Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
For the sniper archer, yeah, I'm going to change that to ranks. Much less cheese and makes more sense.
Even ranks is a hell of a lot of bonus damage. That will be you level + 3, as no one is going to not increase it every level. At tenth level it
will grant a +13 bonus to damage, which is roughly 4d6 extra damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
As for the eagle eye bonus, I'd rather it only works as BAB for number of attacks and the amount you can take as a penalty for overdraw, dropping its ability to take feats and prestige classes since that apparently might me used for munchkinning. Oh, and it stops at +6, because being to effectively hit enemies five levels higher seems cheesy enough.
I read the epic progression rules, and they apparently mean that a level 40 fighter without any special effects or feats can only attack four times. The hell. I'm calling bullcr** on this. You're basically a war god by then and you can't swing your sword more than four times in six seconds? Come on!
I'd rather that yes, you can attack six time, but considering the problems mentioned in your later comment, then I'll just stick it to a normal attack bonus for now.
You missed my point. As it stands, there is
no way to obtain a Base Attack Bonus higher than your level. Which means that there is
no way to obtain a BAB higher than 20 and 4 attacks (epic levels add an spic bonus to all attacks, but your BAB no longer increases). There are no rules for dealing with BABs higher than 20 as the system is built for it to not be an issue
So what happens once a True Archer hits level 16? Do they have 21 BAB? Do they gain another iterative attack, a completely unique feature in 3.5?
This effect, by itself, is incredibly powerful. Don't worry about minor early entry issues, worry about the utterly unique ability that surpasses even Epic capabilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
You do know that the other attacks aside from the first and the one granted by haste are at -5, -10, and -15 to hit respectively, right?
And that adding three arrows gives another -8 on top of everything to all rolls to hit?
It's practically a given that a -10 or a -15 attack won't hit. A -8 on top of everything? You won't hit anything with AT LEAST 3/4 of all your attacks if you're fighting monsters on your challenge rating!
YES you fire a TON of arrows. But barely any of them will hit. And if you end up fighting a ton of weak enemies that you can easily hit because you're so many levels above them, well, that's EXACTLY what the volley archer is for!
Also, using one rain of arrows for one monster is a waste. Rain of arrows only does the same damage you do with one arrow. It's for tons of enemies, not only one enemy.
The -5/-10/-15 penalties
do not matter because every single melee class deals with them. They are system-wide, so they are not a balancing factor. Other classes would kill to have a
third of the attacks that True Archer can churn out every round. 4-5 attacks is strong at 20th level, and True Archers can be laughing at that at 5th level.
The -10 penalty from you flurrying all those arrows can be negated with appropriate bonuses. At level 20 you'll have:
- 20 BAB
- 6 Eagle Eyes
- 11-13 32-36 Dex
- 1 Haste
- 5 Weapon enhancement
So a +43 to hit
minimum. -10 knocks you down to 33. did you know the average AC of a CR 20 monster is between 35 and 40? So with just a little bit of work (morale, luck, insight bonuses, and so much more) even with the penalty your first two volleys will only be missing on a 1. By the way, you'll be making 24 attacks at your highest bonus before the iterative attacks kick in.
24! And nothing says they can't all be shot at the same creature.
Rain of Arrows is not what I'm worried about. It's not the problem. The problems are Rapid Shooting and Multishot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
Once again, I will say that most of the shots will miss if you maximize the amount against a monster on your challenge rating.
Seeking and Bloodseeking only works if the enemy is concealed or has cover in some way. Otherwise it does not help at all.
Yes, monsters will take a lot of damage whenever you hit them with those enhancements, but you have to hit them first.
Let's take some monsters around challenge rating 15 and their ACs: Horned Devil (35), Ice Devil (32), Storm Giant (27), Golden Protector (29).
By level 15 you have +20 to hit from you class BAB and abilities. Add in feats and magical weapons and let's say you have +30.
Let's say a d20= 10. So that's a +40. You hit all of them with the first two attacks (rapid shooting included). The next, at -5, barely hits all of them. After that you only hit on a 1/4 chance or worst. Using Multishot (which, FYI, is just manyshot, only you don't have to take improved manyshot to shoot more than four arrows at once) makes your chances of hitting WORSE. Perhaps adding one on the first attacks will give you two or more hits, but at the -10 and -15 ones? No, not a good idea to add a -4 to those. You'll have crapshoot aiming by then.
See? Not so cheesy when take in your aiming. (unless I'm missing something, AGAIN)
Edit: I changed the overdraw. It is not 'as power attack' now. I'm going to change the precision and deadly precision too...
You are missing something. It is that every other melee class deals with the same degrading bonus to attacks. There is nothing to prevent the True Archer from dealing with it like everyone else. They just get waaay more shots at the monster. And their damage is extremely comparable, if not outright superior, thanks to Deadly Skill.
Also, I think you are misusing the term "cheesy." Cheesy implies something that is technically legal but is obviously overpowered, unintended, or questionable. When you're designing homebrew you don't get "cheesy," you get "broken." As in "this is broken because it does not work and needs to be fixed."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
For you to cause absurd damage, you'd have to HIT first. Using too many arrows makes hitting hard, and so you'll have to lessen your attacks. which makes it not so cheap.
Still, splitting DOES make it doubly effective, yeah...
And that is true of every single melee class. And yet the True Archer has so many more opportunities. Eagle Eyes by itself nearly completely cancels out the effect of multishot, putting them on an even footing with melee classes...just with a hell of a lot more attacks.
And don't worry about splitting. It's a good weapon enhancement, but fair for the cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
I just gave my say on why I think it's not overpowered. If I'm right, then all's well.
If not, and I missed something again, then I'm out of ideas on how to make a viable volley archer.
Considering that all the comments have been about the volley archer, I'm guessing the Sniper Archer isn't OP after I nerfed it. So I don't have to scrap the class after all. Still, if I'm wrong about the volley, then half the class is still OP, and I don't know what to do.
So help me if I I'm wrong...
You don't need to scrap the class. The ideas are solid. What needs to be dealt with is math and execution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
I KNEW his math was wrong! Still, that's too much for level 5? Really? Aw well, I guess I'll just have to trust in your judgement. You seem more experienced than me after all.
Are you crazy? Have you ever played a level 5 melee character? They're extremely happy to have
2 attacks, and
thrilled to have 3. Having 8 is great at level 20!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
As for deadly skill, yeah, I'm going to have to nerf that. Should it be just your level in damage, or just you dex bonus?
Adding your class level to damage is
extremely strong. The feat Craven does this and is generally regarded to be an overpowered feat. Adding just your dexterity to damage is excellent. You don't even have it added as precision damage!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
The problem is, though, that I KNOW there's a feat that gives you your dex modifier in damage, but only if you attack as a full round action...which you do all the time as a true archer. Cripes.
I am unaware of such a feat. The only feat I know of that adds Dex to damage is Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle, and that only applies when you're wielding the proper weapons and in a Shadow Hand stance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
There's also probably a feat that gives you your LEVEL in damage. I think it's from this book called dragon lords of melnibone.
As above, Craven is the only feat I know that adds your level to damage. And it only does so on sneak attacks and gives you a penalty to fear effect and is still widely considered too strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
That's where I got the idea for deadly skill's mechanics.
So if those feats are legit, then there's no difference even if you take out deadly skill. Players will just take the feats and start dealing mass damage.
Double cripes.
Ideas are fine, you just need to run the math and compare it to what other classes are capable of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CrossyCross
Maybe it should be like you get your level in damage at early levels and you start adding your dex modifer at later levels? Or maybe just ban the feats?
As for the volley rules, where do I get the pdf for that?
Don't worry about the feats. Adding extra things to the class won't break it more. Personally, adding Dex should be fine, as it is roughly equivalent to melee classes adding strength to damage. None of those classes, however, are adding their level on top of that.
The volley rules are in the Heroes of Battle splat book. If you don't own it you'll have to find it on your own. Suffice to say it's a lot lower powered than your version.