Need help with numbers

Hello fellow Playgrounders! My question is a bit long, so if you're in a hurry skip to the Short version. I anticipate here that what I need help for is to determine the correct "numbers" and "amounts" of what I'm going to explain.

Here's the Long version, spoilered for convenience to avoid Wall of Texts.

Spoiler

Show

For my forthcoming campaign, I wanted to tweak a bit the magic item creation process: my players never liked the loss of XP associated to the creation, so they never pick creation feats and only resort to buying MI, or finding them. While I try to give them interesting and useful items, sometimes occurred the unpleasant situation where one of my players didn't like what I gave him; moreover, while the players gain levels, it is sometimes hard to justify the reason behind the presence of a high level magic item in an area where lower level creatures dwell.
In my brief experience with 4th Edition, I liked the idea behind that magic dust that could be extracted by pre-existing magic item, destroying them in the process: so I tried to recreate such a mechanic, adapting it to my campaign.
What I had in mind is basically this.

Magic items can be destroyed and a magic dust containing portions of its power can be extracted from it (a process that in the following will be referred to as "dustifying"); every item can be dustified apart from Potions, Scrolls and Wands: to dustify an item a character must perform a magic ritual lasting 1 day, requiring a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + item CL). Magic wielders automatically know how to perform such a ritual, whereas non casters must pick the following feat:

Quote:

---

Crafting Affinity
The character understands the intrinsic nature of magic item and knows how to make and unmake their substance.
A non caster character picking this feat can perform the dustifying ritual to extract the magical dust from an item; he gains a +2 bonus to his check.
Plus, even if unable to cast spells, this feats enables his to pick Item creation feats: he is treated as a Primary caster with an effective caster level for the prerequisites equal to his current level minus 2; the same effective caster level applies to the prerequisites needed to craft items (such as minimum CL).

---

The nature and amount of the extracted dust depends on the item dustified: it has different colour and consistence depending on the school to it associated:

• Abjuration: very heavy grain dust, violet;
• Enchantment: light grain dust, golden and shiny;
• Divination: very light grain dust, very light blue (almost white);
• Conjuration: very heavy grain dust, dark blue;
• Evocation: mixed grain dust, flame red;
• Illusion: very light grain dust, sky blue;
• Necromancy: mixed grain dust, dark gray (almost black);
• Transmutation: mixed grain dust, emerald green;
• Universal: mixed grain dust, light gray.

Whatever the school, the dust weights 1lb for each 100gp of its value.
A dustified magic item provides dust of the corresponding to the associated aura; in case of multiple auras, the dust is of the strongest school, and in case of equal strength, the amount of dust is equally divided between both schools.
The extracted dust can be used, during the creation of another magic item, to replace the following:

1. the money needed to craft the item itself, up to half of the crafting cost;
2. the XP associated to the crafting, keeping in mind the equation 1 XP = 5 gp;
3. the prerequisite spells needed to craft the new item.

The dust needed for points a) and b) doesn't have to be from any particular school; on the other hand, point c) requires that for each spell the dust replaces, one has to provide dust of the correct school: for example, a character wishing to replace the Glitterdust spell must provide Conjuration dust.

Now let's come to the real question, which is twofold. In a first draft of such a system, I decided that by dustifying an item one extracts an amount of dust equal to 5% of said item market value: that is, dustifying a Medallion of Thoughts (market price 12000gp), one gets 600gp in Divination dust (incidentally weighting 6lbs).
While replacing spells in item creation, I decided that for each spell to replace one has to provide dust amounting to 500gp x spell level x minimum caster level to cast the spell: for spells featuring in multiple spell lists, one picks the combination spell level/minimum caster level that gives the lowest product.
Are these numbers good enough for my purpose? Do they impact too much on the economy of the game, or they break it? Are they too cheap, too expensive or balanced enough?

Example: an 8th level Fighter with the Crafting Affinity and Craft Magic Arms and Armors feats wants to forge a new weapon. For the purpose of the power of the item, he has an effective caster level of 6th (which, incidentally is enough to pick Craft MAaA), meaning that he can create a weapon with a maximum bonus of +2. He chooses to craft a +1 Thundering Battleaxe: the Thundering special ability has a Price of "+1 bonus", a CL of 5th and requires the spell Blindness/Deafness.
Blindness/Deafness is a Sor/Wiz 2, Clr 3 and Brd 2 spell, and the lowest spell level/caster level combo is Wiz 2, since a 3rd level Wizard can cast 2nd level spell. The Fighter must therefore provide 500 x 3 x 2 = 3000gp in Necromancy dust. Note that to obtain such an amount of dust, he has to dustify Necromantic items for a total cost of 60000gp.
At the moment, the market price for the battleaxe is 310 (MW battleaxe) + 8000 (+2 bonus) = 8310gp, for a creation cost of 4155gp + 333XP + 3000gp in NecroDust.
Not wishing to expend XPs, he chooses to provide additional dust of a random school, for a total amount of 333 x 5 = 1665gp; the grand cost at the moment is 4155gp + 3000gp in NecroDust + 1665gp in RanDust.
Wishing to achieve the minimal expenditure of gps, the Fighter provides half of the creation cost in Random Dust, for a final price of 2077.5gp + + 3000gp in NecroDust + 3742.5 in RanDust.

Do you think these numbers make sense or are utter crap? Note, I'm not questioning the soundness of the system, only the numbers. What do you think?

Here's the Short version.

Spoiler

Show

I want to change the item creation process: one can perform a ritual on magic items to destroy them and extracting a magic dust, of the school associated to the aura of the destroyed item, which he can use to replace:

1. the money needed to craft the item itself, up to half of the crafting cost;
2. the XP associated to the crafting, keeping in mind the equation 1 XP = 5 gp;
3. the prerequisite spells needed to craft the new item.

The dust needed for points a) and b) doesn't have to be from any particular school; on the other hand, point c) requires that for each spell the dust replaces, one has to provide dust of the correct school.

In a first draft of such a system, I decided that by destroying an item one extracts an amount of dust equal to 5% of said item market value.
While replacing spells in item creation, I decided that for each spell to replace one has to provide dust amounting to 500gp x spell level x minimum caster level to cast the spell: for spells featuring in multiple spell lists, one picks the combination spell level/minimum caster level that gives the lowest product.

Are these numbers good enough for my purpose? Do they impact too much on the economy of the game, or they break it? Are they too cheap, too expensive or balanced enough?

5% sounds too low to be worth using from a purely rational POV... OTOH, RAW crafting feats ARE worth using, so rationality may not be fully applying. Artificers can, in essence, recover 20% of an items GP value worth of XPs (IE 1/25th of the market price numerically)... this is more versatile and can be had for a feat. So maybe 10% GPs of the market price in GPs? It is still going to be a big loss, but it sounds like your players are willing to take it, and it is always pretty easy to throw a hive of goblins who someone tricked out in +1 swords for the PCs to defeat and loot. That sort of thing should allow you to balance the game where you want it.

Consider it as follows: To create an item without spending XP, you have to spend half its price in crafting cost (it makes no sense to waste dust on that) plus 20% its price for the XP (this is assuming a party member provides the spells). At 5% dusting efficiency, that means you have to dust items worth 4 times as much as the item you want to create. You could otherwise sell those items for twice the price of the item you're creating, so making an item via using dust for XP and nothing else costs 2.5 times the price of buying it. Most of the time, it'll be easier to find someone to make it on commission for a 50% or even 100% markup.

If you want "dusting" to be at all feasible (and also make the dust prices realistic), you want:
-the dusting to give between 50% and 100% the item price in dust value (less and selling it to buy dust is always superior, more and dusting your items to sell the dust is superior to selling the items; in between and it's only worth dusting if you want the dust)
-The dusting to be worth XP at a cost of less than 12.5gp per XP (at 12.5, nobody's going to want to buy dust, as the dust cost to avoid spending any XP will make up the difference between the crafting cost and sale price.) 5GP per XP seems pretty good here.
-Replacing spells should be far less than 500XcasterlevelXspelllevel, as you can hire someone to cast it for you at a cost of 10XcasterlevelXspelllevel per casting. So it should be at less than 10XcasterlevelXspelllevel for each time the spell is cast (in most cases, I think you have to cast each needed spell once per day.)

Is there any reason why you want to use nine different flavors of magical powder? I'd think that magical items are uncommon enough without the distinction, and if carrying around hundreds of pounds of gold feels silly, then carrying around hundreds of pounds of multiflavored pixie dust would be worse.

For that matter, how do you seperate one pile of mixed dust?

I also note that you forgot the gold component for crafting magical items. The money used to craft the item and make it masterwork (which you can do through the Craft skill, at 1/3 the cost) is seperate from the money used to enchant the magical item (which is 1/2 to cost of the item).

Is the magi-powder supposed to replace the XP cost of magical item creation, or is it supposed to replace the full cost, such as in D&D 4e?

For the standard game's exchange rates, you can sell an item for half price and purchase an item for full price. As such, you probably want to keep the same ratio - that is, you get roughly half the value to destroy an item as it takes to create one. If you are using the magi-dust to replace both monetary and XP cost, then destroying it should result in 1/4 the market price of the item. If you are just using it for the XP component, then you'd want to make it about 1/10 of market price. (XP component = 1/25 market price, 1 XP = 5 gp, so the XP component would be worth 1/5 the price in gold pieces.)

Why not simply allow scrolls to be used for the prerequisite spells? It would make obtaining scrolls and spellbooks more valuable to everyone, and avoid putting an arbitrary value on the spells used. (I rather suspect that the spell choice is frequently thematic, rather than being based on the power of the item created.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by erikun

For that matter, how do you seperate one pile of mixed dust?

---

Either the enchanting proceed can be fueled by a mixed pile and only consumes the appropriate one, you pay a team of awakened mice or halflings with tweezers to sort it grain by grain, or, most likely, Craft(Alchemy).

Since you can cooperate on magic items, dust cost should be more than 10gp * spell level * caster level (the amount to hire another caster), but less than that cost + the cost of finding the caster in the first place (in time and/or money). It would also be prudent to make it cost more than a scroll, which is 12.5gp * spell level * caster level.

I feel like dust giving 25% of market price is good, because that means you can dust an item to get the maximum dust you could use on an equivalent-value item (except to replace spellcasting). However, you could just sell the item for 50%, then get 25% in dust and the other 25% in cash you need (same problem as Yitzi brought up). It feels forced to say that you can't find dust anywhere on the market - if this is so useful for enchanting items, why wouldn't it be for sale? The quick answer is that dust is specific to the disenchanter, but that's just a crafting reserve with a different name.

Also, 1lb per 100gp of dust is a lot of weight. Using your example, you put 67.5 pounds of dust into a 6lb axe, and can remove 20lb of dust later (at a 25% rate). Magic shouldn't break the law of conservation of mass that badly. 1lb per 1000gp is probably okay, but still leads to +5 weapons returning more than their weight in dust.

[hr]Deer version:

15-25 gp * CL * spell level is an acceptable price to replace spellcasting.

Dust returns should probably be at 50% if dust is available on the market, and there's no reason for dust not to be on the market.

1lb/100gp is too much weight.

Very interesting replies so far: I'm going to bed now since I'm very tired, but tomorrow I'll thank you appropriately and post my considerations on what I had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Siosilvar

Since you can cooperate on magic items, dust cost should be more than 10gp * spell level * caster level (the amount to hire another caster)

---

Really depends which you want to be the superior option if you have neither dust nor an appropriate party caster (but can easily find an NPC caster.)

I'm finally back to the keyboard, so I can give you a proper answer.

Let's begin with...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by erikun

Is there any reason why you want to use nine different flavors of magical powder?

---

I originally had in mind to give the dust alone some other feature, you know, something on the lines of "you can throw a handful of Encha-Dust to obtain a bonus to the next social interaction", or the like, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that while it could be flavourful, it's a pointless complication. I think I'll go with just a simple golden dust as a catch-all and be happy with it. Every distinction between dust from different schools therefore falls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Siosilvar

Also, 1lb per 100gp of dust is a lot of weight.

---

You're right, it's definitely too heavy, I find your suggestion about 1000gp=1lb good enough. More gold for a sinle pound would probabily be too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by erikun

Why not simply allow scrolls to be used for the prerequisite spells? It would make obtaining scrolls and spellbooks more valuable to everyone, and avoid putting an arbitrary value on the spells used. (I rather suspect that the spell choice is frequently thematic, rather than being based on the power of the item created.)

---

Because scrolls need a caster to be both scribed and used, whereas I want the process of item creation to potentially be caster-free.

Now, to address the considerations on dust efficiency to replace spells, XPs, and monetary components for items creation, I think I have to spend a few words on my campaigns. I noticed that as a DM I tend to give a lot of low-end magic items, which my PCs have sometimes a hard time to sell: I admit that I'm a little pesky, because I've always tried to think about economics, offer-demand issues and the like, so often I told the characters "No, you can't sell all the 19 +1 swords in this small city because the market is saturated and you don't have enough buyers". This is why they embark in selling trips, often forgetting the main campaign and acting more like merchants rather than adventurers. I could just handwaive the transactions and tell them "Okay, from the 19 magic swords you get X gp", but then I'd open the way to the concept of "Magic mart" to whom I'm deeply opposed.

The effort to have some coherence affects also the item creation process, because if a PC tells me he wants a +4 weapon, I tell him that the most powerful spellcaster in the area is his comrade, which is not so hard to believe - adventurers tend to be the "best", and when dealing with magic this is especially true. Who would need adventurers around when there's a 12th level Wizard in town? And if there's a 12th level Wizard in town, why should be concerned with adventurers, even if they have the gold to pay him for a magic item? Again, I could well tell them "Okay, you contact the caster and pay the right price", but then they could begin abusing the presence of such a powerful spellcaster by asking him to solve their problems.

This is why I chose to develop a new system to craft magic items: with the dust, no 12th level Wizard is required, every character can craft his own magic items and even XP loss - my players' major concern - is addressed. Since low-end magic items are plenty, PCs have lots of dust to craft new items, and I'm covered even if I give them a reward they don't like.

So to come back to your answers, there are two points that are important to me:

1. the dust output is too low;
2. the price to replace spells is too high;

Addressing first the second point, I particularly like the input of the scroll costs as a baseline to calculate a balanced price: the price should be higher than that paid for a scroll because dust can theoretically be used by more classes than scrolls; however, 500xCLxSL is definitely too high. This price should be commensurated to the amount of dust given by each magic item, without breaking economy (yes, dust can and will be sold).

Two suggestion come up by reading your answers: dust returns should be the 10% of the original market price of the item OR between 50% and 75% of the market price of the dustified item, clearly two radically different approaches; and the price to substitute spells, that should be around 20gpxCLxSL OR less than 10gpxCLxSL, let's say 5gpxCLxSL
However, by pairing the two worst options from the players' point of view:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Return: 10% - Cost: 20gpxCLxSL

The +1 Thundering battleaxe required Blindness/Deafness, 2nd level at CL of 3: at the cost of 20gpxCLxSL this spell requires 20x3x2=120gp of dust to be replaced; said amount of dust can be obtained, if the 10% returned value rule is in force, by dustifying an item worth 1200gp, such as Dust of illusion.

---

Now, a plethora of low-value magic items, such as 19 +1 swords, will give definitely MORE than required, giving way too much dust and easing too much the creation of magic items. Probabily it's the "20gpxCLxSL" that is too low.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cicciograna

However, by pairing the two worst options from the players' point of view:

Now, a plethora of low-value magic items, such as 19 +1 swords, will give definitely MORE than required, giving way too much dust and easing too much the creation of magic items. Probabily it's the "20gpxCLxSL" that is too low.

---

No, 20gpXCLXSL is probably too high.

Replacing the spellcasting requirement shouldn't be too expensive if you want it to ever be used. The real cost will come from the substitution for XP.

Now that I think of it, though, 5GP per XP is probably too little, as it lets you craft an item at 70% of its price (assuming you have the necessary feats and spells.) 15GP per XP probably makes more sense, as then crafting an item by buying dust costs 110% of its price (the extra is worth it to some people because you can customize what you want), and crafting by dusting items instead of selling them costs 80% of the price.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yitzi

Now that I think of it, though, 5GP per XP is probably too little, as it lets you craft an item at 70% of its price (assuming you have the necessary feats and spells.) 15GP per XP probably makes more sense, as then crafting an item by buying dust costs 110% of its price (the extra is worth it to some people because you can customize what you want), and crafting by dusting items instead of selling them costs 80% of the price.

---

Sorry, but I fail to see how increasing the costs by adding dust could result in a decrease in price. Crafting our +1 Thundering battleaxe (market price 8310gp) should cost 4155gp + 333XP. By expending 5gp per 1 XP you have a final cost of 5820gp, which is MORE than 4155gp.

EDIT: oh, you meant 70% of the market price... My brain is failing me.
Hmm, so you're saying that those 333 XP paid for crafting the battleaxe do indeed balance the monetary component to achieve the full market price. In fact makes sense. So the price to pay to convert XP to dust should approximately be 12.5gp = 1XP: this way, crafting a new magic item, one would basically pay the full market price of the item, one half in coins, the other half in dust...
Hmm, I'm not sure I like it: I'd like crafting being cheaper than simply buying the item...but this would make sense: one would save money only by expending personal power (in the form of XPs), instead having to pay the full price to save his power. Got to think about it.

Giving up the items you dust, rather than saving them as back-ups in case of "rust monster stampede" (generic term, stampeding rust monsters not endorsed for any GM that wants to keep his players) or hanging on to them until you are in a big city and can sell them, should count for something though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cicciograna

EDIT: oh, you meant 70% of the market price... My brain is failing me.
Hmm, so you're saying that those 333 XP paid for crafting the battleaxe do indeed balance the monetary component to achieve the full market price. In fact makes sense. So the price to pay to convert XP to dust should approximately be 12.5gp = 1XP: this way, crafting a new magic item, one would basically pay the full market price of the item, one half in coins, the other half in dust...

---

That's if you want buying and crafting to have the same price (in other words, you think the customization ability exactly balances the need to spend spells, feats, and time to craft).

Quote:

---

Hmm, I'm not sure I like it: I'd like crafting being cheaper than simply buying the item

---

That's up to you. As long as it's cheaper than buying it on commission (i.e. fully customizable) it's up to you. Just be aware of what the effect will be, and adjust accordingly.

You see, if you use Pathfinder item creation rules, you don't have the XP cost, and people can try to mitigate the pre-requisites.

Short Version: You must make a spellcraft (or another check, like armorsmithing or weaving for some items) check with DC 5 + CL of the item + 5 per pre-requisite you don't have, except for minimum CL, that you can't ignore. This way everyone can really make magical items (there's a feat for you to use craft ranks as caster level to create items), even a warrior.

I like the system, however the % is really off. Really. You should give dust equal to the value in gp used to create the item. So if you have a 10000 gp market price item, you can dust it for 5000 gp of dust (allowing you to create another 10000 gp item), or if the dm allow haggling rules or you have the contacts, you can sell the item for a better price than the basic 50%, and have a better deal than dusting it.

if the goal is to let player customize their items without penalying them for using you system, then this is the best approach. From a balance view, anything less than 50% and it's better to sell the item. Anything more than 50% and no one sells items around, just dust everything and you buy around, since you spend 50% market price to create and gain 50%+ market price by dusting...


BTW: Cute system. Like the colors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiBastet

Anything more than 50% and no one sells items around, just dust everything and you buy around, since you spend 50% market price to create and gain 50%+ market price by dusting

---

Except that if you don't want the dust (say, you don't have the time or the feats or the spells to create the item you want), selling the item makes more sense than selling the dust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yitzi

Except that if you don't want the dust (say, you don't have the time or the feats or the spells to create the item you want), selling the item makes more sense than selling the dust.

---

I don't make my statements based on exceptions. The dust is basically the "half market price in components", and if you really must dust the item but don't have the feat, sell the dust. Hmph.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiBastet

I don't make my statements based on exceptions.

---

When the "exception" is probably more common than not, it would be a good idea to take it into account.

Quote:

---

and if you really must dust the item but don't have the feat, sell the dust.

---

That'll get you a lot less money than selling the item without dusting it (since dust sells for only 50% just like the item itself.)

How? Think with me:

If, only if, the dust is the equivalent of the "half price in raw materials", and I believe it's simples to assume that this dust is a very raw material, since you can use it in the place of the generic "raw material"...

...then why in Mephisto's name can't you sell the goddamn dust for what it's worth? It's like gems, magical gems and money! Why?

If the awser is "because the OP said so", don't really bother saying it It's a thing so obvious that the OP should review, or else the wole system is flawed from start since things aren't equivalent. It's like buying 500 gp of ruby dust for 450 gp and not being able to use it as material component because you bought for only 450!.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiBastet

How? Think with me:

If, only if, the dust is the equivalent of the "half price in raw materials", and I believe it's simples to assume that this dust is a very raw material, since you can use it in the place of the generic "raw material"...

...then why in Mephisto's name can't you sell the goddamn dust for what it's worth? It's like gems, magical gems and money! Why?

---

It's not like gems and money: Gems and money are a medium of exchange, "bought" by people who want to then use them to buy other stuff with. Dust is a somewhat specialized product, more akin to spell components.

If the OP does want to make dust into a trade good (his choice as the DM), then dusting would have to provide only a tiny bit less than 50% (if it's exactly 50%, then all adventurers will dust rather than going to the effort to find a buyer at 50%; if it's substantially less then nobody will dust, preferring to sell it and buy dust); it'd be a very difficult balance.

Quote:

---

It's like buying 500 gp of ruby dust for 450 gp and not being able to use it as material component because you bought for only 450!.

---

No, it's like finding 500 gp of ruby dust and not being able to sell it for more than 250 because while rubies are a trade good ruby dust is not.