LGBTAIitp Part 60: Still Going Strong

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Originally Posted by Dire Moose

I suppose it’s just how perfect some of the changes are; like it’s impossible to tell with a lot of people that they ever been different. I feel like if I z went back and talked to some of my old acquaintances, they would find it nearly impossible to recognize me now.

EDIT: Actually, more to the point, gender is one of those things that everyone has mostly assumed to be a permanent part of all of us, and knowing that it can actually be changed has a certain wow factor to it as a result.

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Originally Posted by Dire Moose

So on November 17, 2017, I took my very first dose of estrogen. One of the best decisions of my life, and five years, a pair of D-cup boobs, and my butt no longer fitting my old boy pants later and I absolutely don’t regret it.

And yet, it doesn’t feel like it’s been that long. Even though I’m usually one of the longest-transitioned in the queer friend groups I’ve been with and looked up to as an inspiration somehow, I still feel like I’ve barely even started and hardly even know what I’m doing.

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Congratulations on how far you've come! And that feeling that you're just getting started? Something tells me you will just keep growing so much more as a person.

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Originally Posted by Dire Moose

So on November 17, 2017, I took my very first dose of estrogen. One of the best decisions of my life, and five years, a pair of D-cup boobs, and my butt no longer fitting my old boy pants later and I absolutely don’t regret it.

And yet, it doesn’t feel like it’s been that long. Even though I’m usually one of the longest-transitioned in the queer friend groups I’ve been with and looked up to as an inspiration somehow, I still feel like I’ve barely even started and hardly even know what I’m doing.

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Lucky! I can't seem to grow beyond a B cup after like 3 years.

Then again, maybe I wouldn't agree if I had larger ones...

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Originally Posted by Dire Moose

So on November 17, 2017, I took my very first dose of estrogen. One of the best decisions of my life, and five years, a pair of D-cup boobs, and my butt no longer fitting my old boy pants later and I absolutely don’t regret it.

And yet, it doesn’t feel like it’s been that long. Even though I’m usually one of the longest-transitioned in the queer friend groups I’ve been with and looked up to as an inspiration somehow, I still feel like I’ve barely even started and hardly even know what I’m doing.

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Congrats on the developments! Even if it was five years ago there's no reason for it to feel like a long time

I'm hoping to go on hormones if I can lose a good amount of weight (personal decision to delay going transfem).

Life and transitioning is a neverending journey. Literally in some cases.

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Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche

Lucky! I can't seem to grow beyond a B cup after like 3 years.

Then again, maybe I wouldn't agree if I had larger ones...

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Well, I cheated a bit. I had a decent amount of swelling from pubertal gynecomastia that never completely went away. HRT already had a bit of a foundation to build on. And to answer your other question, yes I do see myself as lucky

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Originally Posted by Dire Moose

So on November 17, 2017, I took my very first dose of estrogen. One of the best decisions of my life, and five years, a pair of D-cup boobs, and my butt no longer fitting my old boy pants later and I absolutely don’t regret it.

And yet, it doesn’t feel like it’s been that long. Even though I’m usually one of the longest-transitioned in the queer friend groups I’ve been with and looked up to as an inspiration somehow, I still feel like I’ve barely even started and hardly even know what I’m doing.

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Hey, congrats! I'm around the five year mark for HRT, too. It's not magic, but it's (slowly) life-changing.

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Originally Posted by Dire Moose

So on November 17, 2017, I took my very first dose of estrogen. One of the best decisions of my life, and five years, a pair of D-cup boobs, and my butt no longer fitting my old boy pants later and I absolutely don’t regret it.

And yet, it doesn’t feel like it’s been that long. Even though I’m usually one of the longest-transitioned in the queer friend groups I’ve been with and looked up to as an inspiration somehow, I still feel like I’ve barely even started and hardly even know what I’m doing.

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I understand what you mean.

I took my first dose of T on October 24, 2006. It's sometimes hard to remember that it's been that long because it, well, HAS been that long. I've long-since completed the "firsts" and have been living as who I am for over a decade. It's sometimes hard to remember that I spent 30 years living as female.

I remember when I started transition, I found a transman group on LiveJournal. (Yeah, it's been that long...) I remember talking to the guys who had been on T for 3, 4, 5 years and being so in awe of them. Now I've been on T 3 times that long...

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Originally Posted by Kesnit

I understand what you mean.

I took my first dose of T on October 24, 2006. It's sometimes hard to remember that it's been that long because it, well, HAS been that long. I've long-since completed the "firsts" and have been living as who I am for over a decade. It's sometimes hard to remember that I spent 30 years living as female.

I remember when I started transition, I found a transman group on LiveJournal. (Yeah, it's been that long...) I remember talking to the guys who had been on T for 3, 4, 5 years and being so in awe of them. Now I've been on T 3 times that long...

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Sixteen years and thirty days is impressive. Congrats!

I dunno what the process was for you and Dire Moose. For me, my clinic began offering informed consent HRT just a few months before I scheduled a meeting with them. I had a much easier time than trans peeps who had to go through the frustration of procuring letters from mental health professionals or being compelled to go through a real-life test.

I just needed a letter from a therapist before my doctor would prescribe it.

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Originally Posted by Dire Moose

I just needed a letter from a therapist before my doctor would prescribe it.

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Oh, gotcha! Not informed consent, then.

Yeah, similar here. I talked to my regular therapist about it, she scheduled an interview with a specialist gender therapist for me (which was sort of weird since it was a phone interview during the covid days but obviously something normally done in person and he was pretty clearly asking questions off a list to fill out a form - at one point he asked what I was wearing, which is super weird to hear. "Uh, pajamas? It's 7am I just got up.")

From there that therapist forwarded me to an Endo.

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Originally Posted by BladeofObliviom

Yeah, similar here. I talked to my regular therapist about it, she scheduled an interview with a specialist gender therapist for me (which was sort of weird since it was a phone interview during the covid days but obviously something normally done in person and he was pretty clearly asking questions off a list to fill out a form - at one point he asked what I was wearing, which is super weird to hear. "Uh, pajamas? It's 7am I just got up.")

From there that therapist forwarded me to an Endo.

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Oh, gotcha. I guess I'm the only person who went through the easier informed consent process, then. That's almost surprising.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

I dunno what the process was for you and Dire Moose. For me, my clinic began offering informed consent HRT just a few months before I scheduled a meeting with them. I had a much easier time than trans peeps who had to go through the frustration of procuring letters from mental health professionals or being compelled to go through a real-life test.

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I had been seeing a therapist for unrelated issues when I came out as trans. She'd never had a trans patient before, but since we had an existing therapeutic relationship, she was willing to write a letter for me.

The biggest roadblock I ran into had more to do with timing than gatekeeping (and is a funny story in hindsight). I never watched The L Word, so didn't know that season 3 had a character who transitioned from female to male. Apparently, seeing Max transition made a lot of AFAB realize they are transman and went to the local clinic that focuses on LGBT+ issues - which is also the clinic I went to.

The nurse-practitioner I met with was rather rude when I first went in, and I was upset and annoyed. At some point in the meeting, she asked me if I was "doing this because of Max." I gave her a confused look and asked who Max was. Her entire attitude changed and she became a lot more upbeat and supportive.

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Originally Posted by Kesnit

I had been seeing a therapist for unrelated issues when I came out as trans. She'd never had a trans patient before, but since we had an existing therapeutic relationship, she was willing to write a letter for me.

The biggest roadblock I ran into had more to do with timing than gatekeeping (and is a funny story in hindsight). I never watched The L Word, so didn't know that season 3 had a character who transitioned from female to male. Apparently, seeing Max transition made a lot of AFAB realize they are transman and went to the local clinic that focuses on LGBT+ issues - which is also the clinic I went to.

The nurse-practitioner I met with was rather rude when I first went in, and I was upset and annoyed. At some point in the meeting, she asked me if I was "doing this because of Max." I gave her a confused look and asked who Max was. Her entire attitude changed and she became a lot more upbeat and supportive.

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I'm glad that ended well for you. I guess the frustrating worry about "transtrenders" isn't new. My experience is positively idyllic in comparison.

I got some similar grief from an out trans woman like a decade ago. I was just getting into cosplay, more specifically "crossplaying" a very tomboyish character from a strategy game and she accused me of doing it for attention.

That took a lot of my enthusiasm for cosplaying, and probably pushed me back into the closet for a few years.

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Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche

I got some similar grief from an out trans woman like a decade ago. I was just getting into cosplay, more specifically "crossplaying" a very tomboyish character from a strategy game and she accused me of doing it for attention.

That took a lot of my enthusiasm for cosplaying, and probably pushed me back into the closet for a few years.

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That must've sucked coming from a fellow trans person.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

That must've sucked coming from a fellow trans person.

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Yeah, I was struggling a lot with if I was "really" trans (there was a lot less information available back then, so I didn't really have a way of knowing a bunch of stuff was just junk science). A cis person being transphobic I could have just shrugged off, but...

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Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche

Yeah, I was struggling a lot with if I was "really" trans (there was a lot less information available back then, so I didn't really have a way of knowing a bunch of stuff was just junk science). A cis person being transphobic I could have just shrugged off, but...

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You should kick cis people being transphobic in the shins.

Sincerely, a cis person who absolutely deserves a kick in the shins if she does something transphobic. (Thankfully both rare and something my trans friends are averse to delivering even if I deserve it.)

On the topic at hand, I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you; I'm glad you're out now and presumably much happier for it.

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Originally Posted by BisectedBrioche

Yeah, I was struggling a lot with if I was "really" trans (there was a lot less information available back then, so I didn't really have a way of knowing a bunch of stuff was just junk science). A cis person being transphobic I could have just shrugged off, but...

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Yeah, I get it. If someone has authority, what they do has a greater effect.

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Originally Posted by Kesnit

Just a small rant...

I'm a public defender. The annual conference of all PDs in the state was this week. At the conference, there are 1-hour long sessions led by other attorneys (usually other PDs) with an interest in the topic. Although I didn't realize it until I got there Thursday, one of the breakout sessions that afternoon involved how to work with and represent transgender and NB juvenile clients. I had signed up for a different class at that time, but my boss (who knows I'm trans) went. I asked him later what was discussed, and was disgusted with how low level and petty the class was. My boss summed it up as "ask what name and pronouns they use. The word 'tranny' is offensive. Don't ask about their genitalia."

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So a little update...

After the conference where this "class" was held, I rode back (4 hour drive) with my boss and the office deputy. The deputy (who wasn't in the class and also knows I'm trans) commented that he feels like that class should be cleaned up and presented at the annual Management Conference. (A 2-day conference every year for the Chief Public Defender and Deputy Public Defender(s) in every office.)

I know this isn't what the Deputy meant, but it got me thinking. Why not me? I am a public defender, so I know what our job entails. I'm also a transman and have been out for 16 years (including my entire time working as a public defender).

I talked to our Office Manager (who is also a work-friend) this morning and she thought it was a good idea. However, she pointed out that if I did this, I would be out to EVERYONE in every PD office in the state - not just the management and HQ personnel. Obviously, this is a big step.

I am going to talk to our Deputy and bounce the idea off him. If he thinks it would be good, I can approach my boss, who would take it to the HQ Training Department (who plan the conferences).

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Originally Posted by Kesnit

So a little update...

After the conference where this "class" was held, I rode back (4 hour drive) with my boss and the office deputy. The deputy (who wasn't in the class and also knows I'm trans) commented that he feels like that class should be cleaned up and presented at the annual Management Conference. (A 2-day conference every year for the Chief Public Defender and Deputy Public Defender(s) in every office.)

I know this isn't what the Deputy meant, but it got me thinking. Why not me? I am a public defender, so I know what our job entails. I'm also a transman and have been out for 16 years (including my entire time working as a public defender).

I talked to our Office Manager (who is also a work-friend) this morning and she thought it was a good idea. However, she pointed out that if I did this, I would be out to EVERYONE in every PD office in the state - not just the management and HQ personnel. Obviously, this is a big step.

I am going to talk to our Deputy and bounce the idea off him. If he thinks it would be good, I can approach my boss, who would take it to the HQ Training Department (who plan the conferences).

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Sending you strength and support, whether you decide to go through with this or not. It shouldn't be solely the burden of trans individuals to educate the rest of us, because in an ideal world there would be enough people of all types who had the proper expertise to educate everyone, in all industries. It seems like there's so much ignorance, though, that we need to shut up and let people with lived experience do the talking. But only if everyone else doesn't just listen, but is also prepared to act and enact change.

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Originally Posted by theangelJean

Sending you strength and support, whether you decide to go through with this or not.

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I am going to think about it over the long weekend and hopefully have a decision made by next week.

I talked to the Deputy yesterday evening. He also thinks it is a good idea, if I decide to go through with it. He recommended I email the head of HR for our agency, the head of training, and the guy who coordinates minority issues in our agency's HR. He also pointed out that there is a chance that doing this would eventually out me to everyone in the legal community. (i.e. a PD from Office A becomes a prosecutor in jurisdiction B. They go to their annual conference and meet a prosecutor where I practice and make a comment like "oh, where that transman is!?") That is a little more intimidating, as there are prosecutors here that I would prefer not have any idea of my medical history. On the other hand, they know me as (Male Legal Name) and have known me as (Male Legal Name) for almost 6 years, so it isn't like their only impression of me would be "that 'tranny' defense attorney."

Of course, doing this would also mean I have to come out to the remaining people in my office who don't know. (There are 10 people in this office. 4 I know for sure know I'm trans. One we think knows, though he may have forgotten. The other 5 probably don't know. I know I've never told them and I can't remember anything I said that would tip them off.) The Office Manager offered to help me get the word out by "staging" conversation with me where comments are made that would clue the listener in in places where others could overhear.

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Originally Posted by Kesnit

I am going to think about it over the long weekend and hopefully have a decision made by next week.

I talked to the Deputy yesterday evening. He also thinks it is a good idea, if I decide to go through with it. He recommended I email the head of HR for our agency, the head of training, and the guy who coordinates minority issues in our agency's HR. He also pointed out that there is a chance that doing this would eventually out me to everyone in the legal community. (i.e. a PD from Office A becomes a prosecutor in jurisdiction B. They go to their annual conference and meet a prosecutor where I practice and make a comment like "oh, where that transman is!?") That is a little more intimidating, as there are prosecutors here that I would prefer not have any idea of my medical history. On the other hand, they know me as (Male Legal Name) and have known me as (Male Legal Name) for almost 6 years, so it isn't like their only impression of me would be "that 'tranny' defense attorney."

Of course, doing this would also mean I have to come out to the remaining people in my office who don't know. (There are 10 people in this office. 4 I know for sure know I'm trans. One we think knows, though he may have forgotten. The other 5 probably don't know. I know I've never told them and I can't remember anything I said that would tip them off.) The Office Manager offered to help me get the word out by "staging" conversation with me where comments are made that would clue the listener in in places where others could overhear.

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Seconding the good wishes! That's a hard decision.

I've been wanting to get a breast reduction for many years and even had an appointment with a surgeon in summer 2021. But she said I needed to lose weight and maintain it for 6 months first and, well, that didn't happen. Part of that is because it's hard to exercise with a larger chest, and part of it is because when I lose weight, my chest is proportionally bigger, so that's not very motivating.

I'm seeing a different surgeon in a few days. The goal is to get my chest small enough that a binder with do something when I'm feeling more masculine or androgynous, and if I'm feeling feminine I'll have some breasts.

I've been thinking about taking testosterone but I'll wait until after my surgery. It's a bit tricky because I want to present as a woman sometimes and as a man sometimes, so it's not like I can transition to one "form" that will always work, if that makes sense. If anyone has experience with that, I'd be happy to hear about it.

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Originally Posted by Lissou

I've been wanting to get a breast reduction for many years and even had an appointment with a surgeon in summer 2021. But she said I needed to lose weight and maintain it for 6 months first and, well, that didn't happen. Part of that is because it's hard to exercise with a larger chest, and part of it is because when I lose weight, my chest is proportionally bigger, so that's not very motivating.

I'm seeing a different surgeon in a few days. The goal is to get my chest small enough that a binder with do something when I'm feeling more masculine or androgynous, and if I'm feeling feminine I'll have some breasts.

I've been thinking about taking testosterone but I'll wait until after my surgery. It's a bit tricky because I want to present as a woman sometimes and as a man sometimes, so it's not like I can transition to one "form" that will always work, if that makes sense. If anyone has experience with that, I'd be happy to hear about it.

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Ugh, that sucks about the weight requirement. Hopefully the second surgeon will have better news.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Ugh, that sucks about the weight requirement. Hopefully the second surgeon will have better news.

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I saw the new surgeon, and there is good news and bad news. The good news is that there is none of that weight requirement stuff. The bad news is that I learned that "100% covered" by France's healthcare actually means, in this case, 100% of 400€, and my health insurance can cover an extra 300€. But the total amount is about 3k so that's still over 2k I'd have to cover myself. It's better than the zero coverage I'd get if it were purely aesthetic, but not great.

I'm going to see if I can find a doctor who doesn't charge extra but I don't have great hopes, and plan B is... saving up I guess?

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Originally Posted by Lissou

I saw the new surgeon, and there is good news and bad news. The good news is that there is none of that weight requirement stuff. The bad news is that I learned that "100% covered" by France's healthcare actually means, in this case, 100% of 400€, and my health insurance can cover an extra 300€. But the total amount is about 3k so that's still over 2k I'd have to cover myself. It's better than the zero coverage I'd get if it were purely aesthetic, but not great.

I'm going to see if I can find a doctor who doesn't charge extra but I don't have great hopes, and plan B is... saving up I guess?

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Wow, that sucks. Especially since trans healthcare is so life-preserving. Hoping you can find someone.

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Originally Posted by TaiLiu

Wow, that sucks. Especially since trans healthcare is so life-preserving. Hoping you can find someone.

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Thanks! I think I'll have to find the "exchange rate" of time and money. How much am I willing to spend to get it done how much sooner? But it will depend on my options, and very much on whether I find a job this year :P

Some good news is that my boyfriend talked to me yesterday about it all. He doesn't really understand the concept of gender identity or transgenderism, let alone genderfluidity. I've told him I'd like to be more androgynous, he knows I'm planning to get a reduction, and lately I've started wearing binders around him if I'm more masculine that day (I've done it twice so far, once this year and once at the end of last year).
So yesterday while we were on the couch and I was wearing a binder, he broached the subject. He started with apologising if he was mixing up everything then asked me if I would prefer to "remove my chest completely" rather than have a reduction, adding that if I did he supported me and if I didn't he supported me too. I explained that I wanted to have breasts and be more feminine some days, and that them being smaller would allow me to, well, I didn't phrase it that way, but to present as male or female depending on how I felt and so I thought it would work better.

Then he talked about a couple he had heard of when one person transitioned to male and the other man, who identified as straight, ended up staying with his partner because he found that in the end he didn't lose his attraction. Then my boyfriend added that he loves me the way I am inside, and however I looked on the outside, what mattered was that I feel good about myself and be happy.

I was really surprised, in a good way, and felt so accepted by him. I hadn't really allowed myself to think about it too much, my late husband was very uncomfortable when I presented more masculine and so I got used not to really expressing that part of myself because the relationship meant more to me I guess? And I think in retrospect I was scared it would be the same thing and delayed talking about it more deeply. I'm so happy he decided to bring it up and of course that he's so loving and accepting. Maybe down the line he'll realise some aspects are a bit too much for him, but at the very least he's starting from a great place and I feel better having an ally in him <3

That's wonderful, Lissou! It must be such a relief to find that the one you're close to actually has some understanding and you don't have to go over everything, and even better that he's accepting and ready to support you!

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Originally Posted by Lissou

Thanks! I think I'll have to find the "exchange rate" of time and money. How much am I willing to spend to get it done how much sooner? But it will depend on my options, and very much on whether I find a job this year :P

Some good news is that my boyfriend talked to me yesterday about it all. He doesn't really understand the concept of gender identity or transgenderism, let alone genderfluidity. I've told him I'd like to be more androgynous, he knows I'm planning to get a reduction, and lately I've started wearing binders around him if I'm more masculine that day (I've done it twice so far, once this year and once at the end of last year).
So yesterday while we were on the couch and I was wearing a binder, he broached the subject. He started with apologising if he was mixing up everything then asked me if I would prefer to "remove my chest completely" rather than have a reduction, adding that if I did he supported me and if I didn't he supported me too. I explained that I wanted to have breasts and be more feminine some days, and that them being smaller would allow me to, well, I didn't phrase it that way, but to present as male or female depending on how I felt and so I thought it would work better.

Then he talked about a couple he had heard of when one person transitioned to male and the other man, who identified as straight, ended up staying with his partner because he found that in the end he didn't lose his attraction. Then my boyfriend added that he loves me the way I am inside, and however I looked on the outside, what mattered was that I feel good about myself and be happy.

I was really surprised, in a good way, and felt so accepted by him. I hadn't really allowed myself to think about it too much, my late husband was very uncomfortable when I presented more masculine and so I got used not to really expressing that part of myself because the relationship meant more to me I guess? And I think in retrospect I was scared it would be the same thing and delayed talking about it more deeply. I'm so happy he decided to bring it up and of course that he's so loving and accepting. Maybe down the line he'll realise some aspects are a bit too much for him, but at the very least he's starting from a great place and I feel better having an ally in him <3

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And quality of surgeon, too, I'm guessing. Unless they're all about the same. I have a friend who got bottom surgery. She travelled far away, no insurance, to get it done by this well-known surgeon.

Seconding Jean. That's great! :smallsmile:

Thanks! The support is going to make a big difference if it takes me a while to save up. The new surgeon has good results and I really like him, we connected well so I think I will stick with him, it seems he's around mid-range for prices but I'm willing to pay a bit more for someone I really trust.
I'm looking for a job right now but I graduated from a UX/UI bootcamp recently and the average income in that field is a lot higher than I'm used to. I don't plan on moving to a more expensive apartment or change my lifestyle or anything so if I do get a job I will be able to save up much faster than, well, at any time in my life up till now, so I'm going to focus on that and I might be able to get surgery this year. I will let you all know if it happens and how it goes.

And if things change I will let you know as well of course. Even with the greatest boyfriend I could ever have hoped for, the support from this forum makes a big difference too, and the fact some of you have gone through similar things helps me feel less "weird" and more valid.