The Wilder... [3.5]

The red-headed step child of the psionic classes, the wilder is an odd one. I've never played one, nor seen one in play, but I've got an opportunity to possibly play one in the near future, and I can't help but wonder what some of the thoughts concerning them are.

Their biggest problem is their pathetic lack of total powers known, pretty much being limited to a single power of each power level. There's a variant for wilders where you give up Volatile Mind (whoop-dee-doo) in exchange for the Expanded Knowledge feat four times, and that seems the smartest thing to do. But still, you're 19 powers behind the psion by 20th level.

So, what should a wilder's power selection look like? Obviously, you want augmentable powers that would benefit from Wild Surge. The various Energy powers, with their 4 different potential versions per power, seem like a nice choice for variety, especially if you're thinking of blasting. Also, Astral Construct (via Expanded Knowledge), would provide a great deal of versatility in a single power.

So, what would you choose? You've got 11 powers (or 15-21, assuming you take nothing but Expanded Knowledge for your feat after 3rd level)... what do you choose?

Let's assume that you want to try to make a wilder who will be useful in as many situations as possible, as close to a psionic generalist as a wilder can be.

Here's my list, so far:

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Level 1
-Crystal Shard or Energy Ray: flexible offense, good damage output, limited range...
-Vigor: the 5 temp hp/power point is too good to pass up. You could feasibly tank pretty well with this power alone.
-Astral Construct: nab this at 5th level (or 3rd), and beat the Shaper at his own game.

Level 2
The selection's pretty crappy for level 2 powers. One might be better off with more 1st level powers, such as Defensive Precognition or Force Screen. Some potential options include:
-Bestow Power: normally crappy, Wild Surge's free augment points could turn you into a 'psychic battery' of sorts if your party includes other psionic characters. Still, it's kind of a boring, thankless job.
-Damp Power: perhaps the best defensive power for this level. If you're going to play rocket-tag, best know how to lessen the pain...

Level 3
-Dispel Psionics: this pretty much has to be it. You could potentially become a counter-spelling fiend. It has the most utility, and benefits from Wild Surge.

Level 4
Again, kind of a lame level. You might want to take a lower-level power you missed. Touchsight comes to mind.
-Wall of Ectoplasm: surprising utility and battlefield control.
-Dimension Door: hard to deny its usefulness. Tragically, neither of these powers can be augmented, though the boost to Manifester Level still helps.
-Schism: grab this at 13th level (or earlier) via Expanded Knowledge, and break the action economy.

Level 5
Another lame level. Many 4th and 3rd level powers are looking tempting.
-True Seeing: non-augmentable, but very useful. If you grabbed Touchsight, though, this might not be as useful.

Level 6
-Disintegrate: metapsionics well, augments well, very useful.

Level 7
-Personal Mind Blank: best defense available. Non-augmentable, but who cares?

Level 8
Eh... again, not too exciting.
-Bend Reality: for versatility, this is very good, but the XP cost sucks...
-Greater Teleport: sure?
-True Metabolism: looks good for tanking, but by the time you get this Vigor is just as useful.

Level 9
Ooh! You get 2! But they remain kind of crappy!
-Assimilate: non-augmentable, but stylish, and if you kill something with it hooray.
-Stygian Conflagration: the only good negative level bestowing power.
-Affinity Field: probably the best choice, but you walk the razor's edge of stinky cheese and major headaches.

Other useful powers to pick up from Expanded Knowledge:
-Energy Missile: more flexible than Energy Ray in most circumstances.
-Reddopsi: can be a laugh riot.
-Fly: stay out of danger! No augment, though.
-Mass Time Hop: pretty much useless... but you can time travel to the FUTURE! Glee!
-Hypercognition: Defeat the plot!
-Quintessence: Perhaps the most flavorful power in the game? Read theoretical physics threads and use it to destroy reality using a quarterstaff and a pair of Ring Gates.
-Dominate: Psionics does it better than Magic. Make your DM hate you.
-Psionic Lion's Charge: If you want to try to do melee, this might be your friend. Still, you're better off playing a Psychic Warrior.

Yeah, don't worry about taking all the highest-level powers. Low-level powers that augment well can be better than high-level powers, sometimes. Except for purposes of qualifying for the Expanded Knowledges you need.

I'll mention that Psychic Reformation is often considered the very best Wilder power ...

*Removed do to the fact that I am apparently so tired I can't even read the OP* =P


-Felirc-

That's very true... Psychic Reformation just becomes a way to know whatever power you need to know at the time, assuming you have a few minutes to manifest it.

Still, I've always had a problem with that power. I don't like it, for some reason. I don't want to be wishy-washy, I want to choose my powers, and deal with the consequences!

Grr... Wilder has so much potential. It's the Tetsuo Shima class, where you blow up people's heads by getting really angry and screaming, and there's a chance you can fry your own mind. :smallfurious:

Personally I always just throw in a deep crystal blade and bow (I think it is). Charge it with a number of power points to do that many d6 bonus damage (in increments of 2). That + some Egoist powers makes for some nice "Screw you, I'm psychic" attacks. Throw in any other powers you feel like (look for nice augments or save vs. suckage). Looks like you have a decent list going there. For 3rd level, I'd throw in Time hop (lets you break up an enemy team reeeally well) as an option. If you're in a game where you're likely to face enemy psions regularly, leech field + high saves will let you throw a huge portion of hurt back into your enemy's teeth. Psychic crush is also decent. 8th level, you're right. It's fairly cruddy for wilders, but teleport is always handy. The benefit of True Metabolism (btw) is that you don't have to spend an action and you keep recovering, plus you can regrow limbs. Yes vigor is great as a pre-battle buff, but once it's gone you have to take time to renew it.

The deep blade relies on an iffy ruling though. The power point limit only lets you use a number of power points up to your manifester level when manifesting a power. So non-power based items should be able to break that with permission. I go that route because the ability when fighting a BBEG to say "Eat 340d6 damage," is simply beautiful.

The Wilder I'm currently in a party with has most of your vanilla Wilder powers (Crystal Shard, Astral Construct, Vigor, Inertial Armor, Dim Door, all that good stuff... yes, Dim Door is just that good even if it doesn't augment well), but he's also got the horribly named Celestial Conduit. Now, I'm not generally a fan of boom spells (or powers, whatever). There's too much that can go wrong (especially if it allows both a save AND SR, like this one does), and there are better things for a full caster to do. However, as boom spells go, this one's really nice for a few reasons.

1) It's a weird energy type (positive energy, but it doesn't heal anything. It always damages.) Almost nothing is resistant or immune to positive energy.

2) It damages inanimate objects, so it's good at destroying things.

3) It's HUGE. 120 feet is nice.

4) Most importantly, every power point you use to augment it gives not only +1d6 but also +1 DC. The average for power augmentation is +1 DC for every 2 points spent, but this one gives a one-to-one return and a hefty damage boost at the same time (you don't augment damage and save DC separately, like you do for some powers). This is really the most important thing, and makes it a good choice for a Wilder, as their whole shtick is "I can augment better than you."

It's still a Reflex-half, SR:Yes boom power, but as those go, it's a really nice one. Just a little comment from experience here.

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4) Most importantly, every power point you use to augment it gives not only +1d6 but also +1 DC. The average for power augmentation is +1 DC for every 2 points spent, but this one gives a one-to-one return and a hefty damage boost at the same time (you don't augment damage and save DC separately, like you do for some powers). This is really the most important thing, and makes it a good choice for a Wilder, as their whole shtick is "I can augment better than you

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Are you sure thats not a error, im dont know of any powers thats suposed to augument in the 1:1 ratio for pp/DC.

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The deep blade relies on an iffy ruling though. The power point limit only lets you use a number of power points up to your manifester level when manifesting a power. So non-power based items should be able to break that with permission. I go that route because the ability when fighting a BBEG to say "Eat 340d6 damage," is simply beautiful.

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Deep crystal blades cant be charget with more than 2 pp, "Eat 340d6 damage" is the reason Psionics got the undeserved reputation it have for being OP :smallmad:

To the OP, as i recall there is a revised Wilder in the Untappet potential psionic suplement, though i have not had time to look at it myself yet.

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Originally Posted by Zaq

4) Most importantly, every power point you use to augment it gives not only +1d6 but also +1 DC. The average for power augmentation is +1 DC for every 2 points spent, but this one gives a one-to-one return and a hefty damage boost at the same time (you don't augment damage and save DC separately, like you do for some powers). This is really the most important thing, and makes it a good choice for a Wilder, as their whole shtick is "I can augment better than you."

It's still a Reflex-half, SR:Yes boom power, but as those go, it's a really nice one. Just a little comment from experience here.

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You should know that it's been errata'd back to normal. It's supposed to be +1 DC for every 2 points spent, just like everything else. Check the Complete NerfPsionic reprinting to see for yourself.

I like Swarm of Crystals. The downside? 15' cone means you're way too close, and for big stuff you'll actually have to close past their natural reach to hit. The upside? You don't need line of sight, you don't need to make a touch attack, no save, no SR, irresistible damage (not an energy, DR won't stop a spell even if it's slashing), goes up 1 die for each power point. It may only be d4's, but it's one of the best "shut up and take it" effects I've seen.

Other than that, you've got the right of it. The Wilder is a blaster, that's pretty much all it's allowed to be. Grab a variety of blasting methods, a couple of non-blasty powers just in case, and sink everything else into keeping yourself alive.

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Originally Posted by Fizban

irresistible damage (not an energy, DR won't stop a spell even if it's slashing)

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I believe Complete NerfPsionic did a number on that one as well. I do know that there's several powers that deal slashing/piercing damage that are officially subject to DR, even though corresponding arcane spells aren't. Sucks, I know, and a valid houserule. Unlike the Energy Missile thing, which really should never have been like that in the first place.

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Originally Posted by sonofzeal

I believe Complete NerfPsionic did a number on that one as well. I do know that there's several powers that deal slashing/piercing damage that are officially subject to DR, even though corresponding arcane spells aren't. Sucks, I know, and a valid houserule. Unlike the Energy Missile thing, which really should never have been like that in the first place.

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Two Points:

1) Complete Psion did not nerf Psionics, IMO. It removed some options, it added others. Nova ability went way up, with amazing powers like Anticipatory Strike. Some of the boom got weakened, but hey, can't win them all.

2) For the OP: Dispel Psionics doesn't have a counterspelling option. It's one of the few powers that is different from its namesake spell in function.

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Originally Posted by Fizban

I like Swarm of Crystals. The downside? 15' cone means you're way too close, and for big stuff you'll actually have to close past their natural reach to hit. The upside? You don't need line of sight, you don't need to make a touch attack, no save, no SR, irresistible damage (not an energy, DR won't stop a spell even if it's slashing), goes up 1 die for each power point. It may only be d4's, but it's one of the best "shut up and take it" effects I've seen.

Other than that, you've got the right of it. The Wilder is a blaster, that's pretty much all it's allowed to be. Grab a variety of blasting methods, a couple of non-blasty powers just in case, and sink everything else into keeping yourself alive.

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Swarm of Crystals actually hits pretty hard. Yeah, it's subject to DR, dut the damage comes in a very large lump.

Let's take Manifester level 10, for example. Say Wild Surge boosts it to 12.
10d4 damage. (25 average)
Say you have a Schism active (level 9 feat), and Practiced Manifester.
Schism is Manifester level 8.
Add 8d4. (20 average)

As for inside creature reach? Get powers that grant the following:
Cover
Total Concealment

It'll stop AoO's.

Alternately, pound a half dozen points into Vigor, and eat the hit.
Alternately, wait for the beatstick to soak up the AoO.

15 feet is close for spells. However, most creatures have no more than 10-15 feet of reach.

Also, for the above? 45 damage isn't phenomenal, no.

Factor in the ability to Antipatory Strike, and now at level 10, we're able to throw out 90. That's lookin' more like it. It'll burn through PP like water, but you can maintain a one round nova strike that will end most encounters... for at least 2-3 encounters a day.

That's solid.

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Originally Posted by sonofzeal

I do know that there's several powers that deal slashing/piercing damage that are officially subject to DR, even though corresponding arcane spells aren't.

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:smalleek:

The italic part makes sense to me - is a physical attack. The bold one makes no sense at all. Imho there's should at least be a FAQ about the issue.

The problem is that the author, Bruce Cordel though it was silly that DR did not apply against physical attack spells, so he made it apply against all physical psionic attacks, without thinking about the overall balance.

Actualy BC got a lot of nerfs in that way, resulting in things like the much hated Astral contruct change.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixRivers

1) Complete Psion did not nerf Psionics, IMO. It removed some options, it added others. Nova ability went way up, with amazing powers like Anticipatory Strike. Some of the boom got weakened, but hey, can't win them all.

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My "Complete NerfPsionics" thing is partially in jest. I'm fully aware that there's a lot of solid material there, I rather like some of the classes printed, and it's hard to really hate the book that brought us the Soulbow. However, it's hard to argue that it didn't nerf Psionics. Energy Missile (which needed it), Swarm of Crystals (which didn't), and Astral Construct (omgwtf) are the three that spring most readily to mind, but I'm under the impression there's others as well. I can't think of any other supplement that reduced the power of what it's based on in so many ways as Complete Psionics. It brings a lot of new things to the table too, so it probably comes out ahead overall, but that's not exactly a glowing recommendation by any standards.

I've played a Wilder before:
For the first 4 levels vigor made me a decent tank, but after that not as much.

Granted, I was using a Wilder Fix so that made it funner.

If you want to wild surge...

...play a psion/anarchic initiate instead?

Also, you may consider metamorphosis. You can become much higher HD creatures than normal, AND gain higher DCs on Su abilities due to Metamorphic Transfer.

Also, the highest damage dealing power in the game is telekinetic thrust. Just find a way to UMD a wand of shrink item and have fun with all of those thousands of d6s.

Wild surge is also great for metapsionics. Too bad wilders don't get the feats needed to use them effectively much at all.

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Originally Posted by lord_khaine

The problem is that the author, Bruce Cordel though it was silly that DR did not apply against physical attack spells, so he made it apply against all physical psionic attacks, without thinking about the overall balance.

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This is my point: makes sense for me. But should be done for spells, too (even if, in my naivety, I always made that way both for Psionic Powers and Spells).

I was wondering if is signed somewhere, if not "officially" , at least off-the-record like in a FAQ.

Shifter Wilders can select Egoist powers as a wilder, so that's an option.

Good powers work well with Wild Surge. Schism is an absolute must via Expanded Knowledge. Vigor + Share Pain (Even through a dorje get Share Pain) with your Psicrystal, and you can make a tank. I recommend Energy Stun, because it's a double threat direct damage power, something of which everybody should have at least 1 (For spellcasters, my favorite is Radiant Assault). Astral Construct is another good power (getting access to 9th level constructs 4 levels early is fun).

If you want to go for straight up action economy abuse, I recommend Synchronicity and Schism, and then focus on whatever. Twin Power is a must, as is Linked Power.

A good 9th level power from Complete Psionic is Stygian Conflagration. Since Wilders can spend loads more power points than anyone else, if you specialize in this power, at high levels you find yourself bestowing 1d4+7 negative levels within a 15 foot radius. For that you need Midnight Augmentation and a good essentia pool, and max wild surge. At other times, expect 1d4 negative levels, with increasing returns depending on how many PP you spend.

Stygian Bolt is also good. It grants a reflex save, but it also scales better, granting an additional 1d4 negative levels for every 4 PP you expend, in a 120 foot line.

On stygian conflagration: Make sure to Twin and Empower it. [1d4+lots]*300% is nice (though a Linked, Empowered conflagration might just be better, at higher levels).

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Originally Posted by sonofzeal

You should know that it's been errata'd back to normal. It's supposed to be +1 DC for every 2 points spent, just like everything else. Check the Complete NerfPsionic reprinting to see for yourself.

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I'm not talking about Energy Missile. I'm talking about Celestial Conduit, which is from Complete Psionic in the first place. I also don't see any errata to CompPsi on the list of errata.

Yes, Complete Psionic turned a lot of powers with the one-to-one augment ratio into two-to-one, but Celestial Conduit is worth mentioning because it's not one of them. It's a new power, printed in CompPsi, that has the "one PP = +1d6 and +1 DC" ratio.

My favorite way to play the Wilder involves using 2 Metapower (Set to Maximized Mind Thrust)
At 10th Level, you are dealing at least 130 Damage, and assuming a Cha of 16 to start, with 2 increases and a Cloak of Cha +4. The DC for said power when augmented fully is 10+1(Power Level)+6(Augmented +12)+6(Cha Mod)
or 23... Spending 10 PP
Any other boosts to DC or damage is just a plus. Now consider this against a Cerebilith (CR 10 Psionic Monster) It ONLY has 103 HP, which means one hit is a kill, a will save of +10 which means it fails its save 60% of the time, and power resistance 20, which means you bypass it on a 7, or 70% of the time.
This is a CR 10, strong against Psionics Monster. If you are paired against something more MMish, with a lower will save it dies really quick.
As an a aside, you have 118 PP at tenth level, or enough to manifest this around 10 times per day. (Including Psychic Enervation)
After manifesting this power a Fire Giant (a 15HD monstrosity) is at 12 HP.
easily destroyed by a single blow from a weapon.

Dispel Psionics can't counterspell? Huh. I'll have to re-read it. That means the party psion in the last RL game I ran was doing it wrong! Whoops.

Also, I own Untapped Potential, and I don't think there's much for wilders in there, sadly. What's the opinion on the two wilder feats in Complete Psionic, Postpone Enervation and Enervation Endurance?

At 20th level, Enervation Endurance is saving you 10 precious power points when you get enervated. Enervation Endurance also seems like a good choice. It lets you delay your enervation by 3 rounds, although you can't use Wild Surge during the delay. Seems like a good option for when you can't afford to be dazed.

Is there any way to get around being dazed by psychic enervation? Smells cheesy, but it would be very useful for a wilder...

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Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty

Is there any way to get around being dazed by psychic enervation? Smells cheesy, but it would be very useful for a wilder...

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Sadly, Daze is the least stoppable condition. Very rare to find a way around it.

Drawback of Celestial Conduit: 5th level power, but it is decent. It is 120 foot line so using in a small room will destroy the walls.
Save DC and damage 1:1, but only deals base damage 9d6 (+2 damage per die if undead). Cobstrusts and objects take 5d6.

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Originally Posted by Starbuck_II

Sadly, Daze is the least stoppable condition. Very rare to find a way around it.

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He's trying to say "Favor of the Martyr" [Paladin 4 Spell, Spell Compendium].

Check every Celerity build ever made...

Easiest way IMO is a feat in Dragonmarked. Makes you immune to stun/daze, allows you to remove them with a touch.

Here's another helpful fun tidbit for Wilders when there is a Psion in the party.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/ps...ersPowersKnown

Can really help in some situations.

-X

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Originally Posted by ErrantX

Here's another helpful fun tidbit for Wilders when there is a Psion in the party.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/ps...ersPowersKnown

Can really help in some situations.

-X

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Oh yeah... that's an obscure bit of rules there. Never seen it used before, but it could be potentially useful for the poor ol'Wilder.

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Originally Posted by CockroachTeaParty

Oh yeah... that's an obscure bit of rules there. Never seen it used before, but it could be potentially useful for the poor ol'Wilder.

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Funny, it's actually one of the reasons I had wanted to create a Wilder in your Mind Flayer game; I figured there'd be lots of powers known in that group. Ah, if only I could've gotten off my butt and written it up. :smallsmile:

A couple other small things not to be overlooked about Wilders by the way are Surging Euphoria and Elude Touch: a (mostly) reliable in-combat morale bonus to attack/damage/saves and a touch AC that should be pretty close to your regular AC, at least unbuffed. With that in mind and the right set of self-buffing powers from your powers known and dorjes (or better yet psicrowns since they can be augmented with your ML), Wilders can make for solid gishes.