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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
Starswirl became a time traveler. Makes sense right? It's in the Journal. We don't know where/when he is, now.
HWE doesn't fit well in the canon timeline because it's not an actual single historical event. And it has many inconsistencies within itself because it's not an actual single historical event. It's a fable. Likely loosely based on multiple events in history.
Again, wth was that flag about? Animation error, sure. But in-setting, how do you explain it? Fact is, it's not actual history therefore nopony cares.
The unbelievability of the play as actual history is not because of the presence of fantastical creatures. Rather, it's because the world is coming to an end and there are depleting resources... and yet there is no war? Why aren't the tribes fighting each other for food and work slaves? Because it's a whitewashed allegory for children's consumption.
All of MLP adventure episodes deal with rampant magic and creatures, but they play out like actual events. The HWE play felt like a fable from head to hoof, and the characters in them felt like characters playing their roles.
It was presented as a play with many internal inconsistencies that the pony audience didn't care about. Because they all know it's a fable not a documentary. I can declare it as fictional and there is no weight of evidence against that declaration.
The EOH, otoh, are accepted as real and historical fact by ponydom. It's in the storybook introduction in S01E01.
What evidence is there that the EOH were ever used before the Sisters???
According to the Journal, Starswirl became a time traveling wizard. He could have learned about the EOH from future-Celestia.
I mean doomed in that if the world is allowed to progress naturally, i.e. without conscious and noble interference, it will immediately become a rogue planet devoid of life. In that manner, it's analogous to Camelot of legend. Hey that sounds like the capital! I seriously just noticed that.
THERE'S NO WAY Lauren Faust was thinking the same thing I just said...! :smalleek:
That's the whole point. Camelot died with Arthur.
You look at it and think "Well that's just un-pony! That's not why I watch this show!"
I'm saying like it or not, this is the world of Equestria. It is exactly like Camelot of Arthurian legend, the ephemeral beacon that shone against the black void of barbarity. It's the Hopeless Courage that is the theme of LOTR, beautiful in its tragic nobility. The show is the show, but Equestria is Equestria. It's unsuitable for the primary demographic, but there's nothing un-pony about it.
And the above is what Celestia is fighting to change; she's fighting against the fate of her world. That's where she's special, not because she upstages a few unicorns.
HWE actually fits perfectly into the timeline. It's Starswirl who doesn't, and yeah him becoming a time traveler solves all of those problems. There are other timeline problems, but I can't actually remember what they are.
Because how many plays actually have the proper historical flag made up? Remember the events are over a 1000 years old and predates Discord. The common pony likely doesn't know or care what the flag originally looked like.
There was no war because they knew they couldn't win a war. Fighting a war would just ensure that if the blizzard actually stopped they wouldn't be able to recover at all. And on that note, a howling blizzard is not a good time to fight a war. For the longest time in human history people just didn't fight in winter at all. And real life horses don't exactly have the best footing in deep snow and ice. Plus finally, they were ponies. Them doing the smart and peaceful thing is hardly unbelievable. (Or perhaps because food is traditionally used as a weapon, they didn't actually have the means to fight a war)
Yes I agree that it's likely a fable, and a simplified version of what actually happened to boot. However there is a difference between saying it's a fable which is based on real life events, and it being complete fiction.
So is the Fire of Friendship which we do see in present time. Even if you throw out the majority of the play you still have the Fire of Friendship being discovered before Celestia ruled.
The Elements of Harmony are not the only time that Friendship is used as a source of Power. On that note, Starswirl's spell does not necessarily require the Elements of Harmony. Remember, they were in a completely different form originally and they were connected to Luna and Celestia anyways. And assuming that he learned it from Celestia is just making stuff up. How about this? Starswirl actually learned about the Elements from Twilight Sparkle in the yet unseen future. It has about as much evidence as your theory. Once you get into the realm of making stuff up anything goes.
Key point: THERE IS NO NATURALLY IN THE PONY UNIVERSE! Things explicitly do not run on the same system as Earth does. Birds don't migrate without help, The seasons don't change, the sun doesn't move, things don't grow. The only place that works that way is the Everfree forest, which is seen as an abomination. We have no idea what the world would look like without ponies, but it's not a system that can arise naturally because it makes no sense on a biological level. The world might become a dark barren place without ponies, or perhaps is just ends up like the Everfree forest. Perhaps instead of the sun going down, it stays stuck in a twilight position. Perhaps that scene where we have both the sun and moon in the sky is what it looks like without somepony controlling the sun and moon.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!
Hee hee, Cadance ships it.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
I'm gonna add my two bits on the Hearth Warming Story. I doubt it's completely accurate.
It's most likely the simplified, foal-friendly, disney fairy tale version of the story.
I actually had this conversation, in character, a few months ago, the following sums upo what I think, though as it 1) is made using only in character knowledge and 2) was had before the journal, some details are going to be off.
Spoiler
Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emperor Ing
Yeah, we can do walking now. By the way, I was thinking yesterday, is it just me or is there something about the Hearth's Warming story that just seems...wrong? I mean...um, were the three pony tribes really equal? I'm not so sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
Not Really. It takes much more effort to grow crops than it does to manipulate the weather or move the sun and moon-The Princesses can't be that much stronger than a normal unicorn, it took both of them to stop him a thousand years ago, and they still weren't able to do it before he could curse the empire-so the Idea that one or two really powerful Unicorns being able to do it by themselves isn't so unlikely. So the Earth Ponies were working very hard and losing 2 thirds of their crops to ponies the could have possibly worked to grow there own crops.
but that's assuming that the story is literal, It was a few hundred years before my time, plenty of time for it to be cleaned up and simplified for younger foals.
granted, that would have pretty easily explained why the three tribes disliked each other at first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Emperor Ing
Yeah, but...surely someling thinks they must've been equal... The nymph attempts Devil's Advocate. If the weather affected the Pegusi two-thirds less or the sun and moon affected the Unicorns two-thirds less...
...yeah I don't buy it either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
Exactly. Now, I don't know what the Modern version of the story says, but the one I know says the the three tribes of pony came from the same homeland, that the separated while immigrated because they didn't like each other, they all set up there own Kingdoms in different Parts of what became Equestria, but where driven together by the Windigo threat, untl eventually they were fighting over the same mountain-which became Canterlot. The Story says that the Leaders of the three tribes were frozen alive by the Windigo's feeding on their hate, but there Subordinate's eventually agreed to a truce, and the hate died out, and eventually they became friends, and cooperated and the Windigo's starved to death, and everypony thawed. The story also says that the tribes leaders were forced out of power when they thawed out, but really, they probably froze to death.
So, Either the friendship thing was tacked on later, and the three tribes only tolerated each other, or after the three tribes united, they worked out a more fair trade deal, and that part was just left out of the story.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
I was wondering why I hadn't read that so I check and realized that it has it's roots in a Fluttermac story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
I'm gonna add my two bits on the Hearth Warming Story. I doubt it's completely accurate.
It's most likely the simplified, foal-friendly, disney fairy tale version of the story.
I actually had this conversation, in character, a few months ago, the following sums upo what I think, though as it 1) is made using only in character knowledge and 2) was had before the journal, some details are going to be off.
Oh I agree that the play isn't literal. But there's a difference between not literal and everything in the play is more or less false.
As a response to your characters;
We know the pegasi require basically everypony for at least some jobs (such as gathering water) and just in general are working hard, so the deal seems fair for them. (Basically, yes controlling the weather is just as hard as growing crops is for Earth Ponies).
And while your characters couldn't have known this Celestia is approximately as strong as 25% of everypony in Equestria (assuming equal strength between alicorns, and Tirek having an equal conversion of magic eaten to strength gained.)
If unicorns were 33.33% of the population of ponies, that means a little over 8% of the population was idle. (Assuming raising the sun requires around the same strength that Celestia possesses, not more or less (as a cutie mark talent it might actually be less for her))
Anyways 8% seems to be a reasonable amount of 'idle' workers. We know Sweet Apple Acres can run with 2.5 ponies. But we don't know if they are an exception, or the proportion of total food Sweet Apple Acres provides to Equestria. We don't even know the proportion of farm ponies to non farming ponies.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Forum Explorer
As a response to your characters;
We know the pegasi require basically everypony for at least some jobs (such as gathering water) and just in general are working hard, so the deal seems fair for them. (Basically, yes controlling the weather is just as hard as growing crops is for Earth Ponies).
And while your characters couldn't have known this Celestia is approximately as strong as 25% of everypony in Equestria (assuming equal strength between alicorns, and Tirek having an equal conversion of magic eaten to strength gained.)
If unicorns were 33.33% of the population of ponies, that means a little over 8% of the population was idle. (Assuming raising the sun requires around the same strength that Celestia possesses, not more or less (as a cutie mark talent it might actually be less for her))
Anyways 8% seems to be a reasonable amount of 'idle' workers. We know Sweet Apple Acres can run with 2.5 ponies. But we don't know if they are an exception, or the proportion of total food Sweet Apple Acres provides to Equestria. We don't even know the proportion of farm ponies to non farming ponies.
My character doesn't know that, He's a crystal Pony, from the Crystal empire. Pegasi are a minority, and the weather is maintained by the crystal heart(bit of headcanon I've developed, and we're using my Headcanon in the game he's from for Crystal Pony stuff)
Screw my character having know way of knowing that, I had no way of knowing that. This wasn't even half way into the season yet. Also, i seriosly Doubt that all four alicorns are perectly equal in strength.
I was deliberatly wrong OOC there, becuase my character is like ten years old
And no comment on Sweet apple acres.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
My character doesn't know that, He's a crystal Pony, from the Crystal empire. Pegasi are a minority, and the weather is maintained by the crystal heart(bit of headcanon I've developed, and we're using my Headcanon in the game he's from for Crystal Pony stuff)
Screw my character having know way of knowing that, I had no way of knowing that. This wasn't even half way into the season yet. Also, i seriosly Doubt that all four alicorns are perectly equal in strength.
I was deliberatly wrong OOC there, becuase my character is like ten years old
And no comment on Sweet apple acres.
Fair enough.
Yeah I doubt they are all of equal strength, and my headcanon is that Celestia is in fact the weakest of the four. However that's based in nothing, and it's reasonable to assume they are of equal strength until we have proof otherwise.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
The unbelievability of the play as actual history is not because of the presence of fantastical creatures. Rather, it's because the world is coming to an end and there are depleting resources... and yet there is no war? Why aren't the tribes fighting each other for food and work slaves? Because...
They are magical ponies who do not map 100% to human nature and are as represented by food fights and compromise as we are by greed and violence. Duh.
Any anecdote that is "I would be more of a jackass in that situation and I refuse to believe they're better than me" is wrong. Sorry Mlai.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Another little recommenation: Coups d'etat.
A Pratchettian influenced story, with a novel use of Fancy Pants as antagonist and featuring Shining Armor and the use of frozen vegetatbles/fruit (depending on which side of the Atlantic the classification falls under).
I have found it hilarious and tragically under-viewed.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Princess Celestia in, A bit Too Much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
and the use of frozen vegetatbles/fruit (depending on which side of the Atlantic the classification falls under).
Tomatoes you mean?
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Forum Explorer
Because how many plays actually have the proper historical flag made up? Remember the events are over a 1000 years old and predates Discord. The common pony likely doesn't know or care what the flag originally looked like.
Twilight Sparkle is a main character in this play.
Quote:
And on that note, a howling blizzard is not a good time to fight a war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
They are magical ponies who do not map 100% to human nature and are as represented by food fights and compromise as we are by greed and violence. Any anecdote that is "I would be more of a jackass in that situation and I refuse to believe they're better than me" is wrong.
(1) The windigos and winter are allegory. They do not exist.
(2) "Ponies don't think the way humans do!" Actually, they think exactly as humans do. We've watched 4 seasons of ponies interacting as peaceful polite naive humans would interact; they're 100% relateable. The only thing to explain is why they're so peaceful, polite, and naive as a society. See #3.
(3) We're talking about pre-united ponies without Equestrian ideals; they don't have to fight with fruits and pies. Royal guards have real spears for a reason. The ponies' current docile peaceful nature is a product of 1000+ years of guidance and indoctrination.
Quote:
So is the Fire of Friendship which we do see in present time. Even if you throw out the majority of the play you still have the Fire of Friendship being discovered before Celestia ruled.
The FoF is allegory. It's "friendship magic" that didn't involve the EoH or an alicorn. None of those 6 ponies are Bearers; AoE friendship magic can't just erupt from them to cover the world, without the EoH. No, not even in Equestria.
And if it did turn out they were secretly destined to be Bearers all along, and this is their 1st manifestation, you can bet the play (and history) would have covered that.
Quote:
And assuming that he learned it from Celestia is just making stuff up. How about this? Starswirl actually learned about the Elements from Twilight Sparkle in the yet unseen future. It has about as much evidence as your theory. Once you get into the realm of making stuff up anything goes.
It's not making stuff up to say that canonically, Starswirl is all over the place in history. There's only 3 explanations: (1) Lazy writers, (2) Ponies put him everywhere in their textbooks, (3) He travels through time on many occasions.
Explanation #3 is backed up by both the Journal and the show itself.
I'm not the one who insists that he learned of the Elements before Celestia. You did, as a way of proving that ponies knew about Friendship Magic before Celestia. They did not. Using Starswirl as an example is faulty, because he's outside of time.
And when I say Friendship Magic, I very specifically mean "Magic from the Elements of Harmony." That is the only canonical Friendship Magic. To wield it, you must currently be a designated Bearer, or you're the friends of said Bearer and is in her presence.
Quote:
Key point: THERE IS NO NATURALLY IN THE PONY UNIVERSE! Things explicitly do not run on the same system as Earth does. Birds don't migrate without help, The seasons don't change, the sun doesn't move, things don't grow. The only place that works that way is the Everfree forest, which is seen as an abomination. We have no idea what the world would look like without ponies, but it's not a system that can arise naturally because it makes no sense on a biological level. The world might become a dark barren place without ponies, or perhaps is just ends up like the Everfree forest. Perhaps instead of the sun going down, it stays stuck in a twilight position. Perhaps that scene where we have both the sun and moon in the sky is what it looks like without somepony controlling the sun and moon.
There are only 2 ways the pony universe can exist as currently:
(1) It originally worked naturally, i.e. on its own, and then got broken some time in the past.
(2) The race of Alicorns created the world, and kept it running artificially. The task then fell on ordinary unicorns for a time when the Alicorns disappeared as a race.
Their universe cannot have started out that way, and always been kept up by unicorns that way. Even if we assume no Evolution. You need advanced knowledge of magic, and social organization, or even just the concept of "Hey it's up to us to control those big bright things", to do something like "unicorns control the sun and moon." That takes time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tectonic Robot
MLai; that's a nice headcanon you got there, but a headcanon nonetheless. I, personally, see no reason to assume that there was a massive, near genocidal war in Equestria's past.
To explain a representation of the events in the play, you have to assume something world-changing and awful had happened. Unless the play is entirely fictitious and not even loosely based on anything.
But the play in itself is played out too allegorical and internally inconsistent to be actual history. If we assume it's accurate to historical events, as per your strict requirement of non-headcanon, the entire play is nonsensical. And it's even more nonsensical that not even Twilight Sparkle reacts to its obvious inconsistencies, such as the anachronistic Big Flag or the anachronistic placement of Starswirl (her idol, to boot).
Maybe the entire episode should be struck from continuity, if we want to adhere to Canon in absolutist terms. If we ignore even 1 part of the play as inaccurate, we can deem all of it as inaccurate. One way is just as much "headcanon" as the other. The Journal does not invalidate the play at all; it does explain some of it.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DigoDragon
Tomatoes you mean?
No... And as far as I'm aware, tomatoes are biologically fruit but classified as vegetables on both sides.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
Twilight Sparkle is a main character in this play.
Error. Twilight Sparkle is a major star in this play. A major actor. And actors, as I understand the world of theater, don't often have a lot of influence with the props people.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
No... And as far as I'm aware, tomatoes are biologically fruit but classified as vegetables on both sides.
Oh, it's not just us? Interesting.
Guess that prevents certain arguments.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
(1) The windigos and winter are allegory. They do not exist.
(2) "Ponies don't think the way humans do!" Actually, they think exactly as humans do. We've watched 4 seasons of ponies interacting as peaceful polite naive humans would interact; they're 100% relateable. The only thing to explain is why they're so peaceful, polite, and naive as a society. See #3.
(3) We're talking about pre-united ponies without Equestrian ideals; they don't have to fight with fruits and pies. Royal guards have real spears for a reason. The ponies' current docile peaceful nature is a product of 1000+ years of guidance and indoctrination.
(1) I see no reason to believe this. They are entirely fitting with the world we have seen.
(2) Actually, if you follow closely, Ponies frequently portray little quirks that clearly mark them as tending to think like horses. Particularly in the sense of herd-like panic, but there's plenty of subtle moments along the way too. There's plenty in pony psychology that explains the docility and peacefulness in comparison to humans without 1000's of years of social engineering.
(3) 1000 years of guidance and indoctrination is pure speculation, as is the idea that ponies were ever more warlike than they are now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
The FoF is allegory. It's "friendship magic" that didn't involve the EoH or an alicorn. None of those 6 ponies are Bearers; AoE friendship magic can't just erupt from them to cover the world, without the EoH. No, not even in Equestria.
And if it did turn out they were secretly destined to be Bearers all along, and this is their 1st manifestation, you can bet the play (and history) would have covered that.
Objection; Supposition. The play clearly implies that Friendship produced Magical effects and this is entirely in keeping with the tagline, that Friendship IS Magic. The Elements of Harmony are simply macguffins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
I'm not the one who insists that he learned of the Elements before Celestia. You did, as a way of proving that ponies knew about Friendship Magic before Celestia. They did not. Using Starswirl as an example is faulty, because he's outside of time.
And when I say Friendship Magic, I very specifically mean "Magic from the Elements of Harmony." That is the only canonical Friendship Magic. To wield it, you must currently be a designated Bearer, or you're the friends of said Bearer and is in her presence.
Artificial distinction. The show does not make any such distinction or imply that Friendship Magic only exists in the context of the Elements of Harmony and there's a real degree to which the gist of season 4 has been an extended effort at jossing that very concept. You're also excluding a perfect counter-example of friendship magic without the elements by arbitrarily declaring that the events in the hearthswarming play never happened. If we do not assume that, then it's almost impossible to state with any strength that there is no Friendship Magic without the Elements.
Especially worth noting that if we're ruling out the Fire of Friendship or whatever it was because it is Friendship Magic that doesn't come from the elements and then using the fact there are no examples that don't involve the elements that we have stumbled into a bit of a circular argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
There are only 2 ways the pony universe can exist as currently:
(1) It originally worked naturally, i.e. on its own, and then got broken some time in the past.
(2) The race of Alicorns created the world, and kept it running artificially. The task then fell on ordinary unicorns for a time when the Alicorns disappeared as a race.
Their universe cannot have started out that way, and always been kept up by unicorns that way. Even if we assume no Evolution. You need advanced knowledge of magic, and social organization, or even just the concept of "Hey it's up to us to control those big bright things", to do something like "unicorns control the sun and moon." That takes time.
I could probably think of another half a dozen without straining myself. The only two ways? Hardly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
To explain a representation of the events in the play, you have to assume something world-changing and awful had happened. Unless the play is entirely fictitious and not even loosely based on anything.
But the play in itself is played out too allegorical and internally inconsistent to be actual history. If we assume it's accurate to historical events, as per your strict requirement of non-headcanon, the entire play is nonsensical. And it's even more nonsensical that not even Twilight Sparkle reacts to its obvious inconsistencies, such as the anachronistic Big Flag or the anachronistic placement of Starswirl (her idol, to boot).
Maybe the entire episode should be struck from continuity, if we want to adhere to Canon in absolutist terms. If we ignore even 1 part of the play as inaccurate, we can deem all of it as inaccurate. One way is just as much "headcanon" as the other. The Journal does not invalidate the play at all; it does explain some of it.
Or we could assume the play was broadly accurate and only simplified on details, such as the entire tribe populations appearing to be two ponies each perhaps. We only need a new explanation for the events in the play if we throw out the one the play provides (and that Twilight seems to have no problem accepting).
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Mlai: What evidence, beside your own Head canon, do you have for anything you're postulating?
All we know for sure is that the play supposedly takes place over a thousand years ago, before Discord took over Equestria.
Even my theory, about the Story being a deliberately cutesy fairy-tale version of events to reinforce the moral still assumes that it's a more or less accurate adaption.
What evidence have you that the Windigo's don't exist? I man, we have Dragons, unicorns, pegasi, chimera, manticors, Demoninc centaurs, aziqotles, reality warping patchwork critters, fairies, animate bundles of wood, and shapeshifting bug ponies that eat love.
an evil spirit of cold and windg that feeds on conflict is not unreasonable, especially since, like many of the creatures on the show, they do infact derive from a real world mythology.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DigoDragon
Tomatoes you mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
No... And as far as I'm aware, tomatoes are biologically fruit but classified as vegetables on both sides.
Ah, memories...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kd7sov
Error. Twilight Sparkle is a major star in this play. A major actor. And actors, as I understand the world of theater, don't often have a lot of influence with the props people.
It depends. When the actors are involved in putting a production together, they can have a significant influence on what items the props department makes and purchases, how they maintain them and dress them up, etc. However, when actors are introduced into an established long-runner, their influence decreases. Also, long-established companies, especially ones that put on shows a number of times, tend to have a gallery of props they use and reuse long after their original manufacture or purchase, and across shows. This is especially true once an audience has been exposed to a company or a company's production of a show multiple times. They expect a certain look and will react negatively when it's altered without [what they don't appreciate to be] a good reason.
In the situation we are shown, the Mane Six are trained in from Ponyville to act in Canterlot. This is their first time doing so, but the Canterlot Hearth's Warming pageant is already a well-known annual event. Hence, they're guest actors entering a company that's not their own, with all the attendant implications (see above). They get their costumes out of boxes provided by the company; presumably the sets and props came from the same source. It doesn't look like they got to rehearse in the space or with their costumes, so I would doubt they got a chance to look at the props before the performance. Even if Twilight demanded a checklist of props she could read on the train (when she could be memorizing the libretto and score!?), the flag would probably just be labelled "Equestria Flag" or something that would not reveal its true look (actually, it would probably be abbreviated into incomprehensibility, knowing props people :smalltongue: ).
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
Twilight Sparkle is a main character in this play.
(1) The windigos and winter are allegory. They do not exist.
(2) "Ponies don't think the way humans do!" Actually, they think exactly as humans do. We've watched 4 seasons of ponies interacting as peaceful polite naive humans would interact; they're 100% relateable. The only thing to explain is why they're so peaceful, polite, and naive as a society. See #3.
(3) We're talking about pre-united ponies without Equestrian ideals; they don't have to fight with fruits and pies. Royal guards have real spears for a reason. The ponies' current docile peaceful nature is a product of 1000+ years of guidance and indoctrination.
The FoF is allegory. It's "friendship magic" that didn't involve the EoH or an alicorn. None of those 6 ponies are Bearers; AoE friendship magic can't just erupt from them to cover the world, without the EoH. No, not even in Equestria.
And if it did turn out they were secretly destined to be Bearers all along, and this is their 1st manifestation, you can bet the play (and history) would have covered that.
It's not making stuff up to say that canonically, Starswirl is all over the place in history. There's only 3 explanations: (1) Lazy writers, (2) Ponies put him everywhere in their textbooks, (3) He travels through time on many occasions.
Explanation #3 is backed up by both the Journal and the show itself.
I'm not the one who insists that he learned of the Elements before Celestia. You did, as a way of proving that ponies knew about Friendship Magic before Celestia. They did not. Using Starswirl as an example is faulty, because he's outside of time.
And when I say Friendship Magic, I very specifically mean "Magic from the Elements of Harmony." That is the only canonical Friendship Magic. To wield it, you must currently be a designated Bearer, or you're the friends of said Bearer and is in her presence.
There are only 2 ways the pony universe can exist as currently:
(1) It originally worked naturally, i.e. on its own, and then got broken some time in the past.
(2) The race of Alicorns created the world, and kept it running artificially. The task then fell on ordinary unicorns for a time when the Alicorns disappeared as a race.
Their universe cannot have started out that way, and always been kept up by unicorns that way. Even if we assume no Evolution. You need advanced knowledge of magic, and social organization, or even just the concept of "Hey it's up to us to control those big bright things", to do something like "unicorns control the sun and moon." That takes time.
To explain a representation of the events in the play, you have to assume something world-changing and awful had happened. Unless the play is entirely fictitious and not even loosely based on anything.
But the play in itself is played out too allegorical and internally inconsistent to be actual history. If we assume it's accurate to historical events, as per your strict requirement of non-headcanon, the entire play is nonsensical. And it's even more nonsensical that not even Twilight Sparkle reacts to its obvious inconsistencies, such as the anachronistic Big Flag or the anachronistic placement of Starswirl (her idol, to boot).
Maybe the entire episode should be struck from continuity, if we want to adhere to Canon in absolutist terms. If we ignore even 1 part of the play as inaccurate, we can deem all of it as inaccurate. One way is just as much "headcanon" as the other. The Journal does not invalidate the play at all; it does explain some of it.
Your posts are becoming more and more based in nothing but headcanon.
Someone beat me to Twilight's influence over the proper props in the play.
1) Prove it. Here's counter proof. After the play (at 21:20) you hear a windigo.
2) No they don't. They think similarly to humans, but they do have slight differences like panicking at the drop of a hat, not killing hostile creatures like Chimeras or Parasprites, or even just bursting out into song.
3) Says you. I say that spears are after 1000 years of weapon research and that traditional weapons are pies and household items.
Incorrect. Again, after the play (at 21:30) you literally see the Fire of Friendship burning over Canterlot.
Or the timeline itself was messed up, or perhaps he mastered anti-aging spells and just lived for a few centuries.
Again that's incorrect. There was the Fire of Friendship which you continually deny existing, and the spell Twilight cast to become an alicorn. Starswirl invented it, but it was flawed. Still it was a friendship based spell. There's also the power the Mane 6 tapped in the S4 finale which very much was a friendship based power, that isn't from the Elements of Harmony.
You are very fond of throwing out definite answers when yes there could be more solutions. Perhaps the ponies are some crazy alien terraforming project. Perhaps Equestria was fully created with the three tribes being as is by a spirit we haven't even seen yet.
Why not? Why could they not have been simply created that way? It doesn't make sense? The whole system doesn't make sense.
The play fits into canon perfectly fine. (and so does Starswirl's mention in the play which was just saying that he taught Clover the Clever). Things like the flag are easily explained as them just not being historically accurate. The play completely clashes with your headcanon. The play does not clash with my headcanon, as it leaves room for the events in the play to be more or less true. There is a big difference between 'an evening play talking about events that are over a thousand years old is likely not accurate' and 'the play is entirely incorrect'.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tiki Snakes
I could probably think of another half a dozen without straining myself. The only two ways? Hardly.
Would you mind sharing? I'm honestly curious.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Alternative take;
She's history nerd enough to realise that the flag traditionally used in the hearthswarming play dates from a later period but is not jackass enough to complain about it, because everybody knows that's the flag traditionally used in the hearthswarming play.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Forum Explorer
There's also the power the Mane 6 tapped in the S4 finale which very much was a friendship based power, that isn't from the Elements of Harmony.
As much as it pains me to correct you when you're proving somebody else wrong, it did come from the Tree of harmony, and the Elements lit up when they gained the ability the first time.
so while it may or may not be the same power, it is from the same source
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zimmerwald1915
Ah, memories...
My tomato-based memories all are tied to Super Mario 2. :smallconfused:
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tiki Snakes
(2) Actually, if you follow closely, Ponies frequently portray little quirks that clearly mark them as tending to think like horses. Particularly in the sense of herd-like panic, but there's plenty of subtle moments along the way too. There's plenty in pony psychology that explains the docility and peacefulness in comparison to humans without 1000's of years of social engineering.
(3) 1000 years of guidance and indoctrination is pure speculation, as is the idea that ponies were ever more warlike than they are now.
They have organizations with a military structure and outlook. They wear metallic armor. They tote around real spears, both for practical use and as a ceremonial show of authority/ force/ pride.
Quote:
Objection; Supposition. The play clearly implies that Friendship produced Magical effects and this is entirely in keeping with the tagline, that Friendship IS Magic. The Elements of Harmony are simply macguffins.
To suppose that anypony can summon a world-covering field that instantly magically destroys powerful enemies and magically saves anypony in the middle of being killed, without being a Bearer and without the Elements, is detrimental both in show-meta and in-setting.
Meta: It sounds all fitting and happy because it's a sugarbright concept, but good luck writing any story with any amount of tension.
Setting: So everypony is a magic laser cannon as long as he/she has the barest concept of harmony. Curious how any antagonist in the show ever lasted 5 seconds, or why the Elements are even needed or seen as ultra-important.
Quote:
I could probably think of another half a dozen without straining myself. The only two ways? Hardly.
Please do, without introducing new elements/concepts/things.
(Race/pantheon of alicorns is not a new concept/thing; it's stated in the Journal.)
Quote:
Or we could assume the play was broadly accurate and only simplified on details, such as the entire tribe populations appearing to be two ponies each perhaps. We only need a new explanation for the events in the play if we throw out the one the play provides (and that Twilight seems to have no problem accepting).
Each tribe being 2 ponies is part of the allegory. You cannot be "broadly accurate" if you're "simplified" to that degree, i.e. an entire tribe/nation of ponies -with the dynamics inherent in that large number- reduced down to 2 ponies.
Twilight having no problem with the play's internal inconsistencies shows that she knows the play is allegory.
If anypony can spawn a globe-spanning magic fire/laser, and each tribe is not just 2 ponies, then why are the hostile leaders the ones who ended up doing the Special Thing? The tribes interacted with each other. The relations were cold but they weren't at open war. We have a world full of ponies... Why didn't we have a Romeo-Juliet scenario somewhere that spontaneously sparked the FoF? Why didn't a wise sage somewhere proclaim "Waitaminnit, I love everypony~!" Why did it take the leaders who are completely unsympathetic characters? Are they super special? Or is it because leaders (and their literate assistants) write histories?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
What evidence have you that the Windigo's don't exist? I man, we have Dragons, unicorns, pegasi, chimera, manticors, Demoninc centaurs, aziqotles, reality warping patchwork critters, fairies, animate bundles of wood, and shapeshifting bug ponies that eat love.
I don't say they don't exist because they're fantastical. I say it because of the structure and nature of the play, in which the Windigos scream "representation of concept." They are allegorical, in a story entirely set up to walk and talk like a fable.
If I accept Windigos as fact, then I must accept all the nonsensical cause/effects around them as fact. For example, the "fact" that anypony in the world can spawn a globe-spanning magic fire equal to the power of the Elements Of Harmony. Do you want to accept that as fact?
If that's the case, then why did a single thing in the entire series happen? NMM should have been spontaneously freed from the moon and reverted back into a repentant Luna, the instant some little filly in the world said "But the Princess of the Moon can't be evil! I believe in you Luna~!!"
Edit: I see no need to reply to anything past #406, as they just retread ground I coincidentally covered in this post. And don't be too quick to use the "Well no matter what you say it's just headcanon" against me. The only reason we're even having this discussion is because I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, when you're headcanon-ing away the existence of the Official Journal.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
As much as it pains me to correct you when you're proving somebody else wrong, it did come from the Tree of harmony, and the Elements lit up when they gained the ability the first time.
so while it may or may not be the same power, it is from the same source
True, but it still doesn't fit with the very absolute definition of Friendship Power that Mlai used, of power originating from the Elements of Harmony.
Of course if we look at all of the villains defeated we get
Nightmare Moon (EoH)
Discord (EoH)
Chrysalis (Love power)
Sombra (Crystal Heart (Happiness?))
Sunset Shimmer (EoH kinda)
Tirek (Rainbow Power)
So at a glance it does seem that emotion powered magic isn't as simple as just 'Elements of Harmony'. The EoH is the only one that explicitly uses Friendship, but there are other strong magics in Love or Happiness.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
Would you mind sharing? I'm honestly curious.
Should be in bed, but let me kick of a list of improvised creation stories that lead to the equestrian status quo without earth-nature breaking down or Alicorn Race creating the world;
1) Everything spontaneously popped in to existence exactly as it needed to be for unknown reasons. Day one of anything existing came with a basic three-part pony society, with proto-unicorn, proto-pegasus and proto-earth pony already knowing their damn role.
2) The ancient world had existed for aeons already when Ponies clawed their way to true sentience. The Earth Ponies went to use their new gift of language to talk with the spirit of the world. The Pegasi flew up to speak to the spirits of the skies and the Unicorns popped round to have a nice chat with Jeremy, the thousand mile high sky-turtle whose job it was to push the heavenly bodies through the sky every-day.
"Yo Jeremy, that looks like a lot of hard work man. Don't you wanna chill out and settle down one day? You know what, it's cool. We've got this and you certainly earned a rest."
3) First there was Chaos and the lords of chaos were the Draconequuses. There were innumerable of them and they spent their days creating things and discarding them, form fluctuating without end. One day they created a world and a sun and a moon and put them over there out of the way for a while. Later they added all manner of stuff, some of it sillier than others. Eventually, existing started becoming a little samey for the Lords of Chaos so they stopped. This left the creations of the Draconequuses rather at a loss with what to now their days weren't filled with simply trying to survive in an endless maelstrom of chaos and impermenance, so they settled down and got busy moving things around for something to do instead.
4) Originally, Night and Day were less in the way of times and more in the way of places. Night Time existed in one valley and Day time existed a few valleys over. the twilight valleys of dawn and dusk, mid afternoon and early evening kept things varied. Everypony and everything would simply move around between the valleys depending on what kind of light and heat level they preferred, but Ponies being flighty and irrascable tended to have trouble picking a favourite and sticking with it, so eventually the Unicorns agreed that it would be a lot more fair if they moved the sun and the moon around a bit with Telekenesis, so everypony got a fair turn without having to go hiking so often.
5) The universe began with Twilight reading a book about the two sisters and the prophesied return of nightmare moon and expanded outwards from there with the past flowing out from that moment to stream behind the burning moment and potential futures running ahead gleefully to explore where things might go. By this point, the world has existed for thousands of years but it has only done so for about one or two. There will be no moment of creation for a long time yet because the event wave hasn't gotten far enough yet so anything could be the cause and nothing yet is.
6) Originally, the world made a serious attempt at running itself but it was basically a lazy idiot. The sun and moon never seemed to remember where they were supposed to be and never really paid attention so night and day often blurred together or sometimes failed to show up at all. The seasons simply happened whenever they felt like it and so the animals never knew whether they should be hibernating or not. Ponies and the other major races began to emerge but it was difficult to get anything done in such an unprofessional reality, so they banded together and subjugated the spirits of the solar bodies and the seasons in a mighty but slightly silly war. Ponies accepted the spirits overtures of peace and a deal was struck, they stop bothering the spirits (forcing them to pay attention to things and do stuff) and the spirits agreed to do their things when requested on the proviso that the Ponies take care of the tedious duty of keeping track of when and where that was actually supposed to be and so on. The spirits of the sun and moon and seasons put on their best troll faces and rolled over to sleep, satisfied whilst the animals breathed a sigh of relief that those conceptual jerks had finally agreed to stop goofing off all over the place, making reality look untidy.
EDIT - 7) Earth Ponies needed somewhere to stand and grow stuff, so they built the world. But pulling the sun through the sky is ridiculously tiring, so they built a new type of pony to deal with that and another to handle the clouds so that they could spend more time in their gardens.
Pulling the sun through the sky is only a bit less tiring with your horn than with a big rope, so eventually the Unicorns gave up as well and created Alicorns to do it for them and it worked out great for everyone involved except the Alicorns, who had a go at creating a new pony to do their job for them so they could go play princesses instead, but it turned out dragon was a terrible addition to pony and no one liked how the draconequus ran things. Young Alicorns with a work ethic removed Discord (and/or his people) from power and got back to work.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Forum Explorer
True, but it still doesn't fit with the very absolute definition of Friendship Power that Mlai used, of power originating from the Elements of Harmony.
Except for all we know, the "Rainbow Power" could just be the Tree of Harmony giving the Mane 6 the power to draw on the elements of harmony without physically touching the gems.(Which would make Sunset Shimmer's defeat foreshadowing)
Or the energy in the Box may have caused the Girls to, metaphysically, become one with their element, which would explain why instead of a proper rainbow, the rainbow fired consisted of the six colors of the Mane 6's coats.
not that I'm agreeing with Mlai, personally I think that the Tree/Elements are the most powerful/purest expression of the Magic of Friendship.
The Fires of Friendship could very easily be justified as being magic created by an extremely potent act of Friendship, such as say, giving up on generations of Hatred and accepting enemies as friends.
Of course, my headcanon is that the Fires were added to the story(The ones we see above Canterlot being illusions) and what actually happened is that, with the three leaders frozen and there subordinates in charge, there was no conflict and the Windigos eventually starved to death.
Changing Topics
So, who here thinks that Twilight rules ponyville now?
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MLai
(1) The windigos and winter are allegory. They do not exist.
Proof?
Quote:
(2) "Ponies don't think the way humans do!"
Strawman. We have four seasons and word of god that ponies symbolize Thanqolkien philosophy of "you can be more". You have not seen ponies at their best. You have seen them at their worst. They are a direct symbol of how the lowest common denominator is a lie *******s tell each other to justify being *******s. Ponies are not going to murder each other because unlike what we've convinced ourselves in order to not feel bad for being *******s, murder is not necessary.
"Ponies do think like humans" was never in contention, refuting the antithesis of that is obfuscation and proves nought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
As much as it pains me to correct you when you're proving somebody else wrong, it did come from the Tree of harmony, and the Elements lit up when they gained the ability the first time.
so while it may or may not be the same power, it is from the same source
Alternately, the ponies resonate with the tree. They are a source of Harmony themselves sufficient that they do not need the tree, but that the tree reacts to them as it did it's own elemental accoutrement.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rater202
So, who here thinks that Twilight rules ponyville now?
Nah, I'm sure she leaves all that boring desk paperwork stuff to Mayor Mare. The Princess of Friendship has places to go and villainy to rainbowfy. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tiki Snakes
Should be in bed, but let me kick of a list of improvised creation stories that lead to the equestrian status quo without earth-nature breaking down or Alicorn Race creating the world;
Your post is meant to be humorous so I won't go into the refutations in too much detail, as they should be self-evident.
1) Everything spontaneously popped in to existence exactly
Static myth-type world settings negate progression of history. Show story has progression of history, culture, worldviews, and technology.
2) "Yo Jeremy, that looks like a lot of hard work man. Don't you wanna chill out and settle down one day?
Introduces new element.
3) First there was Chaos and the lords of chaos were the Draconequuses.
Introduces new element.
4) Originally, Night and Day were less in the way of times and more in the way of places.
Ha ha, this is great. Reminds me of some real nice children's stories. Writing those takes a special brand of whimsy. :smallsmile:
Introduces new element.
5) The universe began with Twilight reading a book.
Wow, you can switch gears so fast. The talented ppl are what keeps me coming back to this inflexible frustrating forum.
6) The spirits of the sun and moon and seasons put on their best troll faces and rolled over to sleep, satisfied whilst the animals breathed a sigh of relief that those conceptual jerks had finally agreed to stop goofing off all over the place, making reality look untidy.
Introduces new elements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SiuiS
Proof?
Gone thru it already.
Quote:
Strawman. We have four seasons and word of god that ponies symbolize Thanqolkien philosophy of "you can be more". You have not seen ponies at their best. You have seen them at their worst. They are a direct symbol of how the lowest common denominator is a lie *******s tell each other to justify being *******s. Ponies are not going to murder each other because unlike what we've convinced ourselves in order to not feel bad for being *******s, murder is not necessary.
"Ponies do think like humans" was never in contention, refuting the antithesis of that is obfuscation and proves nought.
This is what I wanted to respond to.
If I understand what you're saying... Siuis: "Yes, ponies do think like humans. But they think like humans at their best. I do not like your insinuation that saying ponies think like humans means they must act like asshat humans." Is that accurate?
Again, we're talking about pre-Equestria ponies not current ponies. If they think like humans (which I agree with), then they're going to share the full spectrum of humanity. Anything less means they don't think like humans. And if they're already oppressing each other, with the privileged ignorant self-righteous leaders acting like asshat humans, then actual war is not unthinkable.
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Re: My Little Pony LXXXI: All Of These Ponies Are Crazy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tiki Snakes
Should be in bed, but let me kick of a list of improvised creation stories that lead to the equestrian status quo without earth-nature breaking down or Alicorn Race creating the world;
1) Everything spontaneously popped in to existence exactly as it needed to be for unknown reasons. Day one of anything existing came with a basic three-part pony society, with proto-unicorn, proto-pegasus and proto-earth pony already knowing their damn role.
2) The ancient world had existed for aeons already when Ponies clawed their way to true sentience. The Earth Ponies went to use their new gift of language to talk with the spirit of the world. The Pegasi flew up to speak to the spirits of the skies and the Unicorns popped round to have a nice chat with Jeremy, the thousand mile high sky-turtle whose job it was to push the heavenly bodies through the sky every-day.
"Yo Jeremy, that looks like a lot of hard work man. Don't you wanna chill out and settle down one day? You know what, it's cool. We've got this and you certainly earned a rest."
3) First there was Chaos and the lords of chaos were the Draconequuses. There were innumerable of them and they spent their days creating things and discarding them, form fluctuating without end. One day they created a world and a sun and a moon and put them over there out of the way for a while. Later they added all manner of stuff, some of it sillier than others. Eventually, existing started becoming a little samey for the Lords of Chaos so they stopped. This left the creations of the Draconequuses rather at a loss with what to now their days weren't filled with simply trying to survive in an endless maelstrom of chaos and impermenance, so they settled down and got busy moving things around for something to do instead.
4) Originally, Night and Day were less in the way of times and more in the way of places. Night Time existed in one valley and Day time existed a few valleys over. the twilight valleys of dawn and dusk, mid afternoon and early evening kept things varied. Everypony and everything would simply move around between the valleys depending on what kind of light and heat level they preferred, but Ponies being flighty and irrascable tended to have trouble picking a favourite and sticking with it, so eventually the Unicorns agreed that it would be a lot more fair if they moved the sun and the moon around a bit with Telekenesis, so everypony got a fair turn without having to go hiking so often.
5) The universe began with Twilight reading a book about the two sisters and the prophesied return of nightmare moon and expanded outwards from there with the past flowing out from that moment to stream behind the burning moment and potential futures running ahead gleefully to explore where things might go. By this point, the world has existed for thousands of years but it has only done so for about one or two. There will be no moment of creation for a long time yet because the event wave hasn't gotten far enough yet so anything could be the cause and nothing yet is.
6) Originally, the world made a serious attempt at running itself but it was basically a lazy idiot. The sun and moon never seemed to remember where they were supposed to be and never really paid attention so night and day often blurred together or sometimes failed to show up at all. The seasons simply happened whenever they felt like it and so the animals never knew whether they should be hibernating or not. Ponies and the other major races began to emerge but it was difficult to get anything done in such an unprofessional reality, so they banded together and subjugated the spirits of the solar bodies and the seasons in a mighty but slightly silly war. Ponies accepted the spirits overtures of peace and a deal was struck, they stop bothering the spirits (forcing them to pay attention to things and do stuff) and the spirits agreed to do their things when requested on the proviso that the Ponies take care of the tedious duty of keeping track of when and where that was actually supposed to be and so on. The spirits of the sun and moon and seasons put on their best troll faces and rolled over to sleep, satisfied whilst the animals breathed a sigh of relief that those conceptual jerks had finally agreed to stop goofing off all over the place, making reality look untidy.
EDIT - 7) Earth Ponies needed somewhere to stand and grow stuff, so they built the world. But pulling the sun through the sky is ridiculously tiring, so they built a new type of pony to deal with that and another to handle the clouds so that they could spend more time in their gardens.
Pulling the sun through the sky is only a bit less tiring with your horn than with a big rope, so eventually the Unicorns gave up as well and created Alicorns to do it for them and it worked out great for everyone involved except the Alicorns, who had a go at creating a new pony to do their job for them so they could go play princesses instead, but it turned out dragon was a terrible addition to pony and no one liked how the draconequus ran things. Young Alicorns with a work ethic removed Discord (and/or his people) from power and got back to work.
Would you mind if I stole one of those for a hypothetical crossover fic that I may or may not write once I'm done revising my EG Rainbow Pie fics?