Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
OK, My buddy wants to run a game.
He is looking for
1. a flexible setting He has a fleshed-out world and story and does not want to hammer it too much to meet a game system. His genre is primarily urban fantasy but there may be some slipping into classic fantasy and sci-fi.
2. Easy to learn since he works a lot. He does not want to spend a lot of time reading and learning whole new systems.
His players are looking for
1. Flexible character concepts. Think Tales from the nightside by Simon green, Iron druid Chronicles, Harry Dresden
2. Character advancement. Doesn't have to be a full leveling system but nothing static characters should get new skills and abilities as they develop.
Other considerations.
Our group tends to like a good mix of story and combat
We previously used maps
But now we play over discord so theater of the mind is our current style though when we get together having a big map might happen.
I am looking for a good breakdown of what is currently out there that will handle this. SO far I am looking at Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher. We have played savage worlds but I found it a little flat but am willing to relook at it.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
From those choices I have experience with Savage Worlds, Fate and Gurps.
You can pretty much strike out Gurps from this list. Gurps is much less a game than it is a toolbox to create a game. There is a large overhead for the GM, and it is rather rules heavy.
Fate is also a toolbox. For an experienced Fate GM the overhead for creating a game is much smaller then Gurps since Fate is rather light on rules. I suspect that for someone with no Fate experience using that system to create and run a game is not an easy task.
Another point against Fate is that it's... polarizing. For some people Fate just "clicks", is intuitively clear. For others it's alienating. Especially Aspects.
Savage Worlds is very easy to learn, has a very robust set of abilities/skills that make characters work pretty much regardless of setting and makes it easy for the GM what checks to call for.
The downsides of this simple/easy and robust characters system is that if you play long enough characters start to look a bit... "samey". But thats not really an issue if you are just starting out.
There is one issue of GMing Savage Worlds though that could prove difficult: that is the Benny economy. Bennies in Savage Worlds are NOT an optional gimmick. They are not an "extra". Bennies are a vital ressource of the characters and the game simply won't work if the GM does not hand out Bennies to the players. But since there is no mechanic that regulates the Benny flow it's all on the GM. When exactly to hand them out, what is to few, what is to many... Personally I know I would suck at it, and thus I will never run a Savage World game. But the GMs I played under had no problem with it.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Savage Worlds is my favorite RPG system. it's versatile, easy to learn, and just crunchy enough to keep things fresh on new characters.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Fate's a good game if you can wrap your head around it... Fate Condensed and (if I may be so bold), the Book of Hanz can help with that.
https://fate-srd.com/fate-condensed/introduction
https://fate-srd.com/odds-ends/book-hanz
Savage Worlds is good, but really wants to be pretty combat-heavy. I kinda look at it as a lighter version of GURPS.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
1. Flexible settings - all of these fit the bill and can be adapted readily to the type of game he's looking for.
2. Simple to learn - okay, cross off GURPS and Cypher. They're both good tools, but put a lot of load up front. In that same vein, FUDGE can also be a burden on the GM in that it requires a lot of work and a good grasp of roleplaying pacing. It's not hard to learn, just taxing.
3. Flexible character concepts - all are good.
4. Character advancement - strike out Fate. It's not great at giving that satisfying progression and you already start off pretty competent.
That leaves Savage Worlds, BRP, and Cortex.
I've only played the Firefly version of Cortex and found it pretty messy and inconsistent. It almost seems like an unfinished concept that's difficult to apply to a full rpg.
BRP feels bloated with way too many skills that you can never really master, so looking at your character sheet is always a little demoralizing.
Savage Worlds is a great game that I run on the regular. It's got a bit more of a learning curve than they are willing to admit, but it's not overwhelming and players generally get into the swing of it pretty quickly. The exploding dice feature is a lot of fun in play.
After running GURPS for years, my go-to games are Savage Worlds and Fate. I've really tried to like Cypher System, but in play it feels gimmicky and doesn't really do what it purports.
So, of your initial list, I would have to recommend Savage Worlds.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
there is some really good information here. And I know it was not in the original question but How does Hero system compare to those above?
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Hero System is great for superheroes. Probably magic and monsters too, but I've never played a fantasy game, only super powered and super spy campaigns.
Playing mundanes seems like it's not reaching its full potential because the increments for calculating derived stats are too large to catch much variation at "low levels". Everyone ends up being kind of the same.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombimode
You can pretty much strike out Gurps from this list. Gurps is much less a game than it is a toolbox to create a game. There is a large overhead for the GM, and it is rather rules heavy.
While I love GURPS, it has two major problems: character creation is very heavy, and it's about 500 pages of rules. With scientists and engineers who all have a copy of the rules 100 point characters aren't difficult to get up and running, but for many people it's just too many points to assign to too many categories.
While I still prefer GURPS, for most people Fudge is likely the easier system to get and use, even if it's even more of a toolkit (GURPS is a fully structured game with a set attribute and skill list, Fudge expects you to come up with your own). But more on my thoughts on Fudge later.
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Fate is also a toolbox. For an experienced Fate GM the overhead for creating a game is much smaller then Gurps since Fate is rather light on rules. I suspect that for someone with no Fate experience using that system to create and run a game is not an easy task.
Another point against Fate is that it's... polarizing. For some people Fate just "clicks", is intuitively clear. For others it's alienating. Especially Aspects.
Eh...
Going with the two builds I have experience with, Fate Core and Fate Accelerated, they're not hard to get going. Fate Accelerated is set up to just run, with the main problem being that it relies entirely on DIY stunts (which are easy if everybody sticks to 'when X I get a +2 bonus to Y), with the biggest issue I've seen is people not groking the 'you're supposed to spend FP and then take a bunch of compels to get more' and 'you can inflict a compel on yourself'.
Fate Core is more of a toolkit than Accelerated, but still includes a robust skill list and gives more advice on creating Stunts (along with three example stunts per skill). You can run Fate Core exactly as written and not have a problem, although it's probably better if you alter it somewhat to fit your setting. Especially the skill list, my general rule is that if combat isn't important to your game you should just fold all combat skills into one, but it'll work with the skill list as written.
Now Fate is a build of Fudge, and to me basically solves my two biggest problems with Fudge: the Attribute/Skill split, and not having a simple system to represent Gifts. That's why I'm not going to bring up Fudge as an option, I like it but think Fate is generally better.
One other good thing about Fate/Fudge is that you can literally stat anything as a character. The two space settings I own, The Aether Sea (imagine a more serious Spelljammer) and Tachyon Squadron both stat ships as characters, although in different ways (in TS a ship can be a separate character for NPCs or part of a PC). I've also seen organisations and settlements set up with Aspects, Skills, Stunts, and Extras. I've sometimes mentioned to friends that in Fate playing a sentient object is easy, take Aspects to give you the right Permissions and pick Skills and Stunts that represent what you do and off you go.
Plus Fate Core and Accelerated pdfs are PWYW (while Fudge just has a version that's free in pdf), so it costs nothing to have a look. You could then go back and pay money for the pdf or do what I did and buy the print book.
Man, I really want to set up a Fate space game now, I've even got a system for spaceships and interstellar travel worked out (it begins with 'Spaceships have one or more Aspects and Drive, Sensors, Weapons, and Shields skills...).
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Savage Worlds is very easy to learn, has a very robust set of abilities/skills that make characters work pretty much regardless of setting and makes it easy for the GM what checks to call for.
The downsides of this simple/easy and robust characters system is that if you play long enough characters start to look a bit... "samey". But thats not really an issue if you are just starting out.
There is one issue of GMing Savage Worlds though that could prove difficult: that is the Benny economy. Bennies in Savage Worlds are NOT an optional gimmick. They are not an "extra". Bennies are a vital ressource of the characters and the game simply won't work if the GM does not hand out Bennies to the players. But since there is no mechanic that regulates the Benny flow it's all on the GM. When exactly to hand them out, what is to few, what is to many... Personally I know I would suck at it, and thus I will never run a Savage World game. But the GMs I played under had no problem with it.
Savage Worlds, at least until the edition before the current one (because I've not read the current edition) is very combat focused. It makes sense, it was basically designed to allow you to play big wargame-sized battles in a single session and still run smoothly, but the end result is that the rules are as much a miniatures wargame as an RPG. I like it, and you can run it without minis, but it's important to mention that the game is designed around smooth combat first and other things second, so people should not really make dedicated noncombatants.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maglubiyet
4. Character advancement - strike out Fate. It's not great at giving that satisfying progression and you already start off pretty competent.
Honestly, I'd level those statements at any of the "surviving" games. And GURPS as well, though that had been caught by an earlier filter.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
I think the right Powered by the Apocalypse would work great, but I have no idea which one is the one you want so this is an aside.
Of the ones listed, either Fudge of its derivative Fate. I would say take a look at both and have the person running the game pick the one that feels better. I found Fate to be much more approachable but on the authority of those who have gotten into both apparently Fudge is the cleaner system once you get into it. If you don't want narrative/meta mechanics than Fudge might also be the better choice then.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
I think Fate would be the best fit. Aspects mean that you do not have to mechanically create everything because they are deliberately situational. While Dresden Files RPG is a bit older, it works well for the types of characters you mentioned. It does urban fantasy quite well. Dresden Files Accelerated is a rules lighter, more modern take, although I prefer the crunchier older version. Both are still available, one did not replace the other. DFRPG has my favorite magic system, as it is both easy to learn and very flexible.
The thing that I like about Fate is that it can be as crunchy or not as you like. I tend to run it crunchier than "Book of Hanz" and the internet tends to portray it, for instance. And the Tool Kit is very good at giving you a peek at under the hood options to tweak the system to your needs. One of the things I like the best is that the underlying system math is pretty simple, which makes it easy to tinker.
The most difficult part for editing Fate for a specific system is coming up with the skill list. Fate Accelerated uses approaches, which is simpler mechanically although can feel unintuitive. A hybrid solution is something like ability scores or attributes in other systems. All of these can work well.
The biggest thing to remember with Fate is that, no matter the level of crunch, it is designed to simulate stories, fiction, and narrative. It is not designed to simulate reality. It doesn't have detailed physics. Which is, in my opinion, incredibly freeing.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ravynwinter
OK, My buddy wants to run a game.
He is looking for
1. a flexible setting He has a fleshed-out world and story and does not want to hammer it too much to meet a game system. His genre is primarily urban fantasy but there may be some slipping into classic fantasy and sci-fi.
2. Easy to learn since he works a lot. He does not want to spend a lot of time reading and learning whole new systems.
His players are looking for
1. Flexible character concepts. Think Tales from the nightside by Simon green, Iron druid Chronicles, Harry Dresden
2. Character advancement. Doesn't have to be a full leveling system but nothing static characters should get new skills and abilities as they develop.
Other considerations.
Our group tends to like a good mix of story and combat
We previously used maps
But now we play over discord so theater of the mind is our current style though when we get together having a big map might happen.
I am looking for a good breakdown of what is currently out there that will handle this. SO far I am looking at Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher. We have played savage worlds but I found it a little flat but am willing to relook at it.
Condensing your requirements, for elimination purposes:
0) Flexible setting/characters.
1) Easy to learn.
2) Character Advancement
3) ToTM friendly.
4) Combat-heavy friendly.
5) Easy to bend into shape (implicit).
The candidate list:
Savage Worlds, Fate, Fudge, BRP, GURPS, Cortex, Cypher
- Savage World isn't ideal, it fails criteria 3 in a big way.
- Fate fits all listed criteria.
- Fudge fits all listed criteria though the writing style (but not the mechanical content) impairs 1 a bit.
- BRP is a little dicey on 1 and 5, but could work.
- GURPS fails criteria 1, and is dicey on 2 and 3.
- Cortex fits all listed criteria, though it's a little dicey on 1 if you just use the Plus Hacker's guide or Prime book and don't look at a less toolkit implementation.
- Cypher fits all listed criteria.
Presumably there are also unlisted criteria which could help sort between the remaining options. It might also be worth taking a look at d6 Open and Ubiquity.
Of the lot my personal recommendation would be Fudge or Cortex, but the underlying preferences there aren't on your requirements list at all.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ravynwinter
OK, My buddy wants to run a game.
He is looking for
1. a flexible setting He has a fleshed-out world and story and does not want to hammer it too much to meet a game system. His genre is primarily urban fantasy but there may be some slipping into classic fantasy and sci-fi.
2. Easy to learn since he works a lot. He does not want to spend a lot of time reading and learning whole new systems.
His players are looking for
1. Flexible character concepts. Think Tales from the nightside by Simon green, Iron druid Chronicles, Harry Dresden
2. Character advancement. Doesn't have to be a full leveling system but nothing static characters should get new skills and abilities as they develop.
Other considerations.
Our group tends to like a good mix of story and combat
We previously used maps
But now we play over discord so theater of the mind is our current style though when we get together having a big map might happen.
I am looking for a good breakdown of what is currently out there that will handle this. SO far I am looking at Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher. We have played savage worlds but I found it a little flat but am willing to relook at it.
"Flexible setting and character concepts," "solid combat and noncombat" and-- especially-- easy to learn and run are exactly the criteria I built STaRS around. It's designed to be quick to learn, easy for GMs to improvise, and lightning-fast to play.
- The system is a1d10-roll-under, with players making all the rolls. Each character has ten ability scores; the DC of a check is equal to your rank in the score you're using. All the GM has to worry about is a single ad-hoc modifier for circumstance-- and modifiers are always +-2, to keep things fast. NPCs don't even have stats, just a list of things they can do and things they're good or bad at opposing.
- "Combat" is generalized to broad "Conflict" rules that can be expanded to cover all sorts of circumstances, with specific discussions about physical combat, socializing, and environmental dangers/goals.
- Characters are built around the 10 ability scores, as mentioned before, and can spend experience points to increase them up to the cap of 8; they can also spend xp on skills (to gain a bonus on specific sorts of checks), quirks (making one sort of check with a weird ability score), allies, and special powers. (Those are priced based on versatility; the full version of the rules has a bunch of example systems already worked out).
- The full version of the rules also includes a chapter of optional rules for things like mass combat, hero points, vehicles, and so on.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BardicDuelist
I think Fate would be the best fit. Aspects mean that you do not have to mechanically create everything because they are deliberately situational. While Dresden Files RPG is a bit older, it works well for the types of characters you mentioned. It does urban fantasy quite well. Dresden Files Accelerated is a rules lighter, more modern take, although I prefer the crunchier older version. Both are still available, one did not replace the other. DFRPG has my favorite magic system, as it is both easy to learn and very flexible.
The thing that I like about Fate is that it can be as crunchy or not as you like. I tend to run it crunchier than "Book of Hanz" and the internet tends to portray it, for instance. And the Tool Kit is very good at giving you a peek at under the hood options to tweak the system to your needs. One of the things I like the best is that the underlying system math is pretty simple, which makes it easy to tinker.
A lot of this comes from how Fate is based on Fudge, but with some major narrativist elements and being based around a numerical scale centred on +1* rather than an adjective ladder centred on Average. The key behind both being flexible is due to not having much in the way of crud or exceptions, the rules are stripped down to a basic set of mechanics with enough bend to not need exceptions and then ask your to build on the specifics you want.
As a side note, the DFRPG magic system's Evocation rules got a reworking in the Fate System Toolkit, which has some discussion on making magic systems as well as five examples: Stormcalling (Evocation 2.0), The Six Vizers (a system for more mythical heroes), The Subtle Art (think of this as 'real world spells'), Storm Summoning (an elemental-summoning system), and Voidcalling (a PC useable eldritch horror summoning system). Stormcalling, Storm Summoning, and Voidcalling are all theoretically based on the same cosmology but each works as a standlone system. I also really like Voidcalling, because it can really hit that 'creepy cultist' aspect.
* +1.5 for Fate Accelerated, and higher if we account for invoking.
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The most difficult part for editing Fate for a specific system is coming up with the skill list. Fate Accelerated uses approaches, which is simpler mechanically although can feel unintuitive. A hybrid solution is something like ability scores or attributes in other systems. All of these can work well.
Heh, I've had enough 'blasts of fire are Flashy, not Clever' arguments that I just stopped running Accelerated, it just wasn't worth the hassle. Professions or Identities work well as a middle ground, they are still based on what you're doing, but they're broader and work well for DIY lists (where the players pick what skills their character has with no overarching list).
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The biggest thing to remember with Fate is that, no matter the level of crunch, it is designed to simulate stories, fiction, and narrative. It is not designed to simulate reality. It doesn't have detailed physics. Which is, in my opinion, incredibly freeing.
Yep, and it works incredibly well when people grok that taking Compels and using Create an Advantage are intended parts of the game. If you play as intended it'll actually naturally flow into a narrative structure, as PCs have moments of awesome and setbacks as their Fate Point pool fluctuates.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anonymouswizard
A lot of this comes from how Fate is based on Fudge, but with some major narrativist elements and being based around a numerical scale centred on +1* rather than an adjective ladder centred on Average. The key behind both being flexible is due to not having much in the way of crud or exceptions, the rules are stripped down to a basic set of mechanics with enough bend to not need exceptions and then ask your to build on the specifics you want.
They both have both a numerical scale and a trait ladder, and the Average term only exists in the Fate ladder (which is substantially longer and thus harder to memorize).
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Knaight
Savage World isn't ideal, it fails criteria 3 in a big way.
I have both run and played in SW games that use ToTM. It runs fine, especially SWADE, which includes rules on how to run without a tabletop. In fact, you can use the zone concept to good effect to make it even easier.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
I am currently in much the same boat as OPs friend. Rooting around for a system to use for a possible space-fantasy game. I haven't come up with the answer for myself (though probably a re-skinned Apocalypse World is my current front runner).
A lot of what I'd say has already been said about the systems, so I'll try to focus on some different viewpoints on them.
I personally have always found BRP to be super simple and one of the best games to just jump into things with. Works best with simpler concepts though and some people just don't like the steady incremental levelling. Personally, I can't use it with the people I game with these days because of this.
Fate---There is a lot of love for this one out there but I can't say I agree. (even though it might be my second choice currently) Even more than GURPS it feels like a toolkit. When I had issues with running it, I found forums extremely unhelpful for it, as for every question there would be 100 different answers. I've run a few campaigns with it and they went well, but I have never been in what I would call a good game using it. There is always someone who breaks it (including my own games BTW, which I think only myself and the person breaking it really noticed). I find it very easy to break unless you have a group that is on board with everyone playing people who help the main character succeed. YMMV. Nobody ever really seems to grok or engage with stunts unless they are into system mastery so in my experience people end up searching lists from the internet and then you discover some broken ones and whee.... Still, it is fast and easy (except stunts) and not too hard to get from concept to playing (except stunts...lol)
Cortex-I like Cam Banks, he's a great guy. I kickstarted it. I'm on the Discord. I can't say I grok it yet...but it has D4s as a common dice, and for that I have to say NO!!!! (I hate those damned pyramids. I should order some of those 12 sided D4s and perhaps I will be able to get over my irrational hatred of D4s but I haven't yet, so I have to say avoid this game because of D4s)
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
I would say Fate is actually a playable game out of the box. Most of the time, the only thing I might do is add a magic system if necessary, or maybe tweak the skill list.
What it is, however, is a system that relies on rulings. The game never says "the result of x is y" or "this character can absolutely do this". Those decisions are left to the GM and the table as a whole. That's kind of the nature of a "fiction first" game like Fate - you start by saying what you do, and if that doesn't make sense, you veto at that level before you even get to the "mechanics" part.
If you're looking for a game where the mechanics are really the "physics" of the game, that's going to not work very well for you.
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maglubiyet
BRP feels bloated with way too many skills that you can never really master, so looking at your character sheet is always a little demoralizing.
What you can do with BRP (and we have done) is simply the skills. We are playing a fallen worlds type game (so mixture of Low Tech with some Hi Tech and now some majic / Psionic). We pooled for example
Melee - all one skill for any melee weapon
Low Tech Ranged - so any low tech ranged weapon
Hi tech Ranged - so any ranged weapon
etc
This reduced the skills down to 20 ish (And new ones can be added as needed / skills split if needed)
Re: Savage Worlds vs FATE vs FUDGE vs BRP vs GURPS vs Cortex vs Cypher
Cortex is what my vote is going in support of.
The firefly system was the first (to my knowledge) iternation of it, so of course it is going to be a bit... bumpy I guess.
it has since been expanded and more.. codified I guess?
marvel roleplaying is an excellent example
The system is fairly simple to learn DxStat +DxSkill and compare that to the target number.
There are built in narrative mechanics for your charcter in the form of 'plot points'
Ive heard that savage worlds bears a remarkable resemblance to the serenity version of cortex, but I have never thoroughly read the savage world books.
Gurps is a lot of your check boxes as well, but i guess a more accurate definition of easy to learn is needed. GURPS is easy to learn, but there is some reading to do. NOTE: you do not need all trazillion or so sourcebooks for GURPS to play it.
