Fisticuffs

I want to start by saying thst I am well aware that this guy is nowhere near optimized, but our group doesn't do min-maxing. I just wanted to see what other's thought about this, and if it seems unplayable.

I kinda want to play a brawler that fights unarmed, but don't want to play a monk. I figured that the unarmed fighting style would work. I talked to the DM, and he is allowing unarmed attacks (with the unarmed fighting style) to count as non-light weapon attacks. He also said he'd be good with giving me means of 'magicking' my attacks (magic gauntlets/knuckle dusters/etc) as we go through the campaign and it becomes necessary.

Anyway, I was thinking of being variant human and taking the duel wielding feat. I was also thinking of going Psi Warrior for the cool flavor.

At 6th level (after getting 18 str) I was also thinking of getting the TWF style (via a feat) for the little boost to the offhand attack.

So, just how awful is this in a casual setting...?

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Originally Posted by Paladin777

I want to start by saying thst I am well aware that this guy is nowhere near optimized, but our group doesn't do min-maxing. I just wanted to see what other's thought about this, and if it seems unplayable.

I kinda want to play a brawler that fights unarmed, but don't want to play a monk. I figured that the unarmed fighting style would work. I talked to the DM, and he is allowing unarmed attacks (with the unarmed fighting style) to count as non-light weapon attacks. He also said he'd be good with giving me means of 'magicking' my attacks (magic gauntlets/knuckle dusters/etc) as the need arises

Anyway, I was thinking of being variant human and taking the duel wielding feat. I was also thinking of going Psi Warrior for the cool flavor.

At 6th level (after getting 18 str) I was also thinking of getting the TWF style (via a feat) for the little boost to the offhand attack.

So, just how awful is this in a casual setting...?

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Not awful at all.

In fact it's notably better than regular TWF builds.

Also, with the Deck of Many Things boo, there are now official, WotC-approved boost-your-unarmed-strikes magic handwarps.

This seems like a really fun build - in fact, counting unarmed strikes as non-light weapons (making it compatible with TWF) is something I think the game should just have.

My suggestion though - take
1st: duel wielder, TWF fighting style
4th: tavern brawler (17 str)
6th: crusher (18 str)
8th: unarmed fighting style

OK if you're playing from 1st I'm not sure how viable this is lol. You'd do 4 damage with each hit. But at 4th, you have an easy grapple as well as a d4 unarmed strike. At 6 you can knock people back with your punches. I think you kinda need to start at 4+ to go this route.

Idk if the levels/order quite works out, but the idea is if you're going to be punching things, you're not gonna do a ton of damage anyway, so better to stack other things like grappling and movement to act as a battlefield controller of sorts.

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Originally Posted by Skrum

This seems like a really fun build - in fact, counting unarmed strikes as non-light weapons (making it compatible with TWF) is something I think the game should just have.

My suggestion though - take
1st: duel wielder, TWF fighting style
4th: tavern brawler (17 str)
6th: crusher (18 str)
8th: unarmed fighting style

OK if you're playing from 1st I'm not sure how viable this is lol. You'd do 4 damage with each hit. But at 4th, you have an easy grapple as well as a d4 unarmed strike. At 6 you can knock people back with your punches. I think you kinda need to start at 4+ to go this route.

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The grappling from Tavern Brawler would compete with the bonus attack from the twf. And Crusher is not really good, considering the rest of the build.

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Originally Posted by Skrum

Idk if the levels/order quite works out, but the idea is if you're going to be punching things, you're not gonna do a ton of damage anyway

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That's not true, though.

Unarmed Fighting Style would let this PC does the same damage as a two-wielding rapier build, as a basis. To this you can add the Psi Warrior's damage-boosting feature, and the damage from grappling with the Fighting Style too.

It's far from little damage.

Personally, once Fighting Initiate for the Two Weapons Fighting Style is taken (be it at lvl 4 or 6), the priority is to max out STR.

Then taking a feat to get Expertise in Athletics, like Prodigy or Skill Expert, is a good investment.

But the priority is to hit hard and hit a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtjGvBnAxVE

First, thanks for all the replies! I didn't expect such a response!

To answer the question about starting level, our campaigns always start at level 1, and the last campaign with this DM ended at level 15.

So taking unarmed style at level 1 is an absolute must.

I've been considering Tavern Brawler, and then taking Skill Expert for the combined str boost to 18, as well as expertise in Athletics, but I've been on the fence. If I do go with it, I'd be tempted to take it at level 1, and leave the TWF for later.

For what it's worth, the progression I've been leaning toward is as follows.

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 16 (willing to listen if people think it's too high, even for psi warrior)
Wis 8
Cha 8

Unarmed fighting style @lvl 1
Lvl 1 (human): dual wielder- for the extra AC and the ability to duel wield fists (drawing weapons is irrelevant for this guy)!
Lvl 4: +2 str for 18
Lvl 6: Combat Initiate- TWF (extra damage)
Lvl 8: +2 str for 20

Past that I don't know.

I'm willing to hear any advice, other than to just go monk! XD

Edit: I do plan on at least going Ftr 11for the 2nd extra attack!

I'd go up to level 11 fighter for the additional extra attack. Then I'd consider paladin and as the DM if punch-smites are allowed.

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Originally Posted by Paladin777

First, thanks for all the replies! I didn't expect such a response!

To answer the question about starting level, our campaigns always start at level 1, and the last campaign with this DM ended at level 15.

So taking unarmed style at level 1 is an absolute must.

I've been considering Tavern Brawler, and then taking Skill Expert for the combined str boost to 18, as well as expertise in Athletics, but I've been on the fence. If I do go with it, I'd be tempted to take it at level 1, and leave the TWF for later.

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Tavern Brawler + Skill Expert can be a good path to take, but if you do that then it's best to not invest anything in the "two weapon fighting but with fists" path. Either of those paths would work well, but not together.

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Originally Posted by Paladin777

For what it's worth, the progression I've been leaning toward is as follows.

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 16 (willing to listen if people think it's too high, even for psi warrior)
Wis 8
Cha 8

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That Wisdom is a big weak spot, and yeah, while INT is great for a Psi Warrior, it doesn't pay off much to have it that high that early.

Also DEX is a better dump stat, since you're going STR.


Personally I would more go:

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 15 (To improve with a feat like Telepathic later, for example)
Wis 10
Cha 10

But that's just my personal tastes.

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Originally Posted by Paladin777

Unarmed fighting style @lvl 1
Lvl 1 (human): dual wielder- for the extra AC and the ability to duel wield fists (drawing weapons is irrelevant for this guy)!
Lvl 4: +2 str for 18
Lvl 6: Combat Initiate- TWF (extra damage)
Lvl 8: +2 str for 20

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I think taking TWF at lvl 4 could be better, but that also is a question of taste.

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Originally Posted by Paladin777

Edit: I do plan on at least going Ftr 11for the 3rd extra attack!

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If you go Fighter 11 I think it'd be worth to go Fighter 12 for the ASI (which you can spend on an INT half-feat).


The question is: what do you want to do, beside punching with psionic powers? Did you have any opinion or desire for the Background, for example?

Or in other words, who do you want this character to be?

Fair enough on not mixing the grappling and TWF build. Since I really like the idea of this guy being a Jedi Mike Tyson more than Hoyce Gracie, TWF it is.

I see your point in taking CI: TWF at 4. It's crossed my mind, and I think I'm going to see how beneficial the extra accuracy from a str bump would feel before making that call.

In regard to your array, I definitely see where you're coming from. I think I'll take you up on dumping dex for wis. I don't think I'll have any use for cha though. It's being dumped to the sea. If anything, I'd be more willing to go 15 int and 12 wis. However, considering that 2/3 of the level 3 psi warrior abilities add int mod, I think I want to keep the 16 int.

As an aside, roleplaying-wise I kind of want this guy to be a bit of a bumbling academic that also has a mean hook (perhaps a college boxing champion, or something), and the psionics are something he discovered he had a knack for along the way. I'm flavoring the +1 AC from TWF as a minor psionic ward. Not sure about background yet. Maybe Sage. These sorts of mish-mashed characters (fighting scholar in this case) tend to be looked at favorably in our group. I don't know about his adventure hook yet, and probably won't be able to make one until I know more about the campaign itself.

FWIW, our parties tend to be lacking on the int characters (I think I've played the only wizard I've ever seem in the group!) so I'll likely be the party brain. The 16 int to start likely won't be a poor investment. We also tend to always have at least a couple of an cha based characters... or more, so I feel safe dumping that.

That said, I have no idea about the party makeup other than the general tendencies of a group I've been playing with for 12 years.

In regards to going ftr 12 for the ASI, I agree. Once I'd gotten closer, I'd have probably made the same decision. I just hadn't thought that far ahead!

Last thing, I'm kind of coming up with all this on the fly as I type this out! While I'm liking where this is going, it's certainly subject to change!

I have a fun Unarmed Build, its a Fairy Rune Knight. I took the Unarmed Fighting Style, and its so much fun. Especially when I grow massive. X3

Would Beast Barbarian (with dual wielder) with refluffing the claws into the punches and stuff work?

I have played three different unarmed Barbarians at this point and 2 of them took Tavern Brawler. 1d4+Str+rage damage is decent enough to get you by, and advantage on Athletics while raging makes grappling a breeze. You could take the Fighting Initiate feat later on for Unarmed Fighting which increases your damage to 1d8 and adds a little bonus to grappling damage. Maybe at some point take a could levels of Fighter for Action Surge and the TWF style for the extra off hand punch damage. Rage damage already works with your off hand punches anyway.

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Originally Posted by animewatcha

Would Beast Barbarian (with dual wielder) with refluffing the claws into the punches and stuff work?

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Originally Posted by CTurbo

I have played three different unarmed Barbarians at this point and 2 of them took Tavern Brawler. 1d4+Str+rage damage is decent enough to get you by, and advantage on Athletics while raging makes grappling a breeze. You could take the Fighting Initiate feat later on for Unarmed Fighting which increases your damage to 1d8 and adds a little bonus to grappling damage. Maybe at some point take a could levels of Fighter for Action Surge and the TWF style for the extra off hand punch damage. Rage damage already works with your off hand punches anyway.

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Mechanically those would both work, but barbarian isn't really the playstyle or general flavor I'm looking for, even if reskinned.

Edit: Actually, they wouldn't anyway because the DM is allowing me to count as armed because of the fighting style, and Barbarians don't get that.

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Originally Posted by animewatcha

Would Beast Barbarian (with dual wielder) with refluffing the claws into the punches and stuff work?

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Originally Posted by CTurbo

I have played three different unarmed Barbarians at this point and 2 of them took Tavern Brawler. 1d4+Str+rage damage is decent enough to get you by, and advantage on Athletics while raging makes grappling a breeze. You could take the Fighting Initiate feat later on for Unarmed Fighting which increases your damage to 1d8 and adds a little bonus to grappling damage. Maybe at some point take a could levels of Fighter for Action Surge and the TWF style for the extra off hand punch damage. Rage damage already works with your off hand punches anyway.

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Mechanically those would both work, but barbarian, and specifically rages, isn't really the playstyle or general flavor I'm looking for, even if reskinned.

Yeah I take back what I said - d8 is pretty good damage, and grappling does conflict on the bonus action with TWF (and if you do want to grapple, you can give up a single attack to do so - now that I think about it, tavern brawler doesn't do much at all).

I still think crusher would be good to get though. Knocking people around. It doesn't matter all the time, but it matters sometimes, and it's def fun/funny.

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Originally Posted by Skrum

I still think crusher would be good to get though. Knocking people around. It doesn't matter all the time, but it matters sometimes, and it's def fun/funny.

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Agreed that knocking people around can be both greatly useful and fun, but Psi Warrior get that as a class feature at lvl 7 already.

Not worth the ASI, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Unoriginal

Agreed that knocking people around can be both greatly useful and fun, but Psi Warrior get that as a class feature at lvl 7 already.

Not worth the ASI, IMO.

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Agreed. Other than Combat Initiate and Dual Wielder, I'm not sure there's any feats that outweigh a full ASI for this build. Or at least none that I want.

Edit: I could see Telekinetic feat having use, but I don't really know where I would put it. Certainly not before maxing str and getting the overall build online.

If you want unarmed but don't want Monk or Barbarian, I would recommend Rune Knight fighter. This would make you an excellent grappler, and their Giant's Might damage bonus specifically applies to unarmed strikes.

An alternative if you're willing to wait for the new books later this year is Paladin, who will be able to smite with unarmed strikes (including the smite spells) with their updated version. Glory would be my personal choice here, both thematically (their primary fluff being Greco-Roman Olympian types per MOoT), as well as mechanically with benefits like Haste and Enhance Ability.

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Originally Posted by Psyren

If you want unarmed but don't want Monk or Barbarian, I would recommend Rune Knight fighter. This would make you an excellent grappler, and their Giant's Might damage bonus specifically applies to unarmed strikes.

An alternative if you're willing to wait for the new books later this year is Paladin, who will be able to smite with unarmed strikes (including the smite spells) with their updated version. Glory would be my personal choice here, both thematically (their primary fluff being Greco-Roman Olympian types per MOoT), as well as mechanically with benefits like Haste and Enhance Ability.

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I appreciate the suggestions, but I think I've settled into TWF with a couple minor tweaks and refinement. Rocky Balboa is a lot more appealing than Hoyce Gracie to me with this guy, and I've already started coming up with his backstory of him being a scholar who is also a champion collegiate boxer... and was banned from competing when his latent psionic abilities started manifesting, giving him an unfair advantage!

I'm still debating as to whether or not it caused him to be stripped of his titles...

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Originally Posted by Paladin777

I appreciate the suggestions, but I think I've settled into TWF with a couple minor tweaks and refinement.

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Okay!

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Originally Posted by Paladin777

Edit: I could see Telekinetic feat having use, but I don't really know where I would put it. Certainly not before maxing str and getting the overall build online.

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Keep in mind, given that you're planning to TWF - Telekinetic will involve a lot of competition for your bonus action, and Psi Warrior itself will add to that.

I guess I'm definitely not taking telekinetic then!

The only PW ability that takes a bonus action (before level 15... which in over ten years I've had only one session at that level with this group, and never above) is Psi Leap, and that's probably going to be used sparingly enough in combat that I'm not too bothered by it.

I didn't say it would add a lot :smallbiggrin:

So... I decided to take Skill Expert for my human bonus feat for roleplaying reasons. He's a history professor at university. I felt like he needed history (with expertise), arcana, and religion, as well as investigation.

It will affect my damage output a bit for a fair few levels, but I did get a 12 wisdom out of the deal!

Here's my new feat projection and ability score array.

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 8

So Lvl 1: skill expert
Lvl 4: DW
Lvl 6: +2 str
Lvl 8: Combat initiate-TWF
Lvl 12: +2 str

Probably won't get further than that, but Lvl 14 would be +2 int if we do.

I'm sure no one cares, but I'm gonna post anyway!

Anyway, I decided to go risky and roll for ability scores instead of going with point buy. The DM is old-school and prefers it that way. That said, the gamble paid off as I was blessed with this array!

16 (17) str
11 dex
14 con
14 int
13 (14) wis
9 cha

Given the increase, I'm switching my human feat back to TWF, and the rest of the progression is as follows.

SE at 4
CI: TWF at 6
+2 str at 8
And any that are left are going into Int. This makes best use of DW as levels 1-4 are the levels where TWF is the most impactful.

16 int would have been nice, but I've since found out that we have a wizard in the party, so I don't have to be the only encyclopedia.