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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Malifice
The movie tried to explain that in the first scene. Basically it's because Hux is totally incompetent.
Yes, he is...and yet he is in military charge of an organization that has utterly destroyed the New Republic, eclipsed the Empire in destructive capability, has bigger/better/faster ships and technology, and more men and materiel than the Empire. But Snoke apparently hasn't read the Evil Overlord list at all, Hux is derided by his own subordinates, and Ren is barely focused on his job. So how did the First Order achieve those things in the first sentence. Massive cognitive dissonance occurs.
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Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
He is. Snoke even says so to Kylo Ren. Snoke is not as clever as he thinks he is and he has surrounded himself with ideologically correct but incompetent minions on purpose because they're easy for him to manipulate. (And he really should have read the evil overlord list, boasting about how easy to manipulate your trusted lieutenant is whilst he's right there in the room is awfully close to #77)
But then how did the First Order reach the current level of power? One can argue that it isn't important for this story because it wasn't explained for the Empire in ANH or Empire...but I feel that argument lacks applicability. We have now seen what comes before the First Order. We have seen the fall of the Empire and know the principals responsible for undoing that established entity. A few comments about non-aggression treaties in TFA are all we are given and we are to accept that a new bigger, better, more dangerous Empire is allowed to arrive on the scene and one that didn't have the Galactic Republic's resources to build. I think that is a shortfalling of the new films. Alone, no big deal, but in the context of even just the feature movies it is a distracting question.
In short, the new republic either didn't know (given the scale, this suggests huge incompetence) or they new and let it happen (in which case it is akin to Nero fiddling)...and either way is suggests the New Republic and its leaders...including our heroes...didn't do a good job and earn less credit/sympathy/whatever.
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Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
Gonna be blunt: Akbar is way overblown in the fandom and isn't worth talking about.
I'm with you here...in the movies at least he is all reputation, no execution. Heck, Lando coordinates the successful engagement at Endor.
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Originally Posted by
Razade
The fans deserve nothing.
By this do you mean "the fanboys that I disagree with", "the vocal folks who drive a lot of the collateral purchses" or "the casual people who buy the rest of the tickets"? Or something else?
The franchise is theirs to ruin (or improve or whatever), for certain. But the idea that the unwashed masses should be happy with whatever art dribbles forth from the goblet of the masters is a dangerous perspective for a lower-mid-level talent (in terms of production to date) to have. Particularly since he's already "sold out".
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Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Maybe you should watch that movie again, because when he fights Vader in the throne room Luke gives in to his fear at Vader's taunting and strikes in anger and that's how he actually wins. It's only shock at dealing the same wound to Vader in blind rage that he was dealt on Cloud City that lets him pull away from the Dark Side.
The Luke Skywalker you remember is an idealised version, not the one from the films.
(This is also why what's revealed in TLJ is actually appropriate. It's a mistake that Luke continually makes despite repeated lessons (the cave on Dagobah, Cloud City). He pulls away from it every time, but every time the Dark Side is right there with him. This is the time he really didn't get away with it).
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Originally Posted by
Zalabim
Spoiler: Huge spoiler
Show
Luke Skywalker went to Ben Solo in the middle of the night because he sensed something wrong and wanted to talk to him. Standing over the sleeping Ben, Luke looks into Ben's mind and has a vision of Ben destroying everything that they had fought for. I took that literally. Luke literally had a vision of Ben wiping out the new Jedi Order, destroying the New Republic, and leading a new wave of tyranny across the galaxy. (Just like he actually does as Kylo Ren) And it's too late to change his mind. Fear grips Luke in that moment and he reflexively draws his lightsaber. (Because that's what you do when you're afraid and you have a weapon.) The only way to stop this vision from becoming true is to kill Ben now. No, that's absurd. Luke is not going to kill his nephew. Shut up, Dark Side. Unfortunately, Ben Solo already woke up, misunderstood the situation in fear himself, overpowered Luke, and the rest is motion pictures.
Was that vision a true prophecy from the force, something spawned by Luke's apprehension, or an illusion conjured by Snoke? Academic questions, since we know it does come true. Visions from the force is not a new concept.
Now here's Luke the hermit because he still won't kill Ben, and he can't stop the First Order alone and he can probably imagine that the son of Darth Vader, the teacher of Kylo Ren, the failed master of the new Jedi Order is not a symbol to rally around. Look at how Leia's treated as an extremist, a fearmonger, and an outcast by many in the senate. Having Luke around would just mean losing more allies. When Rey arrives, he didn't know how bad it had gotten. But, again, he's still not going to kill Ben (probably he can't at this point) and he still can't stop the First Order alone. It seems like he's powerless. Certainly he is without hope. Eventually though, he does find the hope and the strength, not to do the impossible, but to do something great and he goes down as a legend. Though I do wish he didn't die with that.
I mean, once someone's at the point where they're rewriting the facts of the movie and the franchise to justify hating the movie, I don't think there's discussion left to be had. But for everyone else, there's this. Why didn't Luke go after Ben? Why didn't Obi-wan try to save Vader? Why didn't Yoda stay and finish off Sheev? Fighting just leads to more anger and fear and guilt. Luke chasing down Kylo Ren isn't going to change his course. Ben was already strong enough to beat Luke before. Kylo Ren is more certain now, and Luke is less. Nothing good can come from confronting Kylo Ren without some new insight.
If the scene played out as we were shown, saying it shouldn't have isn't rewriting facts...it is expressing a preference for a different approach.
I could totally buy the vision being of such intensity that it triggers an instinctive reaction (the vision is so lifelike and intense that he simply reacts to a threat in the vision by drawing his weapon)...but the reaction from there forward could have been so much more in character in my opinion and could still have led to the same conclusion (Ren still minion of Snoke, Luke still absent from the picture early) and avoided all the baggage. The "accidental" confrontation was a trigger that could have led to efforts by Luke to fix things that didn't work out...he has to study and learn more to overcome...that's why he is sequestered. Seeking ancient knowledge, whatever. Just not cashing it in.
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Originally Posted by
Devonix
Luke did not contemplate killing Ben. Luke Never contemplated killing Ben.
How the scene played out was that he went to see Ben sleeping, felt a darkness there and reacted with his lightsaber as if it he were seeing an immediate threat. He saw what he was doing and immediatly hated how he could even think that for a second and turned it off.
He didn't formulate a plan on smothering a baby in it's crib, he saw something scary, picked up a weapon for a second and then put it down when he realized what he was doing.
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Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Well which is it? Did he do something horrible enough to justify giving up and exiling himself to an island where he can indulge his self-loathing? Or was what he did really not that bad and totally understandable and he's just an overreacting drama queen?
For me, it's lose/lose. Either the character is betrayed by the writers or... the character is betrayed by the writers. That's the problem.
Again, this is where I am. There were ways to get to the island temple without undercutting the character.
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Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
Continuing to read through the thread. Lots of failure to understand why Holdo wouldn't tell Poe about the plan.
Poe is a recently-demoted junior officer who has no business knowing, has no business asking anything of the Vice Admiral, and needs to learn over the course of this movie that heroism needs to be selfless, not selfish. Holdo owes him nothing, not a word of explanation.
Poe makes his bombing run against orders, getting the entire bombing fleet killed. But he took out a dreadnaught and it was pretty badass! He made a sacrifice! No, Poe did not sacrifice anything himself. He pursued glory for himself and got nearly everyone following him killed in the process. That's not sacrifice. That's being a gloryhound and striking a blow at the First Order because you can.
Poe then makes a plan because he has no faith in the people above him in the chain of command. His plan involves, yet again, striking at the First Order so the resistance can make an escape and it's just crazy enough to have an outside shot at working. Except the people who go to carry out that plan are so out of their depth and wind up getting a guy whose sole motivation is profit, because war profiteering is where it's at. And when Poe sees the shuttlecraft being loaded up, he goes and tells Finn and Rose (thereby clueing in DJ, who gives the First Order enough info to know that shuttlecraft are going to be escaping so they should look harder for them), thereby dooming more people. Again, Poe thinks he's being the hero. He thinks he's being the leader the resistance needs. He's not (as Leia waking up and stunning him in her first act post-coma should make clear).
[SNIP stuff I think is right]
And Poe seems to learn the lesson. Yes, he leads the speeders in their attempt at shutting down the battering ram thing, but when he realizes it's a pointless suicide mission (and that he's throwing out good lives here) with no chance of success and only a chance of being one of those really cool tales of heroism that's actually anything but, he calls it off. Finn didn't have the benefit of learning this lesson the way Poe has and keeps going, and need to learn it another way - and that's what Rose does. And then she says what she says and one of the big messages of the movie becomes clear in that moment because you realize it's been beating you over the head with it and finally just says it explicitly.
And it's a damn important lesson.
Poe is not a junior officer (unless you mean junior just in relation to the Admirals and Vice Admirals), and he is from all that is presented a senior leader. Yup, he disobeyed and deserved being busted. Of course, all of the pilots of the other ships disobeyed exactly the same order. Yes, several ships were lost. The destruction of a ship the size of the dreadnought is a military victory that couldn't be overlooked, though. Even ignoring the tracking issue...that Dreadnought was going to be a massive asset for the Order in the future. Denying the enemy something so significant was too tempting.
But he didn't do it as a glory hound, any more than Rose was being a wannabe hero by her impossible "save" of Finn. He was doing it to achieve an important military goal.
As for the speeder sequence at the end...how was that any better? Yup, Poe acts to save his pilots...but did we have any reason to believe Finn would have disabled the ram had Rose not managed to intercept him right before the collision? Never mind how she got far enough ahead to come from off screen and actually intercept him. It may have, in fact, prevented the ram from destroying the door.
And as for that crap about "saving what we love, not killing what we hate"...Poe and Finn were both trying to save the people they believe in and care about...not carrying out some vengeance-fueled death mission...and doing so for valid reasons. They could have made that message work...but we would have needed some different scenes...maybe Rose being desperate for revenge after the death of her sister and being the one bent on death...or even have Poe go full-on berserker in the salt world. But the situation didn't actually meet the message that was being forced at us.
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Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
No, by that point he knew it wasn't going to work and it was going to kill more people for no reason.
He didn't order Finn to pull out because he wanted to save Finn more than he wanted the attack to succeed, he ordered Finn to pull out because the attack could not possibly have any effect and he would just have died for nothing.
I agree that was his mind set...but do we know that it wouldn't work?
I think a lot of the set pieces of the movie were good...some even wonderful...but the manipulations to get there are what fell short for me.
- M
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Poe was just demoted to junior officer status. He might have been leadership before, but he isn't now. OpSec is a thing, and he's owed no information. Yes, he destroyed the dreadnaught, and that's big, but he didn't have to outright destroy it there. He'd done some significant damage taking out all its hull defense weapons, and that alone is a victory too, and one that was achieved without losing the bombers. Pushing to get the bombers (and them following the hotshot and going along with it when the General said no) because he believed he could do it (because the bombing fleet believed in Poe's abilities?) is hunting for glory. Just because he didn't go and say "I'm going to take down that dreadnaught and it's going to be glorious and I'm going to be awesome and everyone will know I was right" when he did it doesn't mean that his actions don't show a man who is looking to get the big glorious victory and to be proven right.
As for the speeders, as I said Poe seems to have learned judging by the fact he calls off the attempt in the end, but he also shows he has a good way to go because he came up with that stupid plan in the first place. Seriously, those things were death traps even it were a simple joyride without a bunch of enemies in front of them. Pretty much the only reason Poe's not going to be drummed out on his ass or executed for starting a mutiny is because the rebels have so few people that getting rid of him will hurt them more than keeping his dumb ass around (and even then, mostly because he's a main character and not because he's actually useful - if I were General Organa, he'd be dead before the credits rolled).
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
The point is that by doing this at the very last moment in the trilogy, Luke demonstrates that he has not learned not to.
Right, he hasn't learned not to be afraid or to fight out of anger. I have granted that. You are making a leap from there to --> Luke is capable of considering murdering a sleeping kid.
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Right at the very end of his arc in the OT, Luke has not mastered his fear.
What do you call turning his lightsaber off and defying the Emperor? If he was afraid all the way to the end, he would have killed Vader out of fear. He would have given in to the Emperor out of fear. He would have desperately tried to kill the Emperor out of fear, or run out of the throne room out of fear.
He didn't do that. Yes he was manipulated by two of the most powerful dark side users ever. But at the very end, Luke did overcome his fear and did lay his life on the line to redeem his father.
For me, this means Luke isn't the kind of person that would activate his lightsaber over a sleeping kid out of fear. For you, it does.
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That means that any argument about his actions with Ben based on the idea that "Luke Skywalker would be better than that" are wrong, because all of the information we have about what Luke would do is that he would do exactly that.
All the information includes Luke believing in people even after they have fallen very very very far into the dark side.
All the information includes that Luke can be tempted to the dark side by *MASTERS* of the dark side in times of great stress and urgency.
Seriously, the events of the original trilogy do not take us down a road where Luke Skywalker might contemplate killing his sleeping nephew.
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"Your weapons, need them you will not".
Yes, because there is nothing down there that can hurt him.
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Luke does something out of fear and has it demonstrated to him that this could lead him to the dark side.
The message was going to be the same either way; he could be a Darth Vader. He can fall to the dark side. He is susceptible to that temptation like everyone else is. Or do you think Luke would not have been afraid if he had left his lightsaber behind?
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His teacher told him that there was no real threat before he started. Only the fear he took with him and the fear that drove him to action.
It's one of his first lessons, yes.
"I can't believe Luke really considered killing his nephew for a brief second."
"Well, remember that time when he had his first lesson in the Force like forty years ago, and Yoda told him not to take his lightsaber with him into the cave and he did?"
"Uh, yeah..."
"See? He's always been afraid."
"Um... ok..."
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Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
Continuing to read through the thread. Lots of failure to understand why Holdo wouldn't tell Poe about the plan.
Poe is a recently-demoted junior officer who has no business knowing, has no business asking anything of the Vice Admiral, and needs to learn over the course of this movie that heroism needs to be selfless, not selfish. Holdo owes him nothing, not a word of explanation.
This is mischaracterizing Poe, who appears to be the most talented and depended on pilot in the resistance.
Holdo made a mistake in 1. not ordering the medical frigates to light speed ram the First Order ship, and 2. in not explaining the evacuation plan to anyone.
I think we can safely say she did not lead the Resistance well when she was called upon to.
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Poe makes his bombing run against orders, getting the entire bombing fleet killed. But he took out a dreadnaught and it was pretty badass! He made a sacrifice! No, Poe did not sacrifice anything himself. He pursued glory for himself and got nearly everyone following him killed in the process. That's not sacrifice. That's being a gloryhound and striking a blow at the First Order because you can.
We watched a different movie then because in no way does the movie suggest, for even a moment, that Poe was seeking glory in his mission against the Dreadnought. He gave his reason very clearly; it is a fleet killer. Did you see the Resistance fleet at the beginning of the movie? It's not very big. Poe recognized a lethal threat to their resistance, and since they were already set up to destroy it, he ignored orders and led the attack anyways.
Now, as I said originally, you can get on Poe for disobeying orders. Of course. That can be his lesson. He's not in charge and he doesn't get to make those calls.
But to suggest that he did it for glory? Not true.
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Poe then makes a plan because he has no faith in the people above him in the chain of command.
And vice versa. They have no faith in him as well, so Holdo withholds the information from him. He gave her an opportunity to demonstrate to him that she's on top of it and they are saved. But she chose not to. You feel she doesn't owe him anything, and he feels that they are all going to die and he needs to do something.
I'm sure while Holdo was killing herself at the end she thought "Well, at least I put Poe in his place..."
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His plan involves, yet again, striking at the First Order so the resistance can make an escape and it's just crazy enough to have an outside shot at working. Except the people who go to carry out that plan are so out of their depth and wind up getting a guy whose sole motivation is profit, because war profiteering is where it's at. And when Poe sees the shuttlecraft being loaded up, he goes and tells Finn and Rose (thereby clueing in DJ, who gives the First Order enough info to know that shuttlecraft are going to be escaping so they should look harder for them), thereby dooming more people. Again, Poe thinks he's being the hero. He thinks he's being the leader the resistance needs. He's not (as Leia waking up and stunning him in her first act post-coma should make clear).
He *is* being a hero. He *is* saving the Resistance. In the absence of any other information, Poe is doing what he has to save everyone. You're complaining that he has agency and won't stand by and simply get killed as he has every reason to believe he will be.
Again, it's the way in which the movie teaches these lessons. Poe should have known about the plan *and disagreed with it* and enacted his own plan that interfered with Holdo's plan. THAT would be a lesson for Poe.
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Vice Admiral Holdo has a plan that is aimed at minimal casualties, and does exactly what Rose will later say they should do: fight not against what you hate, but for what you love. Holdo is trying to preserve the resistance and give the best shot at survival she can to everybody. She's not in it for glory or accolades. Poe is a hothead junior officer who thinks trench runs win all wars because it worked once. Holdo is an actual leader and shows us the kind of hero the resistance needs. It doesn't need another guy trying to do something crazy that just might work. It needs someone who is willing to put ego aside and do what's best for everyone.
She didn't put ego aside. In fact, between Poe and Holdo, she appears to have the bigger ego when she refuses to tell him anything. It doesn't come across as a leader pulling rank. It comes across as someone that personally has an issue with Poe. At no point does Poe come across as egotistical, except maybe when he says "Permission to fly and blow things up" but that is more a joke because they're undermining the very lesson they're trying to teach us.
We don't need another person doing something crazy. *Holdo proceeds to do something crazy*
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If Poe hadn't sent Finn and Rose on that mission, then staged a mutiny, then blabbed about the shuttles, the shuttles would have made it planetside with no issue and Holdo would have gone down with her ship satisfied in a job well done. But Poe did send them, and staged a mutiny, and blabbed about the shuttles, and then the First Order began firing on the shuttles. Holdo sees what's happening, immediately begins engaging hyperdrive and turning her ship, and rams it into the flagship of the First Order, sacrificing herself to give the best chance of survival. That's a sacrifice. That's heroism. That's your trench run of this movie - it's a desperate, actual last ditch plan, and it works because once again it's not about making a hero out of yourself or beating the bad guy, but about saving those you love.
Can you please back up the claim that Poe does what he does simply to be a hero? Can you please back up the claim that Poe is not motivated by saving people?
Can you please explain why we should give credit to Holdo for doing something that could have been two hours earlier and with hundreds of fewer deaths?
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And Poe seems to learn the lesson. Yes, he leads the speeders in their attempt at shutting down the battering ram thing, but when he realizes it's a pointless suicide mission (and that he's throwing out good lives here) with no chance of success and only a chance of being one of those really cool tales of heroism that's actually anything but, he calls it off. Finn didn't have the benefit of learning this lesson the way Poe has and keeps going, and need to learn it another way - and that's what Rose does. And then she says what she says and one of the big messages of the movie becomes clear in that moment because you realize it's been beating you over the head with it and finally just says it explicitly.
We're definitely walking away from the movie with different messages.
Finn learns from Rose that there is more at stake than simply him and Rey and the Resistance. The whole galaxy is suffering, as he sees in that awful casino planet arc. So he takes that message and realizes that the end of the resistance can mean the end of the galaxy, and he doesn't pull back and he proceeds to try to take the cannon down even at the cost of his own life. And Rose completely ignores the message she was showing Finn (that others are at stake beyond your friend) and she saves him because he is important to her.
This is the kind of roller coaster **** that this movie does from beginning to end. It is not cohesive.
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Originally Posted by pendell
I suspect a lot of the idealization of Luke comes not from the movies but from the post-movies EU. In the books we're reading Luke always sees the best in people and feels bad even about killing assassins who are pursuing. A Luke who, in the Zahn books, needs a Mara to balance him out because he's almost suicidally Too Good To Live.
For my part, I haven't read any EU with Luke in it. I only know him from the original trilogy. I don't think anyone is idealizing him so much as understanding that killing a sleeping kid is extreme for normal people, let alone someone that redeemed Darth Vader at the risk of his own life.
See also everything that PairO'Dice Lost said.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Poe's stated motivation for going after the Dreadnaught is because it's "a fleet killer", which is relevant when your fleet is in the process of fleeing. Maybe he's right, maybe he isn't, but it's not a simple matter of gloryhunting.
It's also not clear if this was Leia's plan in the first place or not, I don't think Poe could have scrambled all those bombers without anyone noticing if it wasn't part of the plan.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
Poe's stated motivation for going after the Dreadnaught is because it's "a fleet killer", which is relevant when your fleet is in the process of fleeing. Maybe he's right, maybe he isn't, but it's not a simple matter of gloryhunting.
It's also not clear if this was Leia's plan in the first place or not, I don't think Poe could have scrambled all those bombers without anyone noticing if it wasn't part of the plan.
It was definitely part of an agreed upon plan. But the evacuation occurred quicker than they anticipated (read: plot contrivance to set Poe up) and Leia ordered that the attack on the Dreadnought was no longer necessary.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
Poe was just demoted to junior officer status. He might have been leadership before, but he isn't now. OpSec is a thing, and he's owed no information. Yes, he destroyed the dreadnaught, and that's big, but he didn't have to outright destroy it there. He'd done some significant damage taking out all its hull defense weapons, and that alone is a victory too, and one that was achieved without losing the bombers. Pushing to get the bombers (and them following the hotshot and going along with it when the General said no) because he believed he could do it (because the bombing fleet believed in Poe's abilities?) is hunting for glory. Just because he didn't go and say "I'm going to take down that dreadnaught and it's going to be glorious and I'm going to be awesome and everyone will know I was right" when he did it doesn't mean that his actions don't show a man who is looking to get the big glorious victory and to be proven right.
As for the speeders, as I said Poe seems to have learned judging by the fact he calls off the attempt in the end, but he also shows he has a good way to go because he came up with that stupid plan in the first place. Seriously, those things were death traps even it were a simple joyride without a bunch of enemies in front of them. Pretty much the only reason Poe's not going to be drummed out on his ass or executed for starting a mutiny is because the rebels have so few people that getting rid of him will hurt them more than keeping his dumb ass around (and even then, mostly because he's a main character and not because he's actually useful - if I were General Organa, he'd be dead before the credits rolled).
He's reduced from Commander to Captain. In the navy (though it is backwards) that'd still be a senior officer or field officer. That small of an organization wouldn't seem to have too many people at even that grade. Yup, I agree about the operational security, but rank aside he was a primary voice in planning and execution, and in a crunch situation like that would probably still have some voice...right up until ranking officer makes a decision (I always liked the Picard method). In any event, that's a minor quibble. He wasn't told because the film needed us to not be told and needed a reason for the Casino Mission. Was he even told they were working on a plan? His successes and service prior to TLJ would certainly have earned at least that much. "We're working on something...we need more time...we'll let you know when it is appropriate."
Replacing the turrets would be minimal work compared to the destruction of the vessel. The personnel aside (I know, a dangerous premise)...the loss of the bombers is inconsequential compared to the loss of the dreadnought. It is at least equivalent to losing 6 planes to destroy an aircraft carrier. Orders of magnitude in cost, destructive capability and value. For what other purpose could the bombers be better used1? I understand the idea that the small army will always have to better manage its resources...but this is an instance of massive ROI.
But how is Poe's pressing the issue doing it for glory? How is that different than saying Leia's ultra-conservative order was done only so she could be perceived as concerned about the lives of her pilots about all else? Both perspectives should be pretty dangerous in war.
Poe thought the risk was worth the return. Leia did not and ordered him back. He defied the order and was successful in his mission by any reasonable military estimation. And he was dead wrong to do it by any reasonable military estimation. But not because he is a glory hound, or wanted to make Ace, or was looking to rise in the ranks. He wanted the military outcome of the dreadnought destroyed. Leia wanted the military outcome of the fighters and bombers survival.
Re: speeders: I like how you framed them. That being said...cramming a death trap into the business end of the cannon might well destroy the cannon. And it sure looked like Finn was going to make it. A component of being a soldier/pilot/whatever is the acceptance of risk of death to further the military ends of the organization. Crashing the speeder into the mouth of the cannon (not the side, not the tracks, not the hull) would absolutely further those ends. Particularly given that the expectation was that the cannon blasting the door would effectively end the Resistance. This is the exact same decision as Vice Admiral Holdo sacrificing herself, as a soldier, to attempt to save the people in the transports. Heck, they are even trying to save *the exact same people*. And neither was doing it because they hate the First Order.
Finn dying in an attempted holding action is an acceptable risk when all indications are that the outcome is going to be annihilation. Even if the time bought was minimal it was better than the other choice that appeared available (sit inside and hope someone rescues them) if for no other reason than the Resistance would still have that plan in place and maybe have a bit longer for a rescue to show up. Again we see something that someone else replicates (Luke) at the same cost. So I don't understand how one is laudable (or at least not foolhardy/worthy of execution) and the other should leave you at best out of the service.
Last point: Poe isn't actually useful?!? He has achieved more in these films than any other member of the Resistance we've seen...granted that's faint praise, but everything that had gone badly for the First Order that we've seen to this point was the result of Poe or non-Resistance people. Leia (through no fault but that of the new writers) was unable to prevent the rise of the First Order by mobilizing or motivating the Republic. Holdo apparently did something "glorious" in the past, but nothing we're shown. The Resistance as it stands has two people that have shown past competence and value, and two/three outsiders (depending on how you count Rey, Finn and Chewie) that have been shown to matter. I will grant, though, that it now appears the Resistance has no military...so Poe is out of a job until that is reconstituted. If ever.
- M
1 - Considering the utter foolishness of the design, speed and armor...and the whole gravity necessity thing...was there a good use for these in the first place? We'll just have to agree to ignore the fact that a single hyperdrive ship is a better solution to anything we've seen to date, but that's another issue.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Mordar
Even ignoring the tracking issue...that Dreadnought was going to be a massive asset for the Order in the future. Denying the enemy something so significant was too tempting.
- M
Here's the thing though.
It isn't.
The Dreadnought is a military asset for the First Order, but it's not critical for their plans and as of that point they basically have the resources of the whole galaxy to call on because the Resistance is the only significant military opposition, they can build another.
It's like the destruction of the original Death Star. It was far more useful as a propaganda victory than an actual military event, the Empire was 3/4 done with a new one twice the size in three years.
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Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Right, he hasn't learned not to be afraid or to fight out of anger. I have granted that. You are making a leap from there to --> Luke is capable of considering murdering a sleeping kid.
What do you call turning his lightsaber off and defying the Emperor? If he was afraid all the way to the end, he would have killed Vader out of fear. He would have given in to the Emperor out of fear. He would have desperately tried to kill the Emperor out of fear, or run out of the throne room out of fear.
He didn't do that. Yes he was manipulated by two of the most powerful dark side users ever. But at the very end, Luke did overcome his fear and did lay his life on the line to redeem his father.
For me, this means Luke isn't the kind of person that would activate his lightsaber over a sleeping kid out of fear. For you, it does.
All the information includes Luke believing in people even after they have fallen very very very far into the dark side.
All the information includes that Luke can be tempted to the dark side by *MASTERS* of the dark side in times of great stress and urgency.
Seriously, the events of the original trilogy do not take us down a road where Luke Skywalker might contemplate killing his sleeping nephew.
Luke explicitly and repeatedly feels the temptation of and occasionally uses the power of the Dark Side.
The easy path, killing Ben, it's a seductive idea when you're afraid of what might happen. Luke always pulls back, but he only does it after he's taken that first half step.
Luke makes bad decisions out of fear. Repeatedly. The movies do not show him overcoming that. In order to argue that Luke Skywalker would not momentarily give in to the temptation of the dark side out of fear you need to point to something in the films where he actually does face that temptation and resists it.
But he doesn't.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Here's the thing though.
It isn't.
The Dreadnought is a military asset for the First Order, but it's not critical for their plans and as of that point they basically have the resources of the whole galaxy to call on because the Resistance is the only significant military opposition, they can build another.
It's like the destruction of the original Death Star. It was far more useful as a propaganda victory than an actual military event, the Empire was 3/4 done with a new one twice the size in three years.
Yeah but, don't you think it's worthwhile to deny the Empire a planet-destroying super weapon even if for only three years?
When your fleet can be wiped out by one ship, I think it's worthwhile to take down that one ship.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Oh man, I didn't realize people could be that... oh, wait, 've been on the internet before, I was aware of that.
Well, I for my part liked the movie. Was it perfect? Certainly not. Would I watch it again? Sure, though maybe not for full price.
Did it have problems? of course it did. But if any of you are going to tell me th OT didn't I guess I know I'm fighting a lost battle.
I mean, especially with SW I always have a hard time drawing the line between SciFi and Fantasy, and... well, some people are just stupid and make stupid choices, whatever. Some things in a story happen not because they make sense but because they are necessary to make the plot progress...
Eh, I don't feel like praising every little bit or defending things people didn't like, it would take far longer than I think it needs to be.
DTo be honest, my biggest complaint with the movie: It was too silly, at times. About half the jokes felt forced or out of place and I have no idea why they put them in, except because it's what marvel does. And I love it in many Marvel movies... except since GotG 2 and Thor 3 started to do it a bit too much for my taste.. and I feel I'm pretty liberal. I love to laugh. Jokes are good things even in serious movies but not the way LJ did it some times...
Spoiler: example
Show
R2 using the recording from NW to convince Luke is great and funny. But you don't need to lead into it with the old "nothing is going to change my mind" clichee. Also: All the... force nuns? Everything about them. And the stupid little critters.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Poe's description seemed to imply that it was just one of several Dreadnoughts in the First Order fleet "Those things are fleet killers". (I wonder just how good they are against fleets, give their slow charge rate, and the limited aiming capacity of those two guns - you have to aim the whole ship).
In a war of attrition, throwing away all your bombers to destroy one ship, is a bit of a waste.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Samurai
Yeah but, don't you think it's worthwhile to deny the Empire a planet-destroying super weapon even if for only three years?
When your fleet can be wiped out by one ship, I think it's worthwhile to take down that one ship.
Depends what it cost to do it.
If the Rebels in Star Wars had all died to destroy the Death Star, the Empire would have won without it because organised resistance to their rule would die with them. If Luke had fired a few seconds later and Yavin had been destroyed, it would have been over even with the destruction of the Death Star.
The Resistance fleet could be wiped out by literally any ship the First Order owns. They have three ships left and only one of them is a heavy combatant. The destruction of one ship that the First Order can replace at the cost of a bomber fleet the Resistance can't was absolutely not worth it.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Luke makes bad decisions out of fear. Repeatedly. The movies do not show him overcoming that. In order to argue that Luke Skywalker would not momentarily give in to the temptation of the dark side out of fear you need to point to something in the films where he actually does face that temptation and resists it.
But he doesn't.
I already went into detail about this in my previous post. You're correct that Luke does make bad decisions out of fear, but RotJ does show him making the right decision in the end after several missteps, and he does not impulsively and instantly give into fear in the way you're portraying it.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Depends what it cost to do it.
If the Rebels in Star Wars had all died to destroy the Death Star, the Empire would have won without it because organised resistance to their rule would die with them. If Luke had fired a few seconds later and Yavin had been destroyed, it would have been over even with the destruction of the Death Star.
The Resistance fleet could be wiped out by literally any ship the First Order owns. They have three ships left and only one of them is a heavy combatant. The destruction of one ship that the First Order can replace at the cost of a bomber fleet the Resistance can't was absolutely not worth it.
When the bomber "fleet" is 5 or 6 small ships? They probably lost more in terms of machinery/credits when they landed on Maz's world to rescue BB8. And even if the Resistance fleet is 3 ships...meaning they will never represent a military threat to the First Order again...taking out the Dread has the propaganda value and may help whatever force rises after the resistance.
Good point about the "these things" comment though. However, if there are even more of these that means the Republic was even worse than Chamberlain at preventing war than I thought. If they built a planet and multiple Dreadnoughts and the big command ship...
- M
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PairO'Dice Lost
I already went into detail about this
in my previous post. You're correct that Luke does make bad decisions out of fear, but RotJ
does show him making the right decision in the end after several missteps, and he does
not impulsively and instantly give into fear in the way you're portraying it.
Inst that exactly what he did in the cave at dagoba?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Depends what it cost to do it.
If the Rebels in Star Wars had all died to destroy the Death Star, the Empire would have won without it because organised resistance to their rule would die with them. If Luke had fired a few seconds later and Yavin had been destroyed, it would have been over even with the destruction of the Death Star.
The Resistance fleet could be wiped out by literally any ship the First Order owns. They have three ships left and only one of them is a heavy combatant. The destruction of one ship that the First Order can replace at the cost of a bomber fleet the Resistance can't was absolutely not worth it.
Poe's assault loses 6 bombers, 1 A-wing, and 3 X-wings. The exactly casualties are shown, on the screen Leia looks at the end of the scene. That is incredible success by any sort of pseudo-WWII aircraft assault on a capital ship calculus. It's not even especially heavy casualties - the hit to the hangars that happens latter destroys all remaining fighters loses the remaining 7 ships in the squadron (and anything else they might have had) in return for precisely nothing. And if you want to make the argument that the Resistance was so impossible short of resources that they couldn't conduct any sort of military engage at all, okay fine. but the movie ends with maybe fifteen survivors on the Millennium Falcon. So how does that work for the next movie? Additionally, if every ship is so precious, why does Holdo needlessly sacrifice the two escort vessels and let their fuel run out pointlessly while inflicting no casualties on the enemy whatsoever. Why didn't they suicide attack those ships?
Holdo's entire strategy is terrible. Let's say she does manage to get the transports down to the salt planet. They have no means to escape from there. Holdo's plan is dependent upon sending a signal for rescue. Well, they send that signal later in the film and no one answers. If the Millennium Falcon - which shouldn't even know where they are but we can give the Force that much - doesn't show up (and how does Rey end up on it anyway?) then everyone dies anyway. Also, if at any point during the evacuation to the transports the First Order changes tactics, well, they'll notice the transports and destroy them all - like, you know, what happened. Had Hux simply launched fighters to disable the Raddus when it stopped moving - which if all ships are none to be able to make suicidal ramming attacks he absolutely should have done anyway - then the TIEs notice the transports, the suicide attack fails, and everyone dies.
As for the lack of communication. The moment the ships start to run in realspace everyone on board thinks they have no chance to survive. In that moment you have to say something to inspire the troops. If Holdo had said 'there is a plan, and you don't have need-to-know' then we could talk about Poe as a mutineer or being disloyal, but Holdo doesn't present a plan at all. That's how mutinies happen people.
The bottom line is that TLJ does not care in the slightest about the particulars of producing a scenario that has any military or space combat verisimilitude. It shows that from the very first set piece when we have bombs fall in zero-g. That move is so incredibly sloppy (I can only imagine the nerdy VFX guys tasked with animating it going 'really, dropping we're dropping bombs in space now?') and so completely unnecessary - since you could have just added little engines on top of every bomb to ignite and power them to their destination - it shows that Rian Johnson doesn't care about plausibility and apparently no one was willing to tell him off or he wasn't willing to listen. Everyone that follows from that point is par for the course.
And this is not nitpicking. Counting Rogue One this is the ninth Star Wars films (plus dozens of hours of canonical cartoon shows). You don't get to completely disregard the rules for how the franchise works in mid-stream. TLJ is not a stand-alone film and cannot be reviewed as if it were one. I don't even blame Rian Johnson - I blame the Disney execs who clearly weren't paying attention and who allowed warnings from people like Pablo Hidalgo (who's entire job is to monitor continuity) to be ignored.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mechalich
It shows that from the very first set piece when we have bombs fall in zero-g. That move is so incredibly sloppy (I can only imagine the nerdy VFX guys tasked with animating it going 'really, dropping we're dropping bombs in space now?') and so completely unnecessary - since you could have just added little engines on top of every bomb to ignite and power them to their destination - it shows that Rian Johnson doesn't care about plausibility and apparently no one was willing to tell him off or he wasn't willing to listen.
TESB showed bombs being dropped in vacuum in extremely low g - an airless asteroid. The Incredible Cross Sections: TLJ book at least clarifies the bombs are being magnetically accelerated downwards - they're not just gravity bombs.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hamishspence
TESB showed bombs being dropped in vacuum in extremely low g - an airless asteroid. The Incredible Cross Sections: TLJ book at least clarifies the bombs are being magnetically accelerated downwards - they're not just gravity bombs.
To be fair, ESB also showed that there was perfectly normal gravity going sideways in that asteroid. (The worm monster was facing outwards but everyone was standing on its tongue like it was nothing).
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
With regard to Poe's lack of any respect for his superior's military wisdom, given that they just lost a war to a foe a fraction of their size and resources, I would say his lack of confidence in them is well-founded.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
To be fair, ESB also showed that there was perfectly normal gravity going sideways in that asteroid. (The worm monster was facing outwards but everyone was standing on its tongue like it was nothing).
I presumed that was the Falcon's own artificial gravity, extended, like shields can be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pendell
With regard to Poe's lack of any respect for his superior's military wisdom, given that they just lost a war to a foe a fraction of their size and resources, I would say his lack of confidence in them is well-founded.
The Resistance isn't the Republic - it's a small paramilitary group, of mostly ex-Republic officers.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mechalich
Poe's assault loses 6 bombers, 1 A-wing, and 3 X-wings. The exactly casualties are shown, on the screen Leia looks at the end of the scene. That is incredible success by any sort of pseudo-WWII aircraft assault on a capital ship calculus. It's not even especially heavy casualties - the hit to the hangars that happens latter destroys all remaining fighters loses the remaining 7 ships in the squadron (and anything else they might have had) in return for precisely nothing. And if you want to make the argument that the Resistance was so impossible short of resources that they couldn't conduct any sort of military engage at all, okay fine. but the movie ends with maybe fifteen survivors on the Millennium Falcon. So how does that work for the next movie? Additionally, if every ship is so precious, why does Holdo needlessly sacrifice the two escort vessels and let their fuel run out pointlessly while inflicting no casualties on the enemy whatsoever. Why didn't they suicide attack those ships?
Poe's assault loses the Resistance's entire heavy attack force. If you only have six bombers you don't spend them on a pointless attack on a target of no strategic value. Unless you're Poe Dameron.
Quote:
Holdo's entire strategy is terrible. Let's say she does manage to get the transports down to the salt planet. They have no means to escape from there. Holdo's plan is dependent upon sending a signal for rescue. Well, they send that signal later in the film and no one answers. If the Millennium Falcon - which shouldn't even know where they are but we can give the Force that much - doesn't show up (and how does Rey end up on it anyway?) then everyone dies anyway. Also, if at any point during the evacuation to the transports the First Order changes tactics, well, they'll notice the transports and destroy them all - like, you know, what happened. Had Hux simply launched fighters to disable the Raddus when it stopped moving - which if all ships are none to be able to make suicidal ramming attacks he absolutely should have done anyway - then the TIEs notice the transports, the suicide attack fails, and everyone dies.
If Poe hadn't blabbed the plan to Finn and Rose, and thereby included an untrusted outsider, the First Order would not have known the transports had left.
The Resistance could have holed up on the surface and waited for them to leave, thinking they'd blown up the last Resistance members aboard their last cruiser.
The plan wasn't just "leave in the transports" it was "escape whilst making the First Order think they had won".
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Poe's assault loses the Resistance's entire heavy attack force. If you only have six bombers you don't spend them on a pointless attack on a target of no strategic value. Unless you're Poe Dameron.
If Poe hadn't blabbed the plan to Finn and Rose, and thereby included an untrusted outsider, the First Order would not have known the transports had left.
The Resistance could have holed up on the surface and waited for them to leave, thinking they'd blown up the last Resistance members aboard their last cruiser.
The plan wasn't just "leave in the transports" it was "escape whilst making the First Order think they had won".
Those bombers are a joke. Y-wings are more durable then they are. Whoever designed those (in universe) should be shot for incompetence and whoever did it IRL should have a K Wing thrown at them.
And if the FO was written with more intelligence than your average toddler, they would have standard Cloak scans and would have seen them regardless, instead of needing to be told anything. The First Order is incompetence personified in this movie and its really annoying.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
We're all essentially arguing based on unknowns here.
Poe refers to the Dreadnaught as a 'fleet killer', which is a relevant consideration when your fleet is being chased. We don't know if he's right or not, but 'these things' also implies a certain familiarity with their capabilities, and may also imply that they're rare. Given that the ISDs couldn't punch through Resistance shields at range, that one ship that packs a heavier punch might actually have turned out to be critically important in the chase. But we don't know who is correct. The film is trying to present Leia as correct, but doesn't lay the groundwork.
Why do the Resistance have heavy bombers in the first place? What can they use them for? Obviously they pack more of a punch than the ordinary bombers, but if you have to completely disable the ship's guns and hope they have no fighter screens, maybe it's not such a good idea to take these things into ship to ship combat?
Why didn't they bring any to Starkiller base, the time they had to actually bomb a hard ground target?
Also, is 'scanning for life signs' suddenly not a thing anymore?
[QUOTEIf Poe hadn't blabbed the plan to Finn and Rose, and thereby included an untrusted outsider, the First Order would not have known the transports had left.
The Resistance could have holed up on the surface and waited for them to leave, thinking they'd blown up the last Resistance members aboard their last cruiser.
The plan wasn't just "leave in the transports" it was "escape whilst making the First Order think they had won".][/QUOTE]
That was the plan. Which he didn't know about.
Pretty much everyone is a screwup, but Poe's getting disproportionate blame.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Poe's assault loses the Resistance's entire heavy attack force. If you only have six bombers you don't spend them on a pointless attack on a target of no strategic value. Unless you're Poe Dameron.
If Poe hadn't blabbed the plan to Finn and Rose, and thereby included an untrusted outsider, the First Order would not have known the transports had left.
The Resistance could have holed up on the surface and waited for them to leave, thinking they'd blown up the last Resistance members aboard their last cruiser.
The plan wasn't just "leave in the transports" it was "escape whilst making the First Order think they had won".
First off - at the time we didn't know the six bombers were apparently the last six bombers the resistance had. In hindsight Poe's attack seems stupid, but then, that has to reflect on Leia as well for ordering the attack in the first place, changing her mind, and then not calling off the bombers when Poe continued his assault after he was called off.
No matter how you slice it, the bombing run scene suggests a great deal of incompetent handling.
Secondly, Poe never blabbed the plan to Finn and Rose. They didn't know about the transports. That's why its weird the codebreaker knew what was going on.
Third, the escape transports getting away under the imperial noses messes with what the Imperials can and cannot see for the umpteenth time in the movie. First the Imperials can suddenly track through hyperspace, then it turns out only the lead ship can (but another ship can take over), then the imperials can't see what Finn and Rose are doing, then they can't see transports except they can thanks to the codebreaker. Finally, it appears the imperials couldn't see Rose's ship which comes right out of nowhere and takes out Finn's ship at the last minute.
Movies mess with things like sight, and speed, and attack logic all the time, but TLJ does so blatantly, repeatedly, and in many different variations of the same logic-breaking theme.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
Movies mess with things like sight, and speed, and attack logic all the time, but TLJ does so blatantly, repeatedly, and in many different variations of the same logic-breaking theme.
Thats what makes it great in my opinion. And I can respect that sort of callous disregard to logic and consistency.
But it was destined for that sort of direction, so Im glad they did it in style as opposed to passing the (Still Empty) mystery box to the next movie to keep the illusion going for longer.
Again JJ was the Executive Producer and Creative Consultant and they all freely admit that nothing was planned ahead, and JJ admits that that was exactly his writing style.
They set up mysteries whos payoffs would only be unsatisfying at BEST. It would be completly stupid at worst.
The Same Empire Vs Rebels design is probably the weakest link in this chain, painfully resurected with the necronomicon despite all common sense.
Id say its THAT desire to have the same vehicles, dynamics, and factions which primarily sunk the trilogy. Everything has to dance around the obvious inconsistencies in service of these elements.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Speaking of JJ Abrams, I am currently watching Fringe. Mid season 2 so far, and its surprisingly proving both mysterious and yet mystery-explaining.
What happened?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hamishspence
TESB showed bombs being dropped in vacuum in extremely low g - an airless asteroid. The Incredible Cross Sections: TLJ book at least clarifies the bombs are being magnetically accelerated downwards - they're not just gravity bombs.
ESB shows the TIE Bombers spitting out little glowing balls (I believe they were latter labeled as proton bombs or some such) in a background shot. It was still dumb, but the 'glowing' bit is a fig leaf. If the bombers in TLJ had wrapped their bombs in glowing plasma or bothered to show them being accelerated in any obvious fashion (I've watched that shot several times now, it sure doesn't look like they're being accelerated, it looks like they fall). The fact that Incredible Cross Sections is forced to provide cover for the sequence is not a sign of good visual storytelling.
The entire bombing run sequence just is not good overall. The bombers themselves look stupid - they are possibly the most uncool Star Wars vehicle design I have ever scene, including everything from the PT and massive quantities of EU material. The look worse than art of freaking Yuuzhan Vong vessels. The idea that these slow moving ships with minimal defenses (and turret placements that cannot cover all approaches) have to be directly over their targets at an absurdly close range is stupid. The First Order's lack of appropriate countermeasures is stupid. The fact that if the First Order had taken appropriate countermeasures the bombing run (more like bombing crawl really) would have failed utterly is stupid. That the payload from a single bomber striking an apparently non-critical area on a dreadnaught can destroy it is stupid (a single bomb or torpedo hit could destroy a WWII battleship or carrier, but you had to get awfully lucky, more reasonably you needed several good strikes). That the Resistance only has a half-dozen bombers is stupid - seriously the First Order has more Star Destroyers than the Resistance has bombers.
At every point in TLJ emotional impact is chosen over practical thinking about how events would play out or what the implications might be. This is most obvious in terms of Holdo's suicidal ramming maneuver but it impacts countless other scenes. The worst part is that many of those scenes could easily be corrected to work better.
- For instance, in the case of the bombing run the overall attack squadron should be much larger - maybe three times the size (the ships are all digitally generated this isn't that hard). The bombs should be actively propelled - all you have to do is add little digital flares to the back ends. The dreadnaught should probably only be damaged, not destroyed, making Poe's failure of judgment clear as opposed to immediately debatable.
- During the fleet chase the subsidiary ships, rather than being pointlessly destroyed, should blow themselves up and take down screening TIE fighter squadrons after being evacuated - providing a far more plausible reason for Hux to pull all cover back and giving Holdo an opening to maneuver the Raddus. The Raddus should then subsequently ram the Supremacy in realspace, not hyperspace with Hux unable to disable the engines because he called back his fighters and Holdo can concentrate forward shields against the guns for a suicide attack (a move fully supported in movie and EU lore).
- One of the sandskimmers should fire on the cannon to no effect prior to Finn - whose guns are shown to melt - being knocked away. This would provide visual support for the contention that his suicide attack would have failed completely. Also, Poe should active pick Finn and Rosi up off the salt flats in his skimmer, because the idea that they survive walking back to the base over an open salt flat with all the walkers there is ridiculous.
- Rey's escape pod should be intercepted in space by TIE fighters and towed onboard the Supremacy.
That's off the top of my head. I'm sure I could easily come up with more given some time.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Thats what makes it great in my opinion. And I can respect that sort of callous disregard to logic and consistency.
But it was destined for that sort of direction, so Im glad they did it in style as opposed to passing the (Still Empty) mystery box to the next movie to keep the illusion going for longer.
The "awakening" in the Force mentioned by Snoke could be tied to Luke's discovery of the first Jedi temple. Snoke could have a greater connection to the Jedi, Sith and FO than he did, and an actual personality. Rey powers and other Jedi powers could have been explained and tied into changes to the Force itself or the universe as a whole.
Luke didn't have to be such a curmudgeon, he could have easily been any of a dozen other attitudes about him. He could also have left the trail of breadcrumbs for a reason, even if the reason was simply so that one day someone would find the place he uncovered.
If Snoke was going to be killed by Ben, he could have been killed in a manner of greater consequence and Ben could have a moment where he transforms into a real Sith master and cool-headed evil leader, rather than remaining the same conflicted man-child he was in the earlier scene.
There's a ton of ways to deal with the mysteries established. Several could have been satisfying.
Finally, JJ Abrams is back as the director for the third movie. So instead of messing with his old boxes, he'll be forced to do something entirely different. I wouldn't say Star Trek or several other projects he did created a bunch of mystery boxes, but I don't know if you'll say he did any better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Id say its THAT desire to have the same vehicles, dynamics, and factions which primarily sunk the trilogy. Everything has to dance around the obvious inconsistencies in service of these elements.
A new movie can always introduce new dynamics, technology, or a new faction (or even several new factions). TLJ treaded very conservatively in this arena.
However, in changing Star Wars by radically changing the technology, the groups in charge, and the movie formula might result in people no longer recognizing what they see as Star Wars. There is certainly a balance to be kept between catering to nostalgia, bridging to the future, and simply trying to keep things true to Star Wars (and we know they mean the OT, not the prequel stuff).
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
There's a ton of ways to deal with the mysteries established. Several could have been satisfying.
Yeah I can actually agree to this but its still weak setup. You can explain the mysteries but your still left in a galaxy of idiots.
Quote:
Finally, JJ Abrams is back as the director for the third movie.
I expect mediocrity. The man just doesn't have much of an original bone in his body. Hes a master of polish (To a literal point with the lens flares), but hes really terrified of going outside the box.
If its anybody whos going to make something out of this smoldering pile it would be some amazing once a century screenwriter.
But again your left in this galaxy of morons.
Quote:
Luke didn't have to be such a curmudgeon, he could have easily been any of a dozen other attitudes about him. He could also have left the trail of breadcrumbs for a reason, even if the reason was simply so that one day someone would find the place he uncovered.
If Snoke was going to be killed by Ben, he could have been killed in a manner of greater consequence and Ben could have a moment where he transforms into a real Sith master and cool-headed evil leader, rather than remaining the same conflicted man-child he was in the earlier scene.
Oh for sure. I already know a bunch of ways. But your still left in a galaxy where the Jedi are all dead again, and the Republic is a bunch of morons and your still left with an overpowered protagonist.
Retroactively explaining why Rey is so powerful won't help ratchet up the tension back unless its like 1 hour of flashbacks.
Shes done. Shes already kind, brave, strong, and smart. Nothing much left then for her to make some honest spur of the moment mistakes unless you have to squeeze out of character moments for her.
Quote:
However, in changing Star Wars by radically changing the technology, the groups in charge, and the movie formula might result in people no longer recognizing what they see as Star Wars. There is certainly a balance to be kept between catering to nostalgia, bridging to the future, and simply trying to keep things true to Star Wars (and we know they mean the OT, not the prequel stuff).
Id say yeah, don't have it set 3000 years in the future when the Pan Armafrodian Alliance is up against the Gigajum Armada led by the Plucky Gobsmack Orlando, Grand Leader of the New Jet-Eye Disco Dancing Academy aboard his flying Cielingless solar sailer "The Matilda".....
Actually On second thought I may have to copyright that.
Irregardless of that Aside you can actually advance the setting and ACTUALLY cut the chaff from the EU:
How would the New Republic Deal with some new threat?
Maybe the Empire finds a bunch of unformentioned evil stuff on the outside of the galaxy and return with somekind of Evil Aztek+Empire Inspired ships with mutants and older horrors of the sith.
And how the new better Jedi order has to deal with the consequences of having to forge a new path with some ships that are inspired by but not directly just re-skinned X wings or the like.
And those are all not fantastic ideas, but I give so much respect to the Prequels for at least trying. I feel like your never gonna make a new iconic design that people are gonna point at and say "That really cemented itself!" without trying something new.
Otherwise Star Wars would never have had advanced from Flash Gordon for instance.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I watched this the other day with some people, and overall liked it quite a bit. It's certainly better than TFA, maybe about on par with Return of the Jedi. So nowhere near peak Star Wars (Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Sith) but good.
Things I liked:
Spoiler
Show
I actually liked the idea of the slow pursuit and seemingly inexorable destruction of the Resistance. Maybe the set-up to get there was a bit goofy, but it's Star Wars, not a goddamn documentary about space warfare or something. As made up nonsense reasons go, it's substantially better than your average comic book movie's made up nonsense, and goes much more interesting places with it. I also liked watching them actually have substantial disagreements and start to come apart at the seams. This made them much more interesting and believable to me than the usual role of commanders in Star Wars, which is to say some stuff about what doohickey the heroes need to blow up this time.
I rather enjoyed grumpy old Luke, and got a real kick out of Yoda. Which isn't to say I'm in love with the whole Luke in exile thing, but he was a lot of fun, in a refreshingly non smarmy way.
I thought it did a really impressive job of connecting everything together, which is not easy given how many plot threads it had going.
I really liked the scene of Kylo almost shooting at Leia, and deciding not to. That frankly sold me on Kylo as conflicted way more than everybody saying "Kylo is so conflicted" all the time.
On the one hand, seeing the Resistance totally lose was an interesting shift. On the other, for some reason the movie decided that them getting utterly curbstomped was somehow hopeful, which isn't exactly how that works.
This had spaceships suicidally ramming each other. I am a definite sucker for this. Not Babylon 5 levels of oh hell yes, but it'll definitely do.
Things I did not:
Spoiler
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It was too bloody long, by at least 15 minutes.
The Disney Star Wars need to stop hauling out big evil spaceships out of their ass and then promptly blowing them up and thinking I will be impressed. You gotta build these these things up. The Death Star was a big deal because A New Hope was structured entirely around it. Here's it just some sort of default move, like whenever they need stakes it's to the Big Ship-o-Matic. I don't care about the dreadnaught, it's just a thing that's there without buildup, and it does exactly squat. I don't care about Snoke's ship either, it's just a big ugly thing that doesn't do anything.
The salt flats fight felt utterly pointless and bloated.
The throne room fight needed to either not happen, or actually matter. As it was, it was just a random exercise in chaotic mook-killing, and this movie absolutely did not need another action scene.
On that note, I don't like the fight choreography of the new movies. The blows are so telegraphed they look like a bunch of first time LARPers with terribly balanced boffers. It's boring to watch, and makes me think the fighters are lame. Also, this business with lightsabers giving people tetchy little wounds is annoying and uninteresting. We've had six previous movies to make this clear, getting hit with a lightsaber is gonna cost you, probably a limb. Now so long as you're a main character, it's just one of those Drama Wounds that instantly stops mattering. Getting actually injured is for losers.
I also miss the much more realist style of showing space battles from A New Hope. To be sure a bunch of the other Lucas era Star Wars drifted away from this quite a bit, and I rather wish they hadn't, because it made the attack on the Death Star freaking intense. This was just an uncoordinated mess of things happening. Bleh.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Saw it, liked it. Some interesting little bits here and there that aren't major plot points but nice touches.
Spoiler
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Luke didn't leave any tracks in the salt, and kept to the kendo stance from the original movies rather than the more fluid action poses from later ones.
The kid at the end doesn't grab his broom from the stoop, it tips into his hand from an (unconscious I assume) force-use.
That shot for Luke's ending of him staring at the twin sunset while his theme played was a beautiful mirror to that classic shot in A New Hope.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Gonna second that opinion on the dreadnought being worth it. If the resistance only has those few ships and the one First Order group outnumbers them that badly, they stand no actual chance of mounting any attack against a First Order force given that they don't seem to have any kind of smaller corvettes or fast attack craft that would be vulnerable. Saving them for later just means they would all die later on in a similar fashion, unless Leia somehow expects every single fight to have a tactical advantage and to do it all within the couple of weeks the first order would gain control by.
The resistance just does not have the ships for this kind of war and nobody would have come to back them. This was the best kind of engagement they could have hoped for.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
Gonna second that opinion on the dreadnought being worth it. If the resistance only has those few ships and the one First Order group outnumbers them that badly, they stand no actual chance of mounting any attack against a First Order force given that they don't seem to have any kind of smaller corvettes or fast attack craft that would be vulnerable. Saving them for later just means they would all die later on in a similar fashion, unless Leia somehow expects every single fight to have a tactical advantage and to do it all within the couple of weeks the first order would gain control by.
The resistance just does not have the ships for this kind of war and nobody would have come to back them. This was the best kind of engagement they could have hoped for.
Disagree entirely. If the rebellion is really down to just who we see on screen, they are in no position to make any sort of sacrifice play. They need everybody they can muster to survive, spread the message, train others, and, when they are not literally minutes away from total annihilation, then they may attack with guerrilla-style surprise attack are minimally risky.
A "fleet-destroyer" is something you worry about when you have an actual fleet. The rebellion we see is literally a handful of ships that dwindle to zero.
Poe not getting it makes him an idiot. Leia backing the plan in the first place (she indicates she changed her mind) makes her an idiot. The audience can be excused if they didn't realize just how dire the straights are, We don't get an indication of just how desperate the situation is until after the attack.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
It's difficult to make any judgements when the context of the war is so stupidly nebulous:
For instance why the truck would the First Order be on some rinky dink weapons run on some planet now?
It's like the Chinese Military buying handguns from American Mafioso.
They would be such a military power one could assume they could just have a production facility. Like who could even "Refuse" to sell them guns?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
Disagree entirely. If the rebellion is really down to just who we see on screen, they are in no position to make any sort of sacrifice play. They need everybody they can muster to survive, spread the message, train others, and, when they are not literally minutes away from total annihilation, then they may attack with guerrilla-style surprise attack are minimally risky.
A "fleet-destroyer" is something you worry about when you have an actual fleet. The rebellion we see is literally a handful of ships that dwindle to zero.
Poe not getting it makes him an idiot. Leia backing the plan in the first place (she indicates she changed her mind) makes her an idiot. The audience can be excused if they didn't realize just how dire the straights are, We don't get an indication of just how desperate the situation is until after the attack.
The thing is, this may be true. There's really no way to make the strategic calculation. The real problem is that the movie doesn't hold true to this, because it allows the First Order to blow up the Raddus' main hangar only moments later. Guess where those ten ships Poe's attack cost would have been if they hadn't been destroyed? Yeah, so from what we see in the movie, Poe managed to kill a dreadnaught with ships that would have been destroyed anyway. So the decision is rendered irrelevant either way.
In order for Poe's 'mistake' to matter, there needs to be a circumstance later in the movie where some plan or option is rejected because 'we don't have any bombers.' But this never happens (the bombers being so ridiculously specialized that they're only useful for an assault on a massive capital ship doesn't help, there are circumstances later on where a half-dozen Y-wings would have made a difference).
TLJ takes Chekov's Gun, empties the clip into the wall, and then never bothers to miss those bullets. Like many things in TLJ its subversion for the purpose of subversion, not subversion for the purpose of storytelling.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
Speaking of JJ Abrams, I am currently watching Fringe. Mid season 2 so far, and its surprisingly proving both mysterious and yet mystery-explaining.
What happened?
Fringe is awesome and I suspect the fact that I watched it and not lost is the reason I give Abrams more credit than most of this forum.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Regardless I expect JJ to patchwork fix all the plot holes in episode 9. The thematic problems and the confusing nature and the pointlessness of it all will remain.
But on a raw level, most of the binary plot holes will be filled out.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
We can not use spoiler, right? I'll add them if necessary.
My thought on this were - complicated.
Stuff I liked:
- Kylo Ren - I liked his character development. Kinda sad, his version of new thing, is just be the old bad thing.
- #NotSnowPlanetButSaltPlant- a neat visual + Shows Luke isn't real
- Luke - I generally believed Luke became a hermit. It doesn't make much sense based on his old idealistic character, but otoh, there is precedent in Joda and other Jedis.
- Snoke's origin and death - it's an elegant way to solve the issue of Snoke and Sidious existing close to each other - other than making Snoke Plagueis or something.
- Rey's origin and death - it's an elegant way to solve the issue of Ray. Talk about joke falling flat
- Kylo & Rey - fighting the red dudes.
Stuff I disliked:
- Humor - more times than not, it felt mandated, and more times than not it - it falls flat.
- Leia scene - WTF was that. Seriously. We never see Force giving you magical vacuum survival kit powers. And that felt cringey.
- Finn and Rose - I hated these characters in this episode. Mostly because, well they have no chemistry. And I liked Finn in previous episode. So, good
- Incompetence - as others noted, everyone is incompetent.
Purple Hair Lady knows Poe is a hothead that wants to save Resistance and instead of telling him the plan and managing him correctly, she keeps him in the dark. Good going.
Poe's sacrifice kinda had a point. It's not like they were going to use these bombers any better and we see Purple Hair Lady, essentially dragging them around, waiting for them to lose fuel and be destroyed. And that Dreadnought looked like it could turn their shields into mush in way less than 18-24 hours.
Hux is stupid. But I guess that's the point. That introduction scene was stupid.
Poe's plan kinda makes sense. But because Finn/Rose manage to find the shadiest Hacker since Shady Adder McBetrayer the Backstabber, they fail at the plan -AND- ruin Resistance plan B. At one point, they just say no to him. I thought they were gonna stick by it.
Kylo Ren is stupid. Yes, lets personally confront my nemesis, so he can buy time for the rest of the Order to evacuate.
Leia plan is stupid. It depends on Snoke and Kylo, not detecting anything wrong... By the time they destroy the ship they probably won't pass that many habitable planets. It's not like villains have people with magical powers, right?
Probably missed everyone else.
- Wat - This movie shattered my immersion SO HARD. We're being chased by the First Order. Oh, well, time to go to Space Vegas/Monaco and have a story that literally has no purpose. Wat. Imagine a high stakes and pressure evacuation that you undercut, by going to Las Vegas for a day or two. It felt dissonant.
Also First Order has to blindly follow and shoot at their rear? Wat. Can't they just hyperspace ahead of them. Are they this stupid? Why did no one suggest that. Look, I can imagine they are mandated to land several kilometers for drastic visuals, but do they need to spend a day or more essentially dragging their feet.
Also First Order can't see the transport pods, unless someone tells them. Wat.
I am not sure who is more incompetent - FO or the Resistance.
- Where the **** do you go from here - So entire Resistance can fit in a van. Good going Leia. Oh, and you are driving with a person that Kylo Ren can detect from across the Galaxy. I am sure that will make things hard.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
You know, i feel like a lot of the criticism is superficial. I mean, I get why superficial things can prevent your enjoyment of a movie. But spending 3 pages arguing over spaceship combat minutia isnt my idea of make vs break Star Wars..
What failed in term of the themes? Pacing is a bit clunky, i totally get that. But again, i felt that after ALL the whining about Casino planet, Rose/Finn scenes there were.. surprisingly short. Yes its a distraction, but its a 3-scene distraction.
1- they land/get arrested
2- they escpae their cells
3- they escape the planet
There. Was that *really* dragged on? We never come back to the same location twice. It felt shorter than the ****ing podrace of Episode 1.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
You know, i feel like a lot of the criticism is superficial.
What failed in term of the themes? Pacing is a bit clunky, i totally get that. But again, i felt that after ALL the whining about Casino planet, Rose/Finn scenes there were.. surprisingly short. Yes its a distraction, but its a 3-scene distraction.
It's not the length that's problematic, it's the setup and tone. We are being chased by First order, fighting desperately for survival. Let's go to a casino planet.. We can probably return later.
It's like you are in middle of a high stakes hostage scene. And one guy hostage walks out, goes to a coffee shop, has a drink, finds some dude and returns. First there is a large tone gap, second the logic of the scene just sorta crumbles.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
-D-
It's not the length that's problematic, it's the setup and tone. We are being chased by First order, fighting desperately for survival. Let's go to a casino planet.. We can probably return later.
It's like you are in middle of a high stakes hostage scene. And one guy walks out, goes to a coffee shop, has a drink, finds some dude and returns. First there is a large tone gap, second the logic of the scene just sorta crumbles.
I.. somewhat get that. But its a cruiser, slow-burn chase. Not a starfighter/car chase.
I mean.. its like a long burn chase in a Submarine v Destroyer movie, where one will have to spend hours catching up to the other, but it *will* catch up eventually. The point of that sort of chase is not meant to provide immediate tension and action, but instead a slow ticking clock of inevitable doom.
Its like.. a countdown before the Death Star was to be in range of the rebel base.
And in that sort of situation, "go off in a subplot to try to provide a solution" is an acceptable plot device, no?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
I.. somewhat get that. But its a cruiser, slow-burn chase. Not a starfighter/car chase.
I mean.. its like a long burn chase in a Submarine v Destroyer movie, where one will have to spend hours catching up to the other, but it *will* catch up eventually. The point of that sort of chase is not meant to provide immediate tension and action, but instead a slow ticking clock of inevitable doom.
Its like.. a countdown before the Death Star was to be in range of the rebel base.
And in that sort of situation, "go off in a subplot to try to provide a solution" is an acceptable plot device, no?
Not when you could literally call for backup, as proved by calling that lady from the first movie. All of this could have been avoided by having the Rebels hi in a highly ionized nebula that was slowly draining their shields and would destroy their systems if they failed.
Boom, ticking clock is still there and now we can have people leave without it being weird.
And if you notice, most people arent even complaining about the themes or what the movie was trying to do, we just hate how they went about doing it.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
You know, i feel like a lot of the criticism is superficial. I mean, I get why superficial things can prevent your enjoyment of a movie. But spending 3 pages arguing over spaceship combat minutia isnt my idea of make vs break Star Wars..
The criticisms of this movie is hardly limited to some technical bumblings and minor logical incontinuity. This is a film that constantly, blatantly, and in many variations disturbs everything one would expect.
The casino scene is like one of the hostages walking out during a hostage scene to grab a guy at a coffee shop, and making a goofy side adventure of it as he evades (or fails to evade) an overly aggressive parking cop.
The timing is also ridiculous, apparently hyperspace travel is instantaneous and the hijinx occur with mere hours to go before the fuel runs out.
That’s like the above coffee/parking cop scene occurs under a short deadline when the hostage takers will shoot all the hostages.
However, there is so much more. I have written just a page or ago about the problem of the bombing run. The problem is that the rebellion was down to a single group of ships and we get no feel for that, why Poe and the starfighters following him were so gun how to go on the offensive when the rebellion was a few shots away from total annihilation, or why Leia apparently greenlit the operation in the first place.
These incongruities continue throughout the film in nearly every possible way right up until the end.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
Poe's stated motivation for going after the Dreadnaught is because it's "a fleet killer", which is relevant when your fleet is in the process of fleeing. Maybe he's right, maybe he isn't, but it's not a simple matter of gloryhunting.
It's also not clear if this was Leia's plan in the first place or not, I don't think Poe could have scrambled all those bombers without anyone noticing if it wasn't part of the plan.
Leia's logic was basically "transports are clear, we don't need to deal with this ship in a fight, lets jump out".
This logic was fatally flawed, as shown by, yknow, the rest of the movie. She didn't know at the time, but yes, a fleet killer jumping in on top of them would have overtly ended the resistance right there. Having a handful of bombers would not have significantly altered the remainder of the movie. Poe literally saved everyone.
The later mission was pretty high risk. I'm not really sure how he betrayed them. Or how the hacker even learned of the rebel's true plans, given that Poe himself didn't know. Finn didn't know either. Literally everyone embarked on that mission BECAUSE they didn't know of the backup plan. How'd the hacker learn of it, while only in contact with them? The movie doesn't really tell us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
Here's the thing though.
It isn't.
The Dreadnought is a military asset for the First Order, but it's not critical for their plans and as of that point they basically have the resources of the whole galaxy to call on because the Resistance is the only significant military opposition, they can build another.
It's like the destruction of the original Death Star. It was far more useful as a propaganda victory than an actual military event, the Empire was 3/4 done with a new one twice the size in three years.
I dunno, three years of destroying any planets that have a rebel base, or significantly support the rebels seems like a problem to me. Hoth would have probably been screwed, for starters. Oh, and the Yavin 4 base, obviously. The rebellion doesn't have the option of just ignoring the death star. If they do that, they lose. They needed to kill it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hamishspence
Poe's description seemed to imply that it was just one of several Dreadnoughts in the First Order fleet "Those things are fleet killers". (I wonder just how good they are against fleets, give their slow charge rate, and the limited aiming capacity of those two guns - you have to aim the whole ship).
In a war of attrition, throwing away all your bombers to destroy one ship, is a bit of a waste.
I mean, they literally throw away the rest of the fleet anyways. So, the bombers wouldn't have done crap if saved. Better one ship than none, right?
From a military perspective, the chase scene is kind of stupid and boring. The faster fighter craft are not used by Hux because...they can't be covered? What? I mean, the rebels are still within long range cannon fire. And there's not really THAT many x-wings to worry about. Launching an attack is logical.
Likewise, if fleeing, the rebel ships could have, I dunno, all jumped different places? They don't HAVE to jump as a unit. And they were equally screwed in a head to head fight together or seperately. By the same token, the imperials could have jumped a few star destroyers in front of them. Literally no reason not to.
The whole side plot is basically loosely justified by imperial incompetence in scanning. Like...I can take some idiocy, but when everyone's just throwing the idiot ball at each other, it's really hard to empathize with any of it. If it were just Hux that was stupid, okay, sure, that somewhat lowers the fear factor of the imperials, but it would help justify plucky rebels overcoming the odds.
****, if the whole goal was 'screw the fleet, we need to save the crew', why keep people away from the escape pods? Clearly Finn and company were able to bampf over to casinoworld just fine.
Why don't they just go live on casinoworld(or literally anywhere else)?
Or why not bring back more spacegas, if the goal is something else?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
I.. somewhat get that. But its a cruiser, slow-burn chase. Not a starfighter/car chase.
I mean.. its like a long burn chase in a Submarine v Destroyer movie, where one will have to spend hours catching up to the other, but it *will* catch up eventually. The point of that sort of chase is not meant to provide immediate tension and action, but instead a slow ticking clock of inevitable doom.
Its like.. a countdown before the Death Star was to be in range of the rebel base.
And in that sort of situation, "go off in a subplot to try to provide a solution" is an acceptable plot device, no?
Yeah, but for us to feel something about people trapped in a slow ticking inevitable doom submarine hunt, the people need to be TRAPPED in a submarine. If they aren't trapped there is no tension, so the the slow ticking inevitable doom, is just some dude's wall clock.
Now, a Death Star parallel is more apt, but to my knowledge Death Star != Star Destroyer. What fits for a Death Star doesn't fit for a regular ship.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tyndmyr
From a military perspective, the chase scene is kind of stupid and boring. The faster fighter craft are not used by Hux because...they can't be covered? What? I mean, the rebels are still within long range cannon fire. And there's not really THAT many x-wings to worry about. Launching an attack is logical.
If you played out that scenerio in FFG's Star Wars Armada, given infinite turns and infinite table size, it would work out the same way. Within a certian range of command ships, fighters move and shoot. Outside it, they move OR shoot. So fighters cant hit a moving target outside that range.
And of course Armada doesnt have microjump rules, either.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
You know, i feel like a lot of the criticism is superficial. I mean, I get why superficial things can prevent your enjoyment of a movie. But spending 3 pages arguing over spaceship combat minutia isnt my idea of make vs break Star Wars..
What failed in term of the themes? Pacing is a bit clunky, i totally get that. But again, i felt that after ALL the whining about Casino planet, Rose/Finn scenes there were.. surprisingly short. Yes its a distraction, but its a 3-scene distraction.
1- they land/get arrested
2- they escpae their cells
3- they escape the planet
There. Was that *really* dragged on? We never come back to the same location twice. It felt shorter than the ****ing podrace of Episode 1.
I think for me it's more that the movie doesn't seem to go anywhere with any of its themes or messages. It sort of wiffle-waffles the entire time. And then of course the stuff that's sort of incongruous with itself and the previous movie/s. And then the stuff that people consider "fan hangups". Even if I grant you the fan hangups, this movie still doesn't do well.
Kylo was conflicted in TFA. And we see that he takes measures to overcome that conflict in murdering his father. Okay, moving forward. Now in this movie we see that he is actually still conflicted and can't bring himself to kill his mother. Okay, we're taking steps backward now. But then he finds his resolve again and murders his master. Okay, moving forward. He tells Rey to forget everything about the past. Okay, moving forward. He sees Luke and loses his ****. He sees the Millennium Falcon and loses his ****. He allows the Resistance to escape because he is still attached to his past and can't get over it. Okay, so we're still either taking steps backward and/or not making any progress. Consider as well that there were a lot of questions surrounding his defeat in TFA. One of the explanations around this was a line from Snoke at the end of that movie "Kylo must complete his training". People said "See? Kylo needs more training!" (nevermind Rey's complete lack of training). Now in The Last Jedi, we don't see Kylo training. In fact, Snoke subdues Rey with the Force and says this to Kylo "Now, complete your training. Kill her." This kind of inconsistency takes people out of the movie. Kylo loses to Rey in TFA and it left enough people scratching their heads. We're told he needs to complete his training, the implication being that when he does he can defeat her. But then we see that to complete his training, he has to kill her after she's been subdued by his master. This makes no sense, and a movie needs to make sense to some degree.
Finn was... not a hero, to be generous to him, in TFA. He deserts the First Order, and is out for himself, uninterested in risking his life fighting for the Resistance. By the end of the movie, he becomes a fighter for the Resistance and mounts a rescue of Rey and actually faces off against Kylo Ren in lightsaber combat. Okay, moving forward with his character. In The Last Jedi however, we learn that that's not enough. Finn only cares about his friends, not about the entire galaxy. So instead of sneaking off to make sure Rey doesn't return to a deathtrap, he mounts a mission with Rose and she shows him how everyone is suffering throughout the galaxy and this is all bigger than just his friends. Okay, so we're kind of moving forward I guess. We're learning that Finn wasn't selfless enough, he has to be more of a hero. Now we get to the scene on the salt planet where the Resistance has no allies answering their calls for help, they are trapped in a mountain base with only one way out, and that way is about to be blasted down by a cannon. Everyone pulls back but Finn stays on course, willing to ram the cannon head on to prevent the First Order from storming the base and wiping out the Resistance. Okay, looks like Finn has learned his lesson. He's finally a real hero, sacrificing himself to save the Resistance so they can be the embers to light the fire blah blah blah. Except, hang on, Rose actually prevents him from doing that. Finn isn't saving just Rey and himself. He's attempting to save the entire Resistance, or at least what's left of them. And Rose stops him from doing that because she loves him, reducing the entire conflict to simply be about her and the person she cares about. This is in direct opposition to the lesson she was teaching Finn in the first place. Further, Finn was doing exactly what Holdo had done just moments before, and the movie wants you to think one was good, and the other not good. Even further, Rose is willing to sacrifice herself, since she nearly died, to prevent Finn from sacrificing himself because... whatever.
The movie waffles back and forth with Poe as well. He's staring down a Dreadnought to evacuate the planet. Cool. Poe is at the lead of a daring mission to rescue people. Makes sense and what we expect. Then he gets dressed down by Leia, and it seems like a weak argument to me, but I can see it being up for debate. Fine. Leia slaps him and gets her point across. Then immediately this gets undercut by the First Order tracking them and Leia giving Poe the order to do exactly what she reprimanded him for doing. Okay, I guess this isn't really a major plot point. Oh but it is, because when Holdo takes command, she again reprimands Poe for being a hothead. So apparently this is a lesson Poe has to learn. Or is it? Because we actually see that Holdo is failing at saving the Resistance, so Poe has to stage a mutiny. Okay, so we were just setting up for a conflict between Poe and Holdo to make the movie more interesting. Actually no, because Poe's plan actually fails, and it is revealed that Holdo actually was saving the entire Resistance. Ok, Poe is told this by Leia and he realizes they are saved and he presumably learns his lesson. Except hang on, it's not enough that he was blasted by Leia and humiliated and "wrong", now we find out that inexplicably the codebreaker knows about the transports and now Poe's plan is actually causing everyone to die, so they aren't saved. The solution? A heroic sacrifice ramming one ship into another. So movie watchers have to be very specific now about which sacrifices are worthwhile while they are watching. Poe and the bombers making a sacrifice to destroy the dreadnought? Not good. Holdo sacrificing herself to destroy the First Order ships? Good. Finn sacrificing himself to save the Resistance? Not good. Rose sacrificing herself to save Finn? Good. Luke sacrificing himself to save the Resistance? Good.
Nevermind that at any time any of their ships (the ones that get destroyed anyways) could have kamikazed the First Order ship. Nevermind that people can leave the Resistance ship undetected (as Finn and Rose do).
I'm sure I'm forgetting more but I don't think these are superficial problems. This movie just left me wondering what I was supposed to be taking away from it, and not in a good, deep sort of way. It was like it was changing it's mind all the time.
It's not congruous with The Force Awakens, which it *has to* be if it's a sequel. You cannot fault people for having expectations. And again, I'm not talking about Rey's parents, or Snoke. I mean how we see the tiny First Order have their massive base and weapon destroyed at the end of the movie, but they start this movie conquering the galaxy. There isn't a flow here. Luke leaves a map for when he's needed, and everyone is looking for him because he's pivotal, and then he winds up not being pivotal at all and not even wanting to be found. Things don't follow from one another, so we're just left with the movie telling us stuff, and the stuff they tell us doesn't really make sense and isn't done well. And since you don't even have continuity to fall back on, it ends up being a bad movie.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
-D-
[*]Leia scene - WTF was that. Seriously. We never see Force giving you magical vacuum survival kit powers. And that felt cringey.
Leia is amazing at the light side of the force.
Not as useful as dark, but useful the same.
You get a elemental protection in Jedi Academy game which is what they were going for here I think. Then using the force she pushes herself to fly.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I haven't seen the scene , but in the Thrawn Duology -- sorry , Sapphire Guard --
Spoiler: Thrawn Duology
Show
Luke makes a "cold shirt" crossing -- that is , he puts himself in a hibernation trance and allows himself to be pushed in that state across a vacuum to a waiting spaceship
Are the situations parallel?
I've been reading, and vacuum is survivable for very brief periods . I can well imagine Leia using Force Push to "fly" in a zero-g environment for a very brief period. And again, some other force ability to allow her to hold it together rather than having her lungs rupture. Maybe deliberately let out the air and use the force alone for a very brief period?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Rakaydos
If you played out that scenerio in FFG's Star Wars Armada, given infinite turns and infinite table size, it would work out the same way. Within a certian range of command ships, fighters move and shoot. Outside it, they move OR shoot. So fighters cant hit a moving target outside that range.
And of course Armada doesnt have microjump rules, either.
Even in case of a minimum jump size, given roughly instant jumps, which appears to be a given, a two jump solution would suffice.
I'm not sure Armada is intended as canon for the purpose of decyphering movies, but as I understand it, smaller ships are more mobile, so even just moving or shooting ought to eventually tag a capital ship. Given enough fighters. That said, I'm pretty sure that the limiting factor on TIEs is the lack of a hyperdrive, not capital ships per se.
I don't believe any such limitation exists in X-wing, if we're relying on games to justify this plot.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Space isnt cold anyway.. people in movies keep making that mistake.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Re: Leia
I don't think they should limit themselves to pre-established Force powers. The Force is basically magic in the EU. I think they should be free to use it in new ways.
The issue with the Leia scene is similar to other stuff in the movie; it's back and forth. So she dies. This is expected because Carrie Fisher has passed away. But then she's alive. But then she's unconscious in a coma. And then she's back. (Also, that scene looks awful.)
Similar to Luke. He fights Kylo and it looks like he's going to pull a Ben Kenobi. And boom! Kylo slices right through him, he's now one with the Force. Wait, no. He's alive. He was on his planet all along. Whups, hold on, he's dead, he's now one with the Force.
The movie does this non stop and there's no reason for it and no real payoff.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
pendell
Oh, screw that guy and his annoying voice. :smallannoyed:
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I have no doubt there are enough inconsistencies and questionable decision-making here to give CinemaSins a field day with this movie later. But overall, I still had a lot of fun with it and the core themes were solid.
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Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
Disagree entirely. If the rebellion is really down to just who we see on screen, they are in no position to make any sort of sacrifice play. They need everybody they can muster to survive, spread the message, train others, and, when they are not literally minutes away from total annihilation, then they may attack with guerrilla-style surprise attack are minimally risky.
It's not down to those we see on screen though. The whole point of the "escape pod plan" was to get a message to their forces in the outer rim. That those forces are currently demoralized was not known to Leia's core group at the time. However, Snoke being dead is also a new variable that could give the resistance the shot in the arm it desperately needs.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Tyndmyr
I don't believe any such limitation exists in X-wing, if we're relying on games to justify this plot.
You clearly havnt played a game of Epic supported by Toryn Farr or Grand Moff Tarken.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Renegade Paladin
Oh, screw that guy and his annoying voice. :smallannoyed:
It ain't a Plinkett review, it's just a regular RLM movie discussion :P
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
Space isnt cold anyway.. people in movies keep making that mistake.
To be precise, space is indeed cold. But it's also empty. To lose heat, you need to touch something colder than you, heating it up while you cool down; the problem with that in space is that it is very very empty, so you are only touching a handful of atoms at a time.
As a consequence,you tend to lose heat very slowly compared to, say, being submerged in icy water, even if the single particles you come in contact with in space are way colder than any icy water you might imagine.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
So literally a day after posting this smarmy article about how The Last Jedi is invincible, Forbes has posted this article about how it's a guaranteed financial disappointment. And notwithstanding all of that there are five wide release movies just coming on today.
It's... almost amusing to watch Star Wars turn into this big juggernaut that refuses to listen to common sense in it's moment of triumph, only to get put down by an alliance of smaller properties and a bunch of regular dudes with computers.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Jan Mattys
To be precise, space is indeed cold. But it's also empty. To lose heat, you need to touch something colder than you, heating it up while you cool down; the problem with that in space is that it is very very empty, so you are only touching a handful of atoms at a time.
As a consequence,you tend to lose heat very slowly compared to, say, being submerged in icy water, even if the single particles you come in contact with in space are way colder than any icy water you might imagine.
From what I read here, the sun keeps heating you and other objects in space. TvTropes has a detailed discussion on the subject.
Space can get as cold as the Big Bang radiation allows, but only if there's no star nearby or blocked.
Not that Leia being cold is a problem with the movie. I give a great deal of leeway with movie physics. Leia using the force to fly from near-death and open an airlock out of nowhere is of a subversion of audience expectations.
I am not sure that individually it is a problem the Leia has great force powers, or Snoke dies, or Luke is a curmudgeon, or Finn's sacrifice gets blocked (moments after someone else's sacrifice was awesome), or Poe has to learn to blindly follow orders and stop being a hero, or whatever else they trolled with. Putting it all together the movie is clearly there to tear things down and not build things.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
So literally a day after posting this smarmy article about how
The Last Jedi is invincible, Forbes has posted this article about how it's a
guaranteed financial disappointment. And notwithstanding all of that there are
five wide release movies just coming on today.
It's... almost amusing to watch Star Wars turn into this big juggernaut that refuses to listen to common sense in it's moment of triumph, only to get put down by an alliance of smaller properties and a bunch of regular dudes with computers.
Oh it goes farther then that: It had become this Juggernaught and empire after its previous owner dissapointed all within and split the fandom.
Now this movie was meant as not just its first step but one to lock in place its significance. Alongside stood a very important but visibly aged leftover from the previous regime disagreeing with the people in charge but powerless to do anything about it.
Its like Pottery. It has rhims.