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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
V doesnt have many ranks in common sense so sharing that information with the others isnt something he would think to do he would probably assume they knew
Hey, remember when I made a quip about Roy botching a research check, and you cried about that not being a skill? And then I told you to stop using arguments when they're convenient to you, and decrying them when they're not, and you accused me of trolling? Yeah, good times.
Common sense is not a skill. Yet somehow you're allowed to pull out things like that and I'm not? That is not how debates work. Stop saying "That isn't so!" when someone else says something that works against you, and then saying the exact same thing when it suddenly works in your favor. This is WAY more annoying than your lack of grammar. Whenever proven wrong(which has happened several times, in length, in this thread alone) your only responses are either "no I'm not, because I say so," it you ignore the issue completely. It's infuriating, because every point made against your position is either ignored or supposedly disallowed by you solely because it's not convenient for that argument to exist for you. Ive never used the ignore user feature in any forum I've ever been in, so congratulations, sir. You've managed to break me out of that.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
I find it astonishing how civil these forums are, as they let beings like .. some irritating folk .. do their annoying schtick and still bring him down with actual arguments. Probs to them, how a community handles very, very annoying persons is truely a benchmark to their civility.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Hey, remember when I made a quip about Roy botching a research check, and you cried about that not being a skill? And then I told you to stop using arguments when they're convenient to you, and decrying them when they're not, and you accused me of trolling? Yeah, good times.
Common sense is not a skill. Yet somehow you're allowed to pull out things like that and I'm not? That is not how debates work. Stop saying "That isn't so!" when someone else says something that works against you, and then saying the exact same thing when it suddenly works in your favor. This is WAY more annoying than your lack of grammar. Whenever proven wrong(which has happened several times, in length, in this thread alone) your only responses are either "no I'm not, because I say so," it you ignore the issue completely. It's infuriating, because every point made against your position is either ignored or supposedly disallowed by you solely because it's not convenient for that argument to exist for you. Ive never used the ignore user feature in any forum I've ever been in, so congratulations, sir. You've managed to break me out of that.
so is it everyone that you take there words painfully literally with or is it just me to make me angry? im generally curious
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
If I could add my two sense to this "the order is incompetant" arguement.
1) Roy failed by not doing research on xykon/liches - it seems to me that not a lot is known about xykon or liches in general in the OOTS world. Furthermore, what evidence was there that xykon was a lich at the begining of the story. I believe he was still alive when the blood oath was made. Was Roy expected to go "hmm...better research spellcasting undead types and memorize all their weaknesses on the off chance this guy turned into one". From a metagaming standpoint, its a little different when a DM says "you see a lich sitting on a throne" and "you see a magical skeleton sitting on a throne". An animated spellcasting skeleton can be ANY number of various undead.
2) Roy should have focused more on getting redcloak - When Roy encountered him in person he had no idea of the significance of the crimson mantle. Hell, basically no one in the world knows the full significance other than that the high priest wears it. But once Roy discovered the true threat, he did do his best to stop redcloak, by beating him to the gate! The only place he could be gauranteed to find him.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
arcticintel
1) Roy failed by not doing research on xykon/liches - it seems to me that not a lot is known about xykon or liches in general in the OOTS world. Furthermore, what evidence was there that xykon was a lich at the begining of the story. I believe he was still alive when the blood oath was made. Was Roy expected to go "hmm...better research spellcasting undead types and memorize all their weaknesses on the off chance this guy turned into one". From a metagaming standpoint, its a little different when a DM says "you see a lich sitting on a throne" and "you see a magical skeleton sitting on a throne". An animated spellcasting skeleton can be ANY number of various undead.
...This is patently false. Elan knew Xykon was a lich as early as strip 13. Eugene knew Xykon was a lich by the time Roy was eight years old, though not when he took the blood oath. Both of them mentioned this fact in Roy's presence. That said, as othersand as you have pointed out, it's a big leap from knowing "Xykon is a lich" to "I have to do a number of specific things, including smashing Xykon's phylactery, to permanently end him".
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2) Roy should have focused more on getting redcloak - When Roy encountered him in person he had no idea of the significance of the crimson mantle. Hell, basically no one in the world knows the full significance other than that the high priest wears it. But once Roy discovered the true threat, he did do his best to stop redcloak, by beating him to the gate! The only place he could be gauranteed to find him.
And you've lost me again. Roy still doesn't know the significance of the Crimson Mantle, let alone how central it and its bearer are to the Plan.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Ah, you're right, been awhile since i've been back through the archives. But i'd still maintain that in OOTS world phylacterys aren't common knowledge based on what we've seen. If they were, it would mean every member of OOTS forgot it was an issue when they beat xykon the first time. Granted, a lot was going on initially, but there was a bit of a time gap between defeating him, and learning he'd come back where they could have remembered something so vital.
Sorry, poor phrasing on my part. Roy might not know the importance of the crimson mantle, but he does know the significance of Redcloak, if as nothing else than xykons second-in-command.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
zimmerwald1915
And you've lost me again. Roy still doesn't know the significance of the Crimson Mantle, let alone how central it and its bearer are to the Plan.
Let alone that there IS a Plan. In fact, Roy has no idea that Redcloak is anything other than Xykon's nameless, albeit colorfully adorned, lackey.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Well, Haley should've realized by now that Redcloak is somewhat important, what his face being on flags and all. Though Supreme Leader of a bunch of hobgoblins doesn't necessarily mean anything concerning the Gates.
I'd say O-Chul knows more about Redcloak's importance and would've passed down that info in the meeting with Roy/Haley/Hinjo, but I can't really think of anything super special he learned about Redcloak on-panel, other than his personality.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Gift Jeraff
I'd say O-Chul knows more about Redcloak's importance and would've passed down that info in the meeting with Roy/Haley/Hinjo, but I can't really think of anything super special he learned about Redcloak on-panel, other than his personality.
The Sapphire Guard have been hunting the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle for a goodly while now, so it stands to reason that they, at least, know he's important and would have passed this information on to the Order, even if they don't know exactly WHY he's important. It's pretty clear that they don't know what Xykon and Redcloak intend to do with a Gate once they get it, though, because there would have been no point whatsoever in placing guards in the Azure City throne room if they knew it would take weeks for the Plan to be carried out.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Felixc-91
And Roy's father, the person who told Roy about the Phylactery. Weird thing is, the dad only seems to discover this after his death.
Spoiler
Show
we know this because they discussed Xykon in Origin of the PC's and Roy didn't learn about it till latter.
(Origin Spoiler)
Edit: sorta ninja'd
Perhaps Eugene did know before he died.
After all, Spoiler
Show
He only seemed to expect Roy to diddle around and maybe look into the Xykon matter so he could relay the information to Julia so she could do it, because as a Fighter Roy is assumed to be incapable of even looking at a spellcaster without dying (in Eugene's mind).
It wouldn't surprise me that he would either simply leave it out in telling Roy, assuming the above, or expect Roy to know because the precise areas covered by what Eugene thinks are common knowledge and what actually constitute common knowledge are probably unlikely to overlap much.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
they know Redcloak is more then jsut a lackey since Belkar thought hed be around 17th level
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Sorry, I should qualify my earlier statement. Roy has no personal experience with Redcloak that would lead him to believe Redcloak is anything special. The absence of even indirect interaction between the two is quite stark. Roy is, quite naturally, focused on Xykon.
Belkar and Haley have of course had more opportunity to learn about Redcloak as high priest of the Dark One and ruler of Gobbotopia. And Roy has information from other sources as well, like O-Chul. I just find it interesting that for all the time Redcloak and Roy have been in opposition to each other, Roy knows (and probably cares) less about Redcloak than about, say, Tarquin.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
Sorry, I should qualify my earlier statement. Roy has no personal experience with Redcloak that would lead him to believe Redcloak is anything special. The absence of even indirect interaction between the two is quite stark. Roy is, quite naturally, focused on Xykon.
Belkar and Haley have of course had more opportunity to learn about Redcloak as high priest of the Dark One and ruler of Gobbotopia. And Roy has information from other sources as well, like O-Chul. I just find it interesting that for all the time Redcloak and Roy have been in opposition to each other, Roy knows (and probably cares) less about Redcloak than about, say, Tarquin.
it is concievable that some time during Shojos story time or afterwards hed fill in the order about the crimson mantle there has been alot of talking between Roy and Shojo off panel
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
it is concievable that some time during Shojos story time or afterwards hed fill in the order about the crimson mantle there has been alot of talking between Roy and Shojo off panel
It is narratively implausible that Roy has been provided with any materially useful information off-panel in NCftPB that would inform his on-panel actions 500 strips later, because that would lead discerning readers to ask why Roy is acting on information he is not known to have received, and why he hadn't brought it up before that point.
Whence the gratuitous nitpickery? Wait, never mind, GitP forums. :smallsigh:
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
Let alone that there IS a Plan. In fact, Roy has no idea that Redcloak is anything other than Xykon's nameless, albeit colorfully adorned, lackey.
I do wonder what will happen when the Order finds out Redcloak and the rest of the goblinoids are more than just Xykon's minions. I also wonder when it will happen, obviously.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
im generally curious
I'm genuinely curious how you would like to respond to my argument on the last page that you created a fallacious false dichotomy. Or are we abruptly finished with that whole discussion?
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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It is narratively implausible that Roy has been provided with any materially useful information off-panel in NCftPB that would inform his on-panel actions 500 strips later, because that would lead discerning readers to ask why Roy is acting on information he is not known to have received, and why he hadn't brought it up before that point.
Whence the gratuitous nitpickery? Wait, never mind, GitP forums.
what...?
waht action of Roys could possibly be influenced by knowledge of redcloak? Redcloak probably wont even show up until the LG is dealt with
and i dont see how its wierd to assume that Roy has knowledge thats pretty much commmon knowledge to people interested in the gates
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
Ok, I've fallen way behind the argument here. What are the implications of the Sapphire Guard informing Roy off-panel that there's a chance that Redcloak's red cloak isn't simply a fashion accessory?
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
what...?
waht action of Roys could possibly be influenced by knowledge of redcloak? Redcloak probably wont even show up until the LG is dealt with
Increased consideration of Redcloak's role in the tactical planning Roy was doing, for one thing. I'm not just thinking about THIS strip.
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
and i dont see how its wierd to assume that Roy has knowledge thats pretty much commmon knowledge to people interested in the gates
The information Roy has is that Redcloak is a powerful goblin cleric subordinate of Xykon who is also interested in the Gates. He has known that pretty much since the Dungeon of Dorukan, with some modification to the known power level over time, most recently from the input of Haley and O-Chul. What additional information are you supposing Roy should possess?
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Originally Posted by
oppyu
Ok, I've fallen way behind the argument here. What are the implications of the Sapphire Guard informing Roy off-panel that there's a chance that Redcloak's red cloak isn't simply a fashion accessory?
Regardless of the potential implications, the Sapphire Guard doesn't know that the cloak isn't just a status symbol.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Regardless of the potential implications, the Sapphire Guard doesn't know that the cloak isn't just a status symbol.
i was under the impression the saphire guard knew Redcloak was the one who know how to "control" the gate
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
i was under the impression the saphire guard knew Redcloak was the one who know how to "control" the gate
Which is (a) not the same thing and (b) not my impression, unless you have a citation.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
Which is (a) not the same thing and (b) not my impression, unless you have a citation.
i thought it was stated in the prequal books guess i was wrong
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
oppyu
Ok, I've fallen way behind the argument here. What are the implications of the Sapphire Guard informing Roy off-panel that there's a chance that Redcloak's red cloak isn't simply a fashion accessory?
It is very doubtful any meaningful information was given to Roy. After all, all the Sapphire Guard actually know is that the goblin in the red cloak wants to destroy the world. They don't know anything about the specifics of the plan or that the crimson mantle itself is the source of Redcloak's power.
Since Roy -already- knew that Xykon wanted the gates and had to be stopped, being informed that that red-garbed goblin lackey of his also shouldn't be allowed near the gates isn't exactly useful information.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
FujinAkari
It is very doubtful any meaningful information was given to Roy. After all, all the Sapphire Guard actually know is that the goblin in the red cloak
wants to destroy the world. They don't know anything about the specifics of the plan or that the crimson mantle itself is the source of Redcloak's power.
Since Roy -already- knew that Xykon wanted the gates and had to be stopped, being informed that that red-garbed goblin lackey of his also shouldn't be allowed near the gates isn't exactly useful information.
it would be a decent delaying tactic to kill Redcloak if they realised that Redcloak is as neccesary as Xykon to control a gate
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
arcticintel
Ah, you're right, been awhile since i've been back through the archives. But i'd still maintain that in OOTS world phylacterys aren't common knowledge based on what we've seen. If they were, it would mean every member of OOTS forgot it was an issue when they beat xykon the first time. Granted, a lot was going on initially, but there was a bit of a time gap between defeating him, and learning he'd come back where they could have remembered something so vital.
Sorry, poor phrasing on my part. Roy might not know the importance of the crimson mantle, but he does know the significance of Redcloak, if as nothing else than xykons second-in-command.
Even if they knew liches generally have a phylactery somewhere, there was no reason to recognize it as a (from their point of view) random goblin's holy symbol. It could be pretty much anything and anywhere. While it would have been more efficient to find it's location before attacking, one might also assume it's in a remote location for safety - not a goblin in the immediate vicinity - and plan on divining it's location next.
However, since they considered Xykon defeated, once and for all they clearly had no idea that a phylactery existed. Two possibilities come to mind: 1) They didn't know such things existed. 2) The spells on it made it invisible to location spells, so they (or just Eugene) assumed it didn't exist.
Which of these it is may get retconned at some point since there is such contention over it, but I just wanted to point out that it is possible they* were reasonably competent in trying to locate the phylactery before the battle and simply failed. Failure does not equal incompetence.
* By they, I mean Roy & Durkon while searching for Xykon before forming the party. Thanks to the prequel we have a pretty tight record of time between the party forming and challenging Xykon, but there are a couple of years R & D had to research everything. I'm not insisting they did; I'm just showing that they could have.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Throknor
However, since they considered Xykon
defeated, once and for all they clearly had no idea that a phylactery existed. Two possibilities come to mind: 1) They didn't know such things existed. 2) The spells on it made it invisible to location spells, so they (or just Eugene) assumed it didn't exist.
#2 amounts to a combination of, "They assumed--bearing in mind that Roy's initial purpose in getting involved in this mission was to prove to his father that magic isn't invincible--that if their detection magics didn't pick up a specific item that happened to be the most valuable possession of a sorcerer they knew to be more powerful than Eugene ever was, that meant there was no such item in existence to find" with, "They somehow thought a phylactery was an optional extra for a lich." That's before we get to Eugene and Roy's exchange being, :roy: *baffled eyebrows* "How is that possible?" "He's got a thingamajabber...[explains the very basics of how phylacteries work]" not, "You mean he had a phylactery after all?" "Yes!"
That being the case, no. I don't think it's evidence of incompetence (except possibly in Durkon) that they didn't know about the phylactery; Knowledge (Religion) is cross-class for Roy. But if I were to contemplate anything that involved, "They knew about the concept of liches' phylacteries, but, upon not finding one for Xykon, assumed Xykon was gone for good," that would result in my already-low opinion of the Order's competence being significantly downgraded.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
ThePhantasm
I'm
genuinely curious how you would like to respond to
my argument on the last page that you created a fallacious false dichotomy. Or are we abruptly finished with that whole discussion?
A possible explanation for this could be that your annoyance has finally earned you a place on Forikroder's Ignore List. :-P
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
lio45
A possible explanation for this could be that your annoyance has finally earned you a place on Forikroder's Ignore List. :-P
Possibly so, though why he'd be annoyed that I gave him what he asked for (clear examples of V bragging about how smart he is) is beyond me. :smalltongue:
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Kish
#2 amounts to a combination of, "They assumed--bearing in mind that Roy's initial purpose in getting involved in this mission was to prove to his father that magic isn't invincible--that if their detection magics didn't pick up a specific item that happened to be the most valuable possession of a sorcerer they knew to be more powerful than Eugene ever was, that meant there was no such item in existence to find" with, "They somehow thought a phylactery was an optional extra for a lich." That's before we get to Eugene and Roy's exchange being,
:roy: *baffled eyebrows* "How is that possible?" "He's got a thingamajabber...[explains the very basics of how phylacteries work]" not, "You mean he had a phylactery after all?" "Yes!"
That being the case, no. I don't think it's evidence of incompetence (except possibly in Durkon) that they didn't know about the phylactery; Knowledge (Religion) is cross-class for Roy. But if I were to contemplate anything that involved, "They knew about the concept of liches' phylacteries, but, upon not finding one for Xykon, assumed Xykon was gone for good," that would result in my already-low opinion of the Order's competence being significantly downgraded.
OK, forgot that exchange. I was just brainstorming why if they knew of phylacteries they didn't follow-up about it. But clearly they did not.
So then we might be back to Roy got all of his information about Xykon from his father. Of course, Eugene seemed certain Roy would fail and had told him in the first place only so he'd tell his sister. Also, once the sword was shattered he couldn't immediately appear and say 'By the way, you have to find his thingamajabber'. But yes, Roy & Durkon failed some knowledge there, though whether they never looked or simply never found it by looking in the wrong places is indeterminable.
But I'd still hold that at that point in time there was no reason to notice Redcloak in particular during the fight. And other than Belkar they had no interest in slaughtering goblins that were running away (or outright surrendering) once Xykon was defeated. With their bad Spot check's plus being busy checking the treasure they missed this exchange entirely, even though it would have been in the same cavern and was very suspicious.
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Re: OOTS #857 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
it would be a decent delaying tactic to kill Redcloak if they realised that Redcloak is as neccesary as Xykon to control a gate
They didn't.