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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pendell
So the RLM review makes several critical points worth pointing out.
Here is how they summarize all the ways this movie trolls (They used the term) the audience:
Its not the Snoke dying, Rey having no parents, or Luke being a curmudgeon, were necessarily bad [decisions], but the whole movie is a mess.
Moreover they say that this movie makes its hard to complain about TFA. Since TFA basically is ANH and this movie decides to go and do something different and its a mess.
Still, this movie can't really be new, because they are limited to the same Rebellion and TIE fighters and AT-ATs and that's all we know about the universe they are in.
They conclude that there will be a spherical super weapon in the next movie.
According to these critics: this is all Star Wars is ever going to be. Its always going to be some variation of a young Jedi leading a rebellion against some Empire-like entity with stormtroopers and TIE fighters. They may be trying to build off of are just movies.
Its like trying to create an expanded universe from the Back To The Future movies.
I certainly don't agree you can't do an expanded universe from the Star Wars franchise (it worked once, the second time around seems to be going smoothly), but I do know these movies really don't help that project.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
I certainly don't agree you can't do an expanded universe from the Star Wars franchise (it worked once, the second time around seems to be going smoothly), but I do know these movies really don't help that project.
Bloodline is the weakest of Claudia Greys books and Poe Dameron's comic is spinning wheels because it can't really do much else. Phasma's comic had no endearing characters it didn't kill off and her book doesn't seem much better.
This whole era is a bust. There just is not a place you can expand from when it retreads so many story beats and so many visuals while having even less wiggle room.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
According to these critics: this is all Star Wars is ever going to be. Its always going to be some variation of a young Jedi leading a rebellion against some Empire-like entity with stormtroopers and TIE fighters. They may be trying to build off of are just movies.
Its like trying to create an expanded universe from the Back To The Future movies.
I certainly don't agree you can't do an expanded universe from the Star Wars franchise (it worked once, the second time around seems to be going smoothly), but I do know these movies really don't help that project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
This whole era is a bust. There just is not a place you can expand from when it retreads so many story beats and so many visuals while having even less wiggle room.
There's so much more they could do with it if they were willing to try, though! And not even particularly risky stuff!
Even if this era's a bust (which it may well be after this movie, since the Resistance is effectively destroyed and now a non-factor), there's tons of stuff they could do with the spin-off movies in the OT era. How many potential plot threads didn't we follow? I wrote a treatment for a fanfilm many years ago that never got off the ground, but what if, late in the Hoth evacuation, some enterprising Star Destroyer captain noticed that several transports had already gotten away and orders one of his bombers to plant S-thread trackers on a fleeing transport to find out where they're going? Obviously soon thereafter all of Death Squadron's ships were called off to pursue the Falcon, but our enterprising captain, after receiving that order, puts out a call of his own to the closest sector fleet...
And that's just one idea. An idea that involves the Rebel fleet, Rogue Squadron (I would swallow a squadron of elite X-wing pilots pulling a SEAD mission on a Star Destroyer - or more to the point, to prevent immediate Rebel escape, an Interdictor - a lot more readily than one guy doing it by himself), and a potentially well-done space battle and desperate escape. There are all KINDS of other things to do. Going back to the sequel era, surely the Republic fleet wasn't 100% at Hosnian Prime (because that's asinine); cover a Republic patrol group trying to avoid the First Order mop-up operation (which is, incidentally, likely the only thing that could salvage the Resistance at this point). In fact, that could be a sub-plot of Episode IX, because the Resistance desperately needs something like that to happen and the survivors to meet up with them or they're a non-factor. Star Wars is chock full of stories that can be told; it's a GALAXY (though Mssrs. Abrams and Johnson sure as hell haven't been treating it like one).
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Pffthahahaaaa.
No. Hamil wanted this. They didn't trash his character at all, in so much as yes briefly considering stabbing your nephew is probably bad for numerous reasons. But he clearly feels bad about it. Luke Skywalker can make mistakes. Yoda can make mistake. Get over your hero worship.
No he didn't. Unless you want to tell people that Mark Hamil is like...lying or something. Here, here's a very helpful article for you. He didn't want this but in the end he did it anyway.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Razade
I did ask for the interview where he said that, so thanks. I wasn't aware of this interview, and like I said after what I said, I'd like the interview so I can be sure people just aren't reading into things.
I had already found it myself by this point, but thanks all the same.
Also, hey, look at this quote, also from the interview and from Mark Hamil: “I still haven’t accepted it completely, but it’s only a movie,” Hamill said. “I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset. And I came to really believe that Rian was the exact man that they needed for this job.”
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade Paladin
There's so much more they
could do with it if they were willing to try, though! And not even particularly risky stuff!
Even if this era's a bust (which it may well be after this movie, since the Resistance is effectively destroyed and now a non-factor), there's tons of stuff they could do with the spin-off movies in the OT era. How many potential plot threads didn't we follow? I wrote a treatment for a fanfilm many years ago that never got off the ground, but what if, late in the Hoth evacuation, some enterprising Star Destroyer captain noticed that several transports had already gotten away and orders one of his bombers to plant
S-thread trackers on a fleeing transport to find out where they're going? Obviously soon thereafter all of Death Squadron's ships were called off to pursue the Falcon, but our enterprising captain, after receiving that order, puts out a call of his own to the closest sector fleet...
And that's just one idea. An idea that involves the Rebel fleet, Rogue Squadron (I would swallow a squadron of elite X-wing pilots pulling a SEAD mission on a Star Destroyer - or more to the point, to prevent immediate Rebel escape, an Interdictor - a lot more readily than one guy doing it by himself), and a potentially well-done space battle and desperate escape. There are all KINDS of other things to do. Going back to the sequel era, surely the Republic fleet wasn't 100% at Hosnian Prime (because that's asinine); cover a Republic patrol group trying to avoid the First Order mop-up operation (which is, incidentally, likely the only thing that could salvage the Resistance at this point). In fact, that could be a sub-plot of Episode IX, because the Resistance desperately needs something like that to happen and the survivors to meet up with them or they're a non-factor. Star Wars is chock full of stories that can be told; it's a GALAXY (though Mssrs. Abrams and Johnson sure as hell haven't been treating it like one).
Pretty much this. Before these movies came out i was thinking about writing a 3 part fan fiction about another segment of the Rebel Alliance, far removed from our heroes, who where primarily fighting in the Galactic North (thats over by Bastion) utilizing primarily salvaged and stolen ships, as compared to the more standardized ships of the main fleet. It would all culminate at the Battle of Sullust, which was a massive diversionary attack for the Battle of Endor.
There would of course be an former Jedi Padawan (cuz you kinda have to have one) but it would act more like the Rogue Squadron series, with the majority of the action taking place in Starfighters and on bigger ships.
Still may go back and actually write that.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
I did ask for the interview where he said that, so thanks. I wasn't aware of this interview, and like I said after what I said, I'd like the interview so I can be sure people just aren't reading into things.
I had already found it myself by this point, but thanks all the same.
Also, hey, look at this quote, also from the interview and from Mark Hamil: “I still haven’t accepted it completely, but it’s only a movie,” Hamill said. “I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset. And I came to really believe that Rian was the exact man that they needed for this job.”
I like to wonder exactly what MH meant by "...this job...".
- M
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
For all the people saying Mark Hamill "hated" what they did with Luke, it's literally the best on screen performance he's ever given.
So even if he wasn't into the character changes, he actually put more work in than when he was back in the day.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade Paladin
There's so much more they could do with it if they were willing to try, though! And not even particularly risky stuff!
Even if this era's a bust (which it may well be after this movie, since the Resistance is effectively destroyed and now a non-factor), there's tons of stuff they could do with the spin-off movies in the OT era.
Ah but there is so much they could do even with the sequel era. There is a whole galaxy out there, its just that these movies want to ignore that and doesn't bother talking about anything other than a handful of planets we already seen. We don't even know where the New Republic set up shop, what happened to the core worlds of the EU Canon (where those what got blown up by Starkiller base?), or what the FO controls.
The real problem is it sounds like they have hobbled the writers by essentially keeping them in the dark about the makeup of the entire galaxy of the sequel era off. Also most of the stories people want to know about are also off limits:
How did the FO order arise, what did Luke do after Ben Solo turned from the darkside, how did Leia and Han break up and go there separate ways? What is the origins of the resistance?
Essentially the writers are stuck with their own (very small) chunk of time and space with very little lee-way introduce new background elements. Of course its not going to be satisfying.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pendell
I reply to your link of a YouTube movie reviewer with... a link to a YouTube Movie Reviewer.
MovieBob's spoiler heavy review.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
For all the people saying Mark Hamill "hated" what they did with Luke, it's literally the best on screen performance he's ever given.
So even if he wasn't into the character changes, he actually put more work in than when he was back in the day.
I dont think he put more work. I just think experience in his craft is showing. He is just a plain better actor than he was then.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
I dont think he put more work. I just think experience in his craft is showing. He is just a plain better actor than he was then.
Plus he fit the role perfectly.
Hes JUST as upset what they did to luke IN character then out of character! :smallbiggrin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdm8rpv045U
Man he is almost in literal pain. He was nearly crying on the premiere.
So perfect I guess!
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Plus he fit the role perfectly.
Hes JUST as upset what they did to luke IN character then out of character! :smallbiggrin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdm8rpv045U
Man he is almost in literal pain. He was nearly crying on the premiere.
So perfect I guess!
Which is too bad. Because i feel
1- he was fantastic
2- Luke was fantastic.
Just like how Kylo Ren is a move away from the "Darth Vader" wannabes by being a literal "Darth Vader Wannabe" (and thus scores more interesting than Maul, Tyranus, Grievious, Scidious), Luke was a move away from the "reluctant superpowered mentor figure actively waiting to jump back into the fight".
He had his own fantastic arc during the movie. He has had the chance for one final growing moment, and one final awesome moment.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reddish Mage
So the RLM review makes several critical points worth pointing out.
Here is how they summarize all the ways this movie trolls (They used the term) the audience:
Its not the Snoke dying, Rey having no parents, or Luke being a curmudgeon, were necessarily bad [decisions], but the whole movie is a mess.
Moreover they say that this movie makes its hard to complain about TFA. Since TFA basically is ANH and this movie decides to go and do something different and its a mess.
Still, this movie can't really be new, because they are limited to the same Rebellion and TIE fighters and AT-ATs and that's all we know about the universe they are in.
They conclude that there will be a spherical super weapon in the next movie.
According to these critics: this is all Star Wars is ever going to be. Its always going to be some variation of a young Jedi leading a rebellion against some Empire-like entity with stormtroopers and TIE fighters. They may be trying to build off of are just movies.
Its like trying to create an expanded universe from the Back To The Future movies.
I certainly don't agree you can't do an expanded universe from the Star Wars franchise (it worked once, the second time around seems to be going smoothly), but I do know these movies really don't help that project.
Their exact sentiment was actually that it's hard to complain about this one because it's more of an auteur work as compared to TFA, which was run almost entirely by committee.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Funny that that interview's been posted, but a key bit is left out of Scowling Dragon's take:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hamill
So, uh, guess that kind of takes that away from you.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
So, uh, guess that kind of takes that away from you.
Eh he's under contract. Unless those were tears of near joy he had under the premiere (And swallows of joyous acceptance). Matt Groaning Once said he was tired of making the simpsons but came back the next day he was excited as ever.
Doesn't mean he wasn't.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
Funny that that interview's been posted, but a key bit is left out of Scowling Dragon's take:
So, uh, guess that kind of takes that away from you.
You do realize that Hamill is more or less contractually obligated to say that right? No star - with the exception of the probably insane Jared Leto on Suicide Squad - trashes their movie during pre-release or even post-release media pushes. It just is not done, because that's how you end up never working again. Stars who absolutely know better go out and do press for absolute garbage (like Suicide Squad) and then generally don't complain until it's safely well through its primary run. Mark Hamill is being careful and professional (everything about his relationship with this movie involves him being a consummate professional) at the end there, but the fact that he was willing to come forward at all and say 'I thought this was nuts' speaks loudly to just how strong his reservations were.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
Which is too bad. Because i feel
1- he was fantastic
2- Luke was fantastic.
Just like how Kylo Ren is a move away from the "Darth Vader" wannabes by being a literal "Darth Vader Wannabe" (and thus scores more interesting than Maul, Tyranus, Grievious, Scidious), Luke was a move away from the "reluctant superpowered mentor figure actively waiting to jump back into the fight".
He had his own fantastic arc during the movie. He has had the chance for one final growing moment, and one final awesome moment.
Grievous was so misused in Episode III. In the Novelizations hes actually brilliant and a credible threat, in the Cartoon (both versions) hes great, then in his comics hes an out and out Jedi slaughtering terror.
Tyranus was ok, but rather shallow as a character, much better in the novels.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
Funny that that interview's been posted, but a key bit is left out of Scowling Dragon's take:
So, uh, guess that kind of takes that away from you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
I did ask for the interview where he said that, so thanks. I wasn't aware of this interview, and like I said after what I said, I'd like the interview so I can be sure people just aren't reading into things.
I had already found it myself by this point, but thanks all the same.
Also, hey, look at this quote, also from the interview and from Mark Hamil: “I still haven’t accepted it completely, but it’s only a movie,” Hamill said. “I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset. And I came to really believe that Rian was the exact man that they needed for this job.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mordar
I like to wonder exactly what MH meant by "...this job...".
- M
To clarify: If "this job" is to (charitably) deconstruct the characters that have come before and burn down the fields so that something new may grow, all of his comments are in line and sync up with the idea that this, to MH, isn't what he wanted or expected and is not "his" Star Wars. For the same reasons, it seems, it is not "mine".
You know what I did like, though? Kylo Ren. Loved his first scene in TFA...liked his finish in TFA...and liked about 90% of what we saw of him in TLJ.
I think Rey is fine, if a little meh. So there's some hope for me that IX is 90% Ren and Rey. And frankly, with the military might the First Order has been presented as having...they have already won the galaxy...so the only way to save any light is to work the guy at the top.
You know...that kind of casts a new light on TFA for me. Only 2 things in TFA mattered in the galactic sense. Starkiller did its real job (wipe out the Republic and any ability for an organized response), and Ren solidified his path. All the rest is window dressing.
- M
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Mechalich, you think he's contractually obligated to be positive about the character's portrayal, but that same contractual obligation would allow him to reveal that for reals he hates it?
Seriously?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaintRidley
Mechalich, you think he's contractually obligated to be positive about the character's portrayal, but that same contractual obligation would allow him to reveal that for reals he hates it?
Seriously?
I think it was carefully worded to not poop where he eats...and I think any time an actor or director does the "Yeah, but..." dance in response to questions about the new project there's reason to think they didn't care for the product.
I am not Mechalich, and it did not approve this message.
- M
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mordar
To clarify: If "this job" is to (charitably) deconstruct the characters that have come before and burn down the fields so that something new may grow, all of his comments are in line and sync up with the idea that this, to MH, isn't what he wanted or expected and is not "his" Star Wars. For the same reasons, it seems, it is not "mine".
I have to question who it's for then? I mean, if it's not for the people who grew up with it or the people who bought the books about characters who got trashed(and I don't mean NJO, I mean people who bought Phasma this year and watched her get trashed twice despite promises otherwise), then who's it for? Some nebulous future generation who's first exposure to Star Wars is sloth milk?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jayngfet
I have to question who it's for then? I mean, if it's not for the people who grew up with it or the people who bought the books about characters who got trashed(and I don't mean NJO, I mean people who bought Phasma this year and watched her get trashed twice despite promises otherwise), then who's it for? Some nebulous future generation who's first exposure to Star Wars is sloth milk?
For the franchise's filmmakers and Disney shareholders? It has the advantage of un-fettering all future films from the Luke-Han-Leia paradigm, undoes all the "lore" restrictions or obstacles, and even gives room to ignore any Empire-Rebellion (FO-Resistance) models. By destroying all of those things it allows future films to be free from the burden of established roles, rules and expectations.
I think, if true, it banks on the short attention span of movie-goers and the continual cycle of new audiences to keep butts in the seats. And the butts will be there. At this point I'd be tempted to say that adjusted revenues will slow or lessen, but the franchise will still be eminently profitable.
I'm not suggesting Lucasfilms in the past was some altruistic group...but I think they banked on consistency and a serial format to make them their money, kind of like the Nintendo Mario franchise (Mario and his pals/enemies remain pretty constant, but the games themselves evolve). The combination of TFA, Rogue One and TLJ suggests perhaps a different strategy...rely on the name on the box to do the heavy lifting and put whatever you like on the inside (sort of a Lego strategy, if you will).
I don't necessarily think this is the case...but TLJ could be the heavy lift in uncoupling Disney SW from its roots and be the first big steps in wiping the last of Lucas' fingerprints from the product.
- M
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
If Hamill didn't like his character, that's certainly unfortunate but also kind of irrelevant. An actor is a medium to bring the director's/writers' character to life. How they feel about it personally shouldn't affect how they do their job, which is acting under the director's direction. And whether or not Hamill liked the character or not, he has my respect for behaving like a professional and giving, in my opinion, a superb performance.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cizak
If Hamill didn't like his character, that's certainly unfortunate but also kind of irrelevant. An actor is a medium to bring the director's/writers' character to life. How they feel about it personally shouldn't affect how they do their job, which is acting under the director's direction. And whether or not Hamill liked the character or not, he has my respect for behaving like a professional and giving, in my opinion, a superb performance.
In large part I agree. But I think there's something to be said for the role of the director/writer in an established franchise or series as well. The writer/director is the medium for advancing the franchise or the series, not necessarily to advance their own agenda. How they personally feel about the established franchise shouldn't color how they do their job either.
Basically if you want to make your movie a commentary or deconstruction of an established model...make your own movie, not one branded as part of that model.
Clearly Disney disagrees on this point this time.
- M
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
-D-
Luke - I generally believed Luke became a hermit. It doesn't make much sense based on his old idealistic character, but otoh, there is precedent in Joda and other Jedis.
Luke's idealism was broken by his failure. He blamed it on the nature of the Jedi and rather than trying to recover he retreated to let it die.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Next movie we jump ahead 30 years with Ray as an old woman living her days out as a hermit in a planet because she failed to teach better students.
If they can do it once they can have it happen again.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mordar
In large part I agree. But I think there's something to be said for the role of the director/writer in an established franchise or series as well. The writer/director is the medium for advancing the franchise or the series, not necessarily to advance their own agenda. How they personally feel about the established franchise shouldn't color how they do their job either.
Basically if you want to make your movie a commentary or deconstruction of an established model...make your own movie, not one branded as part of that model.
Clearly Disney disagrees on this point this time.
- M
A valid point, and the way the new movies switch directors certainly makes the issue a bit more complicated. But I feel like the director/writer is still the one who gets to make "their" movie, and they if anyone are allowed to let their personal feelings about the work shine through. Art is born from its creators' feelings, after all, so it shouldn't be completely absent from the final product.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
one thing I've been finding strange is everyone's reaction online to Leia being spaced and coming back. People don't immediatly die in a vaccum You can survive for up to 90 seconds, though you usually pass out after 15
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cizak
If Hamill didn't like his character, that's certainly unfortunate but also kind of irrelevant. An actor is a medium to bring the director's/writers' character to life. How they feel about it personally shouldn't affect how they do their job, which is acting under the director's direction. And whether or not Hamill liked the character or not, he has my respect for behaving like a professional and giving, in my opinion, a superb performance.
Eh. When it comes to people who understand the character at a substantially deeper level than that of movie goer, I think you're basically down to the the writer, director and actor. In this case the character is established, and the actor's work on the project predates the writer/director substantially. It doesn't seem unreasonable to say that Hamill probably understands Luke better than Johnson, having, you know, literally embodied him for four prior movies. Johnson wrote one movie about him. There's quite a few authors and god knows how many fan fic writers who have done more than that.
Mind, I rather liked Luke in the new movie - even if he didn't read as exactly in keeping with the character in the OT, who would drop everything to go help his friends. If nothing else, the idea of killing off the Jedi was at least interesting. I never went down the rabbit hole of disliking them enormously that some people seem to, but hey, cool idea. Pity they clearly walked that one back at the end.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Of all the problems with the movie (and there are many), Mark Hamill's acting was not one of them.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade Paladin
Of all the problems with the movie (and there are many), Mark Hamill's acting was not one of them.
If that was addressed at me, I hope I did not give that impression. Mark Hamill did an excellent job, as did pretty much all the rest of the cast. One of the definite strengths of the Disney Star Wars is that the acting is usually quite good.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
warty goblin
If that was addressed at me, I hope I did not give that impression. Mark Hamill did an excellent job, as did pretty much all the rest of the cast. One of the definite strengths of the Disney Star Wars is that the acting is usually quite good.
No, we were posting at the same time; I was agreeing with the general sentiment above. You're good. :smallsmile:
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blackhawk748
Grievous was so misused in Episode III. In the Novelizations hes actually brilliant and a credible threat, in the Cartoon (both versions) hes great, then in his comics hes an out and out Jedi slaughtering terror.
Tyranus was ok, but rather shallow as a character, much better in the novels.
All of these characters, even Maul, was better in the Animated Series/Books. But that does not mean they are absolutely boring as villains. Their failure was the same: trying to get an imposing intimidating presence as a villain. Vader 2.0
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I can understand not liking how Luke was portrayed, thats fine, its a personal opinion. Im seriously confused as to how people think its such an impossible turn though. We saw Luke portrayed for 4 years of his life, 19-23 in the original trilogy. 34 year have passed since then. I can personally think of people in real life who've changed far more in terms of world view in less time than that, forget the fact that they werent fighting in a war just prior. Consider people who find religion or people who completely swing in terms of the political spectrum. And theres no mystical prophetic forces that actually exist in the real world to help them along. Luke's change in personality seems perfectly plausible, despite his actions in the previous trilogy. More than 8 times more year have passed since the Battle of Yavin compared to all the canon time we've seen with Luke prior to Episode VII!
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chen
I can understand not liking how Luke was portrayed, thats fine, its a personal opinion. Im seriously confused as to how people think its such an impossible turn though.
Because its not possible or impossible it pretty much makes episodes 4-6 invalid in like 12 different ways.
Honestly if Luke decided to run away and join the circus they could say it happend as well.
Lia could be a Cabaret Dancer and Han could have settled down and invested in high yield ore brokering with a diversified protfolio in Space Potatoes.
Its technically "Possible" to have absolutely ANYTHING happen. The question is why, not how.
And the why is "because we wanted to do a safe reboot without calling it that".
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
All of these characters, even Maul, was better in the Animated Series/Books. But that does not mean they are absolutely boring as villains. Their failure was the same: trying to get an imposing intimidating presence as a villain. Vader 2.0
Maul i'll give you, as hes the silent brooding guy. Grievous i'll argue against as hes supposed to be a tactical mastermind over a straight up physical threat (they failed miserably at this), and Tyranus is completely different from Vader. Hes far more refined and less needlessly cruel, hes just a shallow as hell villain.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Devonix
one thing I've been finding strange is everyone's reaction online to Leia being spaced and coming back. People don't immediatly die in a vaccum You can survive for up to 90 seconds, though you usually pass out after 15
Even if that scene isn't backed up by science I just think it was so beautifully shot that I can suspend my disbelief enough to go "yeah, Force".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chen
I can understand not liking how Luke was portrayed, thats fine, its a personal opinion. Im seriously confused as to how people think its such an impossible turn though. We saw Luke portrayed for 4 years of his life, 19-23 in the original trilogy. 34 year have passed since then. I can personally think of people in real life who've changed far more in terms of world view in less time than that, forget the fact that they werent fighting in a war just prior. Consider people who find religion or people who completely swing in terms of the political spectrum. And theres no mystical prophetic forces that actually exist in the real world to help them along. Luke's change in personality seems perfectly plausible, despite his actions in the previous trilogy. More than 8 times more year have passed since the Battle of Yavin compared to all the canon time we've seen with Luke prior to Episode VII!
Agreed. I'm really happy they chose to not make Luke the stoic jedi master war hero who reached the apex of his characterization back in VI. The original trilogy gave him an arc to complete and he did it. Now he needed a new arc to remain interesting, and I think it flowed smoothly enough from his previous characterization.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cizak
Even if that scene isn't backed up by science I just think it was so beautifully shot that I can suspend my disbelief enough to go "yeah, Force".
I didn't find it beautiful I found it ridiculous. When I saw that scene I literally burst out laughing.
Its overdone. Its rediculous, and it is the part when the movie declares "FORCE WHATEVER".
Force whatever should not be instant plot glue.
Its just a Man of Steel shot. Its overdone, and its too flowy for something that silly.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
I didn't find it beautiful I found it ridiculous. When I saw that scene I literally burst out laughing.
Its overdone. Its rediculous, and it is the part when the movie declares "FORCE WHATEVER".
Force whatever should not be instant plot glue.
Its just a Man of Steel shot. Its overdone, and its too flowy for something that silly.
Me and my friend squeezed each other's hand and gasped in unison. That soft, whispering gasp that's not a shortness of breath but just pure emotion and wonder. It was totally unexpected, but such a dignifying shot for one of the best characters. A movie that elicits that reaction from me has earned its right to use "magic" as its explanation.
Luke's astral projection, though while evoking a different emotional reaction, earned them the right a second time.
...and, I mean, I totally go into any Star Wars movie expecting "magic" to be a major factor, as I do with all science fantasy movies. Especially one that is so strongly built around it's brand of magic as Star Wars. But still; breathtaking scenes gets brownie points.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cizak
Me and my friend squeezed each other's hand and gasped in unison. That soft, whispering gasp that's not a shortness of breath but just pure emotion and wonder. It was totally unexpected, but such a dignifying shot for one of the best characters. A movie that elicits that reaction from me has earned its right to use "magic" as its explanation.
Luke's astral projection, though while evoking a different emotional reaction, earned them the right a second time.
...and, I mean, I totally go into any Star Wars movie expecting "magic" to be a major factor, as I do with all science fantasy movies. Especially one that is so strongly built around it's brand of magic as Star Wars. But still; breathtaking scenes gets brownie points.
I raised an eyebrow and went "Really?" I mean, similar stuff has been done in the EU, but it was less "Fly through space" and more "Go into a trance to survive till pickup"
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Cizak
Me and my friend squeezed each other's hand and gasped in unison.
Well good for you man. :smallwink:
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A movie that elicits that reaction from me has earned its right to use "magic" as its explanation.
However that isn't.
You might as well say "Well its not a problem because I like it."
How about doing BOTH? Making sense (Or at least being setup), just in case the pure elation of it doesn't shut your brain off.
You can say "Well it didn't bother me because I found it touching".
But you can't say "Its not setup and playing fast and loose because I found it touching".
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
You might as well say "Well its not a problem because I like it."
You disliking it doesn't make it a problem either.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
The issue with Leia's 'superman' (and this is already a meme) moment is that while some people find it touching, others find it ridiculous, and it is entirely unnecessary.
The plot demands Leia be put out of commission temporarily (and Admiral Ackbar die) so that the previously unknown character of Holdo can be elevated to command. Ergo - shoot the bridge. So far so good. However, instead of blowing Leia down the hall and giving her a concussion - which would be similar to the explosion in the hangar that blew Poe down the hall and is a perfectly conventional shot that everyone in the audience accepts - they blow her out into space. Being in vacuum is quite deadly in a fairly rapid fashion so she then has to get out of space immediately. There's nowhere near enough time send a rescue party in a space suit or to dispatch a droid to bring her back. That leaves us with her using the Force in a dramatic fashion to fly back to the ship.
And...
And nothing. The scene demonstrates that Leia's control over the Force is far greater than anyone thought, certainly more than anything she'd demonstrated previously in any of the other films, but she never uses the Force again in the film (I've seen some comment to the effect that she forced pushes the bridge door before stunning Poe, but that could easily have been a breaching charge), and we know she's not going to be in the next film because, um, Carrie Fisher's dead. So why did you need to insert this absurd dramatic moment when it holds no later payoff?
The superman scene would make sense if, later in the film Leia did something obvious with the Force. For instance if she had cloaked or shielded her transport someone to protect it from being destroyed by bombardment. Instead it is yet another scene in TLJ that sets up a cool possibility only to snatch it away later.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
The New Bruceski
You disliking it doesn't make it a problem either.
I actually really liked that scene, Like I said: Made me laugh allot. The movie would be utterly miserable to me without it.
I have problems with it on a narrative and consistency way, however. And it does not bode well for the future of the franchise.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
TLJ definitely wasn't perfect, but overall I liked it better than TFA. TFA felt too derivative of ANH, and that took away some of the enjoyment for me. While TLJ definitely contained some homages to ESB, there were also enough differences to make it feel original.
Stuff I liked:
- Rey's parents being nobody important. It was completely contrary to my expectations and those of most people I know. It also fit in well with the message that you don't have to be from one of a few select families to wield Force power. You don't have to be the child of a princess or senator or Jedi Master/Sith Lord.
- Mark Hamill's acting. Especially if he really did disagree strongly with the direction they took his character in. You'd never know it from his performance, and that speaks to an admirable degree of professionalism.
- The silent shot of the Supremacy and other Star Destroyers being blasted apart by the light-speed ramming.
- The fight scene in the throne room.
- Luke's force projection at the end.
- The aesthetics of the salt planet.
Stuff that was okay but could have been done better:
- I have zero problem with Leia being shown to overtly use the Force, but the way that scene was shot felt really cheesy.
- I liked the Canto Bight sequence by itself. The visuals were great. The action of Finn and Rose escaping and freeing the "racehorses" was great. In addition to giving insight into both the setting and an important secondary character, Rose's backstory maybe suggests a bit of how the FO was able to grow so fast. (You can build ships a lot faster by strip-mining entire worlds than by responsibly and sustainably extracting limited amounts of resources.) However, having several characters go off to another star system during what's supposed to be a very tense and time-pressured chase felt odd, pacing-wise.
- I don't have a huge issue with Luke's arc, but I feel like maybe he could have been a bit more concrete when talking to Rey (and thus the audience) about the incident and why he felt the need to completely cut himself off from the Force. Was that one fleeting thought of his the Dark Side reaching out to him, and he feared that a day would come when he could no longer brush it aside after 0.05 milliseconds? Was he afraid that Snoke/the Dark Side was reaching out to Ben because Luke was nearby and it wanted to make him fall, so he had to separate himself from other people for their own safety? Was he appalled that the consequences of even such a momentary lapse were devastating, and that make him think he had to become absolutely perfect to be "safe"?
- Poe learning that flashy, overt heroics aren't the only way to be a hero was fine. But it could have been done without handing Vice-Admiral Holdo an idiot ball the size of Coruscant. Her dressing-down of Poe really did make it look like she had a personal grudge against him, and as someone else pointed out, in a situation that dire, you need to let people know you have a plan so morale doesn't go down the tubes. She didn't have to tell him what the plan was, but she should have made it clear that one existed.
Things I didn't like at all:
- The complete lack of background/origin for Snoke.
- Underutilization of Captain Phasma. (Unless this was caused by restrictions in Gwendoline Christie's schedule due to GOT filming, but I haven't heard anything to indicate that.)
- The movie felt too long. I think TLJ should have ended with the protagonists landing on the salt planet, with the battle there being saved for Episode IX. Though that would mean having to wait longer for a couple of the things about TLJ that I really liked...
Things I'm reserving judgment on:
- I really don't see a plausible way for the Resistance to win against the FO with their manpower and materiel depleted so badly. Episode IX may or may not explain this plausibly. I'm guessing a timeskip will be involved somehow. Either that or infighting between FO people loyal to Hux and those loyal to (or at least afraid of being Force-choked by) Kylo seriously weakens the FO.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I'm a bit surprised how flat the humor in this movie falls. I'm almost not sure if that's because of the director or if a committee forced it in. Johnson can be funny, Brick is slyly amusing. But God, the MCU style a joke to deflate every other dramatic scene is just...ugh. If Disney's corporate hegemony over the entertainment industry keeps bleeding everything into this, I think I'll have an aneurysm.
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
Next movie we jump ahead 30 years with Ray as an old woman living her days out as a hermit in a planet because she failed to teach better students.
If they can do it once they can have it happen again.
Pfft, no. Disney taking their star and turning her into an elderly woman for the next space swashbuckler? Corporate is going to be much more conservative after this film. I also don't think they like time skips, given the lack of one with this film or Rogue One.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Legato Endless
Pfft, no. Disney taking their star and turning her into an elderly woman for the next space swashbuckler?
The next one somebodu person in a wheelchair, so getting rid of rey will be vital to make the Next Person more important by comparison (The next Protagonist will use the force to fly and project energy blasts). :smallwink: . So then Rey will be an out of character misery guts talking about the futility of it all.
And then Yoda shows up as a force Ghost to mock her.
My point is how timeskips are a plot device to be used with care. Its akin to saying "And X died offscreen".
It can make anything happen whenever they want offscreen.
I actually DO think they will timeskip with the next one because there is absolutely nothing else left to do unless 13 people really is enough to destroy the first order in a manner of days and makes the whole conflict seem rediculously short.
So the republic would fall and rise again in like 2 weeks?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Legato Endless
I also don't think they like time skips, given the lack of one with this film or Rogue One.
.... You didn't notice the huge time skip in Rogue One? The ~ten year one? Right at the beginning?
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
.... You didn't notice the huge time skip in Rogue One? The ~ten year one? Right at the beginning?
I was referring to how Rogue One broke the pattern of time skips between films and ends right before A New Hope, to the point of a painfully drown out final shot of CGI Leia and a cringe worthy title drop. This is also the second time we've had this exchange.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Legato Endless
I also don't think they like time skips, given the lack of one with this film or Rogue One.
There is one during Rogue One we see Jyn Erso's as a child and as an adult. The idea of the next movie starting where TLJ leaves off seems a bit silly. The resistance has just escaped and explicitly are going to work to rebuild, that suggests several years of work before they are ready to do anything big and potentially First Order-destroying.
Of course, the only thing preventing Rey, Finn, Poe, Rose from going right up and deciding to slap down Kylo, other than the odds being against them, is the fact that, if TLJ had a point, its don't do reckless heroic potentially-sacrificial moves you don't have to.
Spoiler: Episode IX Speculation
Show
I predict there will be a time-skip, Rey already established as something like a Jedi, perhaps construct her own Maul-style staff-saber, have already established a rapport with ghost Luke. She might have some sort of journey to Force-active sight at one point to orient us.
I think the collective groan of a plot surrounding Kylo constructing another Super-Weapon that will destroy the Resistance, might deter Disney from allowing that sort of thing.
Similarly groan inducing is another attempt at turning Kylo good, although this is consistent with Luke's approach to deal with things. Kylo refuses to be a proper villain and the heroes have refused to treat him as irredeemable.
Episode IX was supposedly going to feature Leia as a central character, Carrie Fischer's death means that will not happen and Leia will be dead. If they refuse to CGI her (which is what Disney has said) she has to be already dead in the opening and that has to happen off-screen.
Given everything that happened, with the resistance being worn down to a dozen members and only one obvious leader type predict Poe is now the general in charge of the Resistance.
My final prediction, given everything they are doing with the Force, it would not inconsistent if Rey ALREADY has a neo-Jedi following, and they all have cool Force powers like we haven't seen in the OT too.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Legato Endless
I was referring to how Rogue One broke the pattern of time skips between films and ends right before A New Hope, to the point of a painfully drown out final shot of CGI Leia and a cringe worthy title drop. This is also the second time we've had this exchange.
Is it? No joke, i have a horrible memory.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
Regarding Episode IX, I'm assuming that the ending is going to resemble the ending of ROTJ - the First Order will be far from defeated militarily but will have been crippled by a decapitating strike to the leadership that causes it to splinter into countless factions and allows the Rebels to gradually assert themselves and ultimately retake control of the galaxy (as in, what happened in the post-ROTJ timeline in the Legends EU).
This demands the death of General Hux and either Kylo's death or at least a partial redemption where he agrees to go off and do stuff other than trying to rule the galaxy with Rey or something. There are two central problems with this. First, Hux is a terrible character and it is a very heavy lift indeed to get him to the point where the audience will do anything other than laugh when he dies. Second, we need to produce a credible military event wherein the Rebels can win an obvious and strategic victory over the First Order that plausibly sets them on the path of success. In ROTJ that was the Death Star II, but not only has the ST already used that option in the form of Starkiller base, the First Order's position is sufficiently strong that they do not appear to need a superweapon.
First issue: elevating Hux to importance.
- Okay, the operative issue here is that the character of General Hux is unsalvageable. There's no taking the character and Domhnall Gleeson's acting and turning him into a plausibly Tarkin-style figure to provide the necessary pathos where killing him would feel like a victory. Instead, I think the approach is to go with the weak toady who serves as the figurehead that keeps the warring factions in check.
- For this purpose I think you need to bring back the Knights of Ren - TLJ completely dropped them as a thing, but they could easily have just been elsewhere in the galaxy during these events beating up on Resistance sympathizers. In fact, it should be that Snoke had them dispatched with fleets of their own to major trouble spots (Mon Calamari, Coruscant, Chandrila, Corellia, Ord Mantell, etc. and other worlds known to have been major Republic strongholds with a presence in the lore). That would explain why no one answered Leia's call for help and immediately provide the surviving rebels with a latent military to mobilize.
- So you have the Knights of Ren come to meet Kylo and Hux to confirm Kylo's elevation to the position of Supreme Leadership. Kylo does his wishy-washy conflicted routine and the Knights of Ren decide he's unfit, betray him, and drive him to run away in fear to find Rey and beg her for help. The Knights can't agree on who should be in charge, so they pick Hux. Bang, now we have a situation where we can kill Hux and at the same moment shatter the First Order into some number of remaining factions (promo art suggests there are six Knights of Ren, assuming a couple get killed a four way split works out just fine) that immediately turn their fleets on each other when this happens.
Second issue: Giving the Rebels a military victory
- At the end of TLJ the Rebels have no materiel at all. Zero, nothing. Boba Fett, by himself, would have them outgunned. However, we can assume there are people scattered throughout the galaxy who would support them against the First Order given some opportunity. If, as I suggested above, the Knights of Ren and large First Order fleets actively prevented these sympathizers from intervening, then the victory that is needed involves acquiring some major symbol of authority as a rallying point.
- The simple choice: retake Coruscant. We know that Coruscant was not the planet destroyed in TFA. It was also the galactic capital for thousands of years. It's symbolically important. The First Order presumably has some kind of throne or palace or something there (maybe they made a copy of the one Paplatine used to have that we've never actually seen). A throne that Hux, presumably, is sitting on. So the goal is to sneak in, assassinate Hux, gain control of the planetary defenses and obliterate whatever First Order fleet is in orbit, and proclaim the Republic Reborn.
- This is a mission that, critically, doesn't require any major military forces. It can be done as a commando raid and it's also a perfect place to utilize both Kylo Ren - who flees to Rey and knows a secret path into the palace that the Knights of Ren don't know about - and our codebreaker DJ - who Maz Kanata will have to shame into making good (because you don't put Benico del Toro into Star Wars if you aren't going to use him for something d*****).
- Finn kills Hux. Poe blows up something large and intimidating looking (BB-8 helps). Rey and Kylo each fight one or two of the Knights of Ren (and maybe more red guards). The First Order fleet fragments and fires on itself in a many-sided brawl, and then a massive Rebel fleet emerges from hyperspace to liberate Coruscant. And if we're really getting into fanservice I want Lando to lead it.
There, that's my pitch for Episode IX.
PS: Oh, and people care about romances in these things. Okay, ship Kylo and Rey, kill Rose and leave Finn to leadership in the Republic Reborn as wise and grizzled war hero (or do the reverse), and add an alien chick from Coruscant - a slum dweller who serves as a guide, think Mission Vao - for Poe to make doe-eyes at (we need at least one new character anyway and the ST has not had an alien in any major role)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I think the scene with Finn, Rose, the salt skimmers, and the doorbuster deal was really Rose's scene (well, she stole the scene?) and certainly Rose's lesson. I remember that her sister recently died in a desperate assault. This is a character moment for Rose. Not everything a character does in a movie is some kind of moral lesson for the audience or grand statement about the universe. Sometimes it's just trying to show that character's character. Rose is just trying to explain to Finn why she did that. Rose has learned something important to herself. That's all it needs to be. Well, that, and an opportunity to show Finn leaning over a dazed Rose to deliver his line, "Why would you stop me? I was so close." War really is messy.
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Originally Posted by
Devonix
one thing I've been finding strange is everyone's reaction online to Leia being spaced and coming back. People don't immediatly die in a vaccum You can survive for up to 90 seconds, though you usually pass out after 15
Considering Star Wars' own relationship with the physics of space, it's hardly any surprise that Star Wars fans don't understand it either.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Scowling Dragon
However that isn't.
You might as well say "Well its not a problem because I like it."
How about doing BOTH? Making sense (Or at least being setup), just in case the pure elation of it doesn't shut your brain off.
You can say "Well it didn't bother me because I found it touching".
But you can't say "Its not setup and playing fast and loose because I found it touching".
The other way around, actually. I like it because I don't find it to be a problem.
I think it makes enough sense and is setup enough in addition to being emotionally effective. As I've already mentioned, I give science fantasy a lot of leeway to use its version of magic to solve problems, and Star Wars has a strong setup for its magic. For the scene in question, Leia is an experienced war vetern and force sensitive, put her in a life threatening situation and I have no problem buying her being able to call upon the Force to save herself.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
I like that Luke died doing what he loved best as a farmboy. Staring into the sun.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
For all the people saying Mark Hamill "hated" what they did with Luke, it's literally the best on screen performance he's ever given.
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Originally Posted by
Cikomyr
I dont think he put more work. I just think experience in his craft is showing. He is just a plain better actor than he was then.
Yeah.. I can't say I remember many of his not-va performances but it's not a surprise he has improved by working another... What, 50 years? He was a hardly more than a kid back then.
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Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Luke Skywalker can make mistakes. Yoda can make mistake. Get over your hero worship.
This. That seems to me like a major issue people have. "this character would never do that!" putting aside the fact there are decades of personal experience in between, you have never seen Luke in any of these situations. Putting aside applying whatever your idea of a proper jedi is based on ??? he hardly had the training to be that, he didn't grow up a jedi, he learned a bit about the force from two to four people and the rest he had to figure out on his own.
And even Mr Hamill's opinion on what Luke would do is just that, his opinion. I know this sounds mean, but the actors don't get to write scripts. He's entitled to his opinion but just because it agrees with yours doesn't validate it more than any other singular person. And on the internet you can always find someone who agrees with you.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Kato
lI know this sounds mean, but the actors don't get to write scripts.
Nobody tell him about Carrie Fisher.
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Kato
I know this sounds mean, but the actors don't get to write scripts.
"George, you can type this ****, but you can't say it!" - Harrison Ford, during the filming of A New Hope, on why he wasn't precisely following the script. And didn't. And got Mr. Lucas Best Screenplay at the Oscars by so doing.
:smalltongue:
(Mark Hamill is also rumored to have complained to Lucas that "people don't talk like this," at the time, but unlike Ford's that's unconfirmed.)
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Re: The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait
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Originally Posted by
Devonix
one thing I've been finding strange is everyone's reaction online to Leia being spaced and coming back. People don't immediatly die in a vaccum You can survive for up to 90 seconds, though you usually pass out after 15
I don't think people are concerned that Leia's fluids didn't evacuate her body and boil off. For my part, I was actually enjoying the scene up until she started moving toward the ship. I liked seeing her hands/fingers twitch in line with the sound effects, and I was anticipating seeing Leia use the Force. I was also unsure what was going to happen, since Leia was expected to die in this movie given Carrie Fisher's death. But once she starts glowing and gliding through space, it just becomes goofy looking and cringey. And, after all things and like everything else that occurs in the movie, incredibly pointless.
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Originally Posted by warty goblin
Eh. When it comes to people who understand the character at a substantially deeper level than that of movie goer, I think you're basically down to the the writer, director and actor. In this case the character is established, and the actor's work on the project predates the writer/director substantially. It doesn't seem unreasonable to say that Hamill probably understands Luke better than Johnson, having, you know, literally embodied him for four prior movies. Johnson wrote one movie about him. There's quite a few authors and god knows how many fan fic writers who have done more than that.
QFT. It's not that Mark Hamill saying this makes anyone right and anyone else wrong. It's that it demonstrates that this reaction to his character shouldn't be a surprise. If the man that portrays the character is saying "I'm so surprised how you see the character" and "I fundamentally disagree with every choice you've made for Luke" and "I like every character in this movie except mine", well, obviously there's a rift between visions. And if you don't anticipate that the fanbase's vision of Luke will be more in line with Mark Hamill's than with some writer/director charged with tearing everything down, I don't know what to tell you.
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Originally Posted by Kato
This. That seems to me like a major issue people have.
To be clear, no one has a problem with Luke or Yoda making mistakes.
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"this character would never do that!" putting aside the fact there are decades of personal experience in between, you have never seen Luke in any of these situations. Putting aside applying whatever your idea of a proper jedi is based on ??? he hardly had the training to be that, he didn't grow up a jedi, he learned a bit about the force from two to four people and the rest he had to figure out on his own.
And he did figure it out on his own and he succeeded where the previous "jedi" had failed. When you hear Mark Hamill describing the jedi, he says they are tenacious and never give up and don't go off to be hermits on distant planets. You'll notice that this doesn't fit with Obi-wan or Yoda at all but it does fit with the character of Luke, who is tenacious and doesn't give up and goes into action to save the galaxy.
At the end of the day, it's just a matter of people having different opinions on who Luke is.
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And even Mr Hamill's opinion on what Luke would do is just that, his opinion. I know this sounds mean, but the actors don't get to write scripts. He's entitled to his opinion but just because it agrees with yours doesn't validate it more than any other singular person.
It helps to shed light on what's going on. I know it's easy to simply dismiss an entire half of the audience that didn't like this movie as "whiny" and "fanbois", but if you care to try to understand why they didn't like the characterization, listening to what the actor that plays that character says might help.
If Han had shown up in TFA and yelled at Leia for leading the Resistance against their fallen son Ben Solo, and he gut-punches her in the stomach and kicks her onto her side while she's doubled over in pain, I'd wager that no amount of in-movie explanation would justify that characterization of him to most people.
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And on the internet you can always find someone who agrees with you.
Thank you for this PSA.