So how could I make a character who has a ridiculous amount of spells? I been thinking a custom lineage theurgy wizard 14/Tomelock 5/???. I'm not %100 what to grab subclass wise on warlock or for that one floating level.
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So how could I make a character who has a ridiculous amount of spells? I been thinking a custom lineage theurgy wizard 14/Tomelock 5/???. I'm not %100 what to grab subclass wise on warlock or for that one floating level.
That's a wizard level 17 or higher. Straight wizard, doesn't matter the subclass. Wizards have the largest list of spells and a wizard can conceivably know all of them. (I am not counting Theurgy Wizard there, as that was a UA that didn't make a main book and so is not any different to me than any homebrew for the purpose of this question. But, sure, since you can get cleric spells at level up instead of wizard spells, that would get you as many as 19 additional spells beyond what a wizard can get. This only applies to the idea of knowing more spells, not for the other possibilities of what you mean.)
Now, if you mean how do you cast the most spells in a given day, regardless of what the spells are, that is simply any caster of any sort at any level, due to cantrips.
If you mean how do you get the most total spell levels, then we're back to a wizard of level 18 or higher. Being able to cast a 2nd level spell at will overwhelms any other addition of spells that I know of.
If you are asking for the most number of actual spell slots, then I think we're back to a single-class wizard. Multiclassing costs spell slots. If I read things correctly, if you are a 10th-level wizard and decide to pick up a different class (even a full caster), you immediately lose 4 spell slots rather than gain any. Any dip out of straight full caster means a loss of spell slots over all. Pact magic slots from a warlock do not make up for the loss, in power or number.
Ravnica background, dragonmarked race (these both add to your spell list so just pick the one with the greatest number of non wizard spells that you like), wizard at least to 17. Take as many of the spell granting feats as you can (Fey/Shadow Touched, Adept of the Black/Red/White Robes, Strixhaven Initiate, Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster). If your DM allows Theurgy than great but it's an unreleased UA so I wouldn't count on it. I'd probably do Cleric 1 Wizard x because than you can use scrolls and cleric specific staves and other items, in addition to having 1st level cleric spells and a few more cantrips (plus armor and a shield which is always nice).
I'm not sure what you think you would be getting from 5 levels of Tomelock, the book of ancient secrets and a few extra cantrips is nice but a far cry from having all the high level wizard spells.
Are you looking for spells known? In which case, yeah, straight Wizard. Collect all the scrolls and do what you gotta do to grab some of those out-of-list spells.
If you mean spell slots, I can't help you much 'cause I suck at full spellcasters.
I was indeed looking for all spells known, so far my optimal head cannon would be: Theurgy Wizard (I'm not quite banking on it but my DM's cool about it) a dragon mark (how do those work? Can I be a dragon marked variant human and still have an extra feat?) which dragon mark? Now I have maybe 2-3 levels to work with... Cleric with a different domain? Or just straight wiz 20?
Dragonmarks are variant races (found in Eberron: Rising from the Last War), so they are mutually exclusive with Variant Human(For humans, the Dragonmark replaces the Ability Score Increase feature, which Variant human also replaces). Dragonmarks grant(among other features), the ability to cast two spells through the Dragonmark (though you do not learn those spells) and a list of 1st through 5th level spells are added to the class spell list for all your classes.
So, Wiz 17 can have every spell on the wizard list. That's like at least 500 spells, but it's the same for any 17+ wizard, so we'll leave it there. A Theurgy wizard can add one cleric spell per level instead of a wizard spell, so that can be as many as 19. But, if we stop at 17 wiz and multiclass into cleric or druid, we can get up to level 2 spells there without reducing the number of wizard spells known. Since they know all spells on their list, just have to prepare them, then it's which of those two have more 1st and 2nd (after factoring in the ones from the cleric list that were taken by Theurgy wiz). I think that's still cleric, so now we have all wizard spells, all cleric spells of level 1, 2, and cantrips, plus another 13 cleric spells of level 3 or higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickster
Dragonmarks take the place of the human race with their own traits, so you do not get the free feat. Mark of Handling will give you the most extra spells at 8 total (assuming that cleric did have more than druid).
And I think we're down to feats. Artificer initiate is listed separately from magic initiate, so you may be able to get both, which can add an artificer spell and a spell from a bard, druid, or ranger. And Strixhaven initiate can also get you another cantrip and 1st level druid or bard spell. The other spell granting ones are already covered, so there are still feats to be used elsewhere.
I think that's it. I don't have a total count, because getting the total number of wizard spells is ridiculous, and if I can't get that I'm not bothering with the cleric ones.
Aw, man, I completely misunderstood the topic.
Darth Credence mentioned that the Mark of Handling has the most non overlapping spells in terms of race, in terms of background I think that Golgari Agent is your best bet. So at the end of the day you're looking at Mark of Handling, Golgari Agent. Theurge Wizard 17 Twilight Cleric 3 (Most non overlapping domain spells). That'll get you access to all the wizard spells, all the first and second level cleric spells, the twilight cleric domain spells, about 14 extra spells from your background and then a about 10 3rd level or higher cleric spells. Pick up a couple of bard and warlock only 1st and 2nd level spells via feats and you'll have everything save for a couple like Glibness and Find Greater Steed. But I guess you can just use Wish if you really need them.
I was about to post one of those "Ahem" things ... but I see that there is no need. :smallcool:Quote:
Originally Posted by LibraryOgre
What if I go bladesinger wizard 17 / twilight cleric 3? Mark of handling and golgari background?
if you want to maximize the number of spells you can cast at a moments notice then you're looking at a weird hodge-podge where you multiclass into basically all the full caster classes. at least 1 level in each would technically max. thats because the first level in a casting class gives the most bang for you buck...or rather, the most spells available/level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickster
for example: the first level of wizard gives you 1+int mod spells you can prepare. say 3 and int of 14. every level after that only adds 1 per level except for the levels that you get an ASI, which give 2. both druid and cleric are similar. then spontaneous casters each have their own numbers. 2 for sorcerer and warlock and 4 for bard.
cleric levels give an average of 2 spells per level up to level 9 because of their domain spells. and land druids almost match that because they too get domain spells.
but the reason you still would want to multiclass is not just the leveled spells, but also the cantrips. when you add in cantrips, you can't match taking 1 level in each full caster class for most numbers of spells available at any given moment.
basically what i think this would look like is sorc/lock/bard/wizard 1, cleric 9, druid 7, to *actually* maximize spells. but a far less ugly, while also less optimal, way to do it would be to pick 5 caster classes that you take 4 levels each in. that way you get your ASI's at the levels you're meant to, rather than at weird times.
11th level Wizard gets 4/3/3/3/2/1Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence
11th level Cleric gets 4/3/3/3/2/1
11th level (Wizeric) gets... 4/3/3/3/2/1
????
Eh, I think it's probably worth losing a single ASI in exchange for 3rd level spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazaryu
Either 4 classes at 5 levels each, OR 3 classes at 5 levels, one at 4, and a single dip in a fifth for the cantrips.
For the 4 class option, Bard/Cle/Dru/Wiz skip Sorcerer because too much overlap with the Wizard list.
maybe? im not so sure, you lose out on a significant amount of spells known for that, and also 1 classes worth of core abilities, while at the same time adding a ton of options to take up your very limited spell selections.Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
but even then i'd probably not skip sorcerer. for one, the overlap with wizard doesn't matter, there's plenty of good spells on that list, and you're only getting a few of them from each class anyway, and if its that much of a problem, you can spread the sorcerer spells even thinner by going divine soul so you can share with cleric.
but mostly i'd not skip sorcerer because if you're going to be playing this multiclass in a high level campaign, you need to be able to make the most of your spells. and metamagic is a great boon for doing that.
in fact, if you want to drop anything its probably the druid, so that you can grab warlock. reason being...well, the short rest spell slots for one, but also because you're not going to have access to high impact 5th level+ spells, ever (outside of scrolls you buy/find). so having a solid at-will option becomes highly desireable. even if you don't take agonizing blast you can get good utility from things like repelling blast and mask of many faces. of course...this does trade off even more spells known as you lose out on land druid "domain" spells.
I've actually been theorycrafting this for a while, and while you can build it in several different ways, for several different purposes. in terms of optimizing warlock/sorcerer are basically mandatory. largely because of how well they work together to form a solid baseline that allows you to sacrifice all of your high level spells and still be viable. then, likely the goal is to build versatility, so one of cleric or druid is probably a good bet, not just for the expanded spell access but also due to being prepared casters. the final slot(s) are more open I think. but as a core i think you always want warlock, sorcerer and one of the wis casters. I tend to favor cleric...mostly because i prefer the class overall. but also because it has a strong level 1 impact and basically no dead levels until after level 5.
But this kinda gets into why i actually favor the 4x5 method. not only do you get more ASI's, you end up getting more abilities. you trade 3rd level spell slots for a 5th class' worth of core abilities. and all the caster classes have solid low level options. IMO that added versatility in your build is worth losing the raw power 3rd level spells. especially since versatility and utility is...really all you have going for you. the more varied options you give yourself, the more combo's you're going to be able to find.
I am so glad you pointed that out, because I had completely misread the table. I was starting at the cantrips and counting from there, having not rolled up to the top of the table to see that I was a column off. It didn't make any sense to me, losing slots, but I figured it was just a weird quirk since I don't deal with multiclassing. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
Wizard should be an auto include then, no? As you can eventually have ALL the available Wizard spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazaryu
Also pointing out that Lore Bard 6 can give you -ANY- two spells you want. Paladin only? Not anymore!
i mean...in your spell book. sure. but that isn't the same as being able to cast them at a moments notice. at that point it just puts you on par with clerics/druids in terms of being able to prepare anything on their spell lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by grarrrg
wizard *is* always a strong contender, of course. find familiar is a useful spell and also wizard makes a solid utility spell dump for spells that you *want* but don't care about the associated ability score (i.e. shield, absorb elements, detect magic, identify (no need to prepare), invisibility, etc..) the thing that makes the wizard "solid" for this specifically is they have a couple of utility rituals you can pick up that you never need to prepare (alarm, identify, find familiar) in addition to being able to prepare all those other utility spells.
sure, at the cost of an ASI and 2 levels in another class. it *is* worth considering, although i'd recommend first checking to see if those spells are on any druid/cleric domain lists. but yeah you can throw bard on their. its not neccesarily optimal from the perspective of "highest number of spells" but if you shrink that goal down to just "lots more spells than normal" then its probably fine. I personally much prefer the prettiness of 5x4, but the concept overall is flexible enough to allow for some massaging of those numbers to player preference.Quote:
Also pointing out that Lore Bard 6 can give you -ANY- two spells you want. Paladin only? Not anymore!
OP confirmed that they wanted the most possible number of spells known, not the most able to cast at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazaryu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickster
spells known are the spells you can cast at a moments notice...at least thats what i gathered from their confirmation. they want to have the most spells available to them. thats why they're talking about dragonmarks...the things that give you more spells to cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence
granted it could be that I've misunderstood them, but I don't really see anything in their posts that contradicts that idea
I understand the interpretation, but I started off by asking this question and got the specific answer of most spells known. I gave four different ideas of what they could mean by the question, with one of them being the most spells known and tying that to a high level wizard getting every wizard spell, and they said that was what they meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by kazaryu
Dragonmarks specifically give you more spells known - the mark of handling gives a bunch of druid spells, which is why it seemed the best choice if you are doing this. It does give two of those spells as a per short rest thing, but that doesn't do any more than starting as a fairy or genasi would. If we say most spells that can be cast at a moment's notice, then those would be better than dragonmarked, because they give two spells and a cantrip, instead of just two spells.
I think the most persuasive evidence, though, is that one of the options I gave was the total number of spell slots one could use in a day. That one broke clearly for a Wiz 18, because at that level they get spell mastery, and could conceivably fire off a trio of magic missiles every 6 seconds, or become nightcrawler by misty stepping every 6 seconds (FTR, this is a nightmare that is coming to me when the bladesinger in our group hits level 18 - I have no doubt that he will take misty step for mastery, and he will use it for pretty close to every bonus action he takes.)
I could be wrong, of course - already have been in this thread when I misread a table. Trickster and I may just not have communicated well. But if so, the conclusions thus far may be wrong and need to be looked at closer.
as i said, its possible that that's what they meant. the potential miscommunication I see is that none of your 4 options were "highest variety of spells to cast at any given moment" and you drew no distinction between "knowing" a spell (as in, the wizard has it in their spell book) and "spells known" (as in the spells you are able to cast at any given moment). this of course got compounded by the fact that OP didn't really draw a distinction either, they just said "yeah, i want more spells known). and while its *possible* the former is what OP meant. the latter makes more sense to me, as a goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Credence
That said, going back and forth discussing what someone else meant is, i think, fruitless. If OP doesn't show back up to clarify then this whole thread has run its course anyway lol
Sorry for the late reply, guy's but I meant how much variety could I get in one character? How many spells, combined, could the character cast? Basically I want to know if one character could have access to almost all the spells in the game within the 20 level prison we're given.
well, technically if you get to 17 in a class that can cast it, which allows you to cast any spell 8th level or lower 1/day, but i doubt that's what you meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trickster
other than that you can't really approach "access" to all spells without magic items. mizziums aparatus lets you make an arcana check to cast any spell thats on your spell list, even if its not prepared. and then obviously purchasing scrolls/wands of various spell casts. Im not saying that this is something thats reasonable to do, just pointing out the only way to really approach being able to cast almost all the spells in the game.
speaking in terms of "the best you can do" the issue you run into is that the higher you go in a single class, the thinner the levels tend to get in terms of spell known per level. Which is how you end up with that weird hodge podge of multiclassing that i suggested. purely optimizing for number of spells know/level you can get a pretty high number (50s or 60s, Im pretty sure, maybe higher) but a huge portion of them are cantrips and basically all of them are 5th level and lower (because of the multi-classing). but thats just because that particular idea takes advantage of how dense the lower levels of caster classes are in terms of spells know/prepared.