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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Except that's not entirely true. Again, I refer you to Holden's little essay, which says that Samsara can be wrong, and that the PC's can break a prophecy fueled by Samsara.
When you attune to the artifact, your anima does show, but it decreases as normal. So, unless you're trying to attune under the eyes of a Immacualte monk or something, you should spend peripheral on attuning.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
...Isn't Samasara just the in-universe explanation for the role the ST plays?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reynard
...Isn't Samasara just the in-universe explanation for the role the ST plays?
Players too.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yuki Akuma
Your anima will show when you attune to the artifact. After the cooldown period it won't flare again unless you spend more peripheral motes.
Always attune artifacts with your peripheral motes. There is literally no down side.
Yeah, but then whenever you spend a singe peripheral mote, your Anima Banner goes to that amount + the attunement cost, which means you may very well go Totemic in no time at all.
That's what I thought it was anyway
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
What? No...anima banners only look at how much you've spent in a scene, not how much you've spend your entire exalted life.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IcarusWings
Yeah, but then whenever you spend a singe peripheral mote, your Anima Banner goes to that amount + the attunement cost, which means you may very well go Totemic in no time at all.
That's what I thought it was anyway
Er except no not at all that's stupid?
Commited motes don't count towards your anima banner except for the moment you actually spend them.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IcarusWings
Yeah, but then whenever you spend a singe peripheral mote, your Anima Banner goes to that amount + the attunement cost, which means you may very well go Totemic in no time at all.
Crap, that's what I meant. IS that true?
Apologies, I misremembered :smallredface:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kobold-Bard
Crap, that's what I meant. IS that true?
Apologies, I misremembered :smallredface:
No it isn't that's stupid and not how commited essence works at all.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yuki Akuma
So you think that Samsara records everything you were going to do anyway?
So... how has this changed anything?
Before, my character's choices mattered. My character could change the course of nations, bring prosperity or ruin to millions, and wear any shirt I wanted to. Now? All those decisions are pre-scripted. If I tople the Realm, it is because Samsara said the Realm would fall to my armies. If I wear a blue shirt, it is because Samsara said I would wear a blue shirt.
Does it matter at the table? Not practically. I still have free will and the outcome of my actions is uncertain, but only because I have free will in the real world and the outcome of a die roll is uncertain. In game, though, my character has no real choice. Everything that happens one way and not another happens because Samsara said so. I can't tell Samsara "Screw You!" because Samsara said I would tell Samsara "Screw You!"
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
You seem to be missing the metaphysical point. When you go "lolno" and ignore them, Samsara said you would do that. The Maidens just get to look at the script, while you don't. Your actions are accounted for in Samsara, but you are merely ignorant of the fact.
Re-read the quotes from Holden. Or I could just pick out the relevant part...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden
This is entirely wrong.
(Okay, that seems meaner than intended. Still true though)
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
I am going to focus on just one subject of this discussion for now, if thats okay with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
You really think that someone with four perfect Virtues could take a walk down the streets of any city in Creation without suffering multiple Virtue compulsions? Especially when he will hear everything hearable, see everything seeable, and know everything it is possible to deduce from what he percieves? If he takes one step outside the Celestial Pleasure Dome, he will find himself dragged along by his Virtues until he gets caught in an ethical conundrum and forced to suppress his Virtues and his uberCharms. He pretty explicitly knows this to happen. This version of the Unconquered Sun is as pathetic as most people believe the Ebon Dragon to be.
While the Sun would have to act or suppress his virtues if he walked through a city in creation I believe that he could go there without having to suppress his virtues even once (if we ignore his oath of non interference). Also from his personal history it is clear that the reason he don't act isn't and has never been that he is afraid to lose his powers. Because you know what? creating a situation where he has to suppress a virtue is very hard to do because he always can choose to stick to his ideals his panoply charms mean that he is greatest when he does so.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
Before, my character's choices mattered. My character could change the course of nations, bring prosperity or ruin to millions, and wear any shirt I wanted to. Now? All those decisions are pre-scripted. If I tople the Realm, it is because Samsara said the Realm would fall to my armies. If I wear a blue shirt, it is because Samsara said I would wear a blue shirt.
Does it matter at the table? Not practically. I still have free will and the outcome of my actions is uncertain, but only because I have free will in the real world and the outcome of a die roll is uncertain. In game, though, my character has no real choice. Everything that happens one way and not another happens because Samsara said so. I can't tell Samsara "Screw You!" because Samsara said I would tell Samsara "Screw You!"
You are seriously misunderstanding what Samsara is.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yuki Akuma
Er except no not at all that's stupid?
Commited motes don't count towards your anima banner except for the moment you actually spend them.
I knew that was what it was for committed motes, I just thought attunement worked slightly differently. :smallredface:
...
Well don't I look stupid now
*slinks away*
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IcarusWings
...
Well don't I look stupid now
...
That wasn't my intent, sorry :smallfrown:
My request is for another game I'm in, where flaring up like a madman would be bad, very bad (apparently).
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
...but only because I have free will in the real world and the outcome of a die roll is uncertain.
Actually, unless we can somehow disprove causality, free will doesn't exist in the real world either. If logic exists at all, then we're just in a giant skinner box, reacting to billions of variables too discrete for the human mind to interpret. We'll always make the same choice, given the same variables.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rockbird
(Okay, that seems meaner than intended. Still true though)
Hey, you need the full quote, there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden
Examine the Maidens' stat block.
You see the Charm that lets them enforce their visions on Creation as a perfect effect?
No, you don't, because it isn't in there.
Glories: Maidens outlines the mechanical repercussions of samsara. To wit, consulting it imposes an irresistible compulsion on the Maidens to act in accordance with it and powers their Charms up while they're doing so.
That's it.
If Venus consults samsara and it says "you should **** PC X," she's going to try to **** PC X and will be able to bend the full power of her Charms toward shagging him. Note that this is an open-ended goal, so she can pursue it pretty much indefinitely at full power.
If Venus consults samsara and it says "PC X is going to whip his **** out in front of you right now," and she says "ha, you're going to whip your **** out in front of me" to the PC…
…well, nothing.
There's no Total Control effect exerted.
No Shaping occurs.
Nothing happens.
PC X's player, Bob, is free to declare that Bob gives Venus a very odd look and leaves. And his character will do that.
And Venus's mind will be totally blown because that's never happened before.
Edit: There's also the bit where the Maidens occasionally don't consult it when they should, just because they're afraid they'll get a result they don't like and be forced to carry it through. Which means even the Maidens can flip it the bird, and they're the height of being bound by destiny.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
You know, I wish Samsara was sentient, because trolling Venus with constant "you will **** person x" would be hilarious.
Especially if "x" include Ma-Ha-Suchi, the Ebon Dragon and Joe the Farmer.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Xefas
Actually, unless we can somehow disprove causality, free will doesn't exist in the real world either. If logic exists at all, then we're just in a giant skinner box, reacting to billions of variables too discrete for the human mind to interpret. We'll always make the same choice, given the same variables.
not necessary.
The reason for why is rather complex and involves Quantum Physics.
finally, even if we always make the same choice in the same situation with the same experience, that wouldn't mean we didn't have free will just that we are consistent.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kobold-Bard
That wasn't my intent, sorry :smallfrown:
My request is for another game I'm in, where flaring up like a madman would be bad, very bad (apparently).
Don't worry, I'm only joking around. I'm used to being made to look stupid compared to the fine minds on this forum. :smallbiggrin:
(That's part of why I always attatch something along the lines of 'that's what I thought anyway' to any objective statement I make, so when I am inevitably proved wrong, hopefully people realise I'm just ignorant, rather than an ass) :smallwink:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
But what if they think you're an ignorant ass? http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/...mot-ohdear.png
Edit: On second though, image leaching is bad, even if it's just an emote. Re-hosted.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
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Originally Posted by
Turalisj
Erm, what? The applies only to mortals. And even then, only to non-heroic mortals. DB's and heroic mortals can affect fate a bit, and celestial exalts can say 'screw destiny'.
But they can't change Samsara. No one can.
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You aren't a badass ninja if you take ESS. Trust me. You are a master of misdirection and avoiding being caught if you take ESS. Yes, that is part of being a ninja, but that doesn't make you a badass one, just a good one.
Same thing with Crane style. You don't become a great teacher by punching your students into sticky red paste, you become one by teaching them self control and not striking before they know the situation.
First Pulse stylists would like to give you a word or two on the subject. And by word they mean "beating". The Orgiastic Fugitive stylists would be offended, but they were too high to care.
Humor aside, what about Crane Style actually makes you a better teacher? Only one Charm in the whole style lets you help anyone learn anything and then not by much.
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He doesn't walk down the streets of Creation though. If he did, there wouldn't be an Immaculate Faith. He stays inside of the CPD because it means he doesn't have to deal with his virtues and with what is going on outside. If he stopped supressing his Temperance, then maybe he'd go outside and start fixing things.
That's exactly my point. He doesn't go anywhere in Creation because if he did, he'd be screwed. His addiction to the Games of Divinity isn't what keeps him at the Pleasure Dome, it's his own retarded Charms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tavar
Except that's not entirely true. Again, I refer you to Holden's little essay, which says that Samsara can be wrong, and that the PC's can break a prophecy fueled by Samsara.
Holden's essay does not say Samsara can be wrong. It makes an end run around the issue by saying that seeing something occur in Samsara doesn't mean your PCs can't do something else. That is a case of real life imposing itself upon the game. I can't tell you what you are going to do. I can't flawlessly predict it either. So if I tell you you are going to do something and you don't like it, nothing I do can stop you from doing it.
As an in-game concept, though, Samsara has never been wrong. There have been things the Maidens couldn't see within Samsara, but that doesn't mean they weren't there. It just means the Maidens couldn't see them. Having Samsara as the overscript is toxic to a setting about making choices and dealing with the consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yuki Akuma
You are seriously misunderstanding what Samsara is.
Then explain it to me in a way that doesn't strip free will from everything in the setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guancyto
Edit: There's also the bit where the Maidens occasionally don't consult it when they should, just because they're afraid they'll get a result they don't like and be forced to carry it through. Which means even the Maidens can flip it the bird, and they're the height of being bound by destiny.
That they don't look doesn't mean they flipped Samsara the bird. If one Maiden were to observe Samsara as another Maiden acted without consulting Samsara, they'd see that Samsara perfectly predicts the actions of the ignorant Maiden. The Ignorant Maiden is just unaware of what Samsara is predicting. She's a fool believing herself to have free will.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
But they can't change Samsara. No one can.
PC's can.
Samsara is just the pointless in-universe explanation for your gaming group.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Samsara is like quantum foam. It's in many states at once and only collapses into a specific series of events if someone (the Maidens) looks at it.
That Yozi is such a big deal because if he woke up he'd look at all of it at once all the time and lock existence into predestination.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
That's exactly my point. He doesn't go anywhere in Creation because if he did, he'd be screwed. His addiction to the Games of Divinity isn't what keeps him at the Pleasure Dome, it's his own retarded Charms.
NO. That is not why he act as he does, he stay in the pleasure dome because he is addicted, if it was just his charms (which don't turn off at the drop off a hat like you seem to think) he would go out there anyway.
You know how I know that? because thats what he did in the one cannon situation where that has happenned, back with Prince Lashe.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
Then explain it to me in a way that doesn't strip free will from everything in the setting.
Well, the way I understand Samsara from reading it and whatnot is that it's not this script saying everything that will ever happen. It's this recording of what has happened. So, it doesn't say "PC X will do Y." It doesn't say anything until after PC X does Y, and then it records it.
So that's not to say that free will doesn't exist, that's not what Samsara is. Free will exists, PCs exert it, and then Samsara writes it down afterwards. Some people can peer into the future and see what Samsara wrote, but that doesn't mean that people didn't decide to do those things, and I guess looking into the future and seeing what Samsara wrote about PC's decisions potentially gives PCs a chance to change those decisions. In setting, this has never happened before, because in setting, there have never been PCs before. And, you know, PCs are special.
Anyways, that's what I'm getting from all this.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reynard
PC's can.
Samsara is just the pointless in-universe explanation for your gaming group.
This. Your group is Samsara. What is written in Samsara? That's your f***king game notes. :smallannoyed:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yuki Akuma
Samsara is like quantum foam. It's in many states at once and only collapses into a specific series of events if someone (the Maidens) looks at it.
That Yozi is such a big deal because if he woke up he'd look at all of it at once all the time and lock existence into predestination.
That's as rediculous as Schrodinger's Cat.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kyeudo
That's as rediculous as Schrodinger's Cat.
Except Samara is magic in a fictional setting that explicitly doesn't work like the real world.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalisj
This. Your group is Samsara. What is written in Samsara? That's your f***king game notes. :smallannoyed:
Which means that in all probability Yuki can, in fact, troll Venus like that. :smallamused: I'm not sure I actually buy that explanation, but it has its merits.
One thing to note is that he says that the Maidens have never seen samsara be wrong, which isn't to say that it can't be wrong. The key here is that the Maidens are compelled to prove samsara right. For the times they don't consult it... really, who knows?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate
Yeah, it's almost as rediculous as the world being flat. Or gods and stuff actually existing in some form of bueracracy.
O WAIT!