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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Oh right, the Water Tribes don't have to understand that the moon influences tides thru gravity. They can think "the moon is a goddess who is waterbending" and it doesn't change anything. My mistake.
The reason I find delving too deeply into bending genetics as distasteful is because of the danger of introducing a scientifically false worldview of our Earth into their world -- racism.
I'm not saying we're doing that in this thread already. I'm saying I see a cliff coming up on that horizon.
AFAIC, the 2 cartoon series have already shown that bending is not Mendelian, and I'm glad to leave it at that.
And stop saying "Oh you don't know they're id twins in that episode." That is complete nitpicking. If a cartoon shows you 2 kids who look exactly alike, and it is made known that they're twins, do you ACTUALLY think the cartoon is not depicting id twins? The writers are trying to misdirect you? For what?
When you go that far to refute evidence which contradicts you, you know you're grasping.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
The Avatar setting already has plenty of racism in the first series.
You know, what with the two nations at war demonizing each other.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Ehh in the Avatar Universe the Moon actually is a Goddess and not just a ball of rock. In the past they came to the planet and people actually knew about it, just became secret later on.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
IS the moon/yue an actuall Goddess? I though she was just a particularly powerful spirit... though I guess at some point the line between them starts to blur.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dusk Eclipse
IS the moon/yue an actuall Goddess? I though she was just a particularly powerful spirit... though I guess at some point the line between them starts to blur.
In the animistic/spiritualistic religions that the Avatar setting uses as a basis for its flavor, there is no difference. God or Goddess is just a convenient English translation of "powerful spirit" or "important anthropomorphized concept".
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hamlet
Or, you know, you could just not assume that "pre-modern scientific methodology" is equivalent to "ignorant, stupid, and incapable of analytical and empiracle thought."
Was that directed at me, because I didn't think my post promoted that view at all. :smallconfused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
The reason I find delving too deeply into bending genetics as distasteful is because of the danger of introducing a scientifically false worldview of our Earth into their world -- racism.
I wasn't aware that racism attempted to have a scientific base to it since the 1940s. :smallconfused:
As somebody else mentioned, multiple nations are at war and it's good propoganda to demonise the opposing side for the sake of morale. About the only science involved in that is psychology and doesn't have anything to do with the pseduo-science of eugenics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
AFAIC, the 2 cartoon series have already shown that bending is not Mendelian, and I'm glad to leave it at that.
Really? Explain the virtually continuous line of fire benders in the Fire nation royal family then.
Katara's lineage kinda throws a spanner in the works, hence why I keep on saying we need more information.
If you don't care about it, then why carry on debating it? I stated why some of us care about bender inheritance and to be honest, we're in a sub forum that promotes thinking and debating about popular media - you're going to end up with people who like cracking puzzles and understanding the rules about how things work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
When you go that far to refute evidence which contradicts you, you know you're grasping.
When you make assumptions based on limited information, it usually blows up in your face.
For the record, I'm not refuting that evidence - I'm merely stating that you shouldn't take it at face value, but still add it to the knowledge base we currently have.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Really? Explain the virtually continuous line of fire benders in the Fire nation royal family then.
Katara's lineage kinda throws a spanner in the works, hence why I keep on saying we need more information.
I am... not entirely sure we have enough information to say it's Katara's lineage that's the spanner. We have, so far: her ancestry; her (and an Avatar's, so results may be atypical) descendants; the Fire Nation Royal Family; and Toph and her adjacent generations. As well as two sibling-pairs of unknown relations with bending data.
Depending how you classify that, it could come out to four or seven data points; not really enough to start saying "this is what is typical".
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Was that directed at me, because I didn't think my post promoted that view at all. :smallconfused:
No, just at the thread at large.
It is a tremendous pet peeve of mine when people assume that people ignorant of common knowledge today must, perforce, be stupid.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kd7sov
I am... not entirely sure we have enough information to say it's Katara's lineage that's the spanner. We have, so far: her ancestry; her (and an Avatar's, so results may be atypical) descendants; the Fire Nation Royal Family; and Toph and her adjacent generations. As well as two sibling-pairs of unknown relations with bending data.
Depending how you classify that, it could come out to four or seven data points; not really enough to start saying "this is what is typical".
If bending is a reccessive trait, requiring transmission from both parents to be expressed, then that goes a fair way to explaining it.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
The Avatar setting already has plenty of racism in the first series.
You know, what with the two nations at war demonizing each other.
Nationalism =/= Racism
War =/= Racism
To confuse them is to inject Earth history into Avatar world.
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I wasn't aware that racism attempted to have a scientific base to it since the 1940s.
It's alive and well in case you haven't noticed. Popular pseudo-science, that is.
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Really? Explain the virtually continuous line of fire benders in the Fire nation royal family then.
Hmm, maybe because from the day these children are born, they are exposed to the best teachers/ masters/ personal trainers that money and power can buy? Coupled with a strong martial tradition of the royal court?
It's like asking why upper-class white kids have higher IQ than urban-slum black kids.
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If you don't care about it, then why carry on debating it?
Like I said I don't like the connotation how everything is automatically genetics. Bending involves wushia kung fu. Wushia kung fu involves spirituality, mysticism, and culture.
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When you make assumptions based on limited information, it usually blows up in your face.
For the record, I'm not refuting that evidence - I'm merely stating that you shouldn't take it at face value,
In a cartoon, we are shown 2 same-sex siblings who are identical to each other. The writers had no plot purpose for them other than to say "Look, one can bend and one cannot!" You're telling me not to take that as evidence that they are identical twins. In a cartoon.
This is not Twin Peaks. You are grasping at straws.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
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Originally Posted by
Kd7sov
... ... ... ... ... Can you back this up at all?
The only people observed to be particularly sexist, as a group, are the Northern Water Tribe. In light of the established fact that the Air Nomads included nuns (at the Eastern and Western temples), I don't see any reason Yangchen would have trouble.
I did say that I was speculating, dude.
Hell, we haven't even observed the Air Nomads, and have no ideas about how sexist or not sexist they are. All we know for a fact is that during Aang's time, there were no female monks. It seemed like a logical conclusion (and still does) that there were none then.
Can you source that claim of nuns at the Eastern and Western temples? I don't remember that coming up in the show. :smallsmile:
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
Nationalism =/= Racism
Hmm, maybe because from the day these children are born, they are exposed to the best teachers/ masters/ personal trainers that money and power can buy? Coupled with a strong martial tradition of the royal court?
It's like asking why upper-class white kids have higher IQ than urban-slum black kids.
Small nit-pick, but IQ has a genetic link, environment only effects the manifestation within the spectrum allowed by the genes in question.
A more accurate analogy would be SAT scores, which is what I think you were getting at.
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As for bending and genetics: I can't see how anyone who has seen the show could argue that bending is purely genetic.
I don't see how anyone who has seen the show could argue that bending has no genetic tie what so ever.
Bending is very unlikely to be a recessive trait. Benders in all four nations tended to rise up into wealthy and powerful positions. Male's would have power and position to choose the best and most suitable matches. Really the only time bending would be a detriment is in a time of war, and even then the average soldier seemed to be pretty well off compared to the average farmer.
Using pure genetics and logic, benders should wipe out the "inferior" species of non-benders simply by the slow process of evolution.
This doesn't happen, and seems to never have happened.
A big theme in the world is Balance, and I am expecting for the Balance of benders and non-benders to be a theme in Korra's series. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a finite amount of Bending Potential in the world and young children receive a portion of it based upon how they are prepared for it... culture - spirituality - natural talent.
I could see the genetic disposition as priming the child to awaken that power once they align to the correct spiritual, cultural, and philosophical source. I also imagine that this has to be done while still very young, otherwise the mind becomes to rigid to ever learn what it needs to learn.
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While speculation is fun, I don't expect to ever see it explained.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
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Originally Posted by
unosarta
I did say that I was speculating, dude.
Hell, we haven't even observed the Air Nomads, and have no ideas about how sexist or not sexist they are. All we know for a fact is that during Aang's time, there were no female monks. It seemed like a logical conclusion (and still does) that there were none then.
Can you source that claim of nuns at the Eastern and Western temples? I don't remember that coming up in the show. :smallsmile:
Eastern Air Temple
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...d_children.pngTattooed Air nomad nun
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Most of this thread has been arguing about the mechanics of Bending. While entertaining, it's going in circles. Allow me to summarize what we know from the show:
1) The capacity to bend relies on an innate attribute of a person. It's something you're born with or aren't, but it is stated by Word of God that it is not based on genetics. Possibly it's some other, different random chance, or it has to do with environmental factors. We don't know.
2) Actual Bending ability depends on training, discipline, and spiritual awareness of the particular element's attributes. See actual real-world martial arts training in Shaolin, Ba Gua, etc.
3) A Bender's element depends on their ethnicity (I use that term instead of nationality because that's strictly political and borders change or race because that's strictly genetic).
3b) In the case of mixed ethnicities (e.g. the Fire Ferret brothers or Tenzin's siblings), Bending elements between siblings can vary, but aside from the Avatar, no one can Bend more than one element.
I believe that summarizes what we actually know about what differentiates Benders from each other and from non-Benders.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
the air bender we kept seeing in aangs avatar-state flashbacks was female, wore the full garb, and had the tattoos.
for the record, we shouldnt be surprised the royal family has a bunch of fire benders regardless of genetics. if RL history is any indication, they'll just keep having kids till they get what they want.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
This debate is getting rather heated isn't it.
A present I think the only thing we can say about bending and heredity is that they aren't simple.
We have Katara with no immediate bender relations against Zuko who an entire extended family of benders. Of course I can't find mention of Toph's parents bending either so we have two cases of at least somewhat spontaneous bending. In another case Tenzin who could be considered "half" Air Nomad has exceeded his "full" Air Nomad father by siring three airbenders, to Aang's single airbender and two benders total.
And then here's a question, if bending is supposed to be genetic how can the Avatar be unique? If we are to take bending as four separate traits for example, there should be say dual-benders out there right? And if related how so and what locks out other potential bending. Any genetic explanation would also have to explain why only one type of bending can be expressed.
Nevermind that the Avatar concept itself is explicitly spiritual thus defies a completely rigorous genetic rule for bending. Whether its an exception or an indication of bendings inherent nature is an open question.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hamlet
If bending is a reccessive trait, requiring transmission from both parents to be expressed, then that goes a fair way to explaining it.
I considered this and it falls down with Katara's descendants.
If it were recessive, then all offspring from Katara and Aang would be benders, except they have a son (Bumi) that isn't.
One possible explanation is that Aang himself isn't naturally a bender and is only a bender due to his being the avatar (he is dominant/recessive), thus adding to the mound of evidence that any inheritance involving the avatar is atypical. :smallsigh:
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Originally Posted by
MLai
It's alive and well in case you haven't noticed. Popular pseudo-science, that is.
Taking your comment at face value and assuming it's not a backhanded remark about not being aware of racism, the studies of any particular desirable trait being tied to race are done very carefully to avoid this charge, at least the respectable studied are.
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Originally Posted by
MLai
[Snip possible explanation for number of benders in Fire Nation royal family]
I'll address this at the bottom.
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Originally Posted by
MLai
Like I said I don't like the connotation how everything is automatically genetics. Bending involves wushia kung fu. Wushia kung fu involves spirituality, mysticism, and culture.
In case you haven't been paying attention, I suggested a theory combining all of the above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
In a cartoon, we are shown 2 same-sex siblings who are identical to each other. The writers had no plot purpose for them other than to say "Look, one can bend and one cannot!" You're telling me not to take that as evidence that they are identical twins. In a cartoon.
Let's suppose your theory is correct and they are identical twins.
You have a pair of twin boys, who both have the potential to bend, but despite the same environment (education, exposure to native materials, etc), one can bend and the other can't.
This puts a hole in any sort of learning theory, any sort of hereditary theory, so all you're left with is an arbitrary assignment by the writers for ***** and giggles, all for a 2 second joke.
That theory works for everything we've seen so if you're happy with it, go ahead and accept it. :smallamused:
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
One possible explanation is that Aang himself isn't naturally a bender and is only a bender due to his being the avatar (he is dominant/recessive), thus adding to the mound of evidence that any inheritance involving the avatar is atypical. :smallsigh:
Well, he's an air nomad, so he'd be an air bender whether he was the Avatar or not.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
I considered this and it falls down with Katara's descendants.
If it were recessive, then all offspring from Katara and Aang would be benders, except they have a son (Bumi) that isn't.
One possible explanation is that Aang himself isn't naturally a bender and is only a bender due to his being the avatar (he is dominant/recessive), thus adding to the mound of evidence that any inheritance involving the avatar is atypical. :smallsigh:
Or merely that Aang himself only has one of the genes rather than both and passed on the non-bending gene to Bumi and the bending gene to Temzin.
EDIT: Yeah, realized that wouldn't work about 1 second after hitting the submit button.
Anyway, I'm of the opinion that there's both a genetic and a spiritual/educational component to bending. You have to have some of both in order to bend.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
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Originally Posted by
Randomguy
Funnily enough, because of this there was fanart depicting Korra riding the moon. Then people remembered the moon was Princess Yue, so now people are shipping Korra and Yue for this reason. I think there's fanart for that now, too.
Is it wrong that upon hearing this my first thought was "Why isn't Sokka involved?"
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hamlet
Anyway, I'm of the opinion that there's both a genetic and a spiritual/educational component to bending. You have to have some of both in order to bend.
Which puts Bumi as a really big question mark as by any sort of genetic inheritance he should be a bender and since he should have the same education and environment as his siblings, he would have expressed any bending potential he might have.
About the only possibility I can think of, is that he's completely unsuited for bending and has some sort of mental/spiritual block on his own ability. :smallsigh:
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Which puts Bumi as a really big question mark as by any sort of genetic inheritance he should be a bender and since he should have the same education and environment as his siblings, he would have expressed any bending potential he might have.
About the only possibility I can think of, is that he's completely unsuited for bending and has some sort of mental/spiritual block on his own ability. :smallsigh:
He's a black sheep.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Which puts Bumi as a really big question mark as by any sort of genetic inheritance he should be a bender and since he should have the same education and environment as his siblings, he would have expressed any bending potential he might have.
About the only possibility I can think of, is that he's completely unsuited for bending and has some sort of mental/spiritual block on his own ability. :smallsigh:
That seems to be most likely reason that fits the rest of how bending inheritence is shown in the series.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
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Originally Posted by
Reverent-One
That seems to be most likely reason that fits the rest of how bending inheritence is shown in the series.
Or that bending doesn't strictly follow any heredity rules.
Since this does not require us to speculate and invent a reason why someone isn't a bender by saying oh they are one.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
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Originally Posted by
Soras Teva Gee
Or that bending doesn't strictly follow any heredity rules.
Right, which is why I was agreeing with the idea of a spirtual/mental aspect.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Can we put the Seed Pods genome science (The one about having secret trait that could pop up in future generations) in the bender theory?
I though bending can be learned by anyone, like D&D wizards or real world skills.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
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Originally Posted by
hamlet
He's a black sheep.
or he had both genes, neither being able to express in the presence of the other.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Okay.
Bending is rare (in all societies that aren't pre-war Air Nomads). Can we agree on that?
We see multiple examples of families with more than one bender in them, often direct siblings or children.
Therefore, this implies that something is going on.
Maybe it's not genetic in a way we understand it. But it does appear to be hereditary in some cases.
Maybe being a bender causes some sort of change in your "spirit", and that makes it more likely for your children to have a similar change - but it's not genetic, it's spiritual.
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Originally Posted by
t209
I though bending can be learned by anyone, like D&D wizards or real world skills.
Um.
No.
Definitely not.
If anyone could learn to be a bender, why would there be such a divide between benders and non-benders? And how about people who can bend without ever having a tutor (like season 1 Katara)?
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nerd-o-rama
Most of this thread has been arguing about the mechanics of Bending. While entertaining, it's going in circles. Allow me to summarize what we know from the show:
1) The capacity to bend relies on an innate attribute of a person. It's something you're born with or aren't, but it is stated by Word of God that it is not based on genetics. Possibly it's some other, different random chance, or it has to do with environmental factors. We don't know.
2) Actual Bending ability depends on training, discipline, and spiritual awareness of the particular element's attributes. See actual real-world martial arts training in Shaolin, Ba Gua, etc.
3) A Bender's element depends on their ethnicity (I use that term instead of nationality because that's strictly political and borders change or race because that's strictly genetic).
3b) In the case of mixed ethnicities (e.g. the Fire Ferret brothers or Tenzin's siblings), Bending elements between siblings can vary, but aside from the Avatar, no one can Bend more than one element.
I believe that summarizes what we actually know about what differentiates Benders from each other and from non-Benders.
I agree with pretty much everything here. Most of the discussions about the source of bending potential has been overanalyzing and guesswork.
Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if we recieved some more insight into the question as to just what makes a bender capable of the art in the new series, given that one of the plot points is going to be the divide between benders and non-benders.
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Re: Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reverent-One
Right, which is why I was agreeing with the idea of a spirtual/mental aspect.
My mistake and apologies.