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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
The actual Top Ten haven't changed, but I broke down the list of runners-up some more.
Habitual statistics:Spoiler
Show
More than a third of the suggestions (54) have only one vote. There are 15 negative votes so far; 34 voters have used all their votes, 23 have only used one, and 19 of the remaining 22 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.
http://sparklines.bitworking.info/sp...r=gray&width=2
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phaederkiel
oh, i think I throw 3 towards the manyfang dagger. No matter how you look at it, it is stupidly overpowered. Knowledge devotion, craven, or (if you want to get creative) iaijutsu master are not even needed, a simple strength bonus is all it needs to break.
might I nominate the halberd of vaulting (arms and equipment 109, gives 30 to jump, removes max jump distance, deals double damage after a jumpcharge) ?
I'd like to give it one vote.
Another 3 I want to give to incorporality/ghosts and how they manifest. I wanted to throw a ghost which charges at my players and could not even with help of the forum figure out how that really works. It's main problem was to find out if ghost add strenght to their attacks.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archi...?t-232034.html
-1 vote for factotum as a whole, it is a bit powerful but very fun to play.
1 for white raven tactics beeing usable on the user (which was ruled by the custserv, which makes it kinda offical. Or was that one culled, at last?)
1 for abrupt jaunt. That ability is an abomination AND poorly worded. And its seeing a lot of use.
All added, although I have to admit I've never found [incorporeal] that tricky to understand. I guess most of the confusion with ghosts comes from the difference between its existence on the Ethereal plane (not incorporeal, retains Str score etc) and its manifestation on the Material (incorporeal, no Str).
Quote:
where does that come from? sounds good.
Aristotle, presumably translated. I found it randomly on a quote snippet app (Snarl's Clock+, to be precise).
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edit: oops sorry. I didnt want to necro.
Yeah, well, these things happen. I'm kinda gratified you found this thread, actually. :smallredface:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShriekingDrake
1 for mindsight, which is vexing to implement and difficult to interpret.
Duly noted. (Assuming the thread is not locked, you have nine more votes to spend.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Draz74
My last two votes: a second vote for Diplomacy (Skill), and a vote for Dvati (Race), which I'm astounded hasn't been mentioned yet.
There's really a vast array of ill-written things to choose from. :smallsigh:
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
willpell
What's wrong with Dvati?
I actually don't recall specifically; I just remember a slew of how-does-this-thing-actually-work questions coming up when it was used for some Iron Chef entries.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
willpell
What's wrong with Dvati?
There was a discussion a while back that covered most (all?) of the problems.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
-1 vote for Bloodlines. People need to learn how to read. It's all right there (and in the FAQ)
If I still have votes left in order: Tainted scholar, Dust of sneezing and choking, truenamer
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeedsAnswersNao
-1 vote for Bloodlines. People need to learn how to read. It's all right there (and in the FAQ)
If I still have votes left in order: Tainted scholar, Dust of sneezing and choking, truenamer
You have a total of 10 votes, so you have 6 left, unless you want to adjust some of them up to 2 or 3 each.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I get ten votes? I think I do. Here we go:
3 for Diplomacy. Diplomancy, in any form, is rather poorly thought out.
3 for Monk. I mean, it's so poorly thought out.
2 for Iron Heart Surge.
1 each for Manyfang Dagger and Cheezing/Snoking Sneezing and Choking dust.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
All right, update time again.
The usual statistics:Spoiler
Show
More than a third of the suggestions (54) have only one vote. There are 16 negative votes so far out of 433 total; 35 voters have used all their votes, 23 have only used one, and 20 of the remaining 23 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.
http://sparklines.bitworking.info/sp...r=gray&width=2
By the way, does anyone care about those?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eugenides
I get ten votes? I think I do. Here we go:
3 for Diplomacy. Diplomancy, in any form, is rather poorly thought out.
3 for Monk. I mean, it's so poorly thought out.
2 for Iron Heart Surge.
1 each for Manyfang Dagger and Cheezing/Snoking Sneezing and Choking dust.
Gotta admit, I chuckled at that spoonerism. :smallamused: And yes, you get 10 votes total (-1 votes count as 1 of those, not that you likely care), and you hadn't previously used any.
A note on sort order: I take care to make sure the Top Ten remain stable, such that ties leave them in the same relative position. So IHS doesn't quite make it to #2, and Diplomacy doesn't quite crack #10. Everything else I just let Excel sort, and it's not necessarily stable.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tuggyne
Gotta admit, I chuckled at that spoonerism. :smallamused:
True story: I typed it that way, and then realized that I should leave it in there because it was just too good to delete.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I can hardly understand why IHS gets so much hate, while white raven tactics stands yet unashamedly tall.
I mean, sure, IHS is stupidly open ended while failing to deliver against those effects it was made to end, which means it is quite borked, and it can pop up often enough.
But that is little compared to the custserv ruling, that WRT can be used by the Initiator on himself. This will not only pop up often, but every round of every single combat...
You can now say that no sane DM is not going to banhammer such abuse, but thats the case with almost anything on the list.
And I thnk abrupt jaunt gets to little, too. I mean, RAW it doesn't even eat an immediate, so you can jaunt multiple times in one turn. And even with that restriction in play, it is still dominating.
(wizard to barbarian: "no, let ME block his charge. He ain't gonna hit me.")
Not to mention that it gives WAY more than the other substitutions, substitutes something which is more of a liability anyway, and does such for a tier1 class to boot.
seeing this, i am afraid i have to abandon my Halberd of vaulting and add another to the jaunt. It needs at least to break the dishonorable.
(the halberd, btw, has spawned a complete build...)
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
WRT is more powerful than IHS, especially with the stupid CustServ ruling. But IHS is quite possibly "more poorly written" -- more poorly defined, more likely to spawn at-table debates, and more breaking of verisimilitude (since it ends an entire effect, rather than just the effect on the initiator).
And anyway, a typical initiator isn't going to be using WRT every round. It won't get recovered that often (unless RKV abuse, idiot Crusaders, or two initiators helping each other out are involved).
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Love this thread. :smallsmile:
I am surprised that the Feat "Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu" (Sandstorm) hasn't been mentioned, but maybe it's just dumb, not "worst written". ;)
Truenamer is terrible, a worthy winner.
I would also like to nominate Metamagic reduction feats that allow for a +0 Metamagic to count as a -1. That's so silly, it needs to be stomped out, and maybe it has.
EDIT: Don't count my mentions here, maybe I will think this through and provide a proper vote list sometime later.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thespianus
I am surprised that the Feat "Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu" (Sandstorm) hasn't been mentioned, but maybe it's just dumb pure tongue-in-cheek AWESOMENESS, not "worst written". ;)
Fixed That For You.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
yeah, that feat is great. Are there more feats this awesome out there? I mean "damage as if bitten by a hyppopotamus" is quite likely the best flaw a feat has ever had.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu is perfectly well-written. It's just that you have to ask "Why would I ever take that?", and then you have to ask "Why have I not ever taken that?"
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
One more update....
The usual statistics:Spoiler
Show
More than a third of the suggestions (53) have only one vote. There are 16 negative votes so far out of 433 total; 35 voters have used all their votes, 23 have only used one, and 20 of the remaining 23 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.
http://sparklines.bitworking.info/sp...r=gray&width=2
You know, one of the funny things is how few problems with psionics were mentioned. (There's probably a few that should have been included, but got left out, but even so, it's impressive.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phaederkiel
I can hardly understand why IHS gets so much hate, while white raven tactics stands yet unashamedly tall.
I mean, sure, IHS is stupidly open ended while failing to deliver against those effects it was made to end, which means it is quite borked, and it can pop up often enough.
But that is little compared to the custserv ruling, that WRT can be used by the Initiator on himself. This will not only pop up often, but every round of every single combat...
You can now say that no sane DM is not going to banhammer such abuse, but thats the case with almost anything on the list.
Mostly I'd make a distinction between "overly powerful" and "poorly-written". Spells like solid fog or color spray are arguably too powerful despite being clearly written, and of course there are a lot of things that are written so poorly they are less powerful than intended. Other than that, essentially Draz74's remarks.
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And I thnk abrupt jaunt gets to little, too. I mean, RAW it doesn't even eat an immediate, so you can jaunt multiple times in one turn. And even with that restriction in play, it is still dominating.
(wizard to barbarian: "no, let ME block his charge. He ain't gonna hit me.")
Not to mention that it gives WAY more than the other substitutions, substitutes something which is more of a liability anyway, and does such for a tier1 class to boot.
Abrupt Jaunt is very good, but it is at least somewhat use-limited. (Also, I'm pretty sure it is specifically labeled as an immediate action.)
However, it does have a rather incomplete explanation of how it interacts with various attacks and spells, so it's not a bad entry for the list.
Note: at four votes total, it doesn't get into the Dishonorable Mentions this time.
Quote:
seeing this, i am afraid i have to abandon my Halberd of vaulting and add another to the jaunt. It needs at least to break the dishonorable.
(the halberd, btw, has spawned a complete build...)
Little Red Raiding Hood, no?
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I'll mention a problem with psionics: at level 4, a Nomad gets Psionic Fly (a level 3 spell), while an Egoist gets Metamorphosis, also known as "self-only Polymorph which also lets you turn into a cube of solid metal and gain the Hardness thereof". Metamorphosis lets you assumed winged forms, thereby completely outclassing Psionic Fly, while also letting you do pretty much everything else imaginable.
But that's not really "bad writing", so much as "bad design".
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tuggyne
You know, one of the funny things is how few problems with psionics were mentioned. (There's probably a few that should have been included, but got left out, but even so, it's impressive.)
Well, there's a clear candidate here. A common mistake is that psionics are overpowered since you can boost a psionic power by putting in more power points. The reason this isn't overpowered is because there's a strict limit to how many power points you can put in (depending on your level) but because that part of the book is badly written, many people have missed that clause.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Ebon Eyes. How has this thread gone ten pages without Ebon Eyes?
Quote:
The subject of this spell gains the ability to see normally in natural and magical darkness, although it does not otherwise improve the subject's ability to see in natual dark or shadowy conditions. The subject ignores the miss chance due to lack of illuminarion other than total darkness.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
@Telok: What is your problem with the spell? It's useful for Orcs i.e.
My negative (-1) vote goes to the truenamer. I have no idea why people think it's so bad/bad written/broken bad. I mean has anyone read the whole chapter and played a truenamer with a bit of thinking about it's mechanic? I mean I played one at level 11 without Item Familiar or other cheese I got +57 to truenaming and all "metamagic" feats. I was able to quicken an utterance each round and none of my utterances allowed SR or saves. That's not really bad for a battlefield controller.
My other votes go to Shapechange (it's a nice idea but ridiciously overpowered), dust of sneezing and choking, Hulking Hurler, Thought Bottle, Traps (I mean the price is rediciously) and three votes (+3) go to the Leadership-Feat (it's just really really bad made).
And another negative (-1) vote goes to Persistent Spells. They are mostly balanced, just the metamagic adjustment reductions make it (as the most +adjustment and thus the most powerful) seem like OP.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
My vote is for Opalescent Glare, from Spell Compendium. It's a 4th level spell that was supposed to give you a one shot gaze attack... but as written, it permanently makes you gain a gaze attack that causes fear in enemies for 1d10 rounds. Probably not what was supposed to happen there.
JaronK
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JaronK
My vote is for Opalescent Glare, from Spell Compendium. It's a 4th level spell that was supposed to give you a one shot gaze attack... but as written, it permanently makes you gain a gaze attack that causes fear in enemies for 1d10 rounds. Probably not what was supposed to happen there.
JaronK
*reads spell*
Wow, you're right. Not only does that spell give you a gaze attack forever, it does so completely unambiguously. That is just a masterpiece of bad writing, I give it two votes.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I put 3 votes for Mercurial Strike (Dragon Compendium p. 102) It lets you draw your weapon and attack whenever your opponent provokes and opportunity attack from you and you are unarmed. It also renders the target flat footed. The problem is that if you are unarmed you don't threaten any squares so they can't provoke an opportunity attack.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I've just checked that Opalescent Gaze then thinking "that can't be right", and holy damn... That was stupid. Chalk one up for the Artificer's Power Scale. I could understand if it was a Permanent Effect, it could at least be dispelled (although being available on the Domain list at 4 would be a bit powerful).
So +1 Vote to OPALESCENT GAZE.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
I seem to have pulled my usual annoying stunt of leaving the last few posts untended. :smallredface:
That said, here are the usual statistics once again:Spoiler
Show
More than two fifths of the suggestions (53) have only one vote. There are 18 negative votes so far out of 446 total; 35 voters have used all their votes, 26 have only used one, and 22 of the remaining 26 have used between 2 and 5 votes each.
http://sparklines.bitworking.info/sp...r=gray&width=2
Also, we're up to 125 entries! Impressive.
Also, a random selection of possibly-deserving entries that have only one vote each:{table=head]Name|Type
Illumian power words | Ability
Diehard | Feat
dead | Combat
CW Samurai | Base Class
Antagonize | Feat
Festering Hate | Disease
Planar Ally/Planar Binding | Spell
Versatile Spellcaster | Feat
Ice Assassin | Spell
Wish | Spell[/table]
Anyone have suggestions on making the votelog a bit less densely unreadable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Well, there's a clear candidate here. A common mistake is that psionics are overpowered since you can boost a psionic power by putting in more power points. The reason this isn't overpowered is because there's a strict limit to how many power points you can put in (depending on your level) but because that part of the book is badly written, many people have missed that clause.
I guess that's true, though kind of baffling. (It doesn't seem that hard to notice.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telok
Ebon Eyes. How has this thread gone ten pages without Ebon Eyes?
What's wrong with ebon eyes exactly?
(Note that you have 9 votes left, and could put another couple on that if you wanted.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tr011
My negative (-1) vote goes to the truenamer. I have no idea why people think it's so bad/bad written/broken bad. I mean has anyone read the whole chapter and played a truenamer with a bit of thinking about it's mechanic? I mean I played one at level 11 without Item Familiar or other cheese I got +57 to truenaming and all "metamagic" feats. I was able to quicken an utterance each round and none of my utterances allowed SR or saves. That's not really bad for a battlefield controller.
Seems to me people fall into one of three groups regarding truenamers:- They've played them, but (due to decent optimization, unusual circumstances, or differing expectations) they don't think they're that bad; for example, Tyndmyr
- They've played them and lost their ability to taste ice cream; e.g., Zaq
- They haven't played them but have heard the horror stories about loss of ice cream sensation, or have read those sections of the book carefully; I am one of these
But for whatever reason, reasonable people who have played the class do sometimes disagree on whether it's terribad without a lot of work, or merely mediocre to half-decent. (OTOH, no one I know of claims Truenamers are OP at any level besides 20th.)
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My other votes go to Shapechange (it's a nice idea but ridiciously overpowered), dust of sneezing and choking, Hulking Hurler, Thought Bottle, Traps (I mean the price is rediciously) and three votes (+3) go to the Leadership-Feat (it's just really really bad made).
And another negative (-1) vote goes to Persistent Spells. They are mostly balanced, just the metamagic adjustment reductions make it (as the most +adjustment and thus the most powerful) seem like OP.
Nothing much to say here, except that Leadership, while bad, doesn't seem that bad to me. (Of course, I didn't give more than one vote to anything at all in the end; there were way too many good candidates. :smalltongue:)
Also, are you aware you have one vote left?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JaronK
My vote is for Opalescent Glare, from Spell Compendium. It's a 4th level spell that was supposed to give you a one shot gaze attack... but as written, it permanently makes you gain a gaze attack that causes fear in enemies for 1d10 rounds. Probably not what was supposed to happen there.
Makes poor old Takahashi look pretty feeble. But just one vote? :smalltongue: If so, nine votes left for you....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sith_Happens
Wow, you're right. Not only does that spell give you a gaze attack forever, it does so completely unambiguously. That is just a masterpiece of bad writing, I give it two votes.
Heh, you caught me just as I was about to update, you rogue. (8 votes left for you, by the way.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GnomeGninjas
I put 3 votes for Mercurial Strike (Dragon Compendium p. 102) It lets you draw your weapon and attack whenever your opponent provokes and opportunity attack from you and you are unarmed. It also renders the target flat footed. The problem is that if you are unarmed you don't threaten any squares so they can't provoke an opportunity attack.
Nooo~ not two more posts! I shall never be done!
But yes, that is an excellent choice (7 votes left), although note that if you have IUS you can still use it properly I think. I assume it's a feat?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vaz
I've just checked that Opalescent Gaze then thinking "that can't be right", and holy damn... That was stupid. Chalk one up for the Artificer's Power Scale. I could understand if it was a Permanent Effect, it could at least be dispelled (although being available on the Domain list at 4 would be a bit powerful).
Duly noted, and yeah, I think it deserves a lot of bashing.... Like Jaron, you have 9 votes to go.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Dead is a little stupid, in that it doesn't actually have any status attached to it. While you could probably "RAW" that you can actually do everything you did while alive after you've bitten the dust and gone to -10 HP, and that until you heal to -9 HP or more, you effectively have infinite health with no penalties, I'd love to meet a DM who will do that. Others are terribly written, others have glaring errors and usage prerequisites that can never be met, as well as the Feat that outright penalises you with no benefit, that can be DM fudged, or having an argument swung either way, dead, however, is dead. While it's stupid that something so rules heavy should miss out the effects of being dead, it's certainly not among worst-written.
1 Vote goes for Exemplar's ability to use any skill for Diplomacy. We get Arseplomancer, Jumplomancer, etc, those actually involve taking an action, whether it's crawling inside your own bum, breaking the laws of physics by jumping 300metres and taking longer to do it than running it (actually 1 vote goes to jumping here as well), you actually do something. Even Speaking Languages can make sense, by impressing them with your talent in teaching languages. Autohypnosis, Control Shape (admittedly, removed in 3.5), Concentration, Listen, Lucid Dreaming, Iaijutsu Focus, Spot and Search can all be used to generate a Fanatical Response, simply by standing there. Hide can be used to actively impress people by simply becoming invisible. While Sleight of Hand can be used for Card Tricks, it also includes Pick Pocket - so you can impress people by stealing from them. Swim allows you to make people love you. Even if there's no water near by, you're on the elemental plane of earth, or fire or something.
Other poorly written ones, I'd also put about 4 votes in for CW Samurai. It's a Maneuvreable Tough Front Line Fighter built to deal damage using their Intelligence and Wisdom to power their skills and abilities while also being extremely intimidating but capable of cultivating a true rapport with everyone they meet. It's completely MAD but with no Synergy whatsoever.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tuggyne
Nooo~ not two more posts! I shall never be done!
But yes, that is an excellent choice (7 votes left), although note that if you have IUS you can still use it properly I think. I assume it's a feat?
It is a feat. It is dubious wether or not IUS works however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Improved unarmed strike
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Support vote for alignment and epic spellcasting.
Also Paladin's code and similiar stuff, like Knight's code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tuggyne
What's wrong with ebon eyes exactly?
Unclear/contradictory wording?
Quote:
Originally Posted by spell compendium
The subject of this spell gains the
ability to see normally in natural and
magical darkness, although it does
not otherwise improve the subject’s
ability to see in natural dark or
shadowy conditions.
So, the subject can see in the dark. But what does the second clause means?
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Salbazier
So, the subject can see in the dark. But what does the second clause means?
It's clear to me. Giving a creature the ability to see in the dark is a level 2 PHB spell, but it does not allow to see in magical darkness.
This spell, Ebon Eyes, however does the opposite, it doesn't give the ability to see in the darkness, but if you already can see in the darkness, you can also see in magical darkness.
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Re: Top Ten Worst-Written Spells, Class Features, Racial Abilities, Feats, Items, etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tr011
It's clear to me. Giving a creature the ability to see in the dark is a level 2 PHB spell, but it does not allow to see in magical darkness.
This spell, Ebon Eyes, however does the opposite, it doesn't give the ability to see in the darkness, but if you already can see in the darkness, you can also see in magical darkness.
I think that may be the intended effect. The word 'natural' in the first clause confuse the whole thing, however. There is the also the second part of the spell that I didn't quote (no miss chance from darkness less than total darkness). If it doesn't give ability to see in the dark, why no miss chance? (arbitrary spell effect is a thing, but this feel rather odd) If it does, well, its redundant.Maybe not the 'worst-written' kind of thing, but the whole spell could use a rewrite.