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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Lex-Kat
*name stuff snipped*
I actually have a similar situation, except that I'm not trans. It does work, if the birth name isn't too strongly coded (like Bobbie can be a girl name) to just explain "Oh, my mam calls me Bobbie, family thing." But do you know, my mother (and father) have called me by my birth name in front of people I've just been introduced to by the name I use now, and most of the time? They literally do not notice it. It doesn't register. If most of your friends know your real name, it's not going to be a big deal if your mam calls you Bobbie for a while. (Also, your chosen name is gorgeous, nice job!)
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Originally Posted by
golentan
Oh! How do people here feel about interspecies relationships between sentient consenting individuals? I got flack recently for shipping (not erotic fanfiction or anything, just "I think they'd make a cute couple) an uplifted dolphin with a human (there was a lot of talk about bestiality) and I noticed that a lot of the people criticizing were also using rhetoric similar to anti gay stuff...
It's all about fully consenting adults for me. If everyone is a person who is fully capable of free consent (not a child, fully sentient, fully aware, no coercion, no or negligible power differential), all is well.
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Originally Posted by
Asteron Questar
That reminds me, a friend of mine watched Her, and he said it's an awesome movie. Did anyone else watch it?
I haven't, but I've heard it's really well done. I want to see it, but I get really upset by creepy / dark movies (and other fiction) these days. I guess I'll try to catch up when I'm no longer reliant on antidepressants to keep my mind together when it gets dark!
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Originally Posted by
Melayl
So, I find myself coming to the Playgrounders for advice and information...
*snip*
It actually sounds to me like he might be experiencing the early growth of his sexual orientation, and might be gay. Of course, he also might be trans or he might be cis-hetero, but just because I don't think anyone mentioned it, I'm going to say he might be gay. He might think "I am a boy and I do boy things and have boy parts" and also "but I want to kiss other boys like a girl does" and therefore express that as "half boy and half girl".
You might be able to find children's books that have gay and/or trans characters in them, or you might have gay and/or trans people in your life or in the popular culture your household consumes that you could open gentle conversations about. Things like "Next week, I am going to a wedding, where Mary will marry Patrick. Do you know about weddings? When two people love each other, they have a wedding to be married, like I did with your daddy [if that is true]. Most often, a boy and a girl get married, but sometimes a boy marries a boy." If you have some conversations at his level on surrounding topics (kissing, consensual expressions of affection, weddings/marriage, girl/boy clothes, girl/boy parts, etc), he'll learn the language around this stuf, and be better able to express himself. Then you'll have a better idea of how he's feeling. And, of course, lots of "Sometimes a boy marries a boy / she was born with boy parts but actually when she grew up she realised she was a girl and told everyone / some people are different and that's okay."
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Lentrax
The biggest and best thing I can think of for advice on this is to let him experiment with his feelings. Let him know that you will continue to love him. Let him know that it is okay to find out what he feels, and that feeling it is not wrong or sick or depraved.
And make sure that he knows and understands that home will always be safe for him no matter what may happen outside.
That is really all I have, but to be honest I am not sure myself.
Thanks. We're always trying to do this. Hopefully we're succeeding...
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Originally Posted by
Astrella
This. It's really important to repeat that however your child choses to express themselves that it is okay and that there's nothing wrong with it. Cause they'll receive plenty of messages speaking the opposite from the world and they need those counteracted.
Also good advice, and thank you, too.
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Originally Posted by
Musashi
I guess the best solution is not to make a big deal out of it. Let him figure things out on his own, but if he ever comes to you or expresses doubts about something that might be actually about him, be ready to join him and support him actively. Also, little things. If he's saying he met someone, ask "Oh, and what's his or her name?" instead of just "what's her name?". Or if he looks for ideas for a disguise, don't give ideas that are just masculine, you can also suggest he be a witch or a fairy. Anywhere where gender might be relevant, try and remember to give him other options than him being male, and his partner being female.
He's pretty young, and if he's not able yet to express what he means by being half-boy and half-girl, then it might just be a thing of the moment. He might grow out of it and never remember even talking about it. Or he might not, and feel he's not just a boy. Don't stress out too much about it, but don't dismiss anything he might say, either.
Using male pronouns isn't a bad thing, I think. After all, you're not sure, he might not be sure either, and statistically, it's safer to call male-bodied children "he" unless they clearly express another wish.
Thank you, this is also good advice.
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Originally Posted by
Themrys
Did you tell him that he should not try to kiss people who might not want to be kissed, or did you tell him he shouldn't do it at school because they have policies on things like that? :smallconfused:
I mean, that's a great opportunity to talk about consent.
Both. :smallsmile: We tried to be quite clear on that point.
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Originally Posted by
KenderWizard
It actually sounds to me like he might be experiencing the early growth of his sexual orientation, and might be gay. Of course, he also might be trans or he might be cis-hetero, but just because I don't think anyone mentioned it, I'm going to say he might be gay. He might think "I am a boy and I do boy things and have boy parts" and also "but I want to kiss other boys like a girl does" and therefore express that as "half boy and half girl".
You might be able to find children's books that have gay and/or trans characters in them, or you might have gay and/or trans people in your life or in the popular culture your household consumes that you could open gentle conversations about. Things like "Next week, I am going to a wedding, where Mary will marry Patrick. Do you know about weddings? When two people love each other, they have a wedding to be married, like I did with your daddy [if that is true]. Most often, a boy and a girl get married, but sometimes a boy marries a boy." If you have some conversations at his level on surrounding topics (kissing, consensual expressions of affection, weddings/marriage, girl/boy clothes, girl/boy parts, etc), he'll learn the language around this stuf, and be better able to express himself. Then you'll have a better idea of how he's feeling. And, of course, lots of "Sometimes a boy marries a boy / she was born with boy parts but actually when she grew up she realised she was a girl and told everyone / some people are different and that's okay."
We've thought that might be the case, also. My cousin/best friend is openly gay, and while we havnen't really discussed it with him, our son does know that his "Uncle" (whom he really loves) has a male partner and that it's OK. I hadn't thought about looking into children's books. I'll have to see what's available...
Thank you all for the advice and information! My folks did a good job raising us, and I'd like to do the same...
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Ooh also, 'The Ship Who Sang'.
How do we feel about relationships between consenting, adult, disembodied cognitive organs and baseline humans?
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Is there a point where advanced consciousness gets so far ab0ove human consciousness that a relationship with a human would be analogous to intraspecies paedophilia?
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
Ooh also, 'The Ship Who Sang'.
How do we feel about relationships between consenting, adult, disembodied cognitive organs and baseline humans?
Is whatever they're doing safe, are they both of sound mind, and are they giving and able to give consent? Answer yes to all, then it's okay.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Eldest
Is whatever they're doing safe, are they both of sound mind, and are they giving and able to give consent? Answer yes to all, then it's okay.
I'm gonna be that guy (well, that girl) and point out that while it's technically true, it can be hard to tell when is something safe even when everybody agrees on the same definition of "safety", soundness of mind is a continuum rather than a binary thing, and the third part should be easier than the rest (safe for the part where power relations, and maturity necessary to understand the consequences of that consent, come into play).
Because it's easier said than done, it's something we still have to think about.
This was Musashi's pedant minute!
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
Ooh also, 'The Ship Who Sang'.
How do we feel about relationships between consenting, adult, disembodied cognitive organs and baseline humans?
I am completely in favor of this and would like to be a ship please.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Spoiler: Dolphins
Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noparlpf
Is there a point where advanced consciousness gets so far ab0ove human consciousness that a relationship with a human would be analogous to intraspecies paedophilia?
That depends entirely on what you think of as 'paedophilia' I would think. By modern human standards, a significant gap in age or maturity doesn't preclude a legal relationship (so long as both partners are of a consenting age); I'm pretty sure the issue is whether both individuals meet the same minimum threshold at which they can understand (at least, to a sufficient degree) the potential consequences of their relationship and intimacy. Though that becomes a bit hazy if the relationship isn't one that could "bear fruit", so to speak, in the first place; even if we assume the theoretical nonhuman partner is sexually compatible with their human counterpart, it's probable even in the most fluffy of science fiction that they have no chance of conceiving. Thus the concerns become ones of physical well-being, rather than having to deal with unintentional baby-related issues.
I suppose if you think about it in terms of the more advanced intelligence potentially coercing their partner, then it could be an issue in a similar vein.
I could also be missing the point completely. I honestly haven't given much thought to this sort of issue before.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Jaycemonde
Welcome to every "intelligent" discussion [or news story, or documentary, or parental discussion, or religious condemnation, or etc.] about how f'd up all furry art is ever, regardless of context or who's in the pictures. You get used to the comments, trust me.
As for my own stance on the matter, that should be fairly obvious.
Yeah. Although, I don't think I can get used to the comments, myself...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
*Sapient
Also hello everyone ._.
Hi! Is that a fence or a barrel? Nice fence or barrel!
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Originally Posted by
Melayl
So, I find myself coming to the Playgrounders for advice and information...
A couple of weeks ago, while sitting at supper, our 5 year old son told us that he tried to kiss a boy on the playground at kindergarten. We asked him why he did that, and he said, "Because I'm half boy and half girl." He couldn't articulate why he felt that way, which is understandable (he is just 5, after all).
We told him that it was ok that he felt like that, and that we love him no matter what, but it is not ok that he tried to kiss someone at school (they have strict policies on things like that).
I don't even know if that's the way he really felt (being 5, it could go either way), or if his feelings might change later, or several laters.
He's our son, and we're always going to love him, no matter what. We're always going to support him, no matter what. I guess what I'm asking of the Playground is: what else can we do to support him/help him find out who he is/whatever blarhgleflarglewhoo..... and have him know we still love him?
And yes, I know I'm exclusively using the male pronoun for him, but unless and until he's able to articulate that he wants us to do differently, that's what we'll continue to do. It's easier on our brains, and probably less confusing for him, too.
Good advice elsewhere. I would say, relax, roll with it, it may be nothing, and if it's not then careful observation (also, passive, passive observation. No clinics! No dissection!) should give you the cues you need to handle it.
My only real advice is, recognize – and be vocal, explicit and clear about – the fact that people change. If hypothetically Son is gay one day, straight the next, trans in a week and decides in college they're nongendered? It's okay and healthy to discuss how that seems, but it's bad form to say things like "well which is it?" Or "you must be bisexual because you did once sleep with a [gender]" or something. Allow the pupa to shed with grace; don't point out the times where the child is emotionally all elbows and awkwardness.
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Originally Posted by
Togath
I'll be honest here.. even if they were over aggressive, they were in the right.. even if it's "non sexual", you're still shipping an animal and a human.
If it were an anthropomorphic/furry I might be able to see it a little better, but if it's fully an animal...:smalleek:
The thing is, while an understandable personal judgement, it's just that. There's very little reason to be against an intelligent person who happens to be in an animal body and a human, other than "it creeps me out". Judging others for a personal squick is usually bad form.
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Originally Posted by
noparlpf
Humans are just (sapient) animals.
It's the 'just' that people have problems with, in my experience. The 'merely a smarter animal' because merely is a limiter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Themrys
Did you tell him that he should not try to kiss people who might not want to be kissed, or did you tell him he shouldn't do it at school because they have policies on things like that? :smallconfused:
I mean, that's a great opportunity to talk about consent.
Oh that's good, right on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noparlpf
Is there a point where advanced consciousness gets so far ab0ove human consciousness that a relationship with a human would be analogous to intraspecies paedophilia?
I don't think it's a question with any merit in a support thread about sexuality and gender myself. There comes a point where the hypothetical has no value. When you reach the orientation version of "I'm a toaster", you've hit that point.
We have Gollentan for whom coitus with a human is cross-species, and we have Jaycemonde who has already twice expressed anger at the general topic's trends. I think we should let it go and focus on support and help. I think if this matters to anyone enough to continue, it should find it's own thread.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
Good advice elsewhere. I would say, relax, roll with it, it may be nothing, and if it's not then careful observation (also, passive, passive observation. No clinics! No dissection!) should give you the cues you need to handle it.
My only real advice is, recognize – and be vocal, explicit and clear about – the fact that people change. If hypothetically Son is gay one day, straight the next, trans in a week and decides in college they're nongendered? It's okay and healthy to discuss how that seems, but it's bad form to say things like "well which is it?" Or "you must be bisexual because you did once sleep with a [gender]" or something. Allow the pupa to shed with grace; don't point out the times where the child is emotionally all elbows and awkwardness.
Good advice here, too. Thanks. :smallsmile:
No, definitely no clinics or anything like that! We know there's nothing wrong with him, and that he'll be whatever it is that he is (i.e. himself).
I don't really care what he is day-to-day or year-to-year, he's still our son and always will be. We'll try to make sure all the kids know that people change and that's OK, too.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Although depending on stuff in say, six, seven years, maybe a gender therapist. If your kid turns out to be some form of trans*, puberty-blockers are better than having to do HRT after puberty.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Hum, not that I particularly mind, but could the dolphin discussion be taken to spoilers or something?
Spoiler: Answer to noparlf
Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noparlpf
Is there a point where advanced consciousness gets so far ab0ove human consciousness that a relationship with a human would be analogous to intraspecies paedophilia?
This proposition is problematic because it assumes that what is inferior by it's "consciousness" -- whatever that means -- is a child. It transposes differences in "consciousness" as differences in age. Not counting actual youth, the same sort of analogy has been used to marginalize people with mental disabilities, non-European cultures ("Primitive people are humanity in its childhood") and, arguably, women, who have all been categorized as minors in some way, and still are in some cases. So yeah.
In any case, what matters is consent. It's really a yes/no answer: can you consent to sexual relationship? There are very few in-betweens. Normal humans would still be able to consent in your "advanced consciousness" scenario, so there wouldn't be any problem.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
SiuiS
Hi! Is that a fence or a barrel? Nice fence or barrel!
Barrel :smallbiggrin:
I saw the thread here and wanted to join in. The dolphin thing was a weird start, but whatevah.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Musashi
Spoiler
Show
I'm gonna be that guy (well, that girl) and point out that while it's technically true, it can be hard to tell when is something safe even when everybody agrees on the same definition of "safety", soundness of mind is a continuum rather than a binary thing, and the third part should be easier than the rest (safe for the part where power relations, and maturity necessary to understand the consequences of that consent, come into play).
Because it's easier said than done, it's something we still have to think about.
This was Musashi's pedant minute
!
Spoiler: Dolphins?
Show
Yes, there are nuances. Overall point still stands. That is what I require to be okay with the relationship/act. And there are nuances to that to, please don't start calling out examples of stuff that technically clears the questions but is bad.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
Barrel :smallbiggrin:
I saw the thread here and wanted to join in. The dolphin thing was a weird start, but whatevah.
Yeah, it's making me rather want to go hide in a barrel myself, considering it seemed to be petering out and then got resurrected. It is a nice barrel though.
Should hopefully blow over in another page or so though.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
I'll move it to another thread, give me a minute.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
So, are introductions in order? It's been a while since I posted somewhere new. :smalleek:
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Feel free to tell us as much or as little as you feel comfortable with, friend!
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
So, are introductions in order? It's been a while since I posted somewhere new. :smalleek:
You can if you feel like it, certainly.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
So, are introductions in order? It's been a while since I posted somewhere new. :smalleek:
Yes, introductions are in order :smallsmile:
And welcome, Barrel-Rider!
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
So, well, I guess I'm here because I want to learn more than anything else. I'm not really sure where I stand at the moment... I haven't really had the chance to make any decisions about gender/sexuality yet. I'm born male, and don't really feel terribly out of place with my body, but I have a strong aversion to masculinity and a general preference towards femininity in myself and those around me. I've never been attracted to someone of the same gender, though I don't think I never could be, and I actually like more androgynous sorts of beauty.
So, yeah... I don't think Questioning would even be quite right. I pretty much fall under the category of very, very confused.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
So, well, I guess I'm here because I want to learn more than anything else. I'm not really sure where I stand at the moment... I haven't really had the chance to make any decisions about gender/sexuality yet. I'm born male, and don't really feel terribly out of place with my body, but I have a strong aversion to masculinity and a general preference towards femininity in myself and those around me. I've never been attracted to someone of the same gender, though I don't think I never could be, and I actually like more androgynous sorts of beauty.
So, yeah... I don't think Questioning would even be quite right. I pretty much fall under the category of very, very confused.
What do you mean by "general preference towards femininity in myself and those around me"? What does it involve, in practice?
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
So, well, I guess I'm here because I want to learn more than anything else. I'm not really sure where I stand at the moment... I haven't really had the chance to make any decisions about gender/sexuality yet. I'm born male, and don't really feel terribly out of place with my body, but I have a strong aversion to masculinity and a general preference towards femininity in myself and those around me. I've never been attracted to someone of the same gender, though I don't think I never could be, and I actually like more androgynous sorts of beauty.
So, yeah... I don't think Questioning would even be quite right. I pretty much fall under the category of very, very confused.
If you can, I'd say just go with the flow. As someone suffering perpetual confusion on many of these subjects myself, you have my sympathies. I'm most at peace about them when I'm with someone, and just losing myself in the moment and closeness with them rather than worrying about the principles behind it. Or when I'm embracing my feminine side without thinking about it as a feminine side.
I don't know if that helps at all.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
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Originally Posted by
Enrico Dandolo
What do you mean by "general preference towards femininity in myself and those around me"? What does it involve, in practice?
If I feel comfortable in a situation and the people I'm around, I tend to get a lot more bubbly, change my posture and the way I walk, skip around more than walk... It's not stuff that I think would make a difference for most people, but for me it feels like I'm not forcing myself to be more masculine just to seem normal.
I've never done anything major... Ever since I was told that I didn't look good with long hair, I've kept it short, and I started disliking my face so I've basically had a beard for four years so I didn't have to be disappointed when I look at myself in the mirror, and those two things together made the period in which I even considered trying to look feminine very short. I don't like how I look in any non-concealing clothes anyways.
Regarding 'people around me', I feel much more comfortable in the company of women than men, and tend to find more points of commonality, shared interests, etc with the former. This is, of course, a generalization; but I just find that I'm more likely to get along with someone who identifies as female.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
If I feel comfortable in a situation and the people I'm around, I tend to get a lot more bubbly, change my posture and the way I walk, skip around more than walk... It's not stuff that I think would make a difference for most people, but for me it feels like I'm not forcing myself to be more masculine just to seem normal.
I've never done anything major... Ever since I was told that I didn't look good with long hair, I've kept it short, and I started disliking my face so I've basically had a beard for four years so I didn't have to be disappointed when I look at myself in the mirror, and those two things together made the period in which I even considered trying to look feminine very short. I don't like how I look in any non-concealing clothes anyways.
Regarding 'people around me', I feel much more comfortable in the company of women than men, and tend to find more points of commonality, shared interests, etc with the former. This is, of course, a generalization; but I just find that I'm more likely to get along with someone who identifies as female.
I understand that, especially the first and the third paragraphs.
Unless I paid specific attention (i.e. in more serious contexts, etc.), I tended to be more "bubbly", as you say. And I'm even more extreme than you are with rehgards to men: I'm by default uncomfortable and incapable to develop relationships as strong as with women.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Enrico Dandolo
I understand that, especially the first and the third paragraphs.
Unless I paid specific attention (i.e. in more serious contexts, etc.), I tended to be more "bubbly", as you say. And I'm even more extreme than you are with regards to men: I'm by default uncomfortable and incapable to develop relationships as strong as with women.
Yeah, I don't tend to enjoy myself much in male company, which is a shame, since some of my closest friends at the moment are male. I probably have the most fun in the company of an MtF friend of mine; I tend to copy her mannerisms when I'm around her, and I have a good deal of envy and appreciation for how energetic and girly she is.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
So, are introductions in order? It's been a while since I posted somewhere new. :smalleek:
Yes they are. Hi, I'm Eldest, i'm a big tiger. Except when I don't want to be.
Or did you mean introducing yourself... :smallconfused:
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eldest
Yes they are. Hi, I'm Eldest, i'm a big tiger. Except when I don't want to be.
Or did you mean introducing yourself... :smallconfused:
Oh, are we introducing ourselves all over again? Okay, hi, I'm golentan. I may or may not be a constantly reincarnating remnant of an ancient intergalactic war criminal trying desperately to atone for my past actions, either way I'm certainly insane (it's the one thing me, my psychiatrist, and my possibly delusional memories all agree on), and I am constantly beset by confusion and disquiet over my sexual identity due to a history of sexual abuse as a child.
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Re: LGBTAI+ #50: Warning: This topic has exceeded its maximum awesome level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nexaduro
Barrel :smallbiggrin:
Called it!
Quote:
I saw the thread here and wanted to join in. The dolphin thing was a weird start, but whatevah.
We do that sometimes~
Our only trouble is recognizing when something is no longer relevant. Spirits know I've had dozens of tangents my own self!