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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
If this were CinemaSins, we'd be hearing "Convenient old fable I just remembered is detailed, accurate, and contains exactly the information needed to overcome this challenge *ding*" right about now.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eschmenk
Would "This is a helmet" actually work? In that case, "helmet" is a general term, unlike "Forgrim's backpack," which is a name for a specific item. If it "helmet" does work, then why not teach the demon the word, "something?"
I noticed that it only works with inanimate objects. I wonder if it would work if someone wrote "Minimax's brain inside" on Minimax's head. That's about the only way his brain could be considered a weapon.
That wouldn't protect his head, just his brain then. Unless you are saying someone should beat the creature to death with Minmax's brain which would kill Minmax but be hilarious.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
.... Its a helmet, what is there to like or dislike about it? Aside from this specific monster, and for the sentimental value it has (probably belonged to his dad) it has no special qualities. Its just a helmet with an odd label slapped onto it that were are finally learning about. I never really cared much either, figuring it was something as silly as minmax and his "I Am Great" belt buckle or whatever was on it.
... From a character-design perspective I've always found it a fairly unflattering/uninteresting design choice. MinMax's belt works perfectly for MinMax, but I've always found the helmet to seem kinda random.
Even the backstory honestly feels like it was decided on after the fact. It probably wasn't, but ..
Quote:
If this were CinemaSins, we'd be hearing "Convenient old fable I just remembered is detailed, accurate, and contains exactly the information needed to overcome this challenge *ding*" right about now.
This summarises my issue with it fairly well.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
I like it. I dig this concept for a monster--more of an old-school fairy tale concept than a D&D concept, since D&D doesn't do omni-powerful-beings-with-strange-extremely-exploitable-weakness so much. And of course it's kinda silly. But it's still fun to think about.
I didn't even mind everything getting delivered in a big exposition dump. Actually, maybe that's why I liked it, and the convenient-information-from-a-fable thing didn't bother me--this doesn't feel like a story. It's just a fun idea.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lethologica
If this were CinemaSins, we'd be hearing "Convenient old fable I just remembered is detailed, accurate, and contains exactly the information needed to overcome this challenge *ding*" right about now.
*inserts Tropes Are Tools link* :smallwink:
----
Really really liked this update, actually. Flowed from one panel to the next, and came up with a pretty cool idea for a monster as well.
I liked the last story, but this one is already leaps and bounds better.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Porthos
I have some sympathy for the obscure myth being the first thing a DM would use to paper over "Made his Knowledge check," I guess. But the way in which it's told is very...rote.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lethologica
I have some sympathy for the obscure myth being the first thing a DM would use to paper over "Made his Knowledge check," I guess. But the way in which it's told is very...rote.
*shrug*
What can I say? It worked for me. :smallsmile:
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Thunt comes up with pretty amazing stories and creatures, but it's true that often it's all explained in an info dump. Dies's arm, Ear's axe, things like that get intuitive knowledge injected into the character, which can make sense in some cases, but as it's also narrated to the reader, it can feel awkward.
However, the comic update slowly as it is. Explaining all those things through context, dialogue and events would make it considerably longer, so I understand the decision. It can lead to pretty clumsy or awkward-sounding pages, but it also gives the required information so the story can move on.
I think it might be a reflection of Thunt's experience as a GM. A lot of things, when explained as you're playing, can be pretty amazing (and it makes sense to give players the knowledge they need when they get a quest or something). I'm pretty sure if Thunt was telling the whole thing to us it would be riveting. The thing is that while he's able to talk and make things interesting with no issue that I've ever noticed, sometimes he seems to have trouble figuring out how to phrase things, which I can relate to but doesn't help.
On the story itself, I think it's pretty cool. I think it would have been awesome to see the fight happen and have the characters figure out why the backpack was invulnerable without it all being narrated, but oh well.
Actually, I'm thinking some of those stories would work well as short stories with illustrations here and there (which is basically what this page is, except dividing into panels).
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
/facepalm Really? Spoiler
Show
There just HAPPENED to be a massive pool of sticky mud capablke of covering every square inch of his armor BUT his helm?
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
/facepalm Really?
Spoiler
Show
There just HAPPENED to be a massive pool of sticky mud capablke of covering every square inch of his armor BUT his helm?
This is obviously the most unreasonable contrivance THunt has ever included in one of his fight scenes.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lissou
Thunt comes up with pretty amazing stories and creatures, but it's true that often it's all explained in an info dump. Dies's arm, Ear's axe, things like that get intuitive knowledge injected into the character, which can make sense in some cases, but as it's also narrated to the reader, it can feel awkward.
However, the comic update slowly as it is. Explaining all those things through context, dialogue and events would make it considerably longer, so I understand the decision. It can lead to pretty clumsy or awkward-sounding pages, but it also gives the required information so the story can move on.
I think it might be a reflection of Thunt's experience as a GM. A lot of things, when explained as you're playing, can be pretty amazing (and it makes sense to give players the knowledge they need when they get a quest or something). I'm pretty sure if Thunt was telling the whole thing to us it would be riveting. The thing is that while he's able to talk and make things interesting with no issue that I've ever noticed, sometimes he seems to have trouble figuring out how to phrase things, which I can relate to but doesn't help.
On the story itself, I think it's pretty cool. I think it would have been awesome to see the fight happen and have the characters figure out why the backpack was invulnerable without it all being narrated, but oh well.
Actually, I'm thinking some of those stories would work well as short stories with illustrations here and there (which is basically what this page is, except dividing into panels).
The way Thunt stops to describe items and legends reminds me of the anime 'Yu Yu Hakusho'. In it, whenever a legendary monster or rare item would appear (or if it was around for a while but a character suddenly realized what it was) the action would pause and focus on the item/person/thing and the narrator would go, "The legendary blah blah blah, forged for blah reasons in a ritual of blah and blah", then the action would just sort of pick back up where it left off.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Herpestidae
This is obviously the most unreasonable contrivance THunt has ever included in one of his fight scenes.
Im glad you agree. Oh, and fixed that for you, for some odd reason it was posted a strange color.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lissou
However, the comic update slowly as it is. Explaining all those things through context, dialogue and events would make it considerably longer, so I understand the decision. It can lead to pretty clumsy or awkward-sounding pages, but it also gives the required information so the story can move on.
Perhaps that's true for Thunt, but it wouldn't have to take longer if he had the skills. Thunt seems to concentrate on one or two things at a time and makes his pages (or sometimes sequences of pages) only about the one or two things he is concentrating on. (Also, often one of the things is something that's already been done to death, so it hardly counts.) That, in addition to the update schedule, is why things seem so slow.
Here's what's happened in the main story since it went back to Minimax and the goblin party:
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04292015/: A joke about finding a door and Minmax is a stupid tool.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/05062015/: Only one long unfunny joke.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/05132015/: Minimax and Fumbles bond while the others groan.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/05302015/: View of the first room and everyone is captured by ropes.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/06082015/: Minimax is an idiot (really?) and struggling doesn't work (big surprise!).
http://www.goblinscomic.org/06222015/: Thako has leveled enough to use his monk skills to free himself and the statues activate.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/07032015/: Thako is loosing to the statues.
Some pages are better than others, but many pages wind up being too much of whatever the page was about. I think the information dumps are just one example of that. Also, since the themes keep changing, readers get whiplash. I'm not saying that I could do any better than Thunt, but a more skilled writer could blend things better while using fewer pages.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
This mud thing is ridiculous.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
/facepalm Really?
Spoiler
Show
There just HAPPENED to be a massive pool of sticky mud capablke of covering every square inch of his armor BUT his helm?
Spoiler
Show
I think the idea is that the demon knocked him into the mud intentionally, so maybe the demon created the pool of mud or at least wouldn't have tried that ambush if the mud wasn't there? Yeah, it's still pretty bad, though.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eschmenk
Perhaps that's true for Thunt, but it wouldn't have to take longer if he had the skills. Thunt seems to concentrate on one or two things at a time and makes his pages (or sometimes sequences of pages) only about the one or two things he is concentrating on. (Also, often one of the things is something that's already been done to death, so it hardly counts.) That, in addition to the update schedule, is why things seem so slow.
Here's what's happened in the main story since it went back to Minimax and the goblin party:
http://www.goblinscomic.org/04292015/: A joke about finding a door and Minmax is a stupid tool.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/05062015/: Only one long unfunny joke.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/05132015/: Minimax and Fumbles bond while the others groan.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/05302015/: View of the first room and everyone is captured by ropes.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/06082015/: Minimax is an idiot (really?) and struggling doesn't work (big surprise!).
http://www.goblinscomic.org/06222015/: Thako has leveled enough to use his monk skills to free himself and the statues activate.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/07032015/: Thako is loosing to the statues.
Some pages are better than others, but many pages wind up being too much of whatever the page was about. I think the information dumps are just one example of that. Also, since the themes keep changing, readers get whiplash. I'm not saying that I could do any better than Thunt, but a more skilled writer could blend things better while using fewer pages.
I've never found thunt's pages to read particularly slow or feel lacking in content (though I hate his infodump pages), but simultaneously the issue isn't just page content, but page content x update rate.
Some comics manage to really deliver on making every single page count, even if they only update two or three times a week. I know that any comic with 3+ updates per week can usually get away with dull/low worth pages due to updating often enough to make 1-2 low content pages acceptable. (I think the prime example is will save world for gold for me, which updates 5 times a week. I find it incredibly difficult to get annoyed at meh pages when there's so many to begin with.)
Simultaneously ... I'm not entirely sure what Thunt's actual update rate is, but his regular story updates at tops .. 1 times a week? When a page essentially comes down to a silly joke/filler in a comic that's clearly meant to largely be about story ... that becomes annoying.
Heck even comics that update frequently can fall victim to horrid pacing issues, despite people generally reading DD out of spite/schadenfreude I remember many people getting fatigued during the "march through maltak" (or whatever) story arc cause each page was just so .. boring.
Not really sure what Thunt could do to fix the pacing issues though. I've never been in his stream so can't really judge what his drawing speed is like.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eschmenk
Spoiler
Show
I think the idea is that the demon knocked him into the mud intentionally, so maybe the demon created the pool of mud or at least wouldn't have tried that ambush if the mud wasn't there? Yeah, it's still pretty bad, though.
I agree with this, it was my thought as well.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
eschmenk
Spoiler
Show
I think the idea is that the demon knocked him into the mud intentionally, so maybe the demon created the pool of mud or at least wouldn't have tried that ambush if the mud wasn't there? Yeah, it's still pretty bad, though.
I dunno, I mean, how would the monster know his gear was labeled without seeing it and reading it? Does his weakness only last so long as he can read what an item is?
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Well it knows they have seen its weakness in action, that doesn't mean they know what it is but if they do labeling their stuff would be a likely action.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
I assume that puddle was there cause the DM is an awful person.
"I have labeled all my gear with names."
"okay ... the monster pushes you into a puddle of mud."
"What puddle?"
"should've checked the environment, your entire body is now covered in mud." :smallcool:
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Neoriceisgood
I assume that puddle was there cause the DM is an awful person.
"I have labeled all my gear with names."
"okay ... the monster pushes you into a puddle of mud."
"What puddle?"
"should've checked the environment, your entire body is now covered in mud." :smallcool:
But...none of this is the actions of a PC, only the backstory of a PC. The only control the DM has over it is saying if the backstory is okay or not and may offer suggestions to change it.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lizard Lord
But...none of this is the actions of a PC, only the backstory of a PC. The only control the DM has over it is saying if the backstory is okay or not and may offer suggestions to change it.
Oh I know, but it still feels like something an obnoxious DM would do. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Neoriceisgood
Oh I know, but it still feels like something an obnoxious DM would do. :smallbiggrin:
Especially the type of obnoxious dm who created what he thinks was an awesome monster only to see the players exploit the hell out of its (presumed) minor weakness.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
Especially the type of obnoxious dm who created what he thinks was an awesome monster only to see the players exploit the hell out of its (presumed) minor weakness.
Yeah, that's how I pictured it. :smalltongue:
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Typewriter
The way Thunt stops to describe items and legends reminds me of the anime 'Yu Yu Hakusho'. In it, whenever a legendary monster or rare item would appear (or if it was around for a while but a character suddenly realized what it was) the action would pause and focus on the item/person/thing and the narrator would go, "The legendary blah blah blah, forged for blah reasons in a ritual of blah and blah", then the action would just sort of pick back up where it left off.
That's common in a lot of anime adaptation of manga. For a couple reasons. First, the anime often caught up to the manga, or the people making the anime wanted to stretch an already finished series (that happens with western stuff too, see Harry Potter, Twilight or the Hobbit) so they made some stuff last a huge amount of time (often fights) and spend a large portion of the episode summing up the previous one, so that in some series you miss nothing by watching only each other episode.
Secondly, while in a written story you can easily pause the story to tell the reader something (and manga often does that) or have a box under a character explaining who they are, in anime, it turns into "the characters' thoughts" and it often gives a feel of "the character thought for 20 minutes and everyone waited for him to be done". I haven't seen Yu Yu Hakusho (I read the manga, but I was always more of a HxH fan) but I suspect it's not the worst implementation of that (some animes are infamous for it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Neoriceisgood
Not really sure what Thunt could do to fix the pacing issues though. I've never been in his stream so can't really judge what his drawing speed is like.
He used to broadcast something like 18+ hours a day, seven days a week, and was drawing the whole time, except from bathroom breaks and small food breaks. He still updated around once every 10 days at the time on average, I think. Maybe more often some of the time. Although it's when he sometimes updated more than one page at once, too.
Since then he's switched to a tablet and from what I understand it helps speed up some of the process. He also adapted his style to make it faster to draw (most notably the way he draws eyes, which used to be dot by dot, a super long process. Now I think he does the dot-thing only on part of the eyes and fills the red with solid black, instead of the solid black parts being made up of individual dots too). So I would say he's faster now, however he's also (wisely) decided to have a life outside of drawing and works a little bit less (so, not 18 hours a day, 7 days a week anymore).
I understand what you mean about comics that update less often having more packed pages. I think Thunt's pages are packed with visual information, but sometimes the action does go slowly. It's not something I really have a solution for, though.
I think he may be too invested in making the world full and complete and interesting. Looking at this page, for instance, the first panel could have read something much shorter, only stating something like "My mother carved labels on all his equipment", which would allow for a bigger picture showing that she had one leg (making it completely unnecessary to say it in the narration). Saying that she is skilled at metalwork doesn't seem super relevant, and could be shown by making her metalwork look good. The rest is meant to raise the stakes but a picture could have explained that better.
Heck, come to think of it, the picture is enough to show that the mother is carving. You could have young Durkon and his brother around her as she's carving, either looking tense or saying something that explains the gravity of the situation. If Durkon adressed his mom, we'd even know she was his mother, so we'd have all of the information. Then the second picture, of Durkon's father, doesn't need the narration at all. It's kind of obvious he's about to fight and is determined, etc.
I think a lot of the time with narration, Thunt is trying to explain things that readers could have guessed from the artwork. Then because the text takes so much room, he cuts off a lot of artwork, when the text takes more room than the artwork it's replacing.
This being said, those pages are all old, and Thunt's been progressing the whole time. I'm sure that there are things he doesn't like about the page, too.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Fograth's family should have all gotten forehead tattoos saying "This is a Dwarf" to commemorate the victory.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lissou
That's common in a lot of anime adaptation of manga. For a couple reasons. First, the anime often caught up to the manga, or the people making the anime wanted to stretch an already finished series (that happens with western stuff too, see Harry Potter, Twilight or the Hobbit) so they made some stuff last a huge amount of time (often fights) and spend a large portion of the episode summing up the previous one, so that in some series you miss nothing by watching only each other episode.
Secondly, while in a written story you can easily pause the story to tell the reader something (and manga often does that) or have a box under a character explaining who they are, in anime, it turns into "the characters' thoughts" and it often gives a feel of "the character thought for 20 minutes and everyone waited for him to be done". I haven't seen Yu Yu Hakusho (I read the manga, but I was always more of a HxH fan) but I suspect it's not the worst implementation of that (some animes are infamous for it).
He used to broadcast something like 18+ hours a day, seven days a week, and was drawing the whole time, except from bathroom breaks and small food breaks. He still updated around once every 10 days at the time on average, I think. Maybe more often some of the time. Although it's when he sometimes updated more than one page at once, too.
Since then he's switched to a tablet and from what I understand it helps speed up some of the process. He also adapted his style to make it faster to draw (most notably the way he draws eyes, which used to be dot by dot, a super long process. Now I think he does the dot-thing only on part of the eyes and fills the red with solid black, instead of the solid black parts being made up of individual dots too). So I would say he's faster now, however he's also (wisely) decided to have a life outside of drawing and works a little bit less (so, not 18 hours a day, 7 days a week anymore).
I understand what you mean about comics that update less often having more packed pages. I think Thunt's pages are packed with visual information, but sometimes the action does go slowly. It's not something I really have a solution for, though.
I think he may be too invested in making the world full and complete and interesting. Looking at this page, for instance, the first panel could have read something much shorter, only stating something like "My mother carved labels on all his equipment", which would allow for a bigger picture showing that she had one leg (making it completely unnecessary to say it in the narration). Saying that she is skilled at metalwork doesn't seem super relevant, and could be shown by making her metalwork look good. The rest is meant to raise the stakes but a picture could have explained that better.
Heck, come to think of it, the picture is enough to show that the mother is carving. You could have young Durkon and his brother around her as she's carving, either looking tense or saying something that explains the gravity of the situation. If Durkon adressed his mom, we'd even know she was his mother, so we'd have all of the information. Then the second picture, of Durkon's father, doesn't need the narration at all. It's kind of obvious he's about to fight and is determined, etc.
I think a lot of the time with narration, Thunt is trying to explain things that readers could have guessed from the artwork. Then because the text takes so much room, he cuts off a lot of artwork, when the text takes more room than the artwork it's replacing.
This being said, those pages are all old, and Thunt's been progressing the whole time. I'm sure that there are things he doesn't like about the page, too.
W-wait ... hold on.
He does all the eye dots manually?!
Why would someone do that to themselves............. !?
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Neoriceisgood
W-wait ... hold on.
He does all the eye dots manually?!
Why would someone do that to themselves............. !?
On a scale of one to Thunt, that's not a particularly high level of self-abuse...
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
Yeah, that's something like a 4 on the Thunt scale.
Which is still like an eleventy billion by any reasonable scale.
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Re: Goblins XV: Klik Here
There was that month he listened to Justin Bieber on headphones every waking moment. I forget why he did that. I hope not just to see what would happen. Sigh.