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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
I couldn't sleep and I felt like procrastinating my other projects... I've also been playing way too much Dawn of War 2... So I hashed out a 'Fun' minigame very quickly. I suspect there's probably already something very similar though in a WD somewhere.
Spoiler
Show
Warhammer 40k Variant rules, Xenos!
These rules are designed for use in a campaign emphasising fun and story over tournament values of fairness. Armies do not resupply automatically between battles so phyrric victories will very quickly kill your chances of overall victory.
-Assembling the team
Each player begins the campaign with a single Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy or Troop unit. They may take any combination of upgrades they wish, including Transports.
Imperial Guard may opt to take a Platoon of up to 3 units instead of a single unit.
Record the models taken, their equipment, profiles on a Team reference sheet, along with the total points value of your team.
-Super Elite
All models gain the benefit of the Independant Character special rule and may join or leave squads as they desire.
Squadrons of vehicles behave as seperate vehicles.
-All Down to You
The stakes of such a mission are so high that only the most tenacious and toughest see deployment. All infantry have twice as many wounds as normal but are still subject to Instant Death.
-Deployment and Objectives
Roll to determine who goes first. The player going second determines the mission objective randomly (see table) and deploys it.
The team with the smallest points value may take additional, temporary, units to equalise the two teams. Temporary models taken in this way receive only their normal allowance of wounds and do not count as Independant Characters. Only the maximums of the Force Organisation Chart apply, not the minimums.
The normal rules for deployment are then followed.
-Incapacitation
Models reduced to 0 wounds during play are said to be 'incapacitated' rather than killed. For each roll a d6:
On a 4+ their apothecaries, doks or equivalents are able to patch the model up to full health. The model may participate fully in coming battles.
On a 2 or 3 the figure is badly injured, losing 1 Wound from their profile. If a figure loses their last wound in this way they are instead killed.
On a 1 the figure is outright killed.
Even attacks by weapons that cause Instant Death only Incapacitate, such is the level of knowledge retained from the Dark Age of Technology.
The winning team may repair any vehicles that have suffered a Wrecked result or less. The losing team are forced to abandon any wrecked or immobilised vehicles.
-Experience
Models receive 2 XP for being part of a squad contesting an objective at the end of the game. They also receive 1 XP for each other model they incapacitate and any vehicle they damage (weapon destroyed, immobilised, wrecked or exploded).
Models are said to 'level up' when they receive 3, 6, 12 and 24 XP.
Each time a model levels up they may increase WS, BS, A or Ld by 1. Each attribute may only be increased once each. Alternatively they may increase the number of Wounds by 1 any number of times.
-Loot
Several mission objectives award Wargear. A single piece of wargear is chosen from the army book of either team. The winner of the mission may give that wargear to one of their models - even if they may not normally equip it. Taking a Weapon in this way requires giving up one of the creature's normal weapons.
-Requisition and Resupply
At the end of the mission both teams receive 16 points which they may either stockpile or spend on army list choices.
-Objectives
d6
1 - Vehicle Supply Depot - The victor adds a vehicle (or Monstrous Creature) to the team.
2 - Armory - Wargear.
3 - Reliquary - Wargear.
4 - Teleportarium - May Deep Strike one unit in their next battle.
5 - Rescue the fallen - The victor receives an additional 16 points at the end of the mission.
6 - Strategic Value - No additional benefit is awarded.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tarinaky
I suspect there's probably already something very similar though in a WD somewhere.
Looks a whole lot like Necromunda, Mordheim or Gorkamorka. The first two I know are available for free from GW, but I'm pretty sure GM doesn't exist anymore.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Necromunda doesn't let you deploy Space Marines or Orks though :p
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Looks kinda like campaign rules for the Kill Team.
Watch out though: if all units are independent characters, and the teleportarium allows one unit to deep strike, i can band my entire army into one unit, deep strike it, and them split it up.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Timberwolf
Fabius Bile basically ripping a swath through his own troops, half of the 14 Noise marines dying to his "modifications" along with 4 of the 5 Chaos bikers and a load of berserkers.
:smallamused:
Fabius' Enhanced Warriors special ability can only be used on generic Chaos Marine squads. You know, the Troops Choice with its choice of five different icons? You aren't allowed to use it on Noise Marines, Bikers or Berzerkers, and I can't see why you would possibly want to use it on any of those except possibly Bikers, except why would you want to take Chaos Bikers? I can see trying to use it with Plague Marines, I guess, since they get all the benefit at a relatively low cost, but... Yeah, regardless, it's very illegal to use Fabius Bile to Enhance non-generic-CSM units. You might want to point that out to your friend in the future.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tarinaky
Necromunda doesn't let you deploy Space Marines or Orks though :p
You can easily play Orks (Goliaths), Eldar (Spyrers), Tau (Van Saar), and possibly a handful of other Xenos with some creative adaptations.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
Looks kinda like campaign rules for the Kill Team.
Watch out though: if all units are independent characters, and the teleportarium allows one unit to deep strike, i can band my entire army into one unit, deep strike it, and them split it up.
Only the Super-Elites count as ICs. The reinforcements to make up the points value don't get anything like that so the worst case is you get to deep strike 2 units worth of models... which isn't really that bad.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
-All Down to You
The stakes of such a mission are so high that only the most tenacious and toughest see deployment. All infantry have twice as many wounds as normal but are still subject to Instant Death.
Also, i might question this. Tracking wounds for all models is going to be an absolute pain. If you want to make stuff more survivable do it some other way- +1 to all saves, or Feel No Pain, or something you don't need to keep as much track of.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
Also, i might question this. Tracking wounds for all models is going to be an absolute pain. If you want to make stuff more survivable do it some other way- +1 to all saves, or Feel No Pain, or something you don't need to keep as much track of.
For most models you can keep track of it by placing 'wounded' models on their sides to mark off 1 wound. Problem solved.
Saving throws have the problem that they're random which in a normal game is fine. But when you have a handful of terminators facing off against a mob of Ork Boyz and no prospect of replacing your losses between fights you want some certainties you can use to mitigate casualties.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
Also, i might question this. Tracking wounds for all models is going to be an absolute pain.
Not really. No different than a unit of ten Nob Bikers, Thunderwolves or Paladins. Or what Necromunda/Mordheim/Gorkamorka players have been doing for years without complaint.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Well, it would seem that the Scenarios for the 'Ard Boyz Semifinals have been posted. As an interested party (being in the tourney myself), I'd like to discuss what people think general good tactics and ideas for each Scenario are.
For reference, I will be playing Orks, with a whole lot of boyz, 2 Deff Rollin' Battlewagons, Thraka, a Big Mek with KFF, and Snikrot. I'm seriously considering a big batch of Nob Bikerz.
1. I Haz A Mezzige!
For this mission, you have to get one specified troop model into your foe's deployment zone. After that, the mission is just Victory Points. So...as far as I can see, the answer is Deff Rollin' Battlewagon. Load up your Mezzinger in there with a whole bunch of other boyz (and either the Mek or Thraka), charge across the field, and then just play normally. Waaagh!
2. THE ANSWER IS ALSO DEFF ROLLIN'. No time to be more specific, but it's a Kaptur Da Flag game (only one objective in the dead center of the map)
3. Play normally, pretend you care what the mission is. Guess what it will be wrong, try to recover clumsily. Then WAAAGH!
Does anyone have any real suggestions?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Hum.. So, I tested out the new Sisters codex update rules against Hootman's Orks a few days ago. Since I dislike cookie cutter creepy, crazy old dudes in my army, I stuck with an updated version of my old list, which looks like this. (Tell me if I mess anything up in list posting):
Spoiler
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HQ-
Saint Celestine-115 pts
Troops-
Battle Sistersx10-205 pts
-Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-Superior: Power Weapon, Combi-Flamer
+Rhino
Battle Sistersx10-205 pts
-Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-Superior: Power Weapon, Combi-Flamer
+Rhino
Battle Sistersx10-205 pts
-Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-Superior: Power Weapon, Combi-Flamer
+Rhino
Fast Attack-
Seraphimx6-160 pts
-Hand flamer pairx2
-Superior: Eviscerator
Dominionsx5-165 pts
-Meltasx2
-Superior: combi-melta
-Immolator: Dozer Blades
Dominionsx5-165 pts
-Meltasx2
-Superior: combi-melta
-Immolator: Dozer Blades
Heavy Support-
Exorcist-135 pts
Exorcist-135pts
1500pts
My old list ran a wing 'ness, but.. Yeah. :smallannoyed:
Anyways, first thing I noticed? Hot dog, 5e ways of organization and points makes putting together a list so smooth. Having only used Codex:WH up to this point, I must say, I'm pleased with this bit, at least.
Now, for the actual units...
Spoiler
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Quote:
HQ-
Saint Celestine-115 pts
First thing- Her price. AWESOME.
She can revive without a chance of permanently dying, or deep-strike-mishap-ing. Good stuff. The fact that her sword is no longer a blessed weapon is offset by the fact that she's WS 7, and that she wounds on a 4+.
Heavy flamer power is also awesome.
Sadly, she loses the ability to give her squad fearlessness, Wings of Faith, which gave her hit and run, and basically a jet pack. But I suppose the trade is fair enough. ...Also, don't get me started on her useless BS7, or the fact that she doesn't have her own faith power.. :smallannoyed:
Quote:
Troops-
Battle Sistersx10-205 pts
-Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-Superior: Power Weapon, Combi-Flamer
+Rhino
Battle Sisters... Still play pretty much the same. I kinda miss AP1-on-6s bolters, but since I was playing Orks, it didn't really matter too much.
Here's the rub about their faith power, however- It says "If used IN the shooting or assault phase...", so does that mean I can roll my hits, look at all my ones, and THEN use their faith to reroll them?
Quote:
Fast Attack-
Seraphimx6-160 pts
-Hand flamer pairx2
-Superior: Eviscerator
Dominionsx5-165 pts
-Meltasx2
-Superior: combi-melta
-Immolator: Dozer Blades
E-
GAD! These ladies are pretty much the best thing since sliced xenos. Sure, you lose two melta ladies (compared to the C:WH) if you want to use an (still overcosted, no longer 'fast' :smallannoyed: ) Immolator, but when they scout in, they're gonna wreck something, hard.
Seraphim, with Celestine are just a sight of awe and terror on the battlefield. Sadly, they're no longer the melee unit they used to be. The initiative drop hurts. Especially with the new H&R. ...Also, still str 3.
Quote:
Heavy Support-
Exorcist-135 pts
Still the same. Still pretty good. Still kinda expensive. Still has a huge "DESTROY ME!" sign painted on it.
Overall, the new WD stuff isn't UTTER TRASH, but it's definitely no Codex: Grey Knights, either. I give it a "Meh" out of five. More playtesting and opinions to come, I suppose. I'm really wanting to convert me up some Retributors, give their transport to my Repentia, and have fun delivering the Box o' Sharp to my opponents.
Edit: Oy! You! Up there! I didn't know you were online! Crazy kinda-ninja burrowing owl...
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tarinaky
I couldn't sleep and I felt like procrastinating my other projects... I've also been playing way too much Dawn of War 2... So I hashed out a 'Fun' minigame very quickly. I suspect there's probably already something very similar though in a WD somewhere.
Spoiler
Show
Warhammer 40k Variant rules, Xenos!
These rules are designed for use in a campaign emphasising fun and story over tournament values of fairness. Armies do not resupply automatically between battles so phyrric victories will very quickly kill your chances of overall victory.
-Assembling the team
Each player begins the campaign with a single Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy or Troop unit. They may take any combination of upgrades they wish, including Transports.
Imperial Guard may opt to take a Platoon of up to 3 units instead of a single unit.
Record the models taken, their equipment, profiles on a Team reference sheet, along with the total points value of your team.
-Super Elite
All models gain the benefit of the Independant Character special rule and may join or leave squads as they desire.
Squadrons of vehicles behave as seperate vehicles.
-All Down to You
The stakes of such a mission are so high that only the most tenacious and toughest see deployment. All infantry have twice as many wounds as normal but are still subject to Instant Death.
-Deployment and Objectives
Roll to determine who goes first. The player going second determines the mission objective randomly (see table) and deploys it.
The team with the smallest points value may take additional, temporary, units to equalise the two teams. Temporary models taken in this way receive only their normal allowance of wounds and do not count as Independant Characters. Only the maximums of the Force Organisation Chart apply, not the minimums.
The normal rules for deployment are then followed.
-Incapacitation
Models reduced to 0 wounds during play are said to be 'incapacitated' rather than killed. For each roll a d6:
On a 4+ their apothecaries, doks or equivalents are able to patch the model up to full health. The model may participate fully in coming battles.
On a 2 or 3 the figure is badly injured, losing 1 Wound from their profile. If a figure loses their last wound in this way they are instead killed.
On a 1 the figure is outright killed.
Even attacks by weapons that cause Instant Death only Incapacitate, such is the level of knowledge retained from the Dark Age of Technology.
The winning team may repair any vehicles that have suffered a Wrecked result or less. The losing team are forced to abandon any wrecked or immobilised vehicles.
-Experience
Models receive 2 XP for being part of a squad contesting an objective at the end of the game. They also receive 1 XP for each other model they incapacitate and any vehicle they damage (weapon destroyed, immobilised, wrecked or exploded).
Models are said to 'level up' when they receive 3, 6, 12 and 24 XP.
Each time a model levels up they may increase WS, BS, A or Ld by 1. Each attribute may only be increased once each. Alternatively they may increase the number of Wounds by 1 any number of times.
-Loot
Several mission objectives award Wargear. A single piece of wargear is chosen from the army book of either team. The winner of the mission may give that wargear to one of their models - even if they may not normally equip it. Taking a Weapon in this way requires giving up one of the creature's normal weapons.
-Requisition and Resupply
At the end of the mission both teams receive 16 points which they may either stockpile or spend on army list choices.
-Objectives
d6
1 - Vehicle Supply Depot - The victor adds a vehicle (or Monstrous Creature) to the team.
2 - Armory - Wargear.
3 - Reliquary - Wargear.
4 - Teleportarium - May Deep Strike one unit in their next battle.
5 - Rescue the fallen - The victor receives an additional 16 points at the end of the mission.
6 - Strategic Value - No additional benefit is awarded.
Take a squad of 3 Carnifex upgraded to handle different things (One close combat, one infantry killer, one tank killer). Spend upgrade points on BS then Wounds then WS then Ld. But then there's the whole instinctive behavior thing. Are you only allowed to take a single choice (Troop, elite, fast, heavy) and not allowed to get another? Like could I get a squad of warriors and a squad of Carnifi?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hootman
For this mission, you have to get one specified troop model into your foe's deployment zone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Games Workshop
Deployment:
Use Dawn o War found on page 93 of the rulebook.
Not entirely sure they thought this through.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ninja Chocobo
Not entirely sure they thought this through.
Yeah, no. Deploy in a transport at the center line. Easy peasy. That's part of the reason why I think I've actually got a shot at winning--all orks want to do ANYWAYS is charge forward in a Battlewagon. I'm not hampered at all. And, as mentioned, the Deff Rolla is pretty much guaranteed to make things more interesting.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tychris1
Take a squad of 3 Carnifex upgraded to handle different things (One close combat, one infantry killer, one tank killer). Spend upgrade points on BS then Wounds then WS then Ld. But then there's the whole instinctive behavior thing. Are you only allowed to take a single choice (Troop, elite, fast, heavy) and not allowed to get another? Like could I get a squad of warriors and a squad of Carnifi?
Only one squad (unless you're outnumbered and get temporary reinforcements). 'Fexes instinctive behavior is Rage though so it's still pretty lulsy. :D
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tychris1
Take a squad of 3 Carnifex upgraded to handle different things (One close combat, one infantry killer, one tank killer). Spend upgrade points on BS then Wounds then WS then Ld. But then there's the whole instinctive behavior thing. Are you only allowed to take a single choice (Troop, elite, fast, heavy) and not allowed to get another? Like could I get a squad of warriors and a squad of Carnifi?
Shame that you can't do that, really.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tarinaky
Only one squad (unless you're outnumbered and get temporary reinforcements). 'Fexes instinctive behavior is Rage though so it's still pretty lulsy. :D
Good thing Carnifex come in squads. And yeah, since the whole rage thing I guess that means you should trick out your Carnifi to be close combat. Still that sucks that you HAVE to take Synapse creatures and only synapse creatures unless you want to have instinctive behavior everywhere.
Huh, maybe instead you could raise the Carnifi Ld so that they make there behavior test more often.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
It's tempting to let Tyranid Super-Elites have the same special rule Genestealers get that mean they don't use Instinctive Behavior... Except there's already a few units that have it that're more flavourful and need every reason they can muster to stand a chance at being taken :p
Some Lictors or Genestealers stalking a bug hunt patrol is pretty iconic.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tychris1
Take a squad of 3 Carnifex upgraded to handle different things (One close combat, one infantry killer, one tank killer)
All Carnifii in a brood have to have the same upgrades.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Yeah I know I pointed that out in my later post. So instead have the Carnifi go for Jack of all Trades master of none. Crushing Claws and Heavy venom cannons will do that.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
how worth it is it to purchase an eldar battleforce? i'm trying to make an army that is built around several units of pathfinders (i like how they look and the idea of rending on a 5+ is intriguing). i have also made steps towards purchasing a farseer and a group of warlocks to go with him, as well as a full squad of fire dragons for anti tank exploits. i am going to get my self a few fire prisms in the near future. i want to shy away from a jetbike list, i already have white scars, and a mech list isn't really what i was going for either. i want something fun to paint, and fun to play. pathfinders seemed like a good choice in that respect, but i need something in my troop slot to add some beef, i thought the battleforce would be a good source of brawn to add to my existing army list plans.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
If you don't plan on using anything out of the battleforce I don't know why you would even consider it. I think its a great set for my army, but I also use everything out of it.
For rangers to work you need a lot of them, and to get a lot of them you can't field much for guardians or dire avengers, half of whats in the box.
I've never been all that impressed with rangers, they have their uses but with the upgrades they are too expensive to be the core of an army. They also suck at advancing on and taking objectives, they are great at holding ones they can get to, but not for any of the others.
If you aren't looking at mech then the wave serpent isn't doing much good either. Though you can always use at least one for the fire dragons.
Whether or not you use the war walker depends a lot on how you want to do it. I think they would probably do ok with the little we know of your list, at least if you get a few of them.
I think though that if you have your farseer and warlocks on foot they are going to need a wave serpent for them as well or they aren't going to get anywhere alive.
Without knowing more of what you have planned it would seem like you would need half-mech and half rangers.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
okay, thanks. i have a lot of players in my meta game, which is why i went for the fire dragons. i was thinking that splitting my troop choices into rangers (infiltrating onto objectives) and dire avengers (in wave serpents pushing people off of objectives). i haven't really looked at the war walkers, i just started playing eldar (i'm a long time space marine player). i was considering getting some banshees, or maybe scorpions to function as elite hunters, and to provide support to the dire avengers. i liked the combined fire rule for the fire prism, and i wanted to give that a go, but the kits are rather expensive, so i went with the fire dragons instead. they seemed more versatile, and much more resilient to railguns and the like. i guess i might be better off just getting the dire avengers kit and a wave serpent, seeing as how i don't really have a use for the guardians. just a quick question, how good are dark reapers? it seems kinda odd to me to have a heavy support unit designed to kill infantry. in your experience, are they worth the 40 something dollars i'd spend on them?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gabado
just a quick question, how good are dark reapers? it seems kinda odd to me to have a heavy support unit designed to kill infantry. in your experience, are they worth the 40 something dollars i'd spend on them?
It depends what you need. S5, AP3, Heavy 2, as well as the Exarch's Barrage weapon (with Fast or Crack Shot) may as well be "Sweep any non-Terminator unit not in a Transport off the board." True story.
However, it's the 'not in a Transport' that gets them. How full of Mech is your meta-game? Do you generally use 25-33% cover as recommended or less? And more importantly, is cover usually only in each other's DZ's rather than in the middle of the board where they're more useful?
(Newbie Tip; If you take turns placing cover, terrain and cover are usually more useful in the centre of the board than in your DZ. Usually. If you're a gunline, obviously this doesn't apply.)
If you play with a lot of terrain, or your meta-game is smart and puts LoS blockers and cover in the middle of the board, then Dark Reapers aren't going to be helpful.
D-Cannons can generally serve the same purpose as Reapers, but have access to Warlocks, can hurt vehicles and force Pinning Checks all day long. Me, personally, I'm terrified of D-Cannons. It also seriously messes with Assault-based armies that like to get close which most Eldar armies aren't usually good against.
War Walkers are the Bee's Knees. If you have double-Autarchs, and function around that play-style. If you're not Outflanking War Walkers, Wraithlords can generally serve better. Unless you're against lots of Dark Eldar or Sniper players.
Fire Prisms are First-Turn Tank-Kills. If you're taking one, you're taking three (or at least two. One isn't helpful). Due to it's 60" range, there isn't much in the game that can ping it back. Especially after being hit by an S10, AP1 Twin-Linked weapon. Leman Russ Battle Tanks (the best IG tank, if I haven't already said at least 4 times) are the only thing that worry Fire Prisms in the broader sense of things.
While I do hate Tailoring, it has to be said that a player's army is shaped by their meta-game. Do you need Dark Reapers? If yes, then get them. If not, don't.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gabado
how worth it is it to purchase an eldar battleforce? i'm trying to make an army that is built around several units of pathfinders (i like how they look and the idea of rending on a 5+ is intriguing). i have also made steps towards purchasing a farseer and a group of warlocks to go with him, as well as a full squad of fire dragons for anti tank exploits. i am going to get my self a few fire prisms in the near future. i want to shy away from a jetbike list, i already have white scars, and a mech list isn't really what i was going for either. i want something fun to paint, and fun to play. pathfinders seemed like a good choice in that respect, but i need something in my troop slot to add some beef, i thought the battleforce would be a good source of brawn to add to my existing army list plans.
Pathfinders, Fire Dragons and Fire Prisms are heavily represented in my own army, and so far, they are working just fine. The Fire Dragons have never disappointed me, and the Fire Prisms usually perform very well; as for the Pathfinders, they always perform well when I am cautious in deploying them, and perform poorly if I miss some way for the opponent to reach them more quickly than I anticipated. If something gets close to them, they fold immediately. Wonderfully deadly otherwise, though.
One note: Pathfinders are not rending on 5+. Rending happens on the To-Wound roll (respectively, Armour Penetration roll). The Pathfinders' rifles are only rending on a 6, as all other sniper weapons. What Pathfinders have is a special rule that their weapons get AP1 on a To-Hit roll of 5+. That means you have two chances to bypass armour - one on the To-Hit roll, if you roll 5+, and another one on the To-Wound roll, if you roll 6. (Unfortunately, it also means there is a chance for your AP1 shots to fail to wound...)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
If you play with a lot of terrain, or your meta-game is smart and puts LoS blockers and cover in the middle of the board, then Dark Reapers aren't going to be helpful.
Actualy, this is the point where Reapers are at their best, since its the exarch that does most of the work anyway.
The reaper launcher is a barrage weapon, so you fire over Los blockers, and the crack shot ability ignores cover (besides letting you reroll to wound, its by far the best ability).
You do of course kinda need a farseer nearby, if you want to hit stuff while firering indirect fire at hidden targets.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
So i have a 1500 point Imperial Guard army, and i'd welcome any comments or criticisms. It isn't nearly optimised enough, though it isn't for tournaments, just casual play.
Spoiler
Show
HQ
Company Command Squad- Bolter, Vox, Sniper rifle.
Lord-Commisar- Carapace armour, Powersword, Plasma Pistol
ELITES
Stormtrooper squadron- Flamer, Melta
TROOPS
Platoon 1
Platoon Command squad- Vox, Plasma gun, Autocannon, Bolter
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Lascannon
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher
Platoon 2
Platoon Command squad- Plasma pistol, Powersword, Heavy flamer, 2x Melta, Vox
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Flamers.
FAST ATTACK
Vendetta Gunship
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Laser Destroyer (Bog-standard Leman Russ, but has a str10 ap1 hull-mounted gun and no turret)
Leman Russ Vanquisher- Lascannon, Multi-meltas.
Griffon Heavy Mortar
Things I might change:
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- I have a spare autocannon. I could stick that in the company command squad.
- The powersword on the platoon commander could be dropped to afford that.
- I could swap the flamers and meltas in my second platoon around, so two squads with meltas and a command squad with two flamers and a heavy flamer.
- I bet that Vanquisher will be blown up turn one. I should probably drop the upgrades, right?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gabado
okay, thanks. i have a lot of players in my meta game, which is why i went for the fire dragons. i was thinking that splitting my troop choices into rangers (infiltrating onto objectives) and dire avengers (in wave serpents pushing people off of objectives).
Rangers/Pathfinders are a very solid unit, but I agree with Erloas that they're too expensive to use as the core of your army. A mixed setup with Dire Avengers though could work well.
Quote:
i haven't really looked at the war walkers, i just started playing eldar (i'm a long time space marine player).
War Walkers equipped with shuricannons or scatter lasers are reasonably cheap and bring some serious outflanking fire power. Great volume of S6 shots for anti-infantry, or anti-transport when you outflank behind their lines and get rear armor.
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i was considering getting some banshees, or maybe scorpions to function as elite hunters, and to provide support to the dire avengers
Both are solid options, but I think Eldar do well enough as is against hordes (Scorpions specialty) with Dire Avengers and other shooting options. Besides the Fire Prism and Star Cannons (blegh, horribly overpriced), Eldar don't have much recourse against 2+ armor though, where Banshees really shine. Also, with an I6 Grey Knight heavy meta, striking at I10 on the first turn is all the more attractive.
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just a quick question, how good are dark reapers? it seems kinda odd to me to have a heavy support unit designed to kill infantry. in your experience, are they worth the 40 something dollars i'd spend on them?
Reapers-- against the right opponent and especially when supported by a Farseer-- are fantastic and easily capable of removing a full squad of power armor in one round, even in cover. The exarch does most of the heavy lifting with the tempest launcher and crack shot, allowing him to drop two S4 AP3 BS5 small blasts that ignore cover and re-roll to wound. My marine playing friends eventually told me they wouldn't play me anymore if I kept using Dark Reapers.
Even when facing Orks or Nids, the normal Reaper Launchers can be a threat to most MCs, and the Exarch can still do a fair bit of harm to horde units.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
So i have a 1500 point Imperial Guard army, and i'd welcome any comments or criticisms. It isn't nearly optimised enough, though it isn't for tournaments, just casual play.
Okay, I'll take a crack at it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
HQ
Company Command Squad- Bolter, Vox, Sniper rifle.
Lord-Commisar- Carapace armour, Powersword, Plasma Pistol
Where's the Lord Commissar going? Because wherever it is, he's better off with a camo cloak; Stealth transfers to units he's with, while carapace armor does not. Also, sniper rifles are a waste of points unless you have lots of them; I only ever include them when I'm out of other special weapons, which it's possible for me to do since my infantry selection is still on the small side. The bolter is also unlikely to make a difference, though it at least gives the commander the same range as everyone else in the squad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
ELITES
Stormtrooper squadron- Flamer, Melta
What are you doing with these guys? Suicide deep strike?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
TROOPS
Platoon 1
Platoon Command squad- Vox, Plasma gun, Autocannon, Bolter
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Lascannon
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher
We're up to three sniper rifles so far. Still not lots. See above about the bolter. Lascannons and missile launchers are good, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
Platoon 2
Platoon Command squad- Plasma pistol, Powersword, Heavy flamer, 2x Melta, Vox
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Flamers.
Plasma pistols aren't worth the points; you're spending ten points to kill your commander before the enemy does. The power weapon would be better on one of the infantry squad sergeants; he's more likely to last long enough to use it. A command squad in assault is a command squad that's dead before you get to I3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
FAST ATTACK
Vendetta Gunship
Yes. Can't go wrong here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Laser Destroyer (Bog-standard Leman Russ, but has a str10 ap1 hull-mounted gun and no turret)
Will your opponents let you use stuff out of Imperial Armour?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
Leman Russ Vanquisher- Lascannon, Multi-meltas.
Terrible setup. Leaving aside the fact that the standard battle tank is all-around better (the blast is likely to hit something; here you're taking a 50/50 shot at even getting close to doing anything), the Vanquisher is a long-range tank, and multimeltas want to get close. If you're ever close enough to your target to use multimeltas, to say nothing of actually being in melta range, you're doing it wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
Griffon Heavy Mortar
Well, it isn't another sniper rifle, but at least it's more pinning. If you're going to do pinning, do lots of it; most opponents will have Leadership high enough that you want to force multiple saves to ensure having an effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
Things I might change:
Spoiler
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- I have a spare autocannon. I could stick that in the company command squad.
- The powersword on the platoon commander could be dropped to afford that.
- I could swap the flamers and meltas in my second platoon around, so two squads with meltas and a command squad with two flamers and a heavy flamer.
- I bet that Vanquisher will be blown up turn one. I should probably drop the upgrades, right?
If you're going to drop something to afford the other autocannon, start with the sniper rifles. The lascannon on the Vanquisher is fine if you must use a Vanquisher, but lose the multimeltas; in fact I wouldn't use any sponsons at all, since the longest range you can get out of them is 36".
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Thanks for the help. I'll take your advice on moving the plasma pistol/powersword to a squad commander, and swapping the lord-commissar's carapace for camo-cloaks. The stormtroopers ARE suicide deep-strike, aimed at whatever's causing me trouble that turn. The obvious Mission to give them is Airborne Assault, but the one that grants Pinning might be useful if there's a horde army, rather than a tank needing popping.
The only clarification i need to make is about the sniper rifles. You say three isn't enough- i have TWO squads with snipers and missiles, and TWO squads with lascannons and snipers. Would five do? The theory is that i can either chance at pinning a squad or killing a tank.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
The only clarification i need to make is about the sniper rifles. You say three isn't enough- i have TWO squads with snipers and missiles, and TWO squads with lascannons and snipers. Would five do? The theory is that i can either chance at pinning a squad or killing a tank.
To give you a guide, I routinely run 20 Space marine scouts. 16 have sniper rifles. If I get 1 pin off a game, I consider that a very good day. Of course, MEQ, Green tide Orks, Nid players who know what they're doing and Eldar were my local meta (I've just moved so can't comment on here, but will be astonished if it's much different). That many snipers, backed by the missiles, is a realistic threat to AV12 and under vehicles but, well, to do anything on that front, I have to beat a lot of odds. With my scouts, I have a 50% chance to hit, a 1 in 6 chance to advance to the next step with a rend and against AV 12, 1/3 chance of glancing, against AV11, a 2/3 chance of doing something to it.
I got a friend to work this out once and, while I can't remember the exact chances, lets just say, they weren't great. If you're going to play those odds, you need massed fire, the kind of massed fire that 5 rifles will not provide.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Timberwolf
To give you a guide, I routinely run 20 Space marine scouts. 16 have sniper rifles. If I get 1 pin off a game, I consider that a very good day.
I have 54 Sniper Rifles. And I still think that sometimes it isn't enough.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
One of these days, I'll try that out. I got a scout army off the Bay of E so the potential is there.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeSwordfish
So i have a 1500 point Imperial Guard army, and i'd welcome any comments or criticisms. It isn't nearly optimised enough, though it isn't for tournaments, just casual play.
Spoiler
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HQ
Company Command Squad- Bolter, Vox, Sniper rifle.
I don't really understand the Bolter...I know that the strength, ap, and range are better but still it is two points which makes it a bit harder to make the most use of your points...here I mean getting to 1500 exactly...although, you may have done that.
Lord-Commisar- Carapace armour, Powersword, Plasma Pistol
Please take the Plasma pistol away, its a little bomb for your commissar to help the enemy get a kill point. Also the Camo Cloak thing.
ELITES
Stormtrooper squadron- Flamer, Melta
Why the combo? If you have more horde in your meta, flamer, more tanks, melta, the combo is a little bit of indecision.
TROOPS
Platoon 1
Platoon Command squad- Vox, Plasma gun, Autocannon, Bolter
Again, the Bolter thing...and the Plasma gun...um...without a reliable armor save (like what you can get with Comp. Command Squads) the carrier is more likely to die...so maybe a Grenade Launcher for one third the cost?
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Lascannon
I never get pinning reliably (although probably no one does...) so I rarely take Sniper Rifles outside of "I don't care if I lose, this list is fun" lists. Lascannon can't go wrong.
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher
Platoon 2
Platoon Command squad- Plasma pistol, Powersword, Heavy flamer, 2x Melta, Vox
Plasma Pistol...please no, you already know the reason. Powersword, not bad but not the best. Take off the Heavy Flamer, take off the meltas, and give the squad three flamers instead. Its a lot cheaper and it will outdo that Heavy Flamer easily. To get more meltas, maybe a Special Weapons Squad?
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Flamers.
Save yourself five points, take off one of the Voxes and combine the squads, the vox will still work on the entire squad and only if someone pulls a mindwar or you remove the guy as a casualty...please don't...then he'll be fine.
FAST ATTACK
Vendetta Gunship
for so many reasons, yes.
HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Laser Destroyer (Bog-standard Leman Russ, but has a str10 ap1 hull-mounted gun and no turret)
Leman Russ Vanquisher- Lascannon, Multi-meltas.
If you can't have a Battle Tank, take off the Multi Meltas and you'll be good, but a Battle Tank would be best.
Griffon Heavy Mortar
I like this tank personally, its cheap, and has a rerollable Barrage weapon.
I know that I'm late to the party(I had school to deal with) to do this but here is my crack at help. (may not be needed as Rogue Paladin knows what he is doing and does it well.)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
The Griffon isn't actually rerollable; its shells just have Descent of Angels. :smalltongue:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Alright, y'all. I've figured out what my list may end up as for 'Ard Boyz in...just a week and a half now. Oh dear.
So, basically, I need to finish this up quickly so I can finish building everything. What I would like from you fine people is critique; what would you do differently? What obvious (or even non-obvious) counters to various units or playstyles should I be wary or aware of? Considering the scenarios, do you think that I have a realistic chance of winning?
ORKS, 2500 POINTS, 'ARD BOYZ SEMI-FINALS
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HQ
Thraka, 225pts
Big Mek, 115pts
Powerklaw & Shoota, Kustom Force Field, 'Eavy Armor
ELITES
Kommandos 10, 215pts
-2 Burnas
-Boss Snikrot
Lootas 8, 120pts
TROOPS
Nobs on Warbikes 9, 530pts (very carefully)
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1. PK
2. PK, Cybork
3. BC
4. BC, Cybork
5. Waaagh! Banner
6. Kombi-Skorcha
7. Cybork
8. X
9. Painboy
Boyz 18, 143pts
-Sluggas & Choppas
-Nob with Powerklaw
Boyz 18, 143pts
-Sluggas & Choppas
-Nob with Powerklaw
Boyz 20, 170pts
-Shootas, 2 Big Shootas
-Nob with Powerklaw, Bosspole
Boyz 20, 170pts
-Shootas, 2 Big Shootas
-Nob with Powerklaw, Bosspole
Boys 29, 209pts
-Sluggas & Choppas
-Nob with Powerklaw
FAST ATTACK
Deffkoptas 2, 115pts
-Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas, 1 Buzzsaw
HEAVY SUPPORT
Battlewagon, 145pts
-Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, 2 Big Shootas
Battlewagon, 140pts
-Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, 2 Big Shootas
Looted Wagon, 60pts
-Skorcha, Red Paint Job, Reinforced Ram
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tren
My marine playing friends eventually told me they wouldn't play me anymore if I kept using Dark Reapers.
:smallsigh:
Really!? Like I said, Dark Reapers aren't even that good.
Killing Reapers is easy. In the last battle, I found that using Mordin with Incinerate, and Miranda or Thane with Warp, I prefer Mirandaerrr...Wrong Game.
I'll go through a list of things Space Marines have that destroy Reapers fairly easily. This isn't even tailoring, since nearly all of these things are good against everything;
The tried and tested amazing-sauce of a Librarian in Drop Pod with Avenger. Upgrade to Epistolary, drop Null Zone and destroy surrounding Farseers and Warlocks with the rest of your army.
As has been mentioned, the Exarch is the one who does most of the work. Take him out with Telion.
Terminators - both kinds, actually - make Dark Reapers cry. Deep Strike either kind next to Reapers and they wont be happy.
Sternguard; AP3 ammo is for winners. Or not. And just use them as saves for your Librarian in the Drop Pod.
Any Dreadnought makes Reapers cry. Use Drop Pods. Whether shooting at or in Assault, Dreadnoughts make Reapers very, very sad. Then start singing "Can't touch this." My Ironclad rarely dies against Eldar.
One of my favourite images.
Dreadnoughts go something like that against Eldar.
Use Shrike. Infiltrate an Assault Squad. Fleet in their face. Beat Eldar at their own game. lollerskates.
Devastators can ping Reapers right back. The Tempest Launcher only has 36" range, so the Devs can't be Pinned (easily), and just play rocket tag. You're in cover, they're in cover.
Use Kahn. Outflank anything good. Bike Command Squads. Amazing.
But, how do you really defeat Dark Reapers, without fail? Mech up, son. Transports makes Reapers sad. Most Eldar roll with S6-spam and the occasional Eldar Missile Launcher or Bright Lance. Which doesn't quite compare to Plasma, Melta and Lascannon spam in the slightest which is what most Marine-Mechs have to deal with.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
One of my favourite images.
Dreadnoughts go something like that against Eldar.
Linky no worky.
:smallbiggrin:
(Also this. May Imperial justice account in all balance. The Emperor protects.) :smallamused:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
My Little Marines: Friendship is Heresy?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade Paladin
Linky no worky.
:smallbiggrin:
(Also
this. May Imperial justice account in all balance. The Emperor protects.) :smallamused:
Suffer not the parasprite to live.
Death to the traitor... I mean Griffon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drasius
My Little Marines: Friendship is Heresy?
my little ponyhammer
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Renegade Paladin
Apparently Miroku and Kagome (bottom left) are equal threats on par with ponies. Really? Am I supposed to hate InuYasha that much? :smallconfused:
...Is it terrible, then, that I like both ponies and IY?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ogremindes
Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?
Because Blood Ravens are stupid. Seriously, Retribution happens because Diomedes doesn't listen at the end of Chaos Rising. Even though I totally killed Diomedes.
"Hey. Diomedes! The guy with the glowing red eyes and echo-y voice is EVUL!!!"
"Nuh uh. He said he isn't."
gg Diomedes. It's a shame I actually have to be you this time.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
"Hey. Diomedes! The guy with the glowing red eyes and echo-y voice is EVUL!!!"
"Nuh uh. He said he isn't."
In fairness, Librarians are like that. It's like spoiling milk, you start to corrupt physically long before you're actually a threat to yourself and others.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ogremindes
Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?
I was going to ask the artist the same thing, but I couldn't be arsed to sign up on the board he put it up on to do it.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ogremindes
Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?
Better question:
Who's arm is that? The one flying and gorey as if the marines cut it off of something?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Slow thread is slow! Here's a batrep for your reading pleasure.
Got an apocalypse report, this time. Played it back on my birthday in June, maybe not the pinnacle of competitive 40k, but we still get to play with our little plastic men.
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Set Up:
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We set up our citadel terrain in a valley formation, with several pieces of supported foam on the end of the board leading to a terraced hill with 3 large structures atop it--a sacred shrine. Our local T/O and the person who's been in the hobby the longest said he'd read that one of the battles for Armageddon was over a specific shrine, so we were going to be doing that one. Appropriately, we put our objectives nearer it, while the Ork player (an out of towner with more years play experience than our 3-man team combined) sprinkled his along the midfield. We abandoned the usual Armageddon deployment and used a pitched battle strategy instead. I wish my camera were functional, I'd post pictures, but basically there was fair terrain in either deployment zone with a road running the length of the game board (10 feetx4feet) to the shrine. Our IG player (RenegadePaladin) intentionally fielded under points to get us another Strategic Asset, which worked out well, he provided our team with a Defense Line and the Replacements Strategem for his Baneblade. I chose Flank March for my Army so that I could apply the wolf-driven pain where I need to. Our other Ally--the Black Templars--chose the Bastion Strategy, which granted us 6 AV14 bunkers. Hot sauce! He put a Vindicare assassin in one, and instructed us to fill the others with heavy weapons. For Strategems dem Orkz took some sort of smoke screen, a Mek repair shop (not the workshop), and something else.
Our Orkponnent was given first turn, as a matter of courtesy. He put Ghaz in a Skullhamma with an unholy amount of Meganobz and Grotsnik in the center of his deployment zone. It was flanked by Truks full of lootas on one side with a Battlewagon full of Nobz and 2-3 Battlewagons full of Nobz on the other side. Moving out to either side were 2 Stompa formations (one on either side) with something in the neighborhood of 1 Deff Dread and 6 Kans each They were also supported by Deffkoptas. A 100-120 sized Green Tide made up the bookends of the army, stretching from zone-to-zone. Every unit had a Painboy. In reserve he left a single battle formation of speed freeks with 2 Biker Squad and a Nob Bikerz squad with Zhadsnark Da Rippa and something else in Reserve, I think. 10,000 points of Orks is hard to fit on a 10x4 table, after all.
We deploy now: I stop the gaps between our bunkers with Lone Wolves while a huge Black Templar squad hides behind one. The Guard set up a string of heavy weapons and lascannons behind the Defense lines in our deployment zone, putting several heavy weapons teams in one bunker. As per instructed, I fill the bunkers with heavy weapon death, one closest to the leftmost Green Tide full of rockets, Tiewaz lead by Tyr, the central one, directly across from the Skullhamma full of the Sunwolve's multimeltas, and Hagalaz sets up in the one near that. I put Skullbones pack with the Terminator Armored rune priest across from the other Green Tide--
Murderous Hurricane will put them in their place. A few lone wolves break off to help the grey hunters packs, the CML terminator joining Tiewaz. Njal Sets up with the Sunwolves. The Baneblade and Manticore are deployed centrally behind our Fortress of Redemption (big fortress!) with some Sword Brethern, a rhino of more BTs and the Emperor's Champion safeguarding them. Guardsmen are sprinkled liberally throughout.
I keep a lot of my army in reserve, Logan joins his remaining Wolf Guard there, and the Wolf Priest (new model, yet to earn his name!) joins the Grey Hunters Skull Pack. (Sweet jesus wolf priest + 10 grey hunters +1 Wolf Guard is SO GOOD.) I keep the Fenrisian Wolves in reserve, as well as the Cavalry, Canis, Valkur, and Magni (who all join the Cavalry) Our Templar Ally keeps a LRC full of terminators with a Chaplain buddy in reserve, two squad of shooty terminators with tank Hunters in reserve, a drop pod and a Land Speeder in reserve. Most of the BT units have a Teleport Homer in their group. Our Guard ally kept a bunch of Chimeras with meltavets in reserve, also.
Turn 1
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Orkies go first, surges forward, nearly everything runs except the big guns. In Shooting they manage to rock the bunker with the guard heavy weapons teams, forcing them to spill out. Psycho Dakka Blasta from two Stompas results in them being mostly reduced to 1 missile and a sarge. Lone Wolf wolf pals catch absurd amount of bullets with their teeth (Defense line strategy is the win!) and I think I lost a Grey Hunter. The big shell from the Skullhamma went a little wide and claimed several BTs, however. The Deffkoptas charge the BT rhino near the Manticore and some guardsmen. The Rhino survives.
With turn passing to us, the Ork player reveals one of his assets. A billowing, impenetrable line of smoke hides most of his valuable units from our big guns, forcing our turn to be cut short. Njal's stormcaller ability rolls up a penalty for enemy BS and I grin, you win some, you lose some. With nothing else to shoot at, and his smoke line scattering short, everyone on the left half of the board unloads into a Stompa poking partially through the line knocking two structure points off the monster. The suicidal Deff Kopta meets its eventual end at the hands of a nearby command squad, also. The Green Tide on the right gets tagged with a murderous Hurricane from nearly maximum range. Guard fires on the Green tide as well, though in hindsight he should have unloaded on the Battlewagons full of Nobz cruising toward his front line.
Turn 2
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With such a wicked strategy denying us nearly an entire turn of shooting, the mobs of boyz, nobz, and kanz surge forward, The biggest guns are all within 24" of Njal--I hear BS1 is pretty good. One of our remaining bunkers gets shaken, no heavy losses this turn. Orks are able to get out and charge the Sunwolf Bunker and a single lone wolf (Vali), another group multicharging the guard line and Tiewaz's bunker and little else. Long story short: Sunwolf bunker dies to Ghaz 'n Co's HORDE of claw attacks. Vali succeeds 9 invulnerable saves, and the subsequent 11 armor saves, leaving something like 9 mega nobz, Ghaz and Grotsnik unshootable. Also one guardsman survives melee in the other combat, rolling Insane Heroism for his morale check (Thanks for the Reroll, baneblade!). The hurricane'd green tide surges forward, running, but unable to make it into assault, they suffer severe losses from the weather--we ignore the model specifics of taking dangerous tests, to save ourselves about 15 minutes over a few turns.
With things looking pretty rough, we begin our second turn. The right side of the board looks pretty effed at this point, so we decide to attempt to clean out our stronghold in the left and sweep outward, things look pretty grim right now. The Templars bring in the deep striking terminators to hunt some tanks, our Guard player rolls out his melta-vet formation. No good rolls for Njal's passive this turn, so he creates cover save for the vehicles around him as he leaves the Sunwolves to stand valiantly in front of the terrifying Warboss. Thunderwolves Flank March in front of the Green Tide; the Warrior Born intent on collecting an impressive number of Ork skulls. Fenrisian wolves crowd in behind them, ensuring Flank Marching Speed Freeks can't actually fit on the board. Tank Hunter assault cannons and concentrated missile hail bring an end to the nearby Stompa. Wolfbones backs up, laying another hurricane into the Tide advancing on them. The Sunwolves blow the main gun off the Skullhamma, also. Come the assault phase, it's decided to do-or-die. Iron Priest Sverrir and his Cyberwolves combined with the supporting Templar Dreadnought charge into the squad of Nobz engaged with the single guardsman. The Wolves lay a Nob low as does the Dreadnought, while the Warboss and Sverrir exchange blows--Sverrir splits his attacks, pouring some of the S10 hammer wounds into the squad, and powering 2 through on the Warboss to ID him. The Iron Priest's lack of an invulnerable save his is downfall, however--but the Nobz locked in with the the dread had only 1 klaw left now. The Thunderwolf Cavalry and assorted Wolf Lords begin the arduous task of sweeping up the Green Tide.
Turn 3
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Our Orkponnent throws the best of his weight against us now, with the Speed Freekz coming on en-masse, maybe one or two dieing to terrain as they advance onto the board. He does little shooting, hoping to bury us in combat resolution. He does fire some shots, however, shaking the far bunker and killing a few Grey Hunters--the unengaged Green Tide surges forward, Orks dieing left and right as the hurricane sweeps them up. Stormcaller saves our heavy tanks from several penetrating hits. Ghaz and his boys charge headlong into the Baneblade, the Sunwolves and a lonely Imperial Techpriest. Everything is wiped out, but I think a few wounds are put on some Meganobz. Valkur continues to tick the Warrior Born count up, totaling seven now, while the Green tide is stuck mostly fighting Fenrisian Wolves. Canis dies horribly to a Warboss's Klaw, as I'd put Magni in the wrong spot to pick that IC out. Their numbers are rapidly thinning thanks to No Retreat! The Grey hunters on the other side finally fall in combat as well. 5 Longfangs and a baneblade crumple before the mass of Klaw attacks. They consolidate into a nice straight line.
This is the pivotal turn for us, it's all or nothing. Chimeras full of melta roll in through the Baneblade wreckage, Skull pack and their Wolf Priest, Logan, Arjac, and 6 other Wolf Guard march to stand eye to eye with Ghazkul and his Meganobz. The Landraider full of terminators rolls on near the Dreadnought locked into combat with the Nobz while the drop pod and speeder come down to stand between the Thunderwolves and the Speed Freeks. The guard employ one of their assets, and another Baneblade rolls onto the table, and begins bombarding the bikes. Little else happens in the way of movement. Njal splits the earth beneath Ghaz and his boyz A warboss, 5 meganobz and 2 nobz back near the dreadnought combat all plummet off the board .Both the Nobz bite it, Ghaz stays, and 4/5 meganobz are swallowed by the earth. I hear mutterings of bringing Eldrad next time, to back up his green friends. The Black Templars hide out in their Rhino while Logan lets lose a battlecry to terrify even orks, granting all those nearby wolves more attacks; Skull pack uses their Wolf Standard. Everyone charges into the fray, the Grey Hunters alone taking 40 preferred enemy attacks, rerolling 1s on their to-wound rolls. Combined with the Wolf Priest and the non-fist wolf guard from Logan's squad (also preferred enemy) only 2 Nobs stand to hit back. Arjac, Logan and the other fists/hammers finish off Grotsnik and the remaining Nobz while Ghaz kills a few Wolf guard--he fails enough No Retreat! saves that combat resolution kills him. Grey Hunters ftw.
Nearby the furious charging lightning claw/hammer mixing Chaplain'd Vow of preferred enemy-ing assault terminators disembark from their Crusader do what they do best: multicharging the nob squads resulting in nearly all the nobz dieing. On the Thunderwolf side of things, the Fenrisian Wolfscreen lays into the mob of Boyz while Valkur has to spend his 12 Wolf Claw attacks to take down the Boss that had picked Canis out, or risk getting ID'd. Success! Combat continues to swing in my favor, despite taking heavy pup losses. Suck on Fearless saves, orks!
Turn 4
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(I have to apologize, I came back to this 3 months later in an effort to finish it, but my memory is a little fuzzy, some details may be incorrect for not-Space Wolves) Both sides agree that because of time restraints this will have to be our final game turn. With that in mind, Orks descend upon everything.
Having turbo-boosted last turn, Zadsnark and his Nob Bikerz move into position to wreck the freshly dropped Templars and push them off the shrine objective, presumably also hoping to aid the Green Tide on that side of the board. Battlewagons move up, parking as much of their bulk over objectives on the opposite side of the field as they can fit. Deffkoptas move to intercept advancing chimeras while the Skullhamma backs away from Logan, Njal and a handful of Wolf Guard. The remaining Stompa tries to make itself relevant, but can't manuever around several stationary hydra flak placements (It's predicament for the last turn, also). Combat goes as expected, with Zadsnark da Rippa rippa-ing up the Black Templars and consolidating onto their desired objective. In combat, the last rune priest finally falls. Ork bodies fly as the cavalry rips up the last of the Green Tide--reduced to about 9, they fail their morale check horribly and are swept underneath the fury of tooth, claw, and steel. The Templar's Assault Terminators finish with their Nobz on the other side of the board, marching toward the battlewagons.
Our final turn is a fairly straightforward affair. All our shooting, except for maybe 1 Chimera is able to shoot and through the combined firepower of several long fangs, multiple armor detachments, and assorted other heavy weapons bikers, nobz, koptas, buggies, and all manner of greenskins are swept away in a torrent of fire. What few remain are descended upon rapidly by the surviving cavalry, who only took nominal losses this game, conveniently placing a full-strength thunderwolf unit on that objective. The Templar terminators and Skull Pack both assault the battlewagons, trashing the ork vehicles and claiming another objective for the Imperium.
In the end, there were 2 objectives taken by each side. Time constraints kept the fight from going on longer, but through reserves and careful sacrifices we'd maneuvered the greenskins into a beatable position and had enough momentum to push them back off the planet. However, for the purposes of this battle, Armageddon remains with somewhat of an Ork problem.
Cause I have it with every batrep, here's the list I used
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1x Wolf Lord Valkur w/1 wolf: 265 (Saga of the Warrior Born, stormshield, wolf claw, runic Armor, melta bombs)
1x Wolf Lord Magni w/2 wolves: 270 (Saga of the Bear, Storm Shield, Thunderhammer)
1x Canis Wolfborn w/2 wolves: 205
3x Thunderwolves: 205
1x Iron Priest w/ 4 Cyberwolves, Wolftooth Necklace: 165 - Sverrir
Lone Wolf Vali - Chainfist, Storm Shield 1 wolf - 95
Chainfist Lone Wolf, 1 wolf - 95
10 Man grey hunter squad, Wolf Banner, 2 Melta guns - 165 Skull Pack
10 Man Grey Hunter Squad, 2 Plasma Guns - 160 Wolfbones
4 Multimelta Long Fangs - 115 Sunwolf Pack
3x Missile/ 2x Lascannon Long Fangs- 170 Hagalaz
3x Missile/ 2x Heavy Bolter Long Fangs: - 130 Tiewaz
10x Wolf Guard (Hammer/Storm Bolter termniator; Fist/combi melta; combi melta/power weapon; Arjac Rockfist; Terminator/Cyclone; Terminator/Wolfclaw/AC; Combi plasma/terminator/wolf claw; 2x Vanilla, 1x storm bolter) - 538
8x Fenrisian Wolves (one cyberwolf) - 72
Logan Grimnar: 275
Njal Stormcaller in TDA: 270
Rune Priest Tyr: 100 (jaws/Lightning)
Rune Priest in TDA: 120 (Hurricane/Jaws)
Wolf Priest: 100
What'd we learn: I gained a newfound respect for the Wolf Priest. It's hard to fit him in a list (because of what competes with those slots at his points), but what I'd glossed over as a 'meh' unit actually exceded expectations. Everything else performed exactly as I'd expected it to--I was disappointed having to divert Valkur's attacks onto that Warboss, but he fufilled his saga (he did not meet my goal of reaching a 30 total attack count in one turn, however! Sadface!)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
While we're at it, this was my list for that battle: Spoiler
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Apocalypse List
3500 points (3250)
Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport
Company Command Squad - 130
-Master of Ordnance
-Vox-caster, camo cloaks
-Power weapon, missile launcher team
Techpriest Enginseer - 50
-Melta bombs
Storm Trooper Squad - 185
-Five additional storm troopers
-Power weapon, flamer, grenade launcher
Veteran Squad - 230
-Sergeant Harker
-Demolitions
-2 flamers, meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer
Armored Fist Platoon - 25
-(Following three squads)
Veteran Squad - 185
-Demolitions
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
Veteran Squad - 155
-2 flamers
-Heavy flamer
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer
Veteran Squad - 140
-Three grenade launchers
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy bolter turret
Veteran Squad - 135
-Forward Sentries
-Vox-caster
-Three grenade launchers, missile launcher
Infantry Platoon - 300
-Platoon Command Squad - 70
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon team
--Power fist
-Infantry Squad - 75
--Lascannon team
--Power weapon
-Infantry Squad - 80
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon team
-Heavy Weapons Squad - 80
--Three autocannons
Hellhound flame tank - 130
Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons
Manticore rocket launcher - 190
-Camo netting
Baneblade - 525
-Command Tank
Hydra support weapons platform - 50
Hydra support weapons platform - 50
Hydra support weapons platform - 50
You may notice wargear bloat; I don't think I used either demolition charge. To be honest, the undercosting to get a strategic asset was partly necessity; I was almost out of models fielding this. I could do better now, with the addition of another Hellhound chassis and a Basilisk to my army, but it was cutting it very close then.
The Manticore was the real key to my strategy in this game; the Baneblade was pretty window dressing and a big distraction, the fate of which was entirely expected since it was the only superheavy we had. Bo understandably (since it isn't his army) leaves out that the Manticore did an impressive amount of work over the course of the game, rolling three blasts twice out of four turns and demolishing several Trukks full of lootas as well as putting a dent in the second Green Tide before it got to the shrine.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
So, I did manage to test play Tau last weekend, against, conveniently, another new kid at the GW store. So, what I learned...
I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either. Luckily, since I didn't purchase anything, I don't lose anything by switching armies.
So, I might try the Space Marines next.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moskstraumen
So, I did manage to test play Tau last weekend, against, conveniently, another new kid at the GW store. So, what I learned...
I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either. Luckily, since I didn't purchase anything, I don't lose anything by switching armies.
So, I might try the Space Marines next.
Personally, I fear and loathe Tau. Probably something to do with those thrice-cursed S10 AP1 railguns.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
They are the standard. Plus there's all sorts of sub factions to them which is nice.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moskstraumen
So, I did manage to test play Tau last weekend, against, conveniently, another new kid at the GW store. So, what I learned...
I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either. Luckily, since I didn't purchase anything, I don't lose anything by switching armies.
So, I might try the Space Marines next.
Yeah, folks aren't kidding when they tell you that Tau are bad at assault. They are, quite literally, the single worst army in the game at it. If dying instantly whenever anything gets within assault range bothers you, Tau are definitely not the army for you.
They can manage to be fairly durable at range though. You just need to kit them out properly and make good use of cover/JSJ. Their tanks, which is to say Hammerheads, in particular have a reputation for being nigh-invulnerable when outside Melta range if used properly.
I'd recommend figuring out how you want to play before you choose what flavour of marines you want to pick up, some of them have very different playstyles.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moskstraumen
I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either.
You're new to the game. 4+ armour is quite good. You don't really know what a 'ranged beating' is unless you've got 5+ or less.
Armies that Assault and Range perfectly well;
[Dark/] Eldar. Always my first pick when somebody asks for a new army. I don't like people choosing Space Marines immediately, and [Dark/] Eldar are still 'good at everything' anyway.
Chaos Space Marines or Space Wolves;
Basically the same reasons, so I'll lump them together. Good shooting. Solid Assault. On the front foot or back foot. In the new/casual meta-game, I'd recommend Chaos Marines. But, on the other hand, when you know what you're doing (more importantly, when your opponents know what they're doing), and/or when you have currency to spend and get 'fiddly bits', Space Wolves are a bit better.
Orks. Build everything shooty, then Assault anyway. The only Sluggas that should be found in your models should be on AoBR models which you can't change. Another bonus, they're in AoBR, which gets you a solid core to your army. The only problem with Orks is that they don't cope well against 2+ armour saves.
Tyranids. But only if you've got lots of money.
Space Marines don't really Assault well. Or, at least, nowhere near as well as they should.
Blood Angels don't shoot well. Well, they can, but then you're not playing Blood Angels, and you're more like Orks in Power Armour with guns that can Assault if they feel like it. And Space Wolves do that better.
Grey Knights? For a new kid? No. Just no.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tome
Yeah, folks aren't kidding when they tell you that Tau are bad at assault. They are, quite literally, the single worst army in the game at it. If dying instantly whenever anything gets within assault range bothers you, Tau are definitely not the army for you.
They can manage to be fairly durable at range though. You just need to kit them out properly and make good use of cover/JSJ. Their tanks, which is to say Hammerheads, in particular have a reputation for being nigh-invulnerable when outside Melta range if used properly.
I'd recommend figuring out how you want to play before you choose what flavour of marines you want to pick up, some of them have very different playstyles.
See, I thought I had picked that out. I really do like the idea of a very "shooty" army. I knew that assault wouldn't be good, but I didn't realize it would be that bad. If I could test it some more, maybe with larger armies (do they let you do that? For reference, I was playing with one CO and two troop squads), I might be able to try some of your strategies and other ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
You're new to the game. 4+ armour is quite good. You don't really know what a 'ranged beating' is unless you've got 5+ or less.
Armies that Assault and Range perfectly well;
[Dark/] Eldar. Always my first pick when somebody asks for a new army. I don't like people choosing Space Marines immediately, and [Dark/] Eldar are still 'good at everything' anyway.
Chaos Space Marines or Space Wolves;
Basically the same reasons, so I'll lump them together. Good shooting. Solid Assault. On the front foot or back foot. In the new/casual meta-game, I'd recommend Chaos Marines. But, on the other hand, when you know what you're doing (more importantly, when your opponents know what they're doing), and/or when you have currency to spend and get 'fiddly bits', Space Wolves are a bit better.
Orks. Build everything shooty, then Assault anyway. The only Sluggas that should be found in your models should be on AoBR models which you can't change. Another bonus, they're in AoBR, which gets you a solid core to your army. The only problem with Orks is that they don't cope well against 2+ armour saves.
Tyranids. But only if you've got lots of money.
Space Marines don't really Assault well. Or, at least, nowhere near as well as they should.
Blood Angels don't shoot well. Well, they can, but then you're not playing Blood Angels, and you're more like Orks in Power Armour with guns that can Assault if they feel like it. And Space Wolves do that better.
Grey Knights? For a new kid? No. Just no.
I suppose I could try Eldar. From reading your army guides, it seems like the "horde" armies (Tyranids and Orks) wouldn't do too well with me. Due to a lack of funds. And the Space Wolves/Chaos Marines sounds like a good idea, too.
Hoo-boy, this is a time-consuming hobby, isn't it? :smallsmile:
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moskstraumen
See, I thought I had picked that out. I really do like the idea of a very "shooty" army. I knew that assault wouldn't be good, but I didn't realize it would be that bad. If I could test it some more, maybe with larger armies (do they let you do that? For reference, I was playing with one CO and two troop squads), I might be able to try some of your strategies and other ones.
Ah, that might be something of your problem. Tau Troops are pretty bad, mostly due to being pretty badly overcosted (Fire Warriors) or not actually being good at their intended role (Kroot). The real power is in their Heavy Support (Broadsides) and Elite (Crisis Suits) choices. Still, I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner.
Normally test games at GW stores are done with the Assault on Black Reach set, which is Orks vs Space Marines. If they gave you your trial match with some other army then they might as well let you do it with a larger selection of it.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cheesegear
Blood Angels don't shoot well. Well, they can, but then you're not playing Blood Angels, and you're more like Orks in Power Armour with guns that can Assault if they feel like it.
My dakka baal predator disagrees with you :smalltongue:.
Tau are a pretty hard army to master seeing as they do suffer so much in combat. It just boils down to shooting and moving all the time. If you stop moving you get stomped. But that being said crisis suits are remarkably good in close combat. Charge with three and you are getting 9 str 5 attacks usually hitting on 4's. I frequently beat up guard equivalents in combat and have taken out a few vehicles this way as well.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricky S
Tau are a pretty hard army to master seeing as they do suffer so much in combat. It just boils down to shooting and moving all the time. If you stop moving you get stomped. But that being said crisis suits are remarkably good in close combat. Charge with three and you are getting 9 str 5 attacks usually hitting on 4's. I frequently beat up guard equivalents in combat and have taken out a few vehicles this way as well.
Yeah, moving and shooting is their thing, pretty much. The big problem is that their main troops choice, Fire Warriors, have to choose one or the other (thank you, Rapid Fire) unless the enemy is in assault range. Well, that and the fact that they shoot about as well as a Tactical Marine, which isn't so great when you consider their cost relative to the rest of their stats (worse than a Guardsman, but costs twice as much) and the fact that they can't take any sort of special or heavy weapon.
Guard are the second worst army in assault (Necrons/SoB are probably third). Crisis Suits, in sufficiently large numbers can take a single squad of Guardsmen. Except there's no such thing, because Combined Squads exists and Guardsmen are dirt cheap. They can maybe wreck light transports. But virtually every gun in the entire army has the same or better chance of doing so and you generally want to be as far from the enemy as possible and using your Jetpack move to get even further away. There is no other circumstance where you should be even considering Assaulting with your ~50 point, WS2 I2 Crisis Suits. And even then you shouldn't do it it puts you in assault range of anything else or leaves you stranded out in the open. Crisis Suits are tasty targets for high Strength, low AP weapons like Lascannons that ignore saves and cause Instant Death, they need their cover.
My Commander's Shield Drones have scored more assault kills than all the Crisis Suits in my army put together.
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Wait, why would you ever be assualting guardsmen if you could have your crisis suits flamer them instead?
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iyaerP
Wait, why would you ever be assualting guardsmen if you could have your crisis suits flamer them instead?
Well, flamers ARE assault weapons, generally speaking. And if the alternative is get shot by the 21 guys you didn't manage to kill with the flamers...