I'd say that Zagyg is the most iconic
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He's one of the more well known bad guys in Greyhawk, and is the son of Grazz't and Iggwilv. He had his own 2E module (Iuz the Evil), and was a major antagonist in The Temple of Elemental Evil saga. He is known to be one of St Cuthbert's major enemies.
Some more reading here: https://greyhawk.fandom.com/wiki/Iuz...mall%20kingdom.
Spoiler: From the LG Deities PDFQuote:
Description: luz (EYE-ooze) is thought to be the cambion (half-fiend) son of the demon lord Graz'zt and the powerful wizard Igglwilv. Appearing on Oerth as a shriveled old man or as a huge, demonic-looking being, luz has many fiendish allies and impersonates other gods to fool mortals and increase his territory. He remains a great threat to the balance despite setbacks since the Greyhawk Wars. His symbol is a grinning skull, and he holds a particular hatred for Zagyg, Vecna, St. Cuthbert, and Greyhawk. "The weak must be exploited, tortured, and stripped of hope. The strong must be constantly wary of betrayal by their underlings. Pain is power, and inflicting pain demonstrates power best. Crush those beneath you. luz must be obeyed, and those who defy him will know absolute pain." luz's clerics inflict cruelty and torture upon all who oppose them. luz tolerates no less than fanaticism and complete obedience. His clerics constantly try to outdo each other in their acts of cruelty and evil. They show their superiority over all other beings by hunting for trophies; rare finds such as unicorns or paladins are truly prized. The clerics create spells and magic items of terrible power and evil nature, and travel the world to commit acts of evil and search out luz's enemies, luz is served directly by the Boneheart - two tiers (Greater and Lesser) of six advisers each (clerics and wizards), and by the Boneshadow, six spies and evildoers who roam the world. Iuz builds grand temples to himself in his nation-state, but his churches elsewhere are small and secret. He maintains important sites for mass rituals, sacrifices, and other ill deeds in forbidding wilderness terrain far from the eyes of good.
He is also one of the few gods physically present on the Prime Plane where he rules the country that bears his name on Oerth.
In the Greyhawk Wars series of events (2nd Ed) the area more-or-less under his control expanded somewhat.
In canon no one refers to him as "Iuz", instead he is "the old one" or "the wicked one" as saying his name runs the risk of attracting his attention* (he's not exactly "popular" even in his own country).
Spoiler: * Living Greyhawk exampleApparently there was one big event where lots of tables playing at different levels at a convention all simultaneously received missions inside Dorakaa (his capitol) and everything proceeded very nervously until a player on one table let the word "Iuz" pass his lips. At that point it became a race to get out for every table present...
I was hoping there would be some examples other than dvati about how such a thing works on a metaphysical (I think I'm using the right word) level in the D&D world. I want to homebrew a race or template that's multiple bodies (I'll start with 2 for now) with one soul, but dvati don't work for me because they were made with mechanical balance in mind so they don't feel like a proper representation of the concept, at least to me. My homebrew version is intended to faithfully convert the fluff into mechanics, with balance being the last concern.
For one thing, the rules for what affects only one vs. what affects both seem arbitrary
For another thing, the text is contradictory on some pretty fundamental things. For example one paragraph states "Dvati twins share one mind" but the very next paragraph states that a pair of Dvati do not share preceptions and must take a full round action to discern their counterpart's mental state. Another pair of contradictory statememts first states "Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, (although only one must supply material components)" but then states "A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts".
Basically, the article itself can't seem to decide what the link between a pair of dvati is or means.
EDIT:
As an aside, here's some more specific dvati questions
If one dvati in a pair dies and then someone casts regenerate on the other one that's still alive, does it bring the first one back?
What about raise dead with one body dead and the other alive? Does it even do anything? And if it does does it cost a level?
If a dvati pair dies and you have just one of the bodies can you use raise dead on it, or are they considered incomplete unless you have both?
And how do they interact with spawn-creating undead?
Indeed - mind-affecting abilities strike at the psychic bond that bridges the two bodies and allows them to communicate telepathically. What happens to the mind within one body also influences the other body, because the mind itself is bridged into both bodies; conversely, since it is but one mind, it does not need to save twice against the same effect. Compare it to feeling around your own leg with your hand to try and locate where something is hurting you - your leg knows something is hurting in that vicinity, and has notified your mind, but while the general sense is enough to prompt you to act with your hand, it still needs to poke around to find the spot - you might also use your eyes to locate it. If I gave you an electric shock, meanwhile, your leg wouldn't stay calm while the rest of you gets zapped.
This is due to the terminology spillover. "Take the actions" is meant to indicate that the capacity to perform combat actions is "taken up" on the part of both twins, i.e. even though normally each could take a full-round action, when spellcasting there is no such split allocation. The twin, as noted, doesn't actually need to be doing anything for the purpose of spellcasting; rather, the twin has to be not doing anything that does not involve participating in the caster's activity. So, you could have the two of them doing the motions of the casting, and one resultant spell; or you could have one standing stock-still while the other casts on her own. It does not matter; what does matter is that any purposeful elective action on the part of the non-casting twin is not happening - no attacks, no translocation, no communicatory speech.Quote:
Another pair of contradictory statememts first states "Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, (although only one must supply material components)" but then states "A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts".
No. Each body lives or dies separately and does not constitute a part of the other body.Quote:
As an aside, here's some more specific dvati questions
If one dvati in a pair dies and then someone casts regenerate on the other one that's still alive, does it bring the first one back?
This is addressed in the book, actually - raise dead will restore the dead twin, costing the joint soul a level (affecting the raised twin and the living twin both).Quote:
What about raise dead with one body dead and the other alive? Does it even do anything? And if it does does it cost a level?
Each body is raised individually. If both are dead and you only raise one of them, the one you bring back will begin suffering the penalties of being an incomplete twin.Quote:
If a dvati pair dies and you have just one of the bodies can you use raise dead on it, or are they considered incomplete unless you have both?
The body that dies becomes undead, with all the attendant horrific consequences. If both bodies die as a result of the spawning effect, both rise as spawn. I would expect that dvati find the prospect of getting undead-spawned quite horrifying, as the living one will share a soul with a thing that is bound in a state of unlife and torment. The undead one is probably no better off; while the ability damage will not destroy it, if it possesses its living memory it is quite likely that the undead dvati will seek ritual self-destruction rather than exist in that maddening state.Quote:
And how do they interact with spawn-creating undead?
I’ve been on a Draeden/Planes/misc. spree for the past week or so, going through all of these threads :smallbiggrin:
Where do the Draedens currently reside? Not including the one in the Abyss and the ones in the Para-elemental Plane of Ice. Is it the Far Realm (or the absence thereof)?
Is Tharzidun a Draeden? He has plenty of Draeden-ish things in his portfolio, and wasn’t he imprisoned in either the Abyss or the Demiplane of Imprisonment?
Thanks in advance!
I do have a few question, Does Moradin have a wife and children? If so what are their names? :smile:
Even draedens have no use for the Far Realm. Other than the ones you mentioned, we do not know for certain... there is a demiplane known as Draedenden which is believed to contain larval draedens, though of course there has been very little exploration due to how ridiculously dangerous it is. The voids of Carceri are a likely place, as is the void of Gehenna. Draedens may sleep beneath Ocanthus, or the depths of Agathion, or some terrible reach of Limbo. Other para-elemental planes may also host draedens.
Nyet.Quote:
Is Tharzidun a Draeden?
The Demiplane of Imprisonment, yes.Quote:
wasn’t he imprisoned in either the Abyss or the Demiplane of Imprisonment?
Aye. Berronar Truesilver is the wife of Moradin. His status as the father of other dwarven deities is a bit nebulous, with dwarven cultures having differing beliefs about which, if any, of the others are his children.
You know, Larbek's questions on souls and animi are missing one:
What happens when an outsider or elemental becomes undead? Are they animated by an animus, do they "inherit" the donor's non-dual nature and just don't need a soul, or what?
What would happen to a captive illithid fed only on cow brains?
How, in general terms, is an Angel's outlook/personality/philosophy different to a human's?
The answer is implied by what Lords of Madness tells us about mind flayer biology.
Technically, a mind flayer is a parasite driving around the body of the ceremorphed humanoid. Mind flayers eat brains because they don't produce certain hormones and enzymes the host body still needs, but the parasite replacing the brain can't provide, and because they absorb psionic energy from them.
A cow most likely won't produce the exact bodily chemicals the humanoid body needs, and I don't think a cow's psionic potential is very high (but hey, what do I know? If camels make good mathematicians, maybe cows are great wilders...). All in all, it's better than nothing in an emergency, but in the long term the illithid will die.
Another little question on my part: We already know that the Divine Mind class is dreck that flies in the face of everything we know about psionics. Is the Ardent's fluff equally bad or is there something of worth there. My intuition says the first thing, but I would like a second opinion.
Don't know if this is the best place to ask this, but...
Did D&D invent the differentiation between Demons and Devils? In most folklore, they are interchangeable. I'm assuming D&D came up with the whole LE vs. CE type deal for these creatures?
How far back in D&D do Demons and Devils go? I know as far back as AD&D 1E, but earlier than that? And the Blood War was introduced in 2E, from memory?
Pretty sure the idea goes back to Milton's Paradise Lost, in which an Abyss of Chaos floats around Hell, in which live strange and ancient evil entities including Pale Night that predate the fall of the rebel angels. D&D probably first codified such entities as "Demons" though.Quote:
Did D&D invent the differentiation between Demons and Devils?
Demons first showed up in OD&D Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry, consisting of Type I through Type VI demons, Orcus, and Demogorgon. Devils didn't show up in statted form until 1e as far as I recall, but they were mentioned as being LE fiends in Gygax's article on alignment in Strategic Review #6, published three years and change before the 1e MM (February 1976 for the former, August 1979 for the latter).
Yep, in the Monstrous Compendium: Outer Planes Appendix.Quote:
And the Blood War was introduced in 2E, from memory?
For the most part, they do not; your conventional methods of undeath do not work on outsiders - I should point out that even those few templates which mention that they apply to "any corporeal creature" should not function on outsiders, and Savage Species told us that outsider and undead are mutually exclusive creature types.
Now, that being said, there are certain very specialized types of undead which arise from outsiders or elementals; the lichfiend, for instance, manipulates the traditional lich ritual to attain body-soul separation by migrating the soul to a phylactery and replacing it in the body with an animus, just as a normal lich does. This is a hard thing for a fiend to do, but it is possible; of course, it comes with attendant vulnerabilities; while the soul and the body are no longer one unit, the soul is now in a comparatively much weaker container, and progression of the soul in the way that fiends normally could (promotion) is stalled forever. Needless to say, this is not something a lot of fiends pursue. Some other forms of undeath may be possible with the corpse of a fiend (assuming it doesn't go through death throes that destroy it), which would involve an animus badly mimicking part of the soul's existence to reanimate the body. These are shoddy and dangerous things - see the visages, for instance, which wholly lack the characteristics of the original fiend but remain driven by its evil nature.
Elementals are more interesting, at least to my mind; they may appear as necromentals, where the elemental nature is essentially hijacked by an animus that pilots it about with no more intellect than a skeleton or zombie would have, or they may take the form of some specific kind of elemental undead, such as a dessicator. In both cases, the negative energy is mimicking something of the binding elemental nature that normally animates an elemental, but in the latter case the original elemental animus is trapped and tainted by the negative energy and unable to disperse, creating a tortured entity that just wants to be a true elemental being again but is incapable of restoring itself and as a result lashes out at its fellows.
Psionic starvation, cognitive failure, nerve damage, seizures, eventual death. The minimum Intelligence score required for an illithid to get everything it needs from a brain is 3. If some method is devised to supply them with the psychic energies needed for proper nutrition, the cow brain would handle the physiological nutritional requirements sufficiently.
The two are... pretty vastly different. The most general way I could position it is that to a human, one's own needs are always fairly primary; even when one is considering the needs of others, it may tie into a personal need. For angels, their own needs are always secondary. To put it more glibly, you know how you feel sick, tired, and hungry? Well, angels are sick of cruelty, tired of needless suffering, and hungry for justice.Quote:
How, in general terms, is an Angel's outlook/personality/philosophy different to a human's?
At a glance, seems kind of weak, but the general notion that they are making a psionic connection through the Astral Plane to some sort of major belief about the multiverse isn't terribly off base from what we know about belief and the Outer Planes. I think the book is going a bit overblown with all the "fundamental" and "transcendent" nonsense though.
Terrible book. :smallsigh:
Given the topicality, I'm sure you can appreciate there are things from a certain book that I am not supposed to talk about on the forums. I will simply say that in a certain book, there were terms translated in Greek that referred to particular beings. A later book starring Virgil echoed this with the native torture-dispensers and monsters of Hell being "demons" and some people of a formerly feathery persuasion being of the other kind.
Demons originated in OD&D. Asmodeus & friends showed up in AD&D in the Monster Manual.Quote:
How far back in D&D do Demons and Devils go? I know as far back as AD&D 1E, but earlier than that?
Correct.Quote:
And the Blood War was introduced in 2E, from memory?
While I remember from Fiendish Codex II that if you somehow happen to have two opposing alignment auras of equal measure coming from an entity of some form (ex. Pact Primeval) it causes a confusion effect; is there anything that would happen if you somehow had (an entity with) opposing alignment auras of non-equal measure? Or would the stronger of the two auras just cancel the other out?
Hello again, thanks for answering my previous questions, and now I have some new:
1) Are there any deities that reside\visit for a long time on a Outer Plane that is completely hostile to him\her? I, of course, mean opposite alignments, I know that Lloth and Tanar'ri hate each other. I also know that Loki can be found on two planes, but in both he is still feeling at home. What I mean, are there\have there ever been good deities residing permanently or at least for a centuries long time on Evil planes, in some kind of war camp, for the sake of trying to help those suffering unjustly (like who accidentally walked through the wrong portal) or wage a holy war against local evil deities or just evil outsiders? Or the other way around with evil deities living a long time on good Plane to torment\kidnap\whatever.
2) Are there any deities residing on Baator? Other planes usually have a few paragraphs describing Kingdoms of specific deities, but I don't remember this about Baator. Many LE deities live on Gehenna, but again, this isn't Baator.
3) I saw you discussed Dvati here. Do they make one or two petitioners upon death?
4) Have there been any cases of someone asking the Lady for something, not selfish, but for Sigil sake, and getting a reply? For example asking Her to protect everyone from something really horrid that could endanger the whole Sigil. I guess dabbuses can, but what of others?
5) How do people actually feel change from turning from a mortal to petitioner? Do they feel it at all? Is it something like "Goodbye, my loving great grandchildren, be good boys and girls... huh? Who am I? Where I am? Oh dear, what a beautiful mountain is over there!". Or the existing mind shuts down to a mathematical null, then a completely new entity appears?
6) Except Duke Darkwood and Nameless One, have there been any successful escapes from Mazes? If there were, what happened to those people after that? Can\would a Lady maze someone twice?
7) Have there been cases of some clueless berks trying to harm the Lady with any kind of weapon? I know that all of them failed, but curious if there are some interesting stories about attempts.
A few examples that may or may not fulfill your criteria: Gruumsh is a chaotic god on lawful Archeron. He's there because the war is there. Ares (chaotic evil) and Athena (lawful good) of the Olympian pantheon live with most of the rest of them in Olympia on Arborea (chaotic good). Thrym (chaotic evil) and Sutr (lawful evil) dwell on Ysgard, because of their war with the Nordish pantheon.
The most well known deities living in Baator are:Quote:
2) Are there any deities residing on Baator? Other planes usually have a few paragraphs describing Kingdoms of specific deities, but I don't remember this about Baator. Many LE deities live on Gehenna, but again, this isn't Baator.
- 1. Hell: Tiamat, goddess of evil dragons, and Kurtulmak, god of kobolds,
- 3. Hell: Hekate, Olympian goddess of magic (who has another realm in Hades), and Piscaethces, goddess of aboleths,
- 5. Hell: Sekolah, god of sahuagin, and Set, Pharaonic god of evil.
Also, on the 2. Hell there is supposed to be a "Street of Gods", where the realms of minor or failing lawful evil deites lie thightly packed, and the Maztican pantheon maintains one of its underworlds on the 6. Hell.
If I have to guess? One soul, one petitioner.Quote:
3) I saw you discussed Dvati here. Do they make one or two petitioners upon death?
Communication with the Lady usually involves the dabus as intermediates. If you truly know about a danger to all of Sigil that she didn't already know before, it would be easier and most likely faster to just inform a dabus.Quote:
4) Have there been any cases of someone asking the Lady for something, not selfish, but for Sigil sake, and getting a reply? For example asking Her to protect everyone from something really horrid that could endanger the whole Sigil. I guess dabbuses can, but what of others?
In Faces of Sigil (my favourite RPG book, bar none, really) there's a Gith named... uh... (checks book) Djhek'nlarr who sells maps of the Lady's mazes. The Harmonium has made it known that
a) These maps are all FAKE. Totally FAKE. Don't buy them.
b) Possessing one of these maps is a capital crime.
RUmour has it that she has some kind of ability that lets her track people when they are mazed.She tricks people into getting mazed, then tracks them down on the ethereal plane, enters their mazes and maps them out. (There's a few theories offered about how she does it. She seems to pickpocket people's personal possessions. Some also claim that for some reason, mazed people leave behind a silver cord, like astral travellers, that only she can see. And that she can follow her own silver cord back out of the mazes to Sigil.)
This being Planescape, it's not actually confirmed if she can do it. Also unknown why the Lady hasn't killed her.
That said, as far as I know, the Lady seems to see Mazing more as a warning than as a capital punishment. If you get out and sin again, you just die.
The stronger would prevail.
By your definition, no. There are good-aligned outsiders doing that (eladrins fighting a hopeless battle in the Abyss to protect a small community of eladrin children trapped there by Pale Night). For a god to go fighting other gods is generally referred to as suicide, and they do not like doing so in an open fashion. Generally, gods going off to do things themselves is bad juju.
Oh yes, quite a lot of them.Quote:
2) Are there any deities residing on Baator?
Avernus
• Bargrivyek, goblin deity of cooperation
• Kurtulmak, chief deity of the kobolds
• Takhisis, Krynnish deity of evil
• Tiamat, draconic deity of chromatic dragons
Dis
• Druaga, Babylonian deity of fiend summoning
Minauros
• Hecate, Greek goddess of magic
Phlegethos
• Inanna, Sumerian deity of love and war
Stygia
• Kriesha, Cerilian deity of cold
• Sekolah, chief deity of the sahuagin
• Set, Egyptian deity of storms and the desert
Those are some of the more notable ones, but of course there are others. By and large, the gods do not establish realms below the fifth hell, though the Maztican deities set up a shared realm on Maladomini.
One petitioner that manifests as two bodies.Quote:
3) I saw you discussed Dvati here. Do they make one or two petitioners upon death?
The Lady only communicates through the dabus. She is perfectly capable of understanding others, but that is how she expresses her will. In turn, as any direct exercise of her will tends to be... shall we say, immediate and horribly violent, asking her for something would still involve a dabus executing the actual request should she feel like honoring it.Quote:
4) Have there been any cases of someone asking the Lady for something, not selfish, but for Sigil sake, and getting a reply? For example asking Her to protect everyone from something really horrid that could endanger the whole Sigil. I guess dabbuses can, but what of others?
So essentially, apart from the PCs asking for aid in Die Vecna Die, no, and even then there were dabus on hand to sort things out.
We do not get a great deal of information about the transitional experience, but essentially a petitioner is the person they were in life, only their conscious memories of life are a pleasant hazy background to their current state of existence - you can remind them of events, people, etc. and they will recognize what you are talking about and even respond fairly appropriately, but a petitioner does not spend their first moments feeling the pang of loss. Now, if they went to a Lower Plane, their first few moments (which might also be their last few moments) may certainly be spent experiencing negative emotions for all new reasons...Quote:
5) How do people actually feel change from turning from a mortal to petitioner? Do they feel it at all? Is it something like "Goodbye, my loving great grandchildren, be good boys and girls... huh? Who am I? Where I am? Oh dear, what a beautiful mountain is over there!". Or the existing mind shuts down to a mathematical null, then a completely new entity appears?
See the response from Eldan. It is not a common thing, and most who have been mazed would have the sense not to return to Sigil if they ever got free. The Lady could maze someone twice, but generally if someone were to have been mazed, escaped the maze, and then decided the most clever thing to do was to return to her city and cross her a second time, I doubt she could be swayed to see any reason to let someone so transcendentally stupid continue to draw breath. Then again, you do never know what might amuse her.Quote:
6) Except Duke Darkwood and Nameless One, have there been any successful escapes from Mazes? If there were, what happened to those people after that? Can\would a Lady maze someone twice?
None recorded in any meaningful detail. People tried. People died. It is not an interesting topic.Quote:
7) Have there been cases of some clueless berks trying to harm the Lady with any kind of weapon? I know that all of them failed, but curious if there are some interesting stories about attempts.