Stuff About Ties and Dvalin in the Godsmoot

The matron walking to the council of clans in 1155 states that the messenger calls down for her every few years. But that could only mean every few years there's a tie AND Dvalin sent his high priest.

But aren't there 17 major Gods expected to vote in the northern pantheon? I know it's been mentioned there has been a tie where Dvalin sent his high priest that took two days (see 1016 for that) which means one or many of the high priests at the Godsmoot have some sort of record for being late or missing from the proceedings, for there to be an even number of Gods. I suspect the oldies, like Hoder's or Frigg's high priests.

Just an observation that looked interesting to me.

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Originally Posted by Gluteus_Maximus

The matron walking to the council of clans in 1155 states that the messenger calls down for her every few years. But that could only mean every few years there's a tie AND Dvalin sent his high priest.

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No. The Council of Clan elders is likely gathered for every major decision affecting all of the clans. Not all of these need be ties from the godsmoot where Dvalin is the tiebreaker.

—Caerulea

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Originally Posted by Caerulea

No. The Council of Clan elders is likely gathered for every major decision affecting all of the clans. Not all of these need be ties from the godsmoot where Dvalin is the tiebreaker.

—Caerulea

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The Council of Clans is explicitly not the current Dwarven parliament/governing body though. If they have any function at all now, besides deciding how Davlin votes, is very much up in the air.

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Originally Posted by Rrmcklin

The Council of Clans is explicitly not the current Dwarven parliament/governing body though. If they have any function at all now, besides deciding how Davlin votes, is very much up in the air.

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They almost certainly have some function, even if its just ceremonial, otherwise they would probably have been dissolved as a body, through apathy if nothing else.

My guess is that they discuss and manage inter-clan politics that aren't necessarily a matter of law, but still could potentially have impact, such as business alliances or managing clan rivalries so they don't get out of hand.

Since we see his crown over the door, maybe they administer the cult of Dvalin. That may not even be a big deal in itself, but still bring high social status with it, in part from the association with the moral and mythical underpinnings of Dwarven society.

The elder also claims that they generally gather to decide things that are unimportant.

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Originally Posted by Gluteus_Maximus

But aren't there 17 major Gods expected to vote in the northern pantheon? I know it's been mentioned there has been a tie where Dvalin sent his high priest that took two days (see 1016 for that) which means one or many of the high priests at the Godsmoot have some sort of record for being late or missing from the proceedings, for there to be an even number of Gods. I suspect the oldies, like Hoder's or Frigg's high priests.

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Or in most occasions when it's not the fate of the world at stake, one or more of the full gods abstains and there is a draw anyway. Or don't even bother attending. Can't imagine Njord or Balder taking much interest in less earth-shattering votes, given how little they cared about it when it was crucial.

Dvalin strikes me as the one demigod that always attends, though, so if there is ever a draw, he needs to vote. And if usually only three demigods send representatives (seven was a lot, this time around, after all), then him hemming and hawing until the council votes for him is probably a likely scenario that manages to happen once a decade or so.

Grey Wolf

I imagine the council needs to convene every now and then to rubber-stamp things that are totally ceremonial and inconsequential as part of some fossilized protocol.

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Originally Posted by hroþila

I imagine the council needs to convene every now and then to rubber-stamp things that are totally ceremonial and inconsequential as part of some fossilized protocol.

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Right but the High Priest of Mani was familiar enough with Dvalin’s quirk to systematically bring sandwiches for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

Right but the High Priest of Mani was familiar enough with Dvalin’s quirk to systematically bring sandwiches for everyone.

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I imagine that, out of all the demigods, Dvalin is the most punctual and most likely to come (being basically the embodiment of righteous law and order and whatnot). As such, whenever there is a tie, Dvalin always casts his vote and always has to arrange for the council of clans to meet because typically there are only one or two demigods present (at least one of the representatives has never seen more than three present at one time). So while it is unlikely that Dvalin will become relevant, if there is a tie it is almost guaranteed to take forever. Hence, they bring snacks just in case.

Dvalin probably does a lot more than cast deciding votes at Godsmoots, though. It's very likely that he needs the clan elders to assemble for plenty of less world-shaking reasons on a semi-regular basis.

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Originally Posted by hroþila

I imagine the council needs to convene every now and then to rubber-stamp things that are totally ceremonial and inconsequential as part of some fossilized protocol.

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I would guess it has devolved in power like the House of Lords in the English Parliament. While its power is not zero, it can easily be steamrolled by the other branches of gov't. It is mostly a ceremonial body now, that is doing dwarvenkind an overall favor by just rubberstamping stuff that would eventually happen.

It's also serving dwarfkind by serving as a sinecure to keep the Old Guard Clans occupied.

This...

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Originally Posted by Squire Doodad

I imagine that, out of all the demigods, Dvalin is the most punctual and most likely to come (being basically the embodiment of righteous law and order and whatnot). As such, whenever there is a tie, Dvalin always casts his vote and always has to arrange for the council of clans to meet because typically there are only one or two demigods present (at least one of the representatives has never seen more than three present at one time). So while it is unlikely that Dvalin will become relevant, if there is a tie it is almost guaranteed to take forever. Hence, they bring snacks just in case.

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... and this

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Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye

Dvalin probably does a lot more than cast deciding votes at Godsmoots, though. It's very likely that he needs the clan elders to assemble for plenty of less world-shaking reasons on a semi-regular basis.

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I believe too that Dvalin summons the council for more than deciding godsmoot votes, since many of his decisions and actions will probably affect somehow all of the clans.

Also, with respect to Dvalin’s history of prolonging godsmoots: I don’t think we should assume it happens often just because some participants know it can happen.

Most participants are high level church bureaucrats. It’s probably their job to remember things that happened hundreds or even thousands years ago.

Even if the last time a tie happened was 780 years ago, a halfling is going to remember to bring snacks.

“According to my church’s sacred tome of godsmoot protocols, my great great great grandfather missed second breakfast the last time Dvalin voted! Family lore says he got so hungry he almost at his own toenails! That’s why I always bring snacks.”

Edit: of course, Dvalin could easily delay a godsmoot vote much more often. I’m just saying I don’t feel like I have enough information from the comic to know if it’s once a year or once a millennia.

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Originally Posted by Dion

Also, with respect to Dvalin’s history of prolonging godsmoots: I don’t think we should assume it happens often just because some participants know it can happen.

Most participants are high level church bureaucrats. It’s probably their job to remember things that happened hundreds or even thousands years ago.

Even if the last time a tie happened was 780 years ago, a halfling is going to remember to bring snacks.

“According to my church’s sacred tome of godsmoot protocols, my great great great grandfather missed second breakfast the last time Dvalin voted! Family lore says he got so hungry he almost at his own toenails! That’s why I always bring snacks.”

Edit: of course, Dvalin could easily delay a godsmoot vote much more often. I’m just saying I don’t feel like I have enough information from the comic to know if it’s once a year or once a millennia.

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The pirest of Mani is a human. Also "I bring snacks now, just in case" implies that there was a time where he had no snack when he needed them not that it's a ritual established long ago.

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Originally Posted by Fyraltari

The pirest of Mani is a human. Also "I bring snacks now, just in case" implies that there was a time where he had no snack when he needed them not that it's a ritual established long ago.

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Maybe the priest of Mani is a half halfling.

But I agree. I does seems likely that Dvalin has done this before in living memory.

Heck, in a self aware stick figure fantasy parody, he probably does it a lot. At least as often as the oracle is in the shower when his doorbell rings.

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Originally Posted by Dion

Maybe the priest of Mani is a half halfling.

But I agree. I does seems likely that Dvalin has done this before in living memory.

Heck, in a self aware stick figure fantasy parody, he probably does it a lot. At least as often as the oracle is in the shower when his doorbell rings.

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Meh, they're not even cool enough to be a nine-tenthling.

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Originally Posted by Dion

Maybe the priest of Mani is a half halfling.

But I agree. I does seems likely that Dvalin has done this before in living memory.

Heck, in a self aware stick figure fantasy parody, he probably does it a lot. At least as often as the oracle is in the shower when his doorbell rings.

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Would that make them a Quarterling or a Three-Quarterling?

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Originally Posted by Keltest

Would that make them a Quarterling or a Three-Quarterling?

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Since a halfling is half of a human's height it would be a three-quarterling.

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Originally Posted by Schroeswald

Since a halfling is half of a human's height it would be a three-quarterling.

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Don’t be ridiculous.

A three-quarterling is five-eights of a human’s height.

A half-halfling would have been drawn with one hairy barefoot and one foot with shoe. The priest of Mani has shoes in both feet. He is, therefore, an human with no pint of halfling blood in him.

Also neither of his ears is pointy, so he is not a half-elf either.

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Originally Posted by The Pilgrim

A half-halfling would have been drawn with one hairy barefoot and one foot with shoe. The priest of Mani has shoes in both feet. He is, therefore, an human with no pint of halfling blood in him.

Also neither of his ears is pointy, so he is not a half-elf either.

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Actually, half-halflings wear sandals on both feet but not shoes proper.

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Originally Posted by Squire Doodad

Actually, half-halflings wear sandals on both feet but not shoes proper.

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Ugh, are they those guys who wear sandals with socks? No wonder we never see any, theyre probably all exiled at birth.

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Originally Posted by Squire Doodad

I imagine that, out of all the demigods, Dvalin is the most punctual and most likely to come (being basically the embodiment of righteous law and order and whatnot). As such, whenever there is a tie, Dvalin always casts his vote and always has to arrange for the council of clans to meet because typically there are only one or two demigods present (at least one of the representatives has never seen more than three present at one time). So while it is unlikely that Dvalin will become relevant, if there is a tie it is almost guaranteed to take forever. Hence, they bring snacks just in case.

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You made me wonder... will Dvalin vote at every tie? Or only those that don't have a tie for the demigods as well?

We know, Hell would have preferred a deciding vote from.... some other demigod who's name I can't remember and don't want to look up at the moment.
If this had happened, Dvalins vote would be moot, but would he still cast it (and, in order to do so, have the council assembled, gifting the world a few days)

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Originally Posted by Rogan

You made me wonder... will Dvalin vote at every tie? Or only those that don't have a tie for the demigods as well?

We know, Hell would have preferred a deciding vote from.... some other demigod who's name I can't remember and don't want to look up at the moment.
If this had happened, Dvalins vote would be moot, but would he still cast it (and, in order to do so, have the council assembled, gifting the world a few days)

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I assume Dvalin gets to vote last (when applicable) because everyone knows his MO and prefers to avoid asking for his vote whenever possible.

Well, we can be pretty sure that a previous godsmoot happened shortly before strip one.
Because I can't believe that an edition conversion would happen without all gods voting over it.

Also, we don't have a full compendium of the godsmoot rules. We can infer that gods are not required to send a high priest - otherwise Hel would have acted against the written rules all the time, even against her will. I would totally believe that there were godsmoots where several or even most gods couldn't be bothered to send a representative.
Speculation: procedures for a godsmoot that doesn't fulfill the quorum could oblige the attending ones to include demigods. (And Dvalin's would always be there.) Or, gods appoint someone else to vote for them. Or, Dvalin is summoned as a consultant on dwarven armor, because Freyr and Heimdall disagreed on the properties of mithril plate. Or, a decision involves the dwarves, so Dvalin gets to vote as a matter of inclusion. Or...

Interesting question: what would be topics of Godsmoots?
- Argument between deities? (e.g. Loki vs. Thor; or Thor cs. Surtur would be regulars)
- Arguments between pantheons? (west vs. north...)
- Whether or not handpuppets would be allowed as lesser entities of the pantheon
- adjustments to the godsmoot rules
- scheduling the centennial pantheon outing
- game edition upgrades (just a yes/no, or also all the previous design discussions... that's probably something that would interest Njord and Baldr, too)
- world events - like, divine punishment of that atheist village; or interference rules in a current war (think, Trojan war)?
- ...

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Originally Posted by Onyavar

Interesting question: what would be topics of Godsmoots?
- Argument between deities? (e.g. Loki vs. Thor; or Thor cs. Surtur would be regulars)
- Arguments between pantheons? (west vs. north...)
- Whether or not handpuppets would be allowed as lesser entities of the pantheon
- adjustments to the godsmoot rules
- scheduling the centennial pantheon outing
- game edition upgrades (just a yes/no, or also all the previous design discussions... that's probably something that would interest Njord and Baldr, too)
- world events - like, divine punishment of that atheist village; or interference rules in a current war (think, Trojan war)?
- ...

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You sure number 3 is even a decision? I can't think of a single god that wouldn't want Banjo, God of Puppets and Giggle, God of Slapstick, thats just rubber-stamping.

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Originally Posted by Keltest

Ugh, are they those guys who wear sandals with socks? No wonder we never see any, theyre probably all exiled at birth.

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Well, they certainly don’t reproduce. You’ll never see any half-half-halflings.

I am in the camp of believing that council and maybe even Dvalin gathers for more than just Godsmoot-related stuff. Tiebreakers are implied to be rare, since it is implied that the priests of the demigods rarely bother to show up. Only few attend, it was an open question if any bothered to show up, and the priests were playing go-fish in the vestibule. (See strip 1000).