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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
I gotta say, it's a bit unclear. First it says explicitly all senses except touch. Then it goes on to list specific spells and senses. It could be ruled either way I guess, but I lean toward Ragevillain's interpretation. "All senses except touch" is pretty explicit, and it's an eighth level spell. He'd have to stay out of range of True Seeing, of course, so he can't move in until it's time to strike.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
I know that, my friend. Whether I'm in the range of true seeing, he can not ignore my hide check . That simple.
But I do not need my target approach me . I can not really see a problem with that . OMG , it's not difficult to understand, right ?
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
I know that, my friend. Whether I'm in the range of true seeing, he can not ignore my hide check . That simple.
But I do not need my target approach me . I can not really see a problem with that . OMG , it's not difficult to understand, right ?
Mindsight says otherwise
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Again, hide check is beaten by mindsight. I'm not sure why you're having trouble with this.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FearlessGnome
I gotta say, it's a bit unclear. First it says explicitly all senses except touch. Then it goes on to list specific spells and senses. It could be ruled either way I guess, but I lean toward Ragevillain's interpretation. "All senses except touch" is pretty explicit, and it's an eighth level spell.
It is clear that it blocks all senses except touch. Mindsight is a special sense and functions as blindsense .
But it's still no problem, just keep distance.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
It is clear that it blocks all senses . Mindsight is a special sense and functions as blindsense .
But it's still no problem, just keep distance.
Source for your opinion please
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
It is clear that it blocks all senses . Mindsight is a special sense and functions as blindsense .
But it's still no problem, just keep distance.
It does not function as blindsense. It functions much like. That is not the same thing, and it is not blindsense.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Dude, it's not hard to understand. Really expensive .
What part do not you understand?
Block all senses except touch.
This really funny because it is so clear and obvious . Any sense is blocked.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Dude, it's not hard to understand. Really expensive .
What part do not you understand?
Block all senses except touch.
This really funny because it is so clear and obvious . Any sense is blocked.
Mightsight isnt a sense soooo again, source your opinion that mightsight functions like blindsense or admit youre wrong, buddy.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Any sense is blocked.
After this thread hits 50 pages, I nominate this as the subtitle for the next one.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Warning: This post deals with RAW that blatantly disregards RAI
Quote:
This powerful glamer functions like invisibility (PH 245), except that it masks image, scent, and sound alike, concealing the subject from all senses except touch.
This line is rather unambiguous. Every means of detection that counts as a sense is defeated by Superior Invisibility. The only ambiguity here is if a means of detection counts as a sense.
Quote:
Superior invisibility renders the recipient immune to detection by ..., although creatures under the effect of the spell can be detected by true seeing.
This line is quite ambiguous. True Seeing defeats Superior Invisibility but in which manner:
"Can be detected by X" could refer to having X as a sufficient condition of detecting someone that is tagged by Superior Invisibility.
"Can be detected by X" could refer to senses that use X ignoring Superior Invisibility
"Can be detected by X" could refer to X as being sufficient to allow previously mentioned senses to ignore Superior Invisibility.
etc.
Some of these meanings have Superior Invisibility make you easier to see, others have Superior Invisibility continue to work against several tricks despite True Seeing.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Can we walk it out, please?
If it was only Mindsight v Hide, Mindsight would win, no check needed.
If it was only Mindsight v Superior Invisibility, Superior Invisibility would win, right?
Now, True Seeing defeats Superior Invisibility, allowing him to be perceived by all senses, including Mindsight. Mindsight, which can now perceive him, obviates the need for a spot check.
So as long as he stays out of range of True Seeing (Usually 120 feet), Superior Invisibility wins, right? Or is there something here I'm not following?
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Friend, this is not ambiguous . Blocks any sense except touch is simply clear and objective .
It is clear that they are using their own interpretation to reverse things .
Only touch sense can work against superior invisibility.
Mindsight is not a special sense? wtf!
As already said, just keep the distance and the problem is solved .
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
If we're going by pure RAW, no matter the silliness (and given the cheese level of the build in the OP, we are) then having true seeing allows you to detect subjects of superior invisibility, period. As soon as you cast true seeing you immediately detect all creatures in the multiverse using superior invisibility.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FearlessGnome
Can we walk it out, please?
If it was only Mindsight v Hide, Mindsight would win, no check needed.
If it was only Mindsight v Superior Invisibility, Superior Invisibility would win, right?
Now, True Seeing defeats Superior Invisibility, allowing him to be perceived by all senses, including Mindsight. Mindsight, which can now perceive him, obviates the need for a spot check.
So as long as he stays out of range of True Seeing (Usually 120 feet), Superior Invisibility wins, right? Or is there something here I'm not following?
The wording of superior invisibility doesn't require you to be within range of the true seeing, just that the other person is affected by it.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LTwerewolf
The wording of superior invisibility doesn't require you to be within range of the true seeing, just that the other person is affected by it.
I see. Yes, I follow that logic. Personally, in a real game I would never accept that reading, but by pure RAW, yes, you are quite correct. Thank you for explaining.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Friend, this is not ambiguous . Blocks any sense except touch is simply clear and objective .
It is clear that they are using their own interpretation to reverse things .
Only touch sense can work against superior invisibility.
Mindsight is not a special sense? wtf!
As already said, just keep the distance and the problem is solved .
You have yet to provide a source for you very loud opinions there, buckwheat.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FearlessGnome
I see. Yes, I follow that logic. Personally, in a real game I would never accept that reading, but by pure RAW, yes, you are quite correct. Thank you for explaining.
At most tables it's a ridiculous idea, but this thread is pure RAW.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Just keep the distance . And the problem is solved
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Just keep the distance . And the problem is solved
You would need to be outside of mindsight distance, which can be a rather ludicrous distance. I believe 1 mile is pretty standard among high op, and further in TO. That's further away than reliable sight and most of the abilities yours would be using. That does not sound like a solved problem.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Just keep the distance . And the problem is solved
Not the problem of you claming this build will beat any other......
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Just keep the distance . And the problem is solved
Why? Having true seeing up defeats superior invisibility. There is no mention of range involved when superior invisibility is defeated by true seeing. Superior invisibility only checks whether or not someone is under true seeing. If someone has true seeing, they can detect the creature. It says nothing about range.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Mindsight is blocked by Superior Invisibility.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Mindsight is blocked by Superior Invisibility.
Not with trueseeing, no. I guess this is where you're stuck and we can't move on. Let us know when you come to terms with the idea that you cannot negate the buff on someone else.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Flickerdart
Why? Having true seeing up defeats superior invisibility. There is no mention of range involved when superior invisibility is defeated by true seeing. Superior invisibility only checks whether or not someone is under true seeing. If someone has true seeing, they can detect the creature. It says nothing about range.
LOL.
It was funny =)
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Ragevillean, you dont know the basic of D&D in brazilian portuguese. Please, dont try to play in english. No jokes, just dont try.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
Mindsight is blocked by Superior Invisibility.
Explicit source for your opinion, or stop with the broken record act
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Honestly the ambiguous "noun, noun, and noun that verb, verb, or verb noun or noun" is less ambiguous than True Seeing's effect on Superior Invisiblity. (Aka Touchsight vs Psionic Mindblank) And that line can be:
"noun, noun, and (noun that verb), verb, or (verb noun) or (noun)"
"noun, noun, and (noun that verb), verb, or (verb (noun or noun))"
"noun, noun, and (noun that verb, verb, or (verb noun)) or (noun)"
"noun, noun, and (noun that verb, verb, or (verb noun) or (noun))"
"noun, noun, and (noun that verb, verb, or (verb (noun or noun)))"
"noun, noun, and (noun that (verb, verb, or verb) (noun)) or (noun)"
"noun, noun, and (noun that (verb, verb, or verb) (noun) or (noun))"
"((noun, noun, and noun) that verb), verb, or (verb noun) or (noun)"
"((noun, noun, and noun) that verb), verb, or (verb (noun or noun))"
"((noun, noun, and noun) that verb, verb, or (verb noun)) or (noun)"
"((noun, noun, and noun) that verb, verb, or (verb noun) or (noun))"
"((noun, noun, and noun) that verb, verb, or (verb (noun or noun)))"
"((noun, noun, and noun) that (verb, verb, or verb) (noun)) or (noun)"
"((noun, noun, and noun) that (verb, verb, or verb) (noun) or (noun))"
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
umbergod
Explicit source for your opinion, or stop with the broken record act
concealing the subject from all senses except touch
This is not interpretation, it is written.
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Re: Revenge of the true master arcane(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragevillain
concealing the subject from all senses except touch
This is not interpretation, it is written.
And your source that mindsight is explicitly a sense like touch or taste?