been sacrificed for it?

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Not good, not bad. The usual tropes of anime and fantasy. Collect de X McGuffins, the whole kingdom is surrounded by zombies, the nobles have a curse associated with demons, etc.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

Has he tried more sandbox style gaming?

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Eat, sleep, walk, repeat.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

Is he creative with NPC making or are they bland?

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They are all clones of the same archetype. Be them kings, priests, villagers, warriors, they all act as a curious child exploring the world, something like Goku when he was a child. Same voice, same acting, same everything, no matter their gender, age, race.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

What settings does he like? (He might benefit from extra source material)

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Anime fantasy: Claymore, overlord, tate no yuusha, Magic knight rayearth, etc. Not picky in that aspect, he loves them all.

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Originally Posted by CombatBunny

First of all, thank you very, very much for taking your time to reply such a well thought answer.



This pretty much describes him. He used to take a lot of agency from our characters (thankfully he has improved that), but usually is listening to his story the whole time. He starts talking about the background of his kingdom, his NPC’s and all his setting and when he finally comes to us, it’s something like this:

“So, you are walking in the woods when suddenly rain pours down, there is nothing around but a cave”

And no matter how you roll or what you do, the cave is the only thing that there is, so we usually go to the cave and he states that there are some carvings and asks us to roll intelligence or knowledge or whatever. If the roll fails, he asks the next player to roll and so on. If everyone fails, he takes the higher roll as a success and spends another half an hour to explain the carvings and all the story behind them. The cave doesn’t have anything else other than that, so when we decide to go out, he will railroad us to point B where there will be a statue or a building or some other thing with another clue that will trigger another boringly long monologue.

After long discussions he finally gave us a lot more agency, but as soon as we are not in rails, the story turns to daily happenings mode (until we step back on the rails):

“What do you eat for dinner? Describe it please”, “what do you do after dinner?” “what do you do once you wake up?” “what do you do for breakfast?” “are you going to do something else? If not, another day passes” “what do you do for dinner the next day”. No kidding.



His settings have a lot of background. He seems to spend a lot of time creating the story for his settings. All his NPCs have a rich story although none of it has to do with the players nor is his intention to involve us.

He no longer railroads but as I said, he replaced that with “nothing happens”.

He doesn’t get mind-block, he can talk all the session without needing a break or running out of his script.



Not good, not bad. The usual tropes of anime and fantasy. Collect de X McGuffins, the whole kingdom is surrounded by zombies, the nobles have a curse associated with demons, etc.



Eat, sleep, walk, repeat.



They are all clones of the same archetype. Be them kings, priests, villagers, warriors, they all act as a curious child exploring the world, something like Goku when he was a child. Same voice, same acting, same everything, no matter their gender, age, race.



Anime fantasy: Claymore, overlord, tate no yuusha, Magic knight rayearth, etc. Not picky in that aspect, he loves them all.

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Well, maybe he should try diverting some of that creativity for backstory towards monster building, this is something I did as a fledgling DM, and the result was that all my monsters (something that demands player involvement) are super interesting, he might benefit from that.

My friend did the "nothing but a cave" thing, and when he did, I just sit under a tree and enjoy the rain (metaphorically, the "rain" isn't always rain)
When promoted to do int checks for carvings I usually just go "nope, don't care" and "I'll eat whatever is on the menu then head out to hunt monsters!" Usually solves the rinse and repeat railroading, I've sometimes refused to go to towns when I detect a railroad, and one time I just played a Chaotic neutral battle-rogue... And when railroaded too hard, And the king came to us (the KING showed up in our INN!) To quest the ever living f*ck out of our day....I said "I purchase two strong drinks" when handed the drinks....I used them to torch the king and died in glorious combat with the Royal guards, in a burning building...
I warned him not to railroad so hard, he didn't listen.

So in-short:
Try talking with him about his shortcomings, tell him that you appreciate the story, but you want more player involvement.... Then if it doesn't come, murder the king... Worked for me, also, just tell him to summarize backstory and put effort into things you can stab.

Does he actually respond well to constructive criticism?

So he clearly enjoys it, or a part of it. Have him collaborate rather than control things. Shift his position from a standard player to hybrid side-DM and NPCPC. That way, he plays within the story that he helped create as an NPC that provides some kind of value to the party by just being there.

For example, he could be a ghost of a prince that's guiding the players into solving his murder while stopping the criminal underground that is mostly unrelated to the prince's death (red herrings, and all that). He writes everything the Prince would know, or would have experienced, and offers some minor benefits in combat, and now he can interact with the creative side of things without interrupting people's fun.

Have you do most of the actual DMing while he contributes in the creative sense of things.

As jintoya has suggested, I would try (after having had a chat with him and making sure he knows you'd like less "listen to my novel time") just going off to do whatever you want. Make a bunch of treasure hunters and, regardless of the environment, spend your time and resources looking for places to loot and making expeditions there or whatever. Make a bunch of proactive guys who will go out and seek their own adventure.

There's a cave? Cool, let's go in and roll perception to see if we find any loot or directions to loot. No? Let's go out and hunt some monsters.

Edit: Another option would be to try a more collaborative system where players can decide story elements beyond their characters' choices.

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Originally Posted by CombatBunny

We don’t want to lose him as a friend and RPGing is mostly the only time that we hang out, but his GMing is a true torment.
What would you do? The sessions are held at my place, so also consider that.

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So I was in a similar situation. However, at least in my case - he was at least a good player.
Which made me believe when it came to DMing he'd be equally good (or at least have a grasp on it).
And... I wasn't sure... how to explain it?
Essentially we were Level 1 sent to go investigate this weird energy signature...
There was some thing about going down a raft...
We get there... and there... thousands of skeletons.
Not joking. When he said, "You see thousands of skeletons standing around a gaping hole with energy pouring up."
I asked, "When you say 'thousands' do you mean a lot? Or literally thousands?"
He replied, "Thousands."
So we kind of fumbled around - because no way were five level 1 people going to survive a fight with that may skeletons. So we walked around, see if there was gap, hole, someway to get past them.
Nope.

Then we heard the sound of children screaming.
And saw what looked to be a small home burning off to the side.
So we rushed over there, which brought us closer to the skeletons.
Well it turned out not to be children - but gnomes.
So we pulled them out of the burning fire.
(Keep in mind, I have no idea why there was a house full of gnomes in the middle of a field... nor do I know how the fire started)
We try to talk to the gnomes, but they're all traumatized and explain that the hole had just opened.
So naturally the skeletons become aware of our presence.
So we try to fight - because we can't leave wounded gnomes to die at their hands.
When most of us were reduced to 0 or 1 hit point, we decided to flee, jumping on the raft to go further down the river.

And that was the end of the first session.
When I was like, "OK. So what was up with the fire? The gnomes? Skeletons? Hole?"
He said, "Oh, you guys were near an planar opening to Hell."

.... Planar... Opening... To Hell?

So when we all left, I wrote him an email (I'm not the BEST DM in the world, for sure - but I certainly had years of experience - and tried to make everything a story that the characters could interact with and build them up). So I offered some very friendly advice about how I might have done things differently.

Not only did he drop out as a the DM, he also dropped out as a player in the other game we were all in.

Basically took his toys and went home.

I've not heard from him since. And it's been over six years. Granted he was a friend of a friend (the other DM we gamed in). So it wasn't a huge loss. My only regret is, despite being as friendly as I could be... I clearly hurt his feelings.

How large is your group? Can it runw ell if he does not acutally paly/DM?

Cause honestly the guy sonds PERFECT to take the actual world building out of the hands of you people who actually DM.

Make it clear to him that he has obvious talent in building stuff, and as obviously wants you guys to experience it, but that doesnt mean he has what it takes to make fun adventures.

Give him,a s was suggested above, a role as "knowitall" about the setting, let him build the world/Citystate/whatever, and hang around, answering questions about the area youa re in.

Will help the group as a whole,a nd liekly be fun for him. :)

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Originally Posted by CombatBunny

so when we decide to go out, he will railroad us to point B where there will be a statue or a building or some other thing with another clue that will trigger another boringly long monologue.

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Railroading is the WORSE thing a DM can do. :(
I've started doing D&D Videos (Yeah, yeah, who hasn't) - but I talk about how bad railroading a campaign is...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOB...SxU0nPWiTdvEFw

I suggest spending some time playing GMless games together.

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Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb

I suggest spending some time playing GMless games together.

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I've heard of these, but never have the sense to ask how that works, instead I just stare at whoever said it like I just saw a unicorn....
So.... How does that work exactly?

Well.....

First off, if your group has the ''social rule" of switching DMs...then you should be more accepting of other DMing stlyes. Is that not part of the point of switching DMs? Or are all the other DMs and you exactly the same in every way?

If you do agree each DM gets to do things their way, then stop complaining.

If you really, really, feel you must ''do" something....why not just play through his turn as fast as you can? Instead of dragging your heels for weeks and complianing....why not just ride his railroad and get it over with?

Maybe on his turn ask or convince him to run a module or adventure path or such. They are all very ''railroady". BUT, then your group can say they have ''done it" and get "gamer cred".

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Originally Posted by jintoya

I've heard of these, but never have the sense to ask how that works, instead I just stare at whoever said it like I just saw a unicorn....
So.... How does that work exactly?

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It can be a bit of a hard concept to get if you're not used to it. I'll give an example of one. Mobile Frame Zero: Firebrands.

The premise is there's three factions fighting for control over a planet that's recently become valuable territory and you're playing mech pilots responsible for fighting this war. To play the game, take turns picking a game type: an animated discussion, a chase, a conversation over food, a dance, a free-for-all, meeting sword to sword, stealing time together, and a tactical skirmish. Each of the games has various rules for playing it out, including who gets to set the scene, who's involved in the scene, a few things on how to resolve outcomes, and how to end the scene. And you just take turns picking games to play until it gets to a point where it seems like the session has finished.

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Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb

It can be a bit of a hard concept to get if you're not used to it. I'll give an example of one. Mobile Frame Zero: Firebrands.

The premise is there's three factions fighting for control over a planet that's recently become valuable territory and you're playing mech pilots responsible for fighting this war. To play the game, take turns picking a game type: an animated discussion, a chase, a conversation over food, a dance, a free-for-all, meeting sword to sword, stealing time together, and a tactical skirmish. Each of the games has various rules for playing it out, including who gets to set the scene, who's involved in the scene, a few things on how to resolve outcomes, and how to end the scene. And you just take turns picking games to play until it gets to a point where it seems like the session has finished.

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Ok, so

4 players
Player 1, 2, 3 & 4
Are playing
You break the game into... Let's say
P1. Dungeons
P2. Political intrigue
P3. General social interaction (social encounters)
P4. Open quests and general combat

Then each player is in charge of one aspect of the game, taking over on laying groundwork for the whole party to play.
Example:
Player 1 makes the dungeons and monsters, sets up the reason and with help from player 4 runs it as a quest and player 3 sets quest rewards and things in town upon return?
And if it had something to do with the kingdom, p3 would get involved.

Or do you mean that it comes in "chapters" with each player DM for a different chapter?

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Railroading is the WORSE thing a DM can do. :(

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Obvious railroading is the worse thing a DM can do. A good DM can railroad a party without them knowing. :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by CombatBunny

The problem is that as a player, he is terrible, lacking any ideas and always failing to get the most obvious clues, portraying all his characters the same way and always confronting the rest of the party because his character always wants to take another course of action (which most of the time is the dumbest one).

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The only bad thing in this paragraph I can see is "always wants to take another course of action". As long as he's having fun, I cant see the rest disrupting play. Maybe just broach this subject?

Some people, even with the best of intentions, just aren't good DM's

If you haven't already, tell him that DMing isn't about telling your story. It's about giving the players what they need to tell their story. You just provide as many options as you can. For everything he wants the players to do, ask him to think of it from a player's perspective. What if they DIDN'T want to do that? What if they had a different plan of attack? Reward these things.

As for being a bad player...uhh...has he read any classic fantasy like Icewind Dale or Dragonlance? Short of just saying "dude you're a sh!t player stop being dumb" (Bad idea obviously), that's the only idea I have on showing him how things are "supposed to" be. That, or show him some select tales of DnD epicness, like the PalaDM. Just so long as he knows it's not about copying, those things should help.

Heck, the rest of you are good DMs or players, right? If you can, maybe he should just observe for one session, and take notes on how the structure of the game works. Hoe people react. Things like that. Outside perspectives can really help.

Either suck it up and power through his games or ask myself if this guy is really my friend.

The last time I weighed these choices I figured out the guy really wasn't a friend.

If you decide that the guy really is a friend, then you're back to
Suck it up and power through his games.
OR
Tell him flat out that ya'll don't like his games.

The first one's gonna suck, no question, but it'll keep the guy as your friend, though you and your other friends may begin to resent him and each other even more.

The second one may cost you a friend anyway.

So basically: you're darned if you do and you're darned if you don't.

You could try to be more explicit in describing what you expect of the DM and from a session. Do you expect a sandbox and improvisation? Do you expect an adventure, prepped as a situation with a default goal? If you don't want to just goof around in random caves, try giving him a template and ask that he follows it, and then you can let him open up afterwards when you are on the same page.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

Well, maybe he should try diverting some of that creativity for backstory towards monster building, this is something I did as a fledgling DM, and the result was that all my monsters (something that demands player involvement) are super interesting, he might benefit from that.

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This actually sounds like very good advice. I liked all of your reply, but this part caught my attention =) I'm going to suggest him to put his effort in monster building, that could work.

The first question I have, is this player interested in improving how well they game/GM at the table? Be honest. Not everybody necessarily is, and the question is to find out if they have an honest commitment in improving. It isn't necessarily awful if they just want to spend time with their friends and/or don't necessarily have the time to learn the game or roleplaying tricks better. There's going to be some very different advice for them, and potentially the whole table, if they are interested in improving their RP compared to if they are just interested in not being bothersome.

The second is, are they interested in their GM role? Sure, there are dozens of tips that a person can be given to help improve their GMing, but if their GM turn is more bothersome and they're just throwing something together, then just removing them from the cycle might be easier on everyone. On the other hand, if they do enjoy their turns at GM, then there's advice that can be given to the whole table. Not just tips to make GMing easier on the specific player, but tips for the rest of the table to make dealing with a poor GM more bearable. (or just making the railroad more acceptable)

Thank you very much for your answers, I’ll try to reply to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Cygnia

Does he actually respond well to constructive criticism?

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Well… he listens to it, takes notes and accepts it without complain. Still he keeps making the same mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game

So he clearly enjoys it, or a part of it. Have him collaborate rather than control things. Shift his position from a standard player to hybrid side-DM and NPCPC. That way, he plays within the story that he helped create as an NPC that provides some kind of value to the party by just being there…

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Excellent advice =) thank you a lot, that is another approach I have not tried. Sounds like it could work.

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Originally Posted by MrSandman

As jintoya has suggested, I would try (after having had a chat with him and making sure he knows you'd like less "listen to my novel time") just going off to do whatever you want. Make a bunch of treasure hunters and, regardless of the environment, spend your time and resources looking for places to loot and making expeditions there or whatever. Make a bunch of proactive guys who will go out and seek their own adventure.

There's a cave? Cool, let's go in and roll perception to see if we find any loot or directions to loot. No? Let's go out and hunt some monsters.

Edit: Another option would be to try a more collaborative system where players can decide story elements beyond their characters' choices.

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We have done that to suppress a little bit the boredom and it has somehow worked. Our players have become very wacky and spend all time causing mayhem whenever he GMs. Not a definitive solution but at least sessions are more bearable.

As for the collaborative system, I have thought of that option as well, but collaborative systems actually rely in everyone being imaginative and creative, which is not the case.

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

I've not heard from him since. And it's been over six years. Granted he was a friend of a friend (the other DM we gamed in). So it wasn't a huge loss. My only regret is, despite being as friendly as I could be... I clearly hurt his feelings.

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In my case, he is a good friend and I have spoken harshly to him in the past. I no longer feel like hurting him anymore, in fact our group always rate his sessions high on our feedback, because we all have learned that he won’t improve, so we have lost all hope and now we are kind to him.

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Originally Posted by GrayDeath

Give him,a s was suggested above, a role as "knowitall" about the setting, let him build the world/Citystate/whatever, and hang around, answering questions about the area youa re in.

Will help the group as a whole,a nd liekly be fun for him. :)

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Yes, this seems like the way to go, thank you very much my friend =)

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Originally Posted by Tawmis

Railroading is the WORSE thing a DM can do. :(
I've started doing D&D Videos (Yeah, yeah, who hasn't) - but I talk about how bad railroading a campaign is...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOB...SxU0nPWiTdvEFw

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Thank you, I have seen many RPG videos and I’ll watch yours as well. The problem is that is not myself who needs the improvement and I really don’t think that he is interested in looking for additional advice =( I’ve tried to recommend him guides and tutorials in the past.

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Originally Posted by jintoya

I've heard of these, but never have the sense to ask how that works, instead I just stare at whoever said it like I just saw a unicorn....
So.... How does that work exactly?

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Games make this work in many ways. A quick example is Valiant Universe, each scene the GM role is switch to the player on the right. There are guidelines to where the story should go, but other than that you are simply trusting that the next GM will do a good job. Other examples are mainly like improvisation theatre in which you already know the outcome (decided by the other players) and are just acting the scene to get there.

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Originally Posted by Inchhighguy

Maybe on his turn ask or convince him to run a module or adventure path or such. They are all very ''railroady". BUT, then your group can say they have ''done it" and get "gamer cred".

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Don’t see anything wrong with complaining, it’s a way to express that you are uncomfortable with something and need advice. This post is the result of years of playing through and being patient in silence. I understand that you haven’t played with him and so is easy to underestimate the problem and believe that we are just being picky. The idea of having him run modules or adventure paths sounds neat though.

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Originally Posted by Wuzza

The only bad thing in this paragraph I can see is "always wants to take another course of action". As long as he's having fun, I cant see the rest disrupting play. Maybe just broach this subject?

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Yes, this is the only problem with him as a player and is not such a big problem. The only issue with this is that we have to stop the game constantly, because this tends to end in long discussions as for why his character wants to do something completely different to the rest of the party, other than that is not actually a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Phhase

If you haven't already, tell him that DMing isn't about telling your story. It's about giving the players what they need to tell their story. You just provide as many options as you can. For everything he wants the players to do, ask him to think of it from a player's perspective. What if they DIDN'T want to do that? What if they had a different plan of attack? Reward these things.

As for being a bad player...uhh...has he read any classic fantasy like Icewind Dale or Dragonlance? Short of just saying "dude you're a sh!t player stop being dumb" (Bad idea obviously), that's the only idea I have on showing him how things are "supposed to" be. That, or show him some select tales of DnD epicness, like the PalaDM. Just so long as he knows it's not about copying, those things should help.

Heck, the rest of you are good DMs or players, right? If you can, maybe he should just observe for one session, and take notes on how the structure of the game works. Hoe people react. Things like that. Outside perspectives can really help.

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Thank you very much for your advice, I really appreciate it. Is just that we have gone through that already: giving him feedback, giving him material, advice, trying to simplify things for him, etc. we have gave up hope in that aspect.

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Originally Posted by False God

So basically: you're darned if you do and you're darned if you don't.

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Ha, ha, ha. Some users have replied with good advice, maybe hope is not completely lost. Thank you still.

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Originally Posted by Pelle

You could try to be more explicit in describing what you expect of the DM and from a session. Do you expect a sandbox and improvisation? Do you expect an adventure, prepped as a situation with a default goal? If you don't want to just goof around in random caves, try giving him a template and ask that he follows it, and then you can let him open up afterwards when you are on the same page.

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We are not picky, throw some monsters and fantasy tropes and we will be happy with that. As you say, maybe he only needs to run several adventures from other authors before trying to run his own.

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Originally Posted by CombatBunny

We are not picky, throw some monsters and fantasy tropes and we will be happy with that. As you say, maybe he only needs to run several adventures from other authors before trying to run his own.

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Exactly. If you want him to change you need to inform him when he don't adhere to your prefered playstyle. And it doesn't have to be personal, you just enjoy it more if there are some monsters to fight etc. I.e. it's not about him, but about you and asking him nicely to curate something for your particular preferences.

Otherwise, just lower your expectations and see his sessions as an opportunity for socializing, not minding the game that much...

I suggest if the only time you hang out with him is during RPGs then he's not actually a good friend of yours. Branch out and find other more enjoyable things to do with him instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb

I suggest if the only time you hang out with him is during RPGs then he's not actually a good friend of yours. Branch out and find other more enjoyable things to do with him instead.

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Do you accept the quest: "bromance"?
(Recommended level 13+)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CombatBunny

Well… he listens to it, takes notes and accepts it without complain. Still he keeps making the same mistakes.

We have done that to suppress a little bit the boredom and it has somehow worked. Our players have become very wacky and spend all time causing mayhem whenever he GMs. Not a definitive solution but at least sessions are more bearable.

In my case, he is a good friend and I have spoken harshly to him in the past. I no longer feel like hurting him anymore, in fact our group always rate his sessions high on our feedback, because we all have learned that he won’t improve, so we have lost all hope and now we are kind to him.

Thank you, I have seen many RPG videos and I’ll watch yours as well. The problem is that is not myself who needs the improvement and I really don’t think that he is interested in looking for additional advice =( I’ve tried to recommend him guides and tutorials in the past.

Don’t see anything wrong with complaining, it’s a way to express that you are uncomfortable with something and need advice. This post is the result of years of playing through and being patient in silence. I understand that you haven’t played with him and so is easy to underestimate the problem and believe that we are just being picky. The idea of having him run modules or adventure paths sounds neat though.



Yes, this is the only problem with him as a player and is not such a big problem. The only issue with this is that we have to stop the game constantly, because this tends to end in long discussions as for why his character wants to do something completely different to the rest of the party, other than that is not actually a big deal.



Thank you very much for your advice, I really appreciate it. Is just that we have gone through that already: giving him feedback, giving him material, advice, trying to simplify things for him, etc. we have gave up hope in that aspect.

We are not picky, throw some monsters and fantasy tropes and we will be happy with that. As you say, maybe he only needs to run several adventures from other authors before trying to run his own.

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Suffering for years in silence - or, worse, giving him false feedback - isn't helping anyone.

Explain to him that your group wants Combat (well, go autocorrect - I just typed "X"). Explain to how how the games he runs is not X. Ask him if he can run X. Repeat for every session, until he runs X.

That said, couple that with asking him what he wants out of a game. Try to see if you can find ways for everyone to be happy.

And this goes for the way y'all GM, too. Why does he always want something simultaneously different from everyone else, and stupid? Is he just dumb, or is he playing a different game (my current example is Highschool romance while everyone else is playing tactical basketball simulator).

And you definitely do want to watch those videos, especially as a group buy even by yourself, so that you can develop the vocabulary to have an effective conversation with detailed use of meaningful keywords.

Personally, I'd draw him a picture (or a flow chart, really), showing what his adventures look like, compared to other people's adventures. Give him visuals of (perceived) decision points - and lack thereof. Keep drawing him pictures every session he GMs until he gets the message.