Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
Balance [Fighter] [General]
Prerequisites
Character level 3rd.
Benefit
You gain a +1 untyped bonus to each of your odd-numbered ability scores.
Special
A fighter may select Balance as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Self-Improvement [Fighter] [General]
Prerequisites
Character level 6th.
Benefit
You gain a +2 untyped bonus to each of your ability scores that is less than 10.
Special
A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
A fighter may select Self-Improvement as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Perfected [Fighter] [General]
Prerequisites
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10, Balance, Self-Improvement, character level 9th.
Benefit
You gain a +2 perfection bonus to each of your ability scores other than your highest ability score. If two or more of your ability scores are tied for highest, none of them gain the bonus.
Special
A fighter may select Perfected as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Spoiler: Alternative versions
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Balance [Fighter] [General]
Benefit
One of your odd-numbered ability scores increases by 1.
Special
A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
A fighter may select Balance as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Self-Improvement [Fighter] [General]
Prerequisites
Any ability score 10 or less.
Benefit
Your two lowest ability scores each increase by 1. If there are any ties, you choose which ability scores to increase.
Special
A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
A fighter may select Equity as one of his fighter bonus feats.
You do not lose the benefits of this feat if you no longer meet its prerequisites.
Perfected [Fighter] [General]
Prerequisites
No ability score less than 10, no odd-numbered ability scores, Balance, Self-Improvement, character level 6th.
Benefit
Your four lowest ability scores each increase by 2 points. If there are any ties, you choose which ability scores to increase.
Special
A fighter may select Perfected as one of his fighter bonus feats.
You do not lose the benefits of this feat if you no longer meet its prerequisites.
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
What's the thinking behind these feats?
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biggus
What's the thinking behind these feats?
I was thinking of feats to help even out ability scores for people who rolled low or had odd scores (effectively "wasted" points since ability modifiers only apply to even scores), and one thing led to another haha. Perfected was just a capstone.
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
How does perfected actually work?
It requires all your stats to be 10 (so equal) as a prerequisite, but it doesn't raise your highest stat, and if multiple stats are tied for the highest it raises none of them.
Soo if you manage to meet the prerequisites, it... does nothing?
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rel
How does perfected actually work?
It requires all your stats to be 10 (so equal) as a prerequisite, but it doesn't raise your highest stat, and if multiple stats are tied for the highest it raises none of them.
Soo if you manage to meet the prerequisites, it... does nothing?
There's technically a valid order-of-operations where it's looking to your pre-bonus stats but the bonuses from the prerequisite feats qualify you for it. That said, this is not how the rules remotely typically work, so such behavior is better to define explicitly.
Edit: Imposed context apparently bit me with the same blindspot.
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rferries
I was thinking of feats to help even out ability scores for people who rolled low or had odd scores (effectively "wasted" points since ability modifiers only apply to even scores), and one thing led to another haha. Perfected was just a capstone.
Ah thank you, that makes more sense now. Most people on here seem to use point buy rather than rolled stats, so it didn't occur to me how this would affect that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rel
It requires all your stats to be 10 (so equal) as a prerequisite, but it doesn't raise your highest stat, and if multiple stats are tied for the highest it raises none of them.
That's not the way feat prerequisites work, the stated number is a minimum. Look at Dodge for example, it states it requires Dex 13, not Dex 13+, and I've never heard anyone suggest you can't take it or lose the benefits if your Dex is/becomes higher than 13.
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
Having feats like that encourage MAD classes. That's great! I much prefer the regular version over the alternative. Not only are the alternative version worse, they encourage improving your best score (which is arguably contrary to the design of the feats), and maybe don't work (what happens is you use your ASI on the same score you chose with alternative Balance, for example).
In order to remove the possibility of min-maxing, maybe add a clause "odd-numbered ability scores lower than your highest ability score" to avoid having people buying something like 17/17/11/9/9/9 in point-buy.
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Biggus
That's not the way feat prerequisites work, the stated number is a minimum. Look at Dodge for example, it states it requires Dex 13, not Dex 13+, and I've never heard anyone suggest you can't take it or lose the benefits if your Dex is/becomes higher than 13.
Ah okay, that makes more sense.
The feat chain is... potentially useful for a very MAD class, but it is a lot of feats.
Also the feats are coming online slowly, so a character may end up less effective for much of the game.
If the first feat invalidates the second (i.e. a stat of 9 is boosted to 10 by Balance and therefore doesn't qualify for Improvement) then it seems very hard to justify taking the full chain.
If all 3 feats do synergise, then it might be fun to take even though it is suboptimal. Probably on something that is generally MAD and suboptimal anyway, like a monk.
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
Just occurred to me that with Balance, you need to clarify what happens if the ability score subsequently improves and becomes even (excluding the bonus from Balance). Do you keep the bonus or lose it?
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
First of all, I'd nix the even/odd element altogether. I can't think of any purpose this could serve other than annoying.
Balance, as presented, could be anything from useless to yielding up to +6 gain.
The alternative could be anything from useless to yielding up to +2 gain.
I personally don't like circumstantial results for character resources investment.
I'd go for +2 or +3 points, levelling the lowest ability score, where you can choose from multiple abilities that have the lowest value while distributing.
This will be:
1. beneficial for unlucky players.
2. beneficial for MAD characters
3. flexible in usage.
4. not prone to power abuse.
5. rendering the proposed Self-Improvement feat moot (as presented, Balance is better than Self-Improvement anyway)
Just an idea, you could optionally make it grant +3 when taken for the first time, +2 when taken for the second time and +1 when taken for the third and final time.
If you don't want to encourage burning too many character resources on ability improvements, you could limit this feat to just once, but have it grant no more than a total of +4.
For Perfected, I think 3 lowest ability scores are enough. No reason why a single feat should grant +8 total improvement of ability scores.
I'd also explicitely limit taking this feat only once.
I'd make Self-Improvement:
1. boost one ability score of your choice by +1.
2. limited to once every 6 character levels.
3. require a general feat only, not feats gained via class levels or substitutions of any sort (no cheep currency if you can target your highest score).
Re: Some ability score feats (arguably both pro- and anti-min-maxing)
These look fun, and don't seem like they'd be over the top compared to many other options. After all, the first two are only useful to characters with multiple pretty low scores, and if they were low to begin with, they probably aren't that important, eh?
I could see this being used by an Orc fighter or some such that is rapidly learning and adapting to their role in a group of adventurers. A good way to buy back all those penalties.
