Is it possible to teach Druidic to a non-druid?

So, one of the features of the druid class is that they all know the Druidic language, and only druids know it. Which leads to the frequent question of, what if a druid violates their vows and teaches it to a non-druid anyway? Sure, they'd fall for that and lose their druidic powers, but all it would take would be one vow-breaker, and eventually anyone who wanted to know the language could learn it.

Except, I was thinking... what if that's not even possible? Different languages don't just have different vocabulary, but entirely different structures. Druidic is, one would expect, a language that's most well-suited to description and discussion of the natural world. What if its structure is inherently modeled on the structure of the natural world itself, such that it's impossible to have an understanding of the language unless you first have a deep understanding of nature, of the sort that makes one a druid to begin with? Or to put it another way, the way to teach someone Druidic is to teach them to be entirely a druid?

Or to take it further: What if it's so tied to the structure of the natural world that, of those who can learn it (i.e., druids), they don't even need to be taught it? One can imagine an entirely self-taught druid, whose intense study of and meditation on nature has given them intuitive insight in how one ought to describe and discuss it, to the extent that if they then met another self-taught druid from another continent, they'd still be able to converse in that inherent, intuitive language?

Impossible in our world, of course... but then, our world also doesn't have anyone who can study nature so intensely that they can cast spells from it, either.

To most of your point - the limitations of language IRL are heavily physiology-based, in a way. If Catfolk have the ability to hear and produce sounds beyond human hearing, in the way cats can IRL, their language would be unusable, but you can still learn and use their language options the same way you can any other - just by spending a skill point. I'm not sure that Druidic is that far out there in terms of options.

In earlier editions, I think Druidic may have actually allowed druids to talk to plants, but that went the way of the dodo with 3e onwards.

Yes, in setting it's possible for Druids to teach non-Druids the Druidic language. The assumption, like just about everything else with vague nonsensical "you totally swore an oath not to" things in 3e onwards, is that everyone takes those oaths far too seriously to ever break them and the people who don't are typically bad guys who have reasons not to just hand out all their tricks. Player Characters are a weird exception because allowing player agency means that unlike all those NPCs who are written not to they actually can, and they have ways of resolving the consequences of losing their class features afterward so they can open the floodgates to a situation of "suddenly everyone knows this secret language."

Problem is, aside from it being secret and the oath to keep it that way there's really no reason for people not to be able to figure it out. Considering Druids are no less prone to making enemies than anyone else there really should be more cases of people piecing it together just to learn what's being said behind their back, languages are useless if they can't be learned and even if it somehow requires the context of something else in a Druid's training that can still be substituted if it's identified.

To take the Catfolk example from the post above, maybe some of it is tied to body language or things that others may have a hard time imitating but in those cases a fragmented ability to understand and use the language is still partial understanding of it. Broken English is a thing and those familiar with a language rarely stick closely to all the grammatical rules and proper terms, in most cases they're still understandable to someone who knows the language. You might take a few attempts to figure out what was said to you and it may not line up perfectly with the topic being discussed due to mutual misunderstanding or confused terms but it's still clearly in the language and you just need the right context for all parties involved to see what's really being said and why.

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Originally Posted by Chronos

So, one of the features of the druid class is that they all know the Druidic language, and only druids know it. Which leads to the frequent question of, what if a druid violates their vows and teaches it to a non-druid anyway? Sure, they'd fall for that and lose their druidic powers, but all it would take would be one vow-breaker, and eventually anyone who wanted to know the language could learn it.

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You don't need a druid involved, strictly speaking: Just the cooperation of someone who can cast Tongues. Depending on who's casting it, it's somewhere between 2nd and 4th level, and lasts 10 minutes/level... and can be made permanent with a Permanency spell if desired. So if your Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Bard friend has it and doesn't mind casting it a few times a day on non-adventuring days (or has it Permanently), you can absolutely use that as justification for spending the skill point(s) and learning it on level up in game (this holds true in both 3.5 and Pathfinder).

Edit: The question on spread is primarily one of usefulness, however.

Like... in real life, English is a very widespread language because it's currently the language of international trade: Most companies in international business want to sell to the US, and so they want employees who can speak English (and as a side effect, it helps enable trade with other businesses that also want to do business with the US - it's quite possible for a Japanese and a Russian company to negotiate in English just because both will usually have an English speaking rep on staff), so a rather lot of people at least try to learn English because it's a very marketable skill. Likewise, Spanish and Chinese are spoken by a very large percentage of the world population as their native language, and that makes either a very useful language to pick up if you're going for a second language. But when was the last time you heard of someone taking a class in, say, Lingít (for reference, it's the name of a language of a specific group of Alaskan natives)? An obscure language is great for passing messages relatively securely among a small group that all knows said language (look up the use of Navajo in war if you like), it's useful for the people who speak it natively (it's what they speak in their hometown), and it's useful for certain specialty applications (e.g., someone studying the culture)... but other than that? Not so much. If Druidic is pretty much only spoken by Druids, then it's only going to be of interest to Druids, people who want to study Druids (spy on them, really), and a couple of groups who want it for a code (and there's a lot of obscure languages that will suit that purpose, Druidic won't be the default). And that's it. So yes, while it can theoretically spread widely... for practical purposes, it really, really won't.

Edit 2: But by the rules as written? There's nothing "special" about Druid, fundamentally; it's just that it's sworn to only be taught to Druids by the folks who know it.

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Quoth MonochromeTiger:

You might take a few attempts to figure out what was said to you and it may not line up perfectly with the topic being discussed due to mutual misunderstanding or confused terms but it's still clearly in the language and you just need the right context for all parties involved to see what's really being said and why.

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But my point is, the right context might be the entirety of nature. Someone attempting to use scraps of Druidic might go completely uncomprehended, because the scraps they heard were spoken in winter, and it's spring now. Or because what they said is meaningless outside of a temperate forest, and they're in a grassland. Or because there's a songbird singing nearby right now, and there wasn't then. Worse, in a different context, it might even have a completely different meaning.

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Originally Posted by Chronos

But my point is, the right context might be the entirety of nature. Someone attempting to use scraps of Druidic might go completely uncomprehended, because the scraps they heard were spoken in winter, and it's spring now. Or because what they said is meaningless outside of a temperate forest, and they're in a grassland. Or because there's a songbird singing nearby right now, and there wasn't then. Worse, in a different context, it might even have a completely different meaning.

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But we have no reason to believe it's actually that complex and overly specific. If anything there's something in Pathfinder, and I'd need to go looking through books for ages to confirm if 3e or 3.5 has it too, which implies the opposite. "Druidic has its own alphabet."

Meaning it's a language with predetermined phonetics going into word construction and a set written language. If the basic structure of your words changes constantly by time and place, and I don't mean in the way a living language changes from common use, then an alphabet is a bit of a waste. You won't get any use out of writing down your words for a message if next week is Spring and suddenly the message actually needs entirely different letters to not be a mess of random noises. If you have a written language you also need some common standards between the places it's used or you'd be working off completely different dialects with different rules and not understanding each other.

What is implied in both games is that Druidic as a language is a single shared language known to Druids, what the "you can't teach this without breaking oaths" point implies is that others can learn and understand it without being Druids but that they aren't taught it due to oaths taken by Druids. The first means that having it operate under such random fluctuating rules makes it an absolutely horrendous language that fails in its purpose of giving a reliable means of communication, the latter means that even if there's some special condition to learning it it's still possible for non Druids to learn so that condition isn't something that changes every second Tuesday of the month and switches around if a Bluebird chirps the wrong tune.

Yes, as per the SRD a druid can teach the language to a non-druid. This is a violation of their oaths so its clearly possible.

It's a normal language, just like abyssal or ignan. Anyone can learn it but druids don't like to teach it to non-druids.
Think of it as a religious language, commonly used for ceremony and ritual but not everyday conversation.

An enterprising PC or NPC wanting to learn the language (to enter Fochlucan Lyrist for example) should be able to do so without much trouble by either convincing, bribing, tricking, or coercing a tutor, finding a suitable repository of lore, or devising a clever magical solution.

Boasting about your ability to speak druidic as a non-druid may earn you the enmity of druids in some settings.

I agree with the conclusion reached (druids can obviously teach druidic to nondruids, because they can fall for it), but I'd like to note something interesting: there's a RAW way to involuntarily have a nondruid learn druidic.

Start with a character that doesn't speak any languages (several monsters should qualify). Give it nine levels in druid, which grants it druidic as a language. Then have it cast Awaken on an animal or plant. By RAW:

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An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know...

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Given that the only language you know is druidic, the awakened animal must speak this tongue. And well, it's obviously not a druid, having only gained sapience seconds ago.

Depending on your definition of 'teach', this might not even violate our druid's oaths! And the animal itself is obviously under no restrictions to keep this language a secret.

If someone with the mindrape spell uses it on a druid, would that druid fall because another took the information from him?

Sure, that teaching was involuntary, but I don't think that matters.

I certainly include physiological limits on some languages. I once ran an epic Ultimate Magus with a gold dragon as a Dragon Cohort. The character story included the fact that he knew the dragon’s name in Draconic, but to pronounce it correctly, he needed to use a silent image spell to add the puff of smoke that is the final syllable.

In the game I’m currently running, I have an NPC green dragon whose name is Chryso(spit acid)phyla(rumble).

Canonically, yes, druids can teach the language to others, because they are forbidden to do so. But when the language first appeared, in original D&D, we all assumed that it was not possible, just like you couldn't teach Lawful to somebody who wasn't in that alignment. [Yes, there were three alignment languages.]

I would probably continue that trend if it ever came up in my game. if I had a player who wanted to try to teach druidic to a non-druid, I would say that it can’t be done, and I would not give the reason.

Including the reason you can’t do it is a statement that they can do it if they find a way to overcome that obstacle.

Presumably you could learn druidic from a blighter. But you could also surreptitiously observe druids speaking and obtain writings to learn through self study. The gatekeeping of the language isn't nearly as strong as I've seen many people make it out to be. For instance, the speak language skill references a table which arguably (but not unambiguously) prevents spending a skill point to learn druidic. Loremaster is another possibility, and because it makes no reference to the speak language skill and lacks any specific restrictions, I don't see any reason druidic could be prohibited on a rules basis here. A DM is within their rights to say you don't have the resources to learn druidic at hand, but I would argue that applies to any language. Learning druidic through self study isn't any more preposterous than abruptly learning abyssal, auran, or undercommon by spending a skill point or using the loremaster class feature.

The fluff of druidic is based a little on irl druids who has their own secret language seperate to old welsh, according to roman accounts, afaik

it's just a language. It can be taught, it's just kept within druidic groups.

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Originally Posted by Malphegor

The fluff of druidic is based a little on irl druids who has their own secret language seperate to old welsh, according to roman accounts, afaik

it's just a language. It can be taught, it's just kept within druidic groups.

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So the "secret" language will last all of a week before it leaks and everyone who wants to know it does.

Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by Chronos

Except, I was thinking... what if that's not even possible? Different languages don't just have different vocabulary, but entirely different structures. Druidic is, one would expect, a language that's most well-suited to description and discussion of the natural world. What if its structure is inherently modeled on the structure of the natural world itself, such that it's impossible to have an understanding of the language unless you first have a deep understanding of nature, of the sort that makes one a druid to begin with? Or to put it another way, the way to teach someone Druidic is to teach them to be entirely a druid?

Or to take it further: What if it's so tied to the structure of the natural world that, of those who can learn it (i.e., druids), they don't even need to be taught it? One can imagine an entirely self-taught druid, whose intense study of and meditation on nature has given them intuitive insight in how one ought to describe and discuss it, to the extent that if they then met another self-taught druid from another continent, they'd still be able to converse in that inherent, intuitive language?

Impossible in our world, of course... but then, our world also doesn't have anyone who can study nature so intensely that they can cast spells from it, either.

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Suppose we make a house rule that says that Druidic can only be spoken by druids. Under this rule, the ability to speak Druidic is really more of an exclusive class feature than it is merely the ability to speak a language. It resembles the Hive Mind of formians, which is powered by the telepathy of their queen. Unless you are a formian, you can't benefit from the Hive Mind at all.

If the Druidic language really is so extraordinary that only druids can speak it, what does this mean for the Tongues spell? As others have pointed out, the Tongues spell normally enables you to speak any language at all, whether it is "secret" or not. You can even use the Tongues spell to create a Pearl of Speech that any old fool can use to speak Druidic perfectly.

In my opinion, if you're going to make the Druidic language an extraordinary communication tool that only Druids can use, it is best to make the Tongues spell incapable of replicating it. Otherwise, the advantage of magic power over mundane skill is only enhanced even further. As a friend of mundanes, I don't like this consequence.

If we stick to the Rules as Written, Druidic is only a mundane language, indeed a language spoken primarily by creatures of the Humanoid type. There is no reason why it cannot be taught, by ex-druids and blighters, to anyone who has the patience to learn it. The ability to speak Druidic can also be bought, in the form of a Pearl of Speech, for the price of 600 gold pieces. Although druids try to keep their language a secret, they are perfectly aware that non-druids can learn their language or use magic to replicate it. They use the Detect Magic spell to scan any stranger who speaks Druidic to them. They probably have severe punishments for non-druids who impersonate druids, and even more severe punishments for ex-druids who set up schools to teach Druidic to non-druids for profit, or for spellcasters who publicly sell Pearls of Speech that bestow the power to speak Druidic.

Post-Script: On the Material Plane as I imagine it as a dungeon master, the written form of Druidic consists of hieroglyphs that do not resemble the sounds of spoken Druidic, but rather concepts. Druidic glyphs are the oldest form of writing still in use by Humanoids, but they are also the original model for all the younger writing systems of the world. This historical fact is what enables Druidic to be deciphered by people who have Decipher Script skill. I consider the Decipher Script DC of all languages written in pictograms or ideograms to be basically 30, but if a language of this kind is a secret language, I raise the DC to 40. (If you make a Decipher Script check at DC 50 or higher, you can decipher magical writing.)

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Originally Posted by Duke of Urrel

Suppose we make a house rule that says that Druidic can only be spoken by druids. Under this rule, the ability to speak Druidic is really more of an exclusive class feature than it is merely the ability to speak a language. It resembles the Hive Mind of formians, which is powered by the telepathy of their queen. Unless you are a formian, you can't benefit from the Hive Mind at all.

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For all the reasons you give, I conclude that answering the question, or even asking it, adds complications and annoyances, and adds nothing to the game.

I don't want a house rule that says only druids can speak it. I want a general player agreement that we don't bother to mess with it.

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Originally Posted by rel

Yes, as per the SRD a druid can teach the language to a non-druid. This is a violation of their oaths so its clearly possible.

It's a normal language, just like abyssal or ignan. Anyone can learn it but druids don't like to teach it to non-druids.
Think of it as a religious language, commonly used for ceremony and ritual but not everyday conversation.

An enterprising PC or NPC wanting to learn the language (to enter Fochlucan Lyrist for example) should be able to do so without much trouble by either convincing, bribing, tricking, or coercing a tutor, finding a suitable repository of lore, or devising a clever magical solution.

Boasting about your ability to speak druidic as a non-druid may earn you the enmity of druids in some settings.

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For those looking for a more solid rules based approach to learning druidic as a non-druid:
- the Hellbred race know all languages they used to know before being changed, which can obviously include druidic.
- The Shad race got druidic as a bonus language in its 3.5 update (allegedly, I can't find the update any more).
- The Loremaster PRC can (rather appropriately) learn any language including druidic with their bonus language class feature, the normal clause excluding secret languages is not included.
- The Wedded to History (wanderer) feat lets you speak any language with a DC 15 int check which should at least justify spending the linguistics skill points to learn it normally without a tutor.
- the Polyglot feat lets you speak all languages, although it is epic, so qualifying is tricky.
- if you don't mind pathfinder content, the Druidic Decoder feat gives you druidic once you invest 10 ranks into linguistics

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Originally Posted by rel

- the Polyglot feat lets you speak all languages, although it is epic, so qualifying is tricky.

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You know, I always had this little feeling that Polyglot shouldn't have been an epic-level feat. It requires significant enough skill point investment, and let's face it, a feat that replicates *Tongues* isn't really all that out there in terms of game balance.

There's no actual rule against it other than that flavorwise druids refuse to do that. However, the language itself isn't somehow magically impossible to learn by a non-druid.

You could likely learn from a non-druid learned it from a druid.