Is V a weakness for the team due to the IFCC?

In particular, there are two things that come to my mind:

(1) In order to determine when to take over V's body, the IFCC are constantly spying on V. Do you an "continuous-scrying" was included in the contract that V signed? If yes, this means that the IFCC now know how to go through all the defences of the last gate...

(2) Do you think the IFCC could have lied about not being able to possess V? Maybe they wanted V to feel confident that the contract did not include possession, just to backstab them at the end?

And as a bonus question, how do you think Serini would react when/if she learn about V's situation?

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Originally Posted by MoiMagnus

In particular, there are two things that come to my mind:

(1) In order to determine when to take over V's body, the IFCC are constantly spying on V. Do you an "continuous-scrying" was included in the contract that V signed? If yes, this means that the IFCC now know how to go through all the defences of the last gate...

(2) Do you think the IFCC could have lied about not being able to possess V? Maybe they wanted V to feel confident that the contract did not include possession, just to backstab them at the end?

And as a bonus question, how do you think Serini would react when/if she learn about V's situation?

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1. The fiends can watch V any time they want. If the upper planes can view through any anti-scryomg measures at will, there's no reason to assume the lower planes can't do the same. Between the three of them, I'm sure they can easily keep tabs at all times.

2. No. Their explicit phrasing was that they get to hold V's soul, nothing more. The elf's body is the elf's rightful property, and was not part of the contract. it's possible Sabine could jump in, or potentially someone unaffiliated with the IFCC, but I seriously doubt the fiends will allow it due to the nature of how they've worked to date. Besides, taking V out of the Xykon fight is more than crippling enough to ensure the fight will be harsh for both sides, and give the fiends their destructive unnecessary conflict.

As to the tactical side of the equation, Roy is already taking V's potential drop out of the fight into account.. This is also why he's happy to have as much help as possible.

Because there's a drawback in the fiends' agenda. If the heroes can drag out the fight long enough, then when V returns to action the elf will have a complete arsenal of spells to cast. They might even be more magically capable than Xykon at that point, with how much the latter likes to spam high tier spells. If V returns at the right time, team Evil might be in serious trouble.

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Originally Posted by MoiMagnus

In particular, there are two things that come to my mind:

(1) In order to determine when to take over V's body, the IFCC are constantly spying on V. Do you an "continuous-scrying" was included in the contract that V signed? If yes, this means that the IFCC now know how to go through all the defences of the last gate...

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Scrying is not part of the contract, but it's unlikely that the Gate would be safe from the Fiends' divinations even if Vaarsuvius didn't do the deal.

The IFCC was keeping tabs on Vaarsuvius and Xykon for months, despite Xykon being protected from that kind of things by Epic magic.

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Originally Posted by MoiMagnus

(2) Do you think the IFCC could have lied about not being able to possess V? Maybe they wanted V to feel confident that the contract did not include possession, just to backstab them at the end?

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Them outright lying about the contract is next to impossible. That would void the contract and destroy their leverage.

That being said, the three Fiends are extremely powerful, so there is likely nothing stopping them from attempting to possess Vaarsuvius or anyone else using other methods than the contract.

While the IFCC are content to not brute force things yet, no one should make the mistake that they *cannot* brute force things.

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Originally Posted by MoiMagnus

And as a bonus question, how do you think Serini would react when/if she learn about V's situation?

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Depends which part.

"I'm burdened by the consequences of a deal with Fiends" would probably have Serini go "Damn, tough luck, elf. I hope you can resolve that if the world doesn't end."

"There are three Fiends who can bring me to the Lower Planes for ~30 minutes at any time, and they're keeping tabs on me" would likely earn them a "alright, you have firepower but you're also a liability, so you stay here and fortify this as much as you can. And make things that last even if you get called down, if you can."

The "I murdered hundreds if not thousands of sapient beings during a magically-empowered ego trip" part, though? Serini, or anyone else for that matter, learning about it would create some major complications.

Which makes me think the three Fiends could just reveal that to the rest of the group if they needed the Order & friends in disarray without using their "Elf on a Hell" time.

I'd be shocked if V got possessed, but I also doubt the fiends are going to pull the exact same stunt as last time. Maybe another soul splice with V as one of the souls

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

The "I murdered hundreds if not thousands of sapient beings during a magically-empowered ego trip" part, though? Serini, or anyone else for that matter, learning about it would create some major complications.

Which makes me think the three Fiends could just reveal that to the rest of the group if they needed the Order & friends in disarray without using their "Elf on a Hell" time.

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I will not be at all shocked if the IFCC's next move involves showing up in person, at the worst possible time, and revealing that.

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Originally Posted by Errorname

I'd be shocked if V got possessed, but I also doubt the fiends are going to pull the exact same stunt as last time. Maybe another soul splice with V as one of the souls

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That's an interesting thought. Most uses for souls in D&D related settings are permanent, so temporary custody would usually score a fiend nothing at all. But if they can hawk out V's casting ability for one battle, that would be quite significant if they had the right buyer.

Still, I'm inclined to think the caster needs to ultimately agree to being part of the splice to be used that way. More likely the council's only play is to remand V's soul to their custody, possibly show or say something to prod V in a given direction. Taking a party's high level wizard off the board with no warning is a heck of a power play as is.

Hopefully. It would be anticlimactic if the IFCC's big plan turned out to work just as well with no Vaarsuvius at all as with a Vaarsuvius who owes them.

The one time the IFCC has used their time thus far, the result would have been the same (no Vaarsuvius around protesting the destruction of the Gate) if Vaarsuvius had simply been disintegrated by Xykon in the six hundreds.

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Originally Posted by Somniloquist

I will not be at all shocked if the IFCC's next move involves showing up in person, at the worst possible time, and revealing that.

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I mean she already told Roy, and possibly the others in an attempt to explain the leverage and seek absolution, so the team might not be that shocked by it.

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Originally Posted by Provengreil

That's an interesting thought. Most uses for souls in D&D related settings are permanent, so temporary custody would usually score a fiend nothing at all. But if they can hawk out V's casting ability for one battle, that would be quite significant if they had the right buyer.

Still, I'm inclined to think the caster needs to ultimately agree to being part of the splice to be used that way. More likely the council's only play is to remand V's soul to their custody, possibly show or say something to prod V in a given direction. Taking a party's high level wizard off the board with no warning is a heck of a power play as is.

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My thinking leans heavily towards the Fiends next plot involving some sort of soul splice. Hence "the Vessel" which I'm assuming is going to be either Tarquin or Thog, although I'm not sure how much will be left.

Honestly, if soul splice happens again during the comic, I expect it to be an "heroic version", perhaps involving the Order of the Scribble.

Rather than a repeat of the evil one.

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

Honestly, if soul splice happens again during the comic, I expect it to be an "heroic version", perhaps involving the Order of the Scribble.

Rather than a repeat of the evil one.

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Heh. Imagine V getting hold of the shiny black gem Xykon is holding, and splicing those souls for a combined effort against the lich. souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler) anyone?

But I doubt that'll be the case. No, I'm fairly certain now that all the IFCC needs to do is shut V down long enough to fire up their artifact without giving the elf a chance to analyze and counter its magical effects. This artifact is a wild card that throws many of our suppositions out the window because we literally can't see the entirety of the IFCC's plan.

EDIT: yes, including my own suppositions, my earlier post was only taking the Order and Team Evil's plans into account.

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Originally Posted by ZhonLord

Heh. Imagine V getting hold of the shiny black gem Xykon is holding, and splicing those souls for a combined effort against the lich. souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler) anyone?

But I doubt that'll be the case. No, I'm fairly certain now that all the IFCC needs to do is shut V down long enough to fire up their artifact without giving the elf a chance to analyze and counter its magical effects. This artifact is a wild card that throws many of our suppositions out the window because we literally can't see the entirety of the IFCC's plan.

EDIT: yes, including my own suppositions, my earlier post was only taking the Order and Team Evil's plans into account.

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This is my analysis as well. Except with an epic soul empowered Vaarsuvius keeping Xykon busy for a while, showing V's character development through improved tactics in a caster battle against a superior opponent.

Hm, no, I can't agree. Partly because I can't imagine the IFCC helping to defeat Xykon without there being a world-endangering catch*, but mostly because V's arc has been about letting go of power trips, so learning to use Ultimate Arcane Power more effectively would be missing the point.


*That said, whatever the fiends have in store is probably not the same thing as Xykon getting everything he wants, so he probably has just as much to fear from them as anyone.

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Originally Posted by Kish

Hopefully. It would be anticlimactic if the IFCC's big plan turned out to work just as well with no Vaarsuvius at all as with a Vaarsuvius who owes them.

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Exactly this. Of course it's a weakness, that's what makes it a good plot point.

Besides, what's the alternative - should V never do anything important ever again?

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Originally Posted by Errorname

My thinking leans heavily towards the Fiends next plot involving some sort of soul splice. Hence "the Vessel" which I'm assuming is going to be either Tarquin or Thog, although I'm not sure how much will be left.

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Sabine is doing the vessel-shopping, so I'd guess she would try to fit Nale's soul in this role if she can.
Unless being a vessel includes being alive to start with, feeling excruciating pain and/or being horribly humiliated, in which case, yes, I agree, she's going for Tarquin.

They will use V's body and another body/vessel that belongs to a cleric to cast the spell that Redcloak wanted to use.

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Originally Posted by Precure

They will use V's body and another body/vessel that belongs to a cleric to cast the spell that Redcloak wanted to use.

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I fully believe the Fiends when they say V's body wasn't part of the deal. Whatever they're planning, they don't need it.

And whatever they're planning, Hel destroying the world was percieved as a good thing for The Plan.

The IFCC won't possess V's body. Don't forget that one of them is Lawful Evil, and the whole arrangement with the Soul Splice was part of a contract. For all their wickedness and trickery, Lawful Evil outsiders do not break contracts that they've made. The biggest danger that the IFCC poses to the Order of the Stick right now is their ability to yoink V out of the fight at the worst possible time, and Roy has already been trying to plan around that possibility.

That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

Or from sending in a look-alike substitute to do something Vaarsuvius wouldn't do. I bet that's what the vessel is.

V is a vulnerability, and based on conversations with Roy is a Known Vulnerability that needs Mitigation.
You might call this a case of Risk Assessment and mitigation.
How Roy will or will not be able to mitigate that risk (since he knows not what triggers any IFCC decision to pull V off of the chessboard) remains unclear (at least to me).
I will say that the Order growing in size (add two paladins and another cleric) is one way to mitigate the risk of V being pulled out of a fight/situation/encounter with little to no warning.

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Originally Posted by Somniloquist

Or from sending in a look-alike substitute to do something Vaarsuvius wouldn't do. I bet that's what the vessel is.

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What if their artifact thing is just a big permanent-type polymorph effect? So Sabine boinks some Evil Wizard, gets him (or Her, Sabine's not picky) to come back, and get zapped by the artifact to make them into a Varsuvius clone, so they can send in the fake to take over when the Real V is out, and have the Fake V do evil or lead the team into a Fail?

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Originally Posted by The MunchKING

What if their artifact thing is just a big permanent-type polymorph effect? So Sabine boinks some Evil Wizard, gets him (or Her, Sabine's not picky) to come back, and get zapped by the artifact to make them into a Varsuvius clone, so they can send in the fake to take over when the Real V is out, and have the Fake V do evil or lead the team into a Fail?

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That is Naleworthy, in terms of its needless complexity. +1 :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Diachronos

That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

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I think their contract specifically requires that they protect V's body for the duration they have possession of the soul. That's certainly what they did at the Pyramid. So, no. I don't think they can advertise a "body free for possession".

I do tend to agree that the mere fact of having the contract lingering, means they can more easily track V and act when they wish. Which I do think means they have much greater ability to scry on what the Order is doing as a result. Hard to be sure what their default degree of scrying capability was though, so it's hard to say how much of an advantage that is.

Um... But as to the question being posed, the answer is presumably "yes". By design. If we assume that the IFCC do have a plan to do something which the Order would oppose, then being able to remove V when they want would definitely equate to a weakness.

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Originally Posted by gbaji

Hard to be sure what their default degree of scrying capability was though, so it's hard to say how much of an advantage that is.

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They were capable of keeping tabs on Xykon & CO despite Cloister being active, without Team Evil being aware of that.

So we know for a fact their default scrying capabilities are beyond that of an Epic Spell ward designed by an expert on the topic of wards. Perhaps the world's greatest expert.

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Originally Posted by gbaji

Um... But as to the question being posed, the answer is presumably "yes". By design.

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I would go further and say that the answer to the title question is "yes, Varsuuvius is a liability relatively to the Three Fiends, but most likely not in the ways OP questioned in the OP".

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Originally Posted by Kish

The one time the IFCC has used their time thus far, the result would have been the same (no Vaarsuvius around protesting the destruction of the Gate) if Vaarsuvius had simply been disintegrated by Xykon in the six hundreds.

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Not really at all. If V had managed to warn them, they might not have immediately destroyed the Gate. Team Evil would have arrived and run into Nale & Co as they were leaving the Pyramid. Either they would have thought, with both wanting the Gate, leaving the victor softened up for the Order to go for afterwards (With Nale's side getting his dad and an entire army as backup not long into the fight)

Either the Order would end up being victorious (with the victor of Xykon and Nale/Tarquin then being defeated by a near-full-power Order), or the Order would lose, giving Xykon or Nale/Tarquin the gate (Which admittedly does have the option of Tarquin destroying it, as he said he was considering)

The IFCC yanking V radially changed the result.

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Originally Posted by ZhonLord

Heh. Imagine V getting hold of the shiny black gem Xykon is holding, and splicing those souls for a combined effort against the lich. souls of (spoiler) and (spoiler) anyone?

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Oh, I freaking love this. And with V's regrets about last time, I could see them using it to instead defend and bolster their team, rather than go on outright offence as they did last time. Zipping around the battlefield, buffing and blocking spells...

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Originally Posted by Diachronos

That being said, I doubt that the contract prohibits them from dropping hints to their allies that there's an elf wizard who "conveniently" doesn't happen to have a soul inside it to stop someone from taking possession of it.

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That doesn't sound like "shielded from all harm" to me, which would violate the contract, as would "putting another soul in your body."

mic, I think you missed the last clause of that quote:

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if Vaarsuvius had simply been disintegrated by Xykon in the six hundreds.

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Yes, Vaarsuvius being taken away in that moment greatly changed the outcome relative to if V had been there, but if Vaarsuvius had died fighting Xykon back at the end of Book 4, the Order would still have destroyed the Gate (and no one would have seen or known about the planet in the Rift). So the line from the Fiends in comic 646 - “if the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time” - points to their main intentions for V being something else.

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Originally Posted by LadyEowyn

mic, I think you missed the last clause of that quote:



Yes, Vaarsuvius being taken away in that moment greatly changed the outcome relative to if V had been there, but if Vaarsuvius had died fighting Xykon back at the end of Book 4, the Order would still have destroyed the Gate (and no one would have seen or known about the planet in the Rift). So the line from the Fiends in comic 646 - “if the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time” - points to their main intentions for V being something else.

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Well, that quote was said before Xykon lost his phylactery, which was the real wakeup call that got him moving. If V had died there at that time, it would mean that Xykon could have just as likely sat back down feeling awesome for having defeated the elf.

V dying afterwards, it was one less (and very expensively rented) tool they had in their toolbox to use.

And actually thinking about it, if V did die there and Xykon got going, that would mean the Order wouldn't have V to dispel the remaining illusions at Girard's gate. It also means the Order would have been outnumbered by Nale (with having Z free to attack whoever) and Xykon getting to the gate well before the Order. It also would mean any fight between the Order and Vector Legion would have ended in the Order's defeat too, with Laurin unopposed. (Which we literally saw happening while V was restrained)

Yes and no.

Yes, because V can be taken at any time, no because Roy is well-aware of that limitation and is certainly doing his best to minimize the impact of that eventual disappearance.

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

They were capable of keeping tabs on Xykon & CO despite Cloister being active, without Team Evil being aware of that.

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I don't doubt that they may have access to epic level scrying (Eugene and Roy did when Roy was dead), but I'll also point out that they were scrying on V, and not on Team Evil directly.

So that entire scene can't be taken as evidence that they do have the ability to scry on TE anytime they want, even (especially?) within a cloister effect, since they were actually scrying on V and not TE. It certainly can't be used as evidence in opposition to the notion that the deal allows them greater ability to track and scry on V than they would have otherwise (which is what I have proposed). Which is relevant when considering whether the very fact that they have that deal in place with V might mean that they can scry into the Final Dungeon itself (which is also what I was talking about).

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

So we know for a fact their default scrying capabilities are beyond that of an Epic Spell ward designed by an expert on the topic of wards. Perhaps the world's greatest expert.

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Sure. But scrying in D&D typically is on a "creature", not on a "place". The default game rules don't specify restrictions in terms of how well shielded a location is versus how powerful the spell is (though it's implied via other magic). But, we can assume that a "well shielded location" can only be scried upon if one both has a powerful enough scrying magic *and* a person they know well and/or have some connection to (or body/soul part of maybe) is present in that location. So the deal with V would allow them to scry into the Final Dungeon (or say the cloister effect), because of their strong connection to V. It's possible that they don't have a sufficiently strong connection to any member of Team Evil to have done the same (either scry into the cloister area *or* into the Final Dungeon).

They might very well literally have no way to target something (like a gate spell maybe) into the Final Dungeon without first having "a creature" that they have a sufficiently strong connection to already located within said Final Dungeon. So the deal with V serves not just the function of being able to manipulate events to ensure some sort of Final Conflict occurs at the Final Gate in the Final Dungeon (that's a lot of capitalization!), but also allows them to actually scry the area while that conflict occurs so that they may intervene in a way they might not have been able to otherwise.

Remember. It's not just whether you have the power to overcome some magic defensese. You also have to have some means to target it in the first place. So until V steps into the Final Dungeon, they have no idea where to look. Once V does go in there, they can see everything inside, and know where it physically is, and can presumably do other things as a result. Also, the connection formed by the deal may act as some sort of power channel, allowing them to target an area they might otherwise not be able to penetrate either. Same idea applies. Maybe the area is sealed off to gate magic normallly, but because they have already slipped someone inside with an active "link" to them, which already allows them to swap something in/out (V's soul), they can piggyback on that same connetion to project other spells into the same location where V's body is. That's a bit more speculative, but IMO fits and makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Mic_128

And actually thinking about it, if V did die there and Xykon got going, that would mean the Order wouldn't have V to dispel the remaining illusions at Girard's gate. It also means the Order would have been outnumbered by Nale (with having Z free to attack whoever) and Xykon getting to the gate well before the Order. It also would mean any fight between the Order and Vector Legion would have ended in the Order's defeat too, with Laurin unopposed. (Which we literally saw happening while V was restrained)

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Sure. More significantly, the IFCC would not have had any ability to manipulate things. We can certainly say how things could have gone based on what we know did happen, but the IFCC could not have assumed that any of those things went the way they wanted. There's a host of variables in terms of what different groups would have done differently if V had died in the attack on Xykon. Would the Order have done things the same? How would a number of events along the way have played out differently? Might they not have even discovered the location of the pyramid? Let's not forget that it was V who noticed the "us" comment in the recorded message at the false location, which lead them to arrive at Bleedingham in the first place, on the assumption that someone just won a large bet and would be showing up at a large city to spend the money. It's also hard to say how much more time TE spent in Gobotopia as a result of that attack versus if V had died. The attack itself spurred Xykon to get moving on the next gate, despite Redcloak wanting more information about the rifts himself. But it's quite possible to argue that had V died in the atttack and Xykon *not* lost his philactery in the combat, then TE would have teleported to Girard's pyramid much much sooner than they did in the story, meaning they likely would have taken possession of it long before the Order had a chance to get anywhere near it.

The variations created if V was killed there to the story are far far greater than just what happened at the pyramid, in terms of direct conflict between the Order and the LG and TE. I'm just not sure how much value there is in examining this. It would certainly be "different", but not just in any single way. I do suspect that the IFCC were correct in their assessment that if V had died during that fight, then everything they had done would have been made worthless. It's clear they went to quite a bit of effort to get V to take that deal. We kinda do have to assume they have plans for it beyond just being able to yank V out of the game when they want (though that's certainly enough power for them to influence things).