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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Douglas
Spoiler
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Unless Sapphire Guard already knows about Spaarti Clones, which I doubt, the name is a spoiler in light of the Spaarti Cylinders that are still being kept mysterious at this point in this story.
But I thought those were a special kind of Italian cheese. I mean, isn't that what is supposed to be?
Joke finished, yeah, it probably should be in spoilers. I know, considering I got chewed out for not properly putting items in spoilers. People have an obsession with that.
What can't or shouldn't be is that Luke is a Jedi. If you didn't already know that, then the story might be seriously confusing to anyone.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Jedi? Isn't that a type of cheese?
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Mechalich
It's worth noting that, by the time of the Thrawn Trilogy Stormtroopers in general, regardless of origin, are implied to be rare and the Empire has trouble training men to that level. Zahn created 'Imperial Army Troops' to represent the bulk of the Imperial ground forces, implying that Stormtroopers were an elite independent force something like the US Marine Corps (they were not the Empire's equivalent of the SS, that's a different entity called COMPFORCE).
It's not accurate to refer to the SS as stormtroopers either for that matter, although it's a common misconception. That was actually a different Nazi organisation called the SA (Sturm Abteilung or Storm Division), also known as the brownshirts. They were a paramilitary group of thugs that were mainly prominent in the early days of the Nazi Party before being superseded by the SS (Schutz-Staffel, which roughly translates to "Defence Corps" as they started out as the Nazi leadership's bodyguards) after the Night of the Long Knives purge. The SA in turn took their name from an elite corps of German troops from World War I that specialised in rapidly advancing and storming enemy trenches using commando tactics.
Although I expect Lucas just had the general popular concept of "Nazi Stormtroopers" as his inspiration, the WWI source arguably makes more sense as the basis for the Imperial Stormtroopers given that the first thing we see them do is successfully storm an enemy vessel.
COMPNOR was the Empire's equivalent to the SS, with COMPForce drawing specifically on the Waffen-SS's structure and relationship to the main military. They're also tangentially relevant to the thread as they were led by one of Thrawn's peers: Ishin-il-Raz, the lamest of the Grand Admirals.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Are you reading a copy which was printed for a market other than the United States? The character you're referring to is called Aves in every copy I've read, and on his Wookieepedia page(don't go there, I didn't link it because of spoilers.)
My mistake. Not sure why I did that.
CH30:
Wedge is onboard the Escort Frigate Larkhess being complained at by the cap'n. He endures it, understanding that trying to staff a 920 man ship with 15 crew is no picnic. He looks out at the surroundings and notices an A Class bulk freighter with no escort, and pricks up his ears. He scans it, but it comes up empty. As a freighter, it shouldn't be.
The Captain notices his distraction and drops his argumentative manner instantly, and looks into the ship. They say they've been jumped by pirates, which almost checks out, but Wedge orders Rogue Squadron to their ships anyway.
They move outside and look to scan the mystery freighter when it appears to explode. Instead, the cargo bay door has blown open and things are coming out.
On the rim of the station, Han picks up the call and is unlucky enough to take a hit from an ISD. Luke is stuck in the Falcon, so he's the gunner today. Han wonders what these cone things are and thinks of the mole miners.
On the bridge of the Chimaera, Thrawn has somehow detected the Millenium Falcon despite how many other ships are there. He's a bit annoyed.
Wedge and a wingman are fighting around a Star Cruise, when he notices a 'cone shaped thing' nestled up against the ship's hull. He tries to take a closer look and the ship fires on him. He has a scan for the cone things done, and spots one with four TIE escorts and follows it. The Millenium Falcon joins the fun, and Han now recognises the miners. They're supposed to latch onto battleships, burrow through the hull and take over, with four Stormtrooper crews. Because they're so undermanned, a takeover is feasible, although I'd still think it'd be a challenge to fly the cruisers out after you kill the crew with four people.
Luke suggests he go in after them, but on fifty ships that won't work so well. They patch in Sluis Van control, but they're too busy to help out. They target a specific one, and a spacetrooper comes out shooting. They eventually take his mole miner- the spacetrooper was listening in on their comms.
On the Chimaera, Pellaeon notes that the republic is putting up an impressive fight. They lose the starboard shield, and Thrawn pulls a neat trick of tractoring an assault Frigate to shield the gap. Nice.
39 mole miners have secured ships, 4 are still in battle, and eight are destroyed. Considering this satisfactory, Thrawn orders the TIEs to pull out.
Han and Luke are trying to disable the hijacked ships, but being warships, they're too well armoured to be taken out by lone fighters. They're considering lightsabres when Han realises something and calls Lando. As the original owner of the mole miners, he can control them remotely,so he turns them on. Since the miners are already close to the bridge, this quickly disables the hijacked ships, and is unlikely to be pleasant for the crews.
On the bridge, Thrawn is silent for a while and orders a withdrawal. Pellaeon is a bit surprised, because the book wants to take the time to take another shot at non Thrawn leadership. Pellaeon orders a withdrawal, wondering again what would have happened at Endor if Thrawn had been in command.
Well. They've been building towards this raid for two hundred pages, and it's a very good scene. It was a good plan, and wasn't even a terrible outcome for the Imperials, forcing forty three warships to be scuttled is a pretty significant blow even if they failed to steal them. It was pretty unlucky that the original owner of the miners happened to be on site at the time, or things could have gone very differently.
I did find myself wondering where the rest of the defenders were, much of the focus was stuck on the Falcon and Wedge. The Stormtrooper hacks their comms at one point, which is pretty impressive alertness in the middle of a giant space battle in picking out the exact ships that are his immediate concern.
The base defenses were engaging the imperials, but other ships would have escorts too, right? I hope the Captain of the Larkhess wasn't among the hijacked ships.
I like how low key the climax was, it makes perfect sense for Thrawn to target ships for theft and his mole miner plan was built on sound principles. A shipyards raid is compelling, it makes for good drama without deciding the fate of the galaxy. Thrawn is of the opinion that with the Emperor's treasure mountain, his victory is still inevitable, he was just unlucky. We shall see.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
So, Sapphire_Guard, now that you've read the book .. who is the Heir to the Empire? Thrawn? C'baoth? Someone else?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
Well. They've been building towards this raid for two hundred pages, and it's a very good scene. It was a good plan, and wasn't even a terrible outcome for the Imperials, forcing forty three warships to be scuttled is a pretty significant blow even if they failed to steal them. It was pretty unlucky that the original owner of the miners happened to be on site at the time, or things could have gone very differently.
Spoiler: Possibly post book spoilers
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It might be pointed out in the next book, but the ships are repairable, not completely scuttled, there's just severe damage to the bridges. It's not like Endor, where losing the bridge pulled a ship into the Death Star, Sluis Van is a shipyard, so they'd be able to stabilize the damaged ships and eventually repair them.
Glad you're liking the book, it's popular for a reason.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
OP Hasn't read last chapter yet, looks like, and finished the book.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
pendell
So, Sapphire_Guard, now that you've read the book .. who is the Heir to the Empire? Thrawn? C'baoth? Someone else?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
The mole miners.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
pendell
So, Sapphire_Guard, now that you've read the book .. who is the Heir to the Empire? Thrawn? C'baoth? Someone else?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Spoiler
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I'd argue it's multiple:
Leia and Luke as the heirs to Vader's legacy wrt the Noghri.
Leia's children as new heirs of Vader.
Thrawn as the heir to the military.
Arguably C'baoth as the heir to the Sith tradition (even though he doesn't think of himself as one).
But after it all plays out, the clear heir to the Empire is Pellaeon.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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So, Sapphire_Guard, now that you've read the book .. who is the Heir to the Empire? Thrawn? C'baoth? Someone else?
Thrawn seems the obvious candidate, unless Admiral Akbar is about to set himself up as Emperor.
CH32: The battle takes a while to wind down, as only the Stormtrooper that Thrawn specifically had evacuated got out, and the other spacetroopers went on a suicide run because they were not so lucky.
Captain Afyon, who is happily alive (I was hoping getting completely abandoned by his escort hadn't gone wrong), although he actually had to fight off boarders and thus is a very lucky survivor to not be hit by any plasma jets. Dammit, Wedge, you had one job!
He clarifies that the ships aren't scuttled like someone has already said, just in need of significant repairs, and that while he's okay with that, Fey'lya will not be.
A call from Coruscant comes through, and it's Leia summoning them all back. Admiral Akbar has been arrested for treason. Probably being blamed for using warships to haul cargo, which was admittedly a poor decision. There's a prospect of civil war, which won't be good, and it's possible that the Bothan has links to Thrawn as well.
To be Continued...
So that was the book. It was enjoyable enough that I might continue this with the sequel, although that will take a while to get hold of most likely.
I like how low key the final confrontation was, a simple logistical raid for ships, although Thrawn sank enough time and money into this that it's still a serious defeat.
Everyone is pretty much in character, it feels like the Star Wars verse, and a fair bit of thought went into this. I wasn't expecting C'Baoth to survive the book when he first showed up, I thought he was going to be the climactic mini boss, but we ended up spending a lot more time on Myrkr than I thought.
Biggest issue of the book remains that it is unwilling to allow Thrawn to get through a scene without one-upping whoever is standing nearby, subverting someone's expectations, or taking shots at non Thrawn Imperial Leadership. I'm not exaggerating much, it's in almost every scene he's in, and it got grating very quickly. His actual actions are mostly ok, but the book itself is pushing him so hard that it's actually undercutting him, making me feel like the things he's doing are granted by the author rather than earned by the character.
I get why, they had to sell him as a worthy successor to the Emperor and Vader, but it didn't entirely work for me so far. Maybe the sequels will change my mind.
Otherwise, I like Pellaeon whenever he's allowed to do something.
Still neutral towards Mara and Karrde, I'm sure we'll get to learn more about them.
We don't get to see what the Emperor's treasure mountain does, but apparently that's Thrawn's Death Star equivalent, his guarantee of victory.So whenever that's unveiled, this war is really getting going. With a civil war also brewing, this could be awkward for our heroes, so there's a fair amount in motion for the sequel.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Spoiler: Bonus trivia about Heir to the Empire! Nothing in here is actually a spoiler if you've read the book, but I'm popping it in here anyway in case some people would rather not read it. All lifted from the HttE entry on Wookieepedia.
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Timothy Zahn's working title for the book was Wild Card. Bantam vetoed this because it was too similar to Wild Cards, another series published at the time by Bantam. Zahn's next favorite title was The Emperor's Hand, which Bantam also rejected. Warlord's Gambit was also a potential title, but ultimately Heir to the Empire was chosen, which was suggested by sci-fi author Lou Aronica.
In addition, some of Zahn's original story elements were vetoed by Lucasfilm. Most significantly, the insane clone C'baoth was first intended to be a Dark Jedi clone of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
After Zahn had already begun work on the novel, Lucas Licensing requested that he incorporate some of the material from West End Games' Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game into his work, as well as keep continuity with it. Many important elements such as the Interdictor-class Star Destroyer originated in those sourcebooks.
Heir to the Empire was the first Star Wars book to refer to the galactic capital as Coruscant. George Lucas would later use this name as the official galactic capital.
This book introduced two major species: the Noghri and the Chiss. Both species frequently appeared in the New Jedi Order.
All of Timothy Zahn's books set after Return of the Jedi begin the same way as the films of the original trilogy: with a Star Destroyer streaking across space.
The 1996 Russian cover depicts events and characters from Dark Empire, such as the resurrected Palpatine, rather than characters from Heir to the Empire.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Glad you enjoyed it! Especially the whole "not destroying a galaxy-controlling superweapon every single novel" part. Spoilers: non-Zahn authors hewed a lot closer to the Original Trilogy in that regard in the pre-New Jedi Order novels and comics. This guy actually knows how to introduce plot elements and build up on them...of course, I also assume he had a three-book deal, unlike Lucas (but like, say, Kevin J. Andersen. And Disney).
Most of your criticisms are pretty valid other than the fact that I think we spent half this thread talking about whether the Chimaera being at the fake freighter ambush was a terrible idea or not, but I'm glad you liked the parts of the book I definitely liked. You'll be getting a lot more details on Mara and Karrde in the followups if/when you read them, so I highly encourage that.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Eh...that was mostly polite, and some back and forth is welcome, otherwise it's just me giving a lecture the whole thread. I still think that ambush doesn't quite stand up, but it's not really a big deal.
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This guy actually knows how to introduce plot elements and build up on them...of course, I also assume he had a three-book deal, unlike Lucas (but like, say, Kevin J. Andersen. And Disney).
It's evident with a lot of Star Warsy tie ins that they're restrained by the license (a lot of the newcanons are running into trouble because they're not allowed to spoil the upcoming films and/or TV show), and keeping straight such a vast collection of lore is borderline impossible anyway.This one had a fair amount of care put into it, and the relative freedom of being past the canon timeline, so he was fairly free to innovate.
@Peelee: Of those titles, I think Heir was the correct choice.
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All of Timothy Zahn's books set after Return of the Jedi begin the same way as the films of the original trilogy: with a Star Destroyer streaking across space.
And this right here is a beautiful touch.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
@Peelee: Of those titles, I think Heir was the correct choice.
I wholeheartedly agree, though I also liked Wild Card; both of them could potentially apply to several people, but apply best to Thrawn. Also, when he was shooting for Wild Card, I assume he wasn't going to use that name for Karrde's ship. Wonder what the original name for that was.
Also, yeah, I love that he starts his novels like the movies. Also, I'm sorry, that technically is a spoiler. A super minor one, and I think I got lucky in that you don't seem to mind, but still. Also, I should go back and see if he did it in the canon Thrawn novel when I get home, if hamishspence doesn't beat me to the punch.
Lastly, since the Interdictors came from game sourcebooks and Zahn was working on the book when they asked him to introduce things from them, it's entirely possible that Thrawn's attempt to capture Luke in the original draft, it may have addressed your concerns about the ambush better.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
So, Sapphire_Guard ... wanna tackle the next book in the series, Dark Force Rising?
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Also, I should go back and see if he did it in the canon Thrawn novel when I get home, if hamishspence doesn't beat me to the punch.
Challenge accepted :smallbiggrin:
The Thrawn novel does begin with a Star Destroyer - Venator-class in this case.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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So, Sapphire_Guard ... wanna tackle the next book in the series, Dark Force Rising?
Yes, but it's going to take me a few weeks to track it down, most likely. It's not really in print in local bookshops, and Amazon always takes a while to ship to me.
In other news, though, I have now read the newcanon [IThrawn][/I] novel (was holding off because I wanted to read Heir first. It's Thrawn with most of his hard edges sanded off. Couldn't do a chapter by chapter because it's a library book, and that would take too long.
My copy begins at a hut on a planet,not a Destroyer, for what it's worth,
although the characters involved have just left one.Spoiler
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If you don't count the Thrawn's memoirs segment
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
Yes, but it's going to take me a few weeks to track it down, most likely. It's not really in print in local bookshops, and Amazon always takes a while to ship to me.
In other news, though, I have now read the newcanon [IThrawn][/I] novel (was holding off because I wanted to read
Heir first. It's Thrawn with most of his hard edges sanded off. Couldn't do a chapter by chapter because it's a library book, and that would take too long.
My copy begins at a hut on a planet,not a Destroyer, for what it's worth,
although the characters involved have just left one.
Spoiler
Show
If you don't count the Thrawn's memoirs segment
If you have a smartphone, you can get it on Amazon kindle app.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
pendell
If you have a smartphone, you can get it on Amazon kindle app.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
I love my Kindle Fire for so many things. Reading books on it is not one of them.
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Originally Posted by
hamishspence
Challenge accepted :smallbiggrin:
Thanks! I... forgot.:smallfrown:
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Sorry. I'm an old fashioned soul. We could always talk about that ISD ambush for another few pages in the meantime?
@Peelee: Wild card for me is more something you say about an unpredictable third party than one one of the two sides, so it fits Karrde better than Thrawn anyway (even if his actual name was something else).
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
Sorry. I'm an old fashioned soul. We could always talk about that ISD ambush for another few pages in the meantime?
@Peelee: Wild card for me is more something you say about an unpredictable third party than one one of the two sides, so it fits Karrde better than Thrawn anyway (even if his actual name was something else).
A wild card doesn't necessarily have to be a third party, it could just as easily be on one side or the other. You are correct in that it generally refers to somebody or something who's behavior cannot easily be predicted.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
Sorry. I'm an old fashioned soul. We could always talk about that ISD ambush for another few pages in the meantime?
@Peelee: Wild card for me is more something you say about an unpredictable third party than one one of the two sides, so it fits Karrde better than Thrawn anyway (even if his actual name was something else).
I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from. However, I'd argue that C'Baoth can also very much fit the unpredictable third party, at least in HttE.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Keltest
A wild card doesn't necessarily have to be a third party, it could just as easily be on one side or the other. You are correct in that it generally refers to somebody or something who's behavior cannot easily be predicted.
I duly stand corrected.
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I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from. However, I'd argue that C'Baoth can also very much fit the unpredictable third party, at least in HttE.
I'm not sure, he was fairly easily handled by the Imperials so far, although from the title I expect (and hope) that will change in Dark Force Rising
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
I'm not sure, he was fairly easily handled by the Imperials so far, although from the title I expect (and hope) that will change in Dark Force Rising
I won't say, but I do look forward to that thread.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
PSA: Dark Force Rising has arrived today, so I'll be starting that soon. Be interesting to see where they go with the preliminaries out of the way, I'm hoping C'Baoth gets more to do this time from the title.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Without spoilering anything, he gets more spotlight storywise in both DFR and TLC than in Book one.
Also, I think DFR will be more to your liking given the points of criticism you mentioned so far.
Have fun!
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
That spoils that he gets through this book, actually, (barring flashbacks or something).
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Okay, so CH1.
We're back on the bridge of the Chimaera hovering over Myrkr, with assault forces ready to surround Karrde's compound from the last book. Pellaeon considers asking a question, but doesn't bother because by now he's learned that Thrawn will have a reason. Thrawn notices the unasked question and answers anyway, the attack is delayed so his spies can identify Karrde's contacts in Hyllard City and follow them to source. He's aware that the base is abandoned, but the attack might learn something and either way will gain some field experience.
On Myrkr, the commander has an internal snark at the fleet and advances on the base, correcting one wing. Nothing much happens, there's nothing there but ysalamiri.
Karrde is watching from a distance, upset at the destruction of his home. He's confident Thrawn won't spot them, Mara disagrees, but stays silent for now.
Back on the Chimaera, we learn that Thrawn is perfectly aware of Karrde's presence, because of course he is. There was a 'small twitch' in Hyllard City, but that's all we're told for now. There's an ambush ship ready, the Constrainer, which is an interesting name.
Back to the Wild Karrde, where Mara's Force senses are tingling. The pet vornskyrs break into the bridge and stare at Mara before they're talked down. Mara's Force senses are still tingling, and she fires up the engine (making them detectable to the Chimaera) They prepare to move...and an Interdictor cruiser drops out of hyperspace.
Hmm... An unescorted Interdictor cruiser chasing a light freighter...this seems oddly familiar somehow.
An Interdictor needs a little time to set up its gravity wells after emerging from Hyperspace, so they still have time to escape. They make it...just.
They're looking at Mara a bit oddly, but being still alive and free is a plus. Mara becomes uncomfortable, because her senses cycle in and out and usually force her to break cover from whatever identity she's using at the time. She still wants to kill Luke.
Back to the Chimaera, and Pellaeon wonders if Thrawn is going to execute someone again. He doesn't.
They're still trying to get warships, but no one is biting, and C'Baoth is complaining about not having Leia in hand. Thrawn says he will be 'taking a personal hand in the matter'. Pellaeon asks if that means he's taking the Noghri off the task, and suggests they won't like that. Interesting, as my impression was that Pellaeon doesn't know much or interact much with the Noghri.
The best soldiers in the assault are to be sent to Mount Tantiss, while they wait for the Myrkr spies to report in.
In a castle on Jomark, C'Baoth is admiring the landscape and wondering what he's just felt through the Force. Mara, I presume. He contemplates his life and his hazy memories, and misses his home, then gets distracted by an ISD arriving with another co ordination request.
Okay. Setup for future Thrawn/C'Baoth conflict, as well Thrawn's response to Karrde's betrayal. One of the Thrawn scenes where he's set up to one up everyone around him, and Mara's force sensitivity comes back in force. I didn't realise she had such a shaky command of the Force. Thrawn lays out his battle plans to help set up this book. We'll see how it pans out.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
Hooray! I'm excited for the new commentary. Especially since this is the book where, IMO, Thrawn becomes absolutely terrifying.
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Re: Reading Heir to the Empire
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Originally Posted by
Sapphire Guard
That spoils that he gets through this book, actually, (barring flashbacks or something).
I am not confirming or denying anything here. ;)
But given Star Wars is almost always very conventional regarding its buildup, one might assume that all main Characters, be they Pro or Anti, will survive until the grand finale or shortly before.
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Hooray! I'm excited for the new commentary. Especially since this is the book where, IMO, Thrawn becomes absolutely terrifying.
Agreed.