Ignorant question regarding DnD

Since literally all of my DnD knowledge comes from OotS in some form or another, this is a question I've had on my mind for a decade but never remembered it long enough to ask:

What does the verb "Turn" in "Turn Undead" mean? I assume it doesn't mean the same kind of "turn" as "turn around" or "turn into a vampire"; both of those meanings imply a reorientation of some variety (physical or metaphysical), while Redcloak describes Turn Undead as more of an attack involving magical energy (strip 459). So I assume that Turn Undead uses a more archaic definition of "turn" (similar to how "dis-" in "disgruntled" is an archaic meaning that means "amplify" rather than "negate")

It's an ability to paralyse, scare or even destroy undead. It isn't very clear where the expression comes from, but here's the theory it comes from burying people face down who were suspected to be vampires.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnUndead

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Originally Posted by MrSandman

It's an ability to paralyse, scare or even destroy undead. It isn't very clear where the expression comes from, but here's the theory it comes from burying people face down who were suspected to be vampires.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TurnUndead

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Oddly enough, the connection to late antiquity folklore kinda put the pieces into place for me: shoving holy symbols and garlic flowers and such in front of you to make the ghouls turn away from you in fright and pain. And even if I'm wrong, thanks for the help

"Turn" is a word with a lot of definitions. In "turn undead", it means "divert" or "cause to retreat". It probably should have been called "repel undead".

I believe it is meant in the sense of physically moving or redirecting something; compare to 'turn away' a person or using armor to 'turn a blade.' The most common result of using Turn Undead is to make them flee from you - it causes Undead to Turn (around/away.)

The original game as published in 1974 had the table under the name "Clerics vs. Undead Monsters." The expression "Turn" came from the undead being stated as "turned away," as tyckspoon describes.

At some point between the supplements and AD&D 1e, the expression of turning became the shorthand name, and eventually became the official one (like how "Fighting Men" became Fighters, "Magic-Users" became Wizards, etc).

Having first seen the phrase in TES, I refused to use it. Why would I want to make my character change into a zombie? Later, when I did attempt to use it as a last resort, I was sorely disappointed, followed by that ubiquitous "aha" and slight annoyance at the ambiguity.

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Originally Posted by TARINunit9

Oddly enough, the connection to late antiquity folklore kinda put the pieces into place for me: shoving holy symbols and garlic flowers and such in front of you to make the ghouls turn away from you in fright and pain. And even if I'm wrong, thanks for the help

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Even if you aren't right (and I am not saying you aren't, I have no idea), this is pretty cool imagery, you have to admit. Certainly seems like a better way to describe it.

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Originally Posted by TARINunit9

Since literally all of my DnD knowledge comes from OotS in some form or another, this is a question I've had on my mind for a decade but never remembered it long enough to ask:

What does the verb "Turn" in "Turn Undead" mean? I assume it doesn't mean the same kind of "turn" as "turn around" or "turn into a vampire"; both of those meanings imply a reorientation of some variety (physical or metaphysical), while Redcloak describes Turn Undead as more of an attack involving magical energy (strip 459). So I assume that Turn Undead uses a more archaic definition of "turn" (similar to how "dis-" in "disgruntled" is an archaic meaning that means "amplify" rather than "negate")

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It's basically the scene in Dracula when they hold up the cross and the Vampire hisses and shrinks back like it is having a phobic reaction. This also comes up in Steven king's Dark Tower series with his Vampires, where the cross has to be backed by true belief to push them away.

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Originally Posted by Imbalance

Having first seen the phrase in TES, I refused to use it. Why would I want to make my character change into a zombie? Later, when I did attempt to use it as a last resort, I was sorely disappointed, followed by that ubiquitous "aha" and slight annoyance at the ambiguity.

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Yeah, I remember when I was a kid and reading about Priests in my first D&D book (2nd Edition AD&D), and I asked myself "Why would they want to turn (into) undead?" :smallamused:

The opposite of turn undead is rebuke undead.

Rebuke is you dummies should be working for me. Do my bidding.

Turn undead is your horrible flee from me.

Just a quick note:

In 3e D&D Evil Clerical "Turn Undead" powers was the reverse of a Good Cleric's: Instead of driving away (or destroying) Undead, it granted the Cleric the ability to command/control affected (no save) Undead.
This Ability was referred to as "Rebuke" Undead.

Which is why the Undead refused to obey the (I'm guessing: Necromancer Wizard/Death Cleric/Mystic Theorge) when she tried "commanding" them. And then they killed and ate each other, and the last one set itself on Fire (in the fireplace) in that strip. Because Redcloak's Turn power was already in control of them.

Also - undead could be damaged by Healing magic, and would gain HP from an Inflict spell.

/Longwinded ramblings.

In first edition an evil cleric could turn paladins, forcing them to flee a combat (and then be too far away to return soon enough to be relevant to that combat).

Not that I am bitter or anything.:smallmad:

Oh and some accounts of 7th century Saint Botolph say he could dismiss spirits and expel devils with a wave of his hand. He was said to be able to see the future too, which depressed him.

In oD&D men and magic the matrix said:
Numbers are the score to match or exceed in order to turn away, rolled with two six-sided dice.
T = Monster turned away, up to two dice in number.

In AD&D Players Handbook the Cleric Class had a section:
Another important attribute of the cleric is the ability to turn away (or actually command into service) the undead and less powerful demons and devils.
(It also references a matrix that isn't actually in the PHB. :smallamused: )

So it's "turn away".

So, couldn't we avoid confusion by simply changing the name of the spell?
How about Repel Undead?
Scare Undead?
Just go ahead and add the word: Turn Away Undead?
Inflict Introspection To Convince The Undead To Rethink Their Whole Unlife?

Just about anything would help, really. I remember one player who thought it meant to make them spin in place, like to turn a doorknob. If that were the case, maybe Steer Undead? But then cattle ranchers might get worried.

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Originally Posted by Imbalance

Inflict Introspection To Convince The Undead To Rethink Their Whole Unlife?

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Gets a bonus vs melancholy Vampires obsessed with their past.

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Originally Posted by Imbalance

So, couldn't we avoid confusion by simply changing the name of the spell?

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If we are going to clarify terms in D&D I would be more concerned with "level", which can apply to character, class, spell-caster, spell, dungeon, and gods know what else.

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Originally Posted by Particle_Man

If we are going to clarify terms in D&D I would be more concerned with "level", which can apply to character, class, spell-caster, spell, dungeon, and gods know what else.

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I have used since at least 2,000

Class = thinking in terms of Career/Profession
They're still called by Name Individually (example: Fighter) and as "Classes" as a whole.

Class Level = Rank

Yes, it sounds a little silly, but I figured that most people (both IRL and NPCs) would better understand (named? Not sure I want to try for 140 different ones, not counting Subclasses) neo-military type uses for separating the difference between "levels" (heh) of Experienced Adventurers.

Example: "I'm a 15th Rank Arcane Knight."
This immediately identifies to everyone:
Class and Subclass and how Powerful they are. Even semi-clueless NPCs will know that this EK is stronger than a Rank 12 of the same "profession".

Multiclassing can cause long-winded-ness.
Players are allowed to use shorthand.
"EK", "AT", "Swash", etc

Spell = Tier

And those are said together, so as to avoid OoC Play Tiers. I've seen some Groups use Circles for Levels instead.
"9th Circle Spells"

Buildings have Floors
and only Dungeons have Levels.

For all the effort put into streamlining 5E, they did leave their verbage a garbled mess. I agree the game needs a glossary overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Great Dragon

Buildings have Floors
and only Dungeons have Levels.

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Architect?

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Originally Posted by Imbalance

Architect?

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Actually, I'm not.

I no longer remember who it was that taught me to think in those terms, when I first started playing; but, it's appreciated a lot now.

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Originally Posted by Imbalance

For all the effort put into streamlining 5E, they did leave their verbage a garbled mess. I agree the game needs a glossary overhaul.

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Actually, it may be convoluted, but I think they were aiming to remain somewhat consistent to previous editions so old players don't have to needlessly relearn the terms that mean the same thing they always did. Then you get each table struggling with some particular term transitions that aren't changing quickly enough, and not every table sticking on the same transitions, and now most every table is using their own unique dialect of game terms and new players have more trouble learning both the game's terms and it's synonymous varients.

Trying to fix the gloasary will take far more work than just rebranding certain terms.