-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grey_Wolf_c
OK, then present a creature that sleep standing up.
Potted plants sleep standing up. So do Carillions. Treefolk, horses and cows sleep standing as well, though they aren't MitD candidates.
Vaarsuvius doesn't sleep, but she trances in a position where her eyes aren't lower than when she's standing. This may apply to other elves as well.
Then there are creatures like crocodiles or snakes that don't generally stand up tall while awake, so their eyes won't be lower when they're asleep. The Hunting Horror might be like that.
Belkar, being a halfling, is so short that his eyes are taller when he's sleeping on a bed than when he's standing on the ground. You may say that the bed is sleeping, but I don't see why the MitD couldn't have a bed in that box if he's the kind of creature who finds sleeping in a bed comfortable.
D&D creature statblocks won't tell you how a creature sleeps, just as they usually don't tell you if the creature has eyes. Like Miko says, “there aren't even rules for sleeping, you know”.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
We never see this.
I assume they're talking about the Lantern Archons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
The Protean has that eyes/mouth/limb thing, which directly contradicts one of its most prominent traits, and people are still searching for a comic that is half as good as the comic that
excuses the Hunting Horror’s weakness to light
None of them are actually on fire and even then Vaarsuvius is sweating.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Errorname
I assume they're talking about the Lantern Archons.
To be fair, he expects the light rays to hurt, which convinces the Archons they have business elsewhere before they'd fire a single one of those.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tzardok
I don't buy that. The same argument could be used to claim the MitD doesn't have eyes at all. After all, those are just shorthand for the emotions it expresses. In truth, it is blind and eyeless (uvuudaum supporters, take note.)
The Uvuudaum's biggest problem isn't eyes. It's that 30' radius DC47 confusion aura.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sky_Schemer
The Uvuudaum's biggest problem isn't eyes. It's that 30' radius DC47 confusion aura.
It is also worth pointing out that AFAIK no fluff says that the uvuu doesn't have eyes or mouth; just the official pictures of it. Where the illustrator got the idea, I don't know. It is also yet another example of someone reading back to me the cons section of a creature in the FBS as if it was some kind of killer argument. We've known for ages that uvuu might not have eyes or mouth. Anyone who likes the uvuu presumably already thought that the MitD eyes where tells for emotion, or was of the "I don't think the pictures are official" camp.
Grey Wolf
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grey_Wolf_c
It is also worth pointing out that AFAIK no fluff says that the uvuu doesn't have eyes or mouth; just the official pictures of it.
And it can also fall under the category of artistic license. Eyes are all you've got for showing emotion for a creature that is literally shrouded in darkness.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grey_Wolf_c
OotS runs on D&D rules until shown otherwise.
But don't take it from me, take it from Rich:
You want to claim that D&D alingment rules don't apply? Show comic proof that it doesn't. But as far as I am kown, you ain't got anything to find, since the comic very clearly runs on the alignment rules.
Grey Wolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tzardok
"You are trying"
That's about effort mattering, not original alignment.
We are pretty sure that MitD's original alignment is some sort of evil, but he's trying.
That's the sense in which D&D alignment doesn't apply in the comic, goblins are not necessarily evil, but Redcloak works at it.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
halfeye
"You are trying"
That's about effort mattering, not original alignment.
We are pretty sure that MitD's original alignment is some sort of evil, but he's trying.
That's the sense in which D&D alignment doesn't apply in the comic, goblins are not necessarily evil, but Redcloak works at it.
You do know that people can change their alignment in D&D, do you? Not even demons are always evil; that doesn't mean that alignment isn't a thing or objective.
And, "You are trying" doesn't mean that there isn't an absolute, objective standard for Good. It only means that you are trying to live up to that standard. So no, the alignment rules still apply, and Good and Evil can be judged objectively.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Errorname
I assume they're talking about the Lantern Archons.
Not to speak for anyone else but in my case no, I'm talking about the jungle scene. The ox taking the fact that Rich doesn't draw the creature as illuminated, thus eliminating the mystery and stopping the guessing game there, to mean that when he talks about loving the sunlight he means he loves it from arm's length...well, it illustrates well how different two people's concept of "standards" can be.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Metastachydium
The thing is, once more, that while it doesn't have to be all or nothing, the notion that
a. he is perfectly capable of doing the one thing that does in fact require deliberate effort and active awareness constantly;
b. except on two or three occasions when it is convenient for him not to be able to; and
c. he somehow does both in the Circus scene
is something I will consider highly dubious.
I do not think this accurately describes my position or what has happened.
I think it is plausible he can put on a face or limbs when he want to. Those are simple body parts-- you don't even need a specific species, and MitD has certainly seen enough creatures with faces and limbs. But he may have seen many other creatures he doesn't remember for some reason (the Astral Plane scene could be a clue to this, I think) and doesn't know he mechanically has the knowledge of, but at the crucial moment his subconscious reaches down and finds it.
(Or, like mashlagoo said, perhaps he understands he can change shape in some ways but doesn't understand he can access powers from other creatures.)
I do not understand at all what you mean by points b or c.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
We never see this.
This is literally the third panel of page 49 in Start of Darkness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
So rather than settle the issue of why the Protean is held to a different standard than every other character, you try to move on to different flaws of the example monster. I expected this, and it’s why I wanted to talk about the standard before bringing up a monster you could easily change the subject to.
I don't know what standard you're referring to. I think I've widely made my stance on the merits and flaws of every proposal very clear by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
The Protean has that eyes/mouth/limb thing, which directly contradicts one of its most prominent traits, and people are still searching for a comic that is half as good as the comic that
excuses the Hunting Horror’s weakness to light.
I do not think that is what #243 depicts at all. You are assigning meaning to unrelated strips and taking that meaning as objective fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
The Protean has that shapeshifting thing, which is supposed to be key to the story, and Rich can’t find a way to mention it in the story at all.
I don't know why you're saying "can't." Rich doesn't want to give away those powers is much more accurate.
Just like you did last time with "impossible."
Stop putting words in my mouth and stop misrepresenting my arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
Meanwhile, for the light weakness, Rich made it a thing that the monster always hesitates before going into the light
No, he doesn't.
You say I'm making up a story? You're denying evidence that is in the comic and trying to enter evidence that doesn't exist. You're changing what I actually said so you can argue against it more easily. You are doing far more invention than I am in an attempt to make your case.
I am uninterested in attempts solely designed to disprove a species. As I've said somewhere between five and three hundred times, there is an answer. You can decide any of the flaws of any of the proposals are disqualifying if that is the standard you choose to hold. But. There. Is. An. Answer.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I do not think The Author is concealing attributes to make the guessing game harder to solve. If there is an attribute of the creature that is 'normal' for that creature, I believe The Author would depict it as a normal part of the comic rather than conceal it because someone might recognize it as an attribute of a particular creature. For example, if MitD was a cow, hoofprints and cow-pies would be evident. The Author might not have Xykon step in one in every comic, but they would be about as common as cows make them.
In that vein, what has he made obvious about MitD? Perhaps the Demon Roaches are a clue, and if so, both Hunting Horror and Protean utterly fail the Demon Roach test. Neither is associated with stench, filth, or anything else which might attract such creatures.
He has also had multiple characters remark that they know what MitD is, so it is very likely that he is a much more common creature type than any of the current favorites.
I recommend begining with the basics. What kind of creature, by its nature, would be attractive to Demon Roaches? After that, work on the big things.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I don't think the demon roaches are necessarily linked to the MitD's species; I think they're linked to his personal eating habits. Redcloak blamed the messes he kept leaving in the kitchen for drawing the roaches in. I'd suspect leaving crumbs and messes all over was a regular problem. Though now, the roaches seem like they're probably just still here for fun.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brian 333
If there is an attribute of the creature that is 'normal' for that creature, I believe The Author would depict it as a normal part of the comic rather than conceal it
It could be neither. The Giant just might be putting the MitD in a situation where the power doesn't come up. For example, maybe the MitD can to tear prey to bits with the sharp metal spikes on his drum. But he's fed every day by his captors, first in the circus and later by Team Evil, so he never has to hunt. We thus won't see how well he can tear prey apart until late in the comic. And if he swallows Redcloak whole, we get surprised by the chunks of flesh and bone fragments flying everywhere. Or the MitD could be a demon vulnerable to silver, only nobody tried to hit him with a silver weapon yet.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OvisCaedo
I don't think the demon roaches are necessarily linked to the MitD's species; I think they're linked to his personal eating habits. Redcloak blamed
the messes he kept leaving in the kitchen for drawing the roaches in. I'd suspect leaving crumbs and messes all over was a regular problem. Though now, the roaches seem like they're probably just still here for fun.
Start of Darkness retconned the "the roaches are there because of the creature in the darkness" thing anyway; in it, the roaches attach themselves to Xykon and Redcloak long before Redcloak meets the creature in the darkness.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
(Or, like Tzardok said, perhaps he understands he can change shape in some ways but doesn't understand he can access powers from other creatures.)
That was mashlagoo who said that, not me.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brian 333
He has also had multiple characters remark that they know what MitD is, so it is very likely that he is a much more common creature type than any of the current favorites.
I dunno. One of those people is Redcloak, who we know reads lots of sourcebooks and is well-studied. I take it the other you mean is O-Chul? And he wished to consult Azure City's "most learned" scribe about "questions about how we escaped."
If anything, I draw the opposite conclusion-- the only people who seem to know what MitD is are or have access to well-read, scholarly, highly knowledgeable people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brian 333
I recommend begining with the basics. What kind of creature, by its nature, would be attractive to Demon Roaches? After that, work on the big things.
I think the whole point of the FBS list is to begin with the basics. That is to say, "Here are the actual things we've seen MitD do. Which creatures are plausibly capable of those things?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tzardok
That was mashlagoo who said that, not me.
Sorry, I could have sworn I even double-checked before posting that. I'll correct it.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sky_Schemer
And it can also fall under the category of artistic license. Eyes are all you've got for showing emotion for a creature that is literally shrouded in darkness.
Sure, but that argument could easily be considered incompatible with “nothing in the early strips contradicts my choice of creature which I made around strip #100”. Rich drew pre-species-choice MitD with eyes, and had made him fit in a certain space already, so I can’t see him picking a creature with no eyes at all, or a creature that’s 50 feet tall even as a baby.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
I think the whole point of the FBS list is to begin with the basics.
Only sort of. The original pre-FBS characteristics (strong, ugly, teleport) were "central MitD things, and we've had trouble finding all three at the same time" - the crucial bit being the latter; they served as decent filters because two out of three are relatively common, all three are relatively uncommon. So not so much "basic" as "rare in combination". Besides, we've piled on top a bunch of others that I wouldn't characterise as basic.
GW
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I still say that we can absolutely, 100% rule out everything from any D&D splatbook. Rich has said that, when the reveal comes, Monster-San will be recognized by the readers. He isn't writing to an audience of D&D nerds, and hasn't been since the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan. When he says that readers will recognize Monster-San, he means that people who aren't D&D nerds will recognize him.
Now, this criterion would maybe still allow for the most familiar of D&D monsters, i.e., the ones from Monster Manual I. But those, we've already been over with a fine-toothed comb, and none of them fits what we've seen Monster-San do. So we can rule them out, too.
Therefore, Monster-San is not something from any D&D book. I don't know why everyone assumes that he is: It's not like D&D books are the only places ever that monsters show up. Whatever he is, there might be D&D stats written down for his species somewhere (there are D&D stats for lots of things somewhere), but that's not his origin, and he's under no obligation to follow that statblock.
I will also add a prediction on when the reveal will be. He'll be revealed when Team Evil is fighting the Tarrasque, in the last encounter of this dungeon. I say this because, first, this dungeon is populated by tough monsters, with an emphasis on big brutes in honor of Kraagor, and the Tarrasque is famously the epitome of big brute monsters, so we can expect it to be the final encounter of the dungeon. And while we've pretty well ruled out Monster-San being the Tarrasque (Escape, intelligence), it's still a perennial and obvious guess, and so his reveal when confronted with the actual Tarrasque would be dramatically appropriate.
In addition to those two predictions that I'm almost certain on, I'll make a specific prediction that I think is very likely, but which could be wrong: Monster-San is kin to Godzilla. This one really does fit with everything. So far as I can tell, the only objection to it is that Godzilla isn't something that Rich created, but he explicitly told us that it wasn't something he created. Literally everything since 1928 is copyrighted, so if we rule out "anything copyrighted", then all that's left is very old myths.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chronos
Rich has said that, when the reveal comes, Monster-San will be recognized by the readers.
Where did he say this?
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
And the objections to things related to Godzilla are that no one's proposed anything related to Godzilla that can teleport, has any means of recognizing arcane and divine rituals, and is small enough to fit under an umbrella. Or any one of the three, as far as I know. So "related to Godzilla" fits as well as the tarrasque, which you acknowledge he can't be, for the same reasons.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chronos
Rich has said that, when the reveal comes, Monster-San will be recognized by the readers.
No he hasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chronos
He isn't writing to an audience of D&D nerds, and hasn't been since the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan.
So when he picked MitD, he was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chronos
When he says that readers will recognize Monster-San, he means that people who aren't D&D nerds will recognize him.
He hasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
And the objections to things related to Godzilla are that no one's proposed anything related to Godzilla that can teleport, has any means of recognizing arcane and divine rituals, and is small enough to fit under an umbrella. Or any one of the three, as far as I know. So "related to Godzilla" fits as well as the tarrasque, which you acknowledge he can't be, for the same reasons.
Technically the main godzilla-related proponent, Surfing Half-Orc (IIRC), proposed Minilla (aka Minya), which is godzilla's son (adopted, the wiki tells me), and is child-sized. Some film discontinuities make it unclear as to where godzilla is at any one time can be interpreted as teleportation, and it seems the filmmakers were never all that consistent with godzilla's height between movies, and sometimes within one, going more for the "it's cool, shutup" approach to storytelling. So if you combine all of them together, and squint quite a lot, maybe you can make the case that godzilla could somewhat fit. But I definitely don't buy it. I suspect that it relies heavily on ignoring a lot of other evidence that is definitely not supportive of MitD being godzilla, and was just never properly examined.
GW
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
This is literally the third panel of page 49 in Start of Darkness.
The third panel of page 49 does not show the Monster in the Dark at all.
You are assuming that the Monster in the Dark must be in the light in this panel, and that the Hunting Horror can never be in the light, when both of these assumptions are points under debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
I don't know what standard you're referring to.
The one we never got to make because Peelee wanted a monster on deck for Whataboutisms with no limitations on what would be considered germane.
How does the Protean explain this scene? We've never found a monster that can explain this scene, so no explanation is necessary? A Hunting Horror takes damage in light, so no matter how much it wants it, it's nervous about going out there.
And how does the Protean explain all the times it asks to be in the light or be let out of the box and desists simply because it's told it can't? A Hunting Horror is prone to following orders per its fluff.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
How does the Protean explain
this scene? We've never found a monster that can explain this scene, so no explanation is necessary? A Hunting Horror takes damage in light, so no matter how much it wants it, it's nervous about going out there.
Im sorry, what? The MITD is doing nothing but waiting for his cue and watching Roy beat up Xykon. Theres no explanation needed because any sapient monster can sit there and wait for something.
In order for a scene to warrant an explanation, it has to be something that actually excludes candidates in some way.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
The one we never got to make because Peelee wanted a monster on deck for Whataboutisms with no limitations on what would be considered germane.
I did not. I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion, but i have recognized, after many interactions with you, that i do not understand how you arrive at conclusions in general and due to this, do not feel it is productive for me to engage in protracted discussions with you, as i will invariably become lost.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
You'll find the information that a shy, eager-to-please, easily influenced young protean can be torn over whether he thinks he's doing what he's supposed to do or not in the same sourcebook that says that bald humans can be sarcastic and blond ones can think nakedness makes them invisible. It's two paragraphs above the section that details why a Hunting Horror's "waits in the darkness to kill for its master" can actually mean "has no desire to hurt anybody but is still bound to obey orders, except when he doesn't obey them, or forgets them, and only if he knows a modified Word of Recall."
Ox, if you want "limitations on what would be considered germane," then "Is he acting like a perfectly stereotypical member of his species here, can his behavior be explained by pointing to a page in a monster book rather than observing this specific character's personality?" would be the first to go.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sky_Schemer
The Uvuudaum's biggest problem isn't eyes. It's that 30' radius DC47 confusion aura.
I'm way behind on the discussion. But I have been mulling this as it's come up a few times. Would the confusion aura still apply if you couldn't see the monster, say, because he was wreathed in impenetrable magical darkness?
It doesn't solve the circus scene, admittedly, I am just problem solving and theory crafting. (I could see how artistic license could 'apply' a confusion aura with an array of effects, but I am not entirely convinced of that, and don't want to reignite a debate that I am sure has happened on many occasions already.)
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tubercular Ox
And how does the Protean explain all the times it asks to be in the light or be let out of the box and desists simply because it's told it can't? A Hunting Horror is prone to following orders per its fluff.
Do you just... genuinely not comprehend that the MitD is a person? And that people's personalities are, in fact, not defined by their species' statblocks?
This is supposed to be one of the major themes of the comic, looking at the goblins.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Neponde
I'm way behind on the discussion. But I have been mulling this as it's come up a few times. Would the confusion aura still apply if you couldn't see the monster, say, because he was wreathed in impenetrable magical darkness?
The aura's description doesn't say that you need to see it, nor does it include any fluff like "The creature's appearance drives you insane". Auras in general don't seem to require line of sight, so it most likely still applies.
-
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ruck
I do not think this accurately describes my position or what has happened.
I think it is plausible he can put on a face or limbs when he want to. Those are simple body parts-- you don't even need a specific species, and MitD has certainly seen enough creatures with faces and limbs. But he may have seen many other creatures he doesn't remember for some reason (the Astral Plane scene could be a clue to this, I think) and doesn't know he mechanically has the knowledge of, but at the crucial moment his subconscious reaches down and finds it.
(Or, like mashlagoo said, perhaps he understands he can change shape in some ways but doesn't understand he can access powers from other creatures.)
I do not understand at all what you mean by points b or c.
Okay. My argument is, that the single defining quality of a Protean is constant shapeshifting; and yet,
–the one thing the Monster consistently does is actively and deliberately use its most difficult to use pertinent innate ability, which is suppressing/counteracting that;
–except when it is very convenient for him to suddenly develop a special ability;
–except in the Circus scene where he feels that it is very important that he maintain consistent features, but is still an ever-boiling tide of flesh regardless.
So, he mostly maintains a shape/size/features set, which is somewhat unlike a Protean (a), which he only seems not to do when it is suddenly convenient to produce a wild transformation (b), but he is somewhat both "a form you are comfortable with" and "an ever-shifting tide of flesh" in the Circus scene (to explain both the constant features and the reactions)(c).