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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Kish
And, in fact, he did mess up by apologizing to Malack's face and continuing to manipulate him as part of a ridiculous scheme to get Nale and Malack to go back to regarding each other as allies, which was doomed from the start and ended in Malack's destruction.
hes just incapable of understanding that his sons are incompetent, he keeps thinking that if he sets the stage properly theyll show what they are capable of
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
You are correct in the first part, but the only reason Tarquin succeeded was because he understands stories, and happens to live in a world where understanding stories translates to real power. And virtually all of Tarquin's actions with the Linear Guild were examples of his emotions causing him to act stupidly and hurt him over the long term. About the only thing that isn't an example of this is how he reacted when Malack went off on him, and that was a powerful vampire cleric snake who also was a lynchpin in his plan to control the continent. Messing that up by not acquiescing would have been almost impressively stupid on Tarquin's part
It depends on what someone's longer term goals are doesn't it?
Tarquin is still, along with the rest of his group sans Malack, in control over an entire continent. He's learned a lot more about his other son than he has before and given that other son a reason to come back and overthrow him even stronger than the ones he already has. In the process, he probably shored up the loyalty to the rest of his group by showing that he's willing to dispose of his own son if needed if that son attacks one of their own.
Remember that conversation with Elan on the rooftop? If Elan comes back and overthrows him then he's fine with that. He'll go down a legend after ruling as an emperor for 40-50 years. If Elan fails, then he still wins because he gets to continue ruling afterward.
THAT'S his longer term goal. Either to stay in power until he dies or to be overthrown by his son and become a legend. Neither goal has really suffered.
Tarquin's actions with the Linear Guild haven't really hurt him all THAT much aside from losing Malack. That's the big exception. And really, that's as much on Malack as it is on Tarquin because he chose a really bad time to decide to create a new child. A vampire cleric of his standing should ALWAYS keep a "Protection from Sunlight" spell in reserve.
But, aside from losing Malack, what exactly did Tarquin really lose from that entire story arc?
I don't disagree that Tarquin has his own set of issues. Ego being primary among them. But he does not strike me as someone who just flies off the handle and is unable to control himself on a regular basis.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Chei
I mean, Andi has seemed to be the Tarquin of this thread, given that people are bending over backwards to justify her actions or argue for her competence when she's shown every sign of being petty, petulant, and egotistical. She snapped when her ego was attacked, not over the state of the ship. That sounds pretty familiar to me.
This is some Meta stuff right here
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Kish
And, in fact, he did mess up by apologizing to Malack's face and continuing to manipulate him as part of a ridiculous scheme to get Nale and Malack to go back to regarding each other as allies, which was doomed from the start and ended in Malack's destruction.
Part of Tarquin's character, IMO, was that Tarquin had an inflated opinion of his own competence. In particular, his ability to flatter or manipulate disparate individuals into accomplishing his goals, even if those individuals would never willingly have done what he wished if he just explained to them forthrightly what he was up to.
Why else would have have set up a three-way confidence scheme involving playing multiple empires in the western continent off on each other?
...
Okay, granted, someone who can pull that off has a justifiably high opinion of their skills at bluff and manipulation, but even with such talents there are still limits. Trying to manipulate Malack and Nale into allying again was simply beyond his skill.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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THAT'S his longer term goal. Either to stay in power until he dies or to be overthrown by his son and become a legend. Neither goal has really suffered.
im willing to bet the goal has changed, Elan left without setting up the proper flags and hes already shown hes not happy with Elan being subordinate to anyone
i think hes gonna burn the empires down and set himself up as the real final boss, change his goal to destroy the world so that Elan has no choice but to come stop him
i think Ians rebellion is going to suceed only to find out Tarquin is done with the empire and they will find some hint as to what it is and they rush it to the OoTS after Kraagors gate is done
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Dr.Zero
So what should Bandana have done exactly, you ask.
From the POV of the crew: give up.
I will never tire enough to point it up: the crew doesn't care about the end of the world and doesn't seem to take it seriously at all (according to the 200gp strip).
Compared IRL they seemed to consider the heroes either rambling lunatics "the end is nigh" kind, or people who think their mission is much more important than it really is.
And she didn't even really tried to explain that the danger is real: managed to calm them down with some money and called that a day.
Endangering their lives to follow the delusions of someone who can be some lunatic, justified mutiny (exactly as it would happen IRL if someone tells YOU to put YOUR life in danger because the "end is nigh").
From her POV? This is more complex, but being surrounded by the enemy doesn't seem never a good idea, at least if you don't think the enemy is so weak that them surrounding you doesn't matter at all.
If the ship could move very fast, outrunning the giants taking some damage would have been a reasonable options, but it was specifically said that it wasn't the case, worse, they were constantly being surpassed by V and Haley (flying: 60 feet), meaning that their speed was very close to the moving speed of the giants (40 feet) and can be easily outrunned by the giants if they hustle a little! And this means that they can't really outrun the giants, leaving them behind, but must count on someone (in this case Belkar) doomsealing them before they attack again.
All this said, personally (and I explained that already in a post some strips ago) I would have stopped immediately and asked to the heroes do their job: being heroic and cleaning the ground, following them slowly and helping them here and there with some alchemist fire, if that was possibly, specially if the giants, to face the heroes, started to gather in small areas (and helping them with those crates of healing potions they seem to have on the ship).
Considering the speed of the ship, at least they would have the advantage of facing the giants only from the front side.
Would you have done the same, or ran in the middle of the unknown enemy?
If the you chose the first option, then Bandana -aside being a bad captain from the POV of the crew- is a bad captain even from your tactical POV. :smalltongue:
Surely she is from mine.
:smallsigh:
The end is nigh comparison is completely ludicrous. The fact that someone is desperate enough to stop the Order to send this many well equipped Frost Giants after them should be plenty of proof in itself that the threat they're trying to stop is real, akin to a giant portal to hell opening up in the sky next to a real world doomsayer. The fact that the don't know whats in their best interest is precisely why they have a captain to make decisions for them in the first place.
Not that the opinion of the crew is really relevant since their opinion had nothing to do with the mutiny. Andi attacked Bandana in a moment of rage and her reasons had far more to do with her jealousy than logic. The rest of the crew look shocked and horrified at what she did, hell she looks shocked and horrified at what she did.
The ship was being passed by Haley and V when it was flying at safe speeds, Bandana recently had the crew increase the speed specifically to prevent the Frost Giants from catching up and it worked. Also as pointed out earlier the giants are on foot in mountainous terrain while the Mechane is flying, they won't be able to catch up just by running since they actually have to deal with the terrain.
And your solution is frankly a terrible idea. There are hundreds of Frost Giants in this single pass alone, if you try to clear it out on foot then they can bumrush the Order and put them in the ground, not to mention use magic to call for backup from the forces they likely have guarding the other passes to take you in the rear. Or just stall for time, this is a timed mission remember? The world doesn't have the luxury of the Order taking their sweet time clearing up the pass the slow way. They could kill every giant in that pass without taking a single casualty and it wouldn't matter one whit because it would take so long that Hel's clerics finish their task long before they can get there and the gods nuke everything including the Mechane. There's a reason Scroundrel ordered the crew to ferry the Order while he went off to chill in the Outer Planes, if they can't complete their mission then everyone still on the planet is going to die.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
In fairness to Tarquin, he probably assumed that any Nale/Malack confrontation would end in Malack's destruction. That's a pretty fair assessment given Nale's previous track record.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Note to self: The entire crew is comprised of Andi.
You lost this, while snipping. :smallwink:
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Originally Posted by
Dr.Zero
I will never tire enough to point it up: the crew doesn't care about the end of the world and doesn't seem to take it seriously at all (according to the 200gp strip).
Compared IRL they seemed to consider the heroes either rambling lunatics "the end is nigh" kind, or people who think their mission is much more important than it really is.
And she didn't even really tried to explain that the danger is real: managed to calm them down with some money and called that a day.
[B]Endangering their lives to follow the delusions of someone who can be some lunatic, justified mutiny (exactly as it would happen IRL if someone tells YOU to put YOUR life in danger because the "end is nigh").
So my explanation of that strip is that they don't care/don't believe and don't want to be involved if not paid. Since being paid and then dying doesn't do them any good (since anyway they are not paid enough to cover the expenses of a raise and have not the time to give the money to some hypothetical little starving child), my logic dictates that the most probably explanation is that they consider dying for this cause bad (and consequently a bad captain who makes them die for this cause).
Can you illustrate what does lead you to a different conclusion, instead?
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Originally Posted by
hamishspence
Given how rocky it is - the Giants are not going to be able to move in straight lines the way the ship can, without Fly spells.
Yes, that is probably, I did take it in account when I did a similar analysis some strips ago (I'm continually amazed at how often I am screwed by not being pedantic enough :smallbiggrin:) but at that point the giants cannot gather to a point easily either, so dispatching the single small groups one by one would have been even easier for the heroes (surely easier than splitting in three groups and risking to be surrounded singularly, which is what they are doing right now).
Oh, I'm not a strategic genius. Being not surrounded (or flanked), keeping a tight formation and dividing and surrounding the enemy is considered basic wisdom during a battle (usually even in D&D).
Charging head on as we see in these strips? Usually not so much. :smallbiggrin:
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Originally Posted by
Unbodied
And your solution is frankly a terrible idea. There are hundreds of Frost Giants in this single pass alone, if you try to clear it out on foot then they can bumrush the Order and put them in the ground,
Well, if you didn't notice, they are doing basically that. Killing the giants before they hit the ship and if someone survives, leaving it to Belkar, before it can attack again /find a way to follow the ship.
If you move slowly between them or if you stop and fight them, their number doesn't change: they are hundreds anyway.
The difference is only that in my way you fight it on your own terms, in your way, you give them the option to surround you. Suit yourself. But then don't complain if someone who is going to die because surrounded wrenches your head. :smallsmile:
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Originally Posted by
Unbodied
not to mention use magic to call for backup from the forces they likely have guarding the other passes to take you in the rear.
Again, the difference with what they can do if you move slowly between their ranks is?
They can use the same magic, calling the same other giants, and placing them where they need in the same way.
In that case my strategy is screwed, yes. But in that case, they are screwed even more easily here, since they are already falling apart.
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Originally Posted by
Unbodied
Or just stall for time, this is a timed mission remember?
Again, since we are moving at 40-50 feets (no more, since they are outrunned by the flying guys) -which is basically close to walking speed- and then we must wait for who is behind, what is the difference if the heroes who must wait for the ship or the ship who must wait for Belkar?
This leaving aside the obvious fact that the ship must manage to move over the pass in the first place anyway, so the safer tactic, the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unbodied
The world doesn't have the luxury of the Order taking their sweet time clearing up the pass the slow way. They could kill every giant in that pass without taking a single casualty and it wouldn't matter one whit because it would take so long that Hel's clerics finish their task long before they can get there and the gods nuke everything including the Mechane. There's a reason Scroundrel ordered the crew to ferry the Order while he went off to chill in the Outer Planes, if they can't complete their mission then everyone still on the planet is going to die.
Yes, I remember the plot, and it doesn't seem to make any difference, tactically. :smallsmile:
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Spellbreaker26
In fairness to Tarquin, he probably assumed that any Nale/Malack confrontation would end in Malack's destruction. That's a pretty fair assessment given Nale's previous track record.
he thought that Nale would perform so impressingly hed be able to convince the party that hes way too valuable to just kill off based on a grudge
Bussiness over Pleasure
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Charging head on as we see in these strips? Usually not so much.
your missing some points
the Mechane is a big huge kill me sign, they cant protect it the conventional way, its too big a target to intercept the rocks, so they had the members with most mobility mow down targets before they had a chance to fight, and it worked at first since we see they were quite a bit ahead of the Mechane killing all the giants until the clerics held them up
Roy and Elan simply cannot display similar mobility since they are melee so keeping them with the ship is the best way to utilize them
plus they had a timeline they had to meet, with infinite time the OoTS would probably have gone ahead, killed everything in the pass and have the Mechane follow much slower
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
But, aside from losing Malack, what exactly did Tarquin really lose from that entire story arc?
His cool.
Tarquin is very rational and pragmatic when things go his way. When they don't, he'll go out of his way to rectify that. If he can't, he becomes unhinged. That's not the recipe to gain your comrades' loyalty. He was happy with Elan deposing him as long as he went about it the "right" way, but that's not likely to happen.
I wonder how long it took him to recover from losing his first conquest on the Western Continent. That must have been tough on his self-image too.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
It depends on what someone's longer term goals are doesn't it?
Tarquin is still, along with the rest of his group sans Malack, in control over an entire continent. He's learned a lot more about his other son than he has before and given that other son a reason to come back and overthrow him even stronger than the ones he already has. In the process, he probably shored up the loyalty to the rest of his group by showing that he's willing to dispose of his own son if needed if that son attacks one of their own.
Remember that conversation with Elan on the rooftop? If Elan comes back and overthrows him then he's fine with that. He'll go down a legend after ruling as an emperor for 40-50 years. If Elan fails, then he still wins because he gets to continue ruling afterward.
THAT'S his longer term goal. Either to stay in power until he dies or to be overthrown by his son and become a legend. Neither goal has really suffered.
Tarquin's actions with the Linear Guild haven't really hurt him all THAT much aside from losing Malack. That's the big exception. And really, that's as much on Malack as it is on Tarquin because he chose a really bad time to decide to create a new child. A vampire cleric of his standing should ALWAYS keep a "Protection from Sunlight" spell in reserve.
But, aside from losing Malack, what exactly did Tarquin really lose from that entire story arc?
I don't disagree that Tarquin has his own set of issues. Ego being primary among them. But he does not strike me as someone who just flies off the handle and is unable to control himself on a regular basis.
Ten gold says he'll be overthrown off-panel. Also, he is very likely also down Lauren in addition to Malack. Losing two members of his team to an objective he didn't even care about seems pretty shortsighted and incompetent.
Also, Malack did keep a Protection from Sunlight spell in reserve. He used it.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
Far be it for me to argue against Word of God on something.
Ah, my the thread I curate's specialty!
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Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
But wasn't the idea of him and his band ruling three separate kingdoms together and occasionally rotating around to maintain power and avoid being overthrown his? Also, weren't "the longstanding protocols" that he invoked to obtain Malack's cooperation with Nale his?
Rich may have intended Tarquin to be portrayed as something else, but given his accomplishments he seems like he's done pretty well to me.
While true....
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Originally Posted by
The Giant
Tarquin provides insight into narrative roles that translates to actual concrete power in the OOTS world. You can make plans based on those things and they work. Basically, his contribution was to take five powerful evil people and keep them from making the same mistakes that clichéd villains always make. He has since revised that into believing that he is their leader and master strategist. He is, in a very real way, the Elan of his team, only his team's goal is conquer everything instead of save the world.
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Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
I guess I'm just not remembering a whole lot of examples where Tarquin's emotions caused him to act stupidly or hurt him over the longer term.
Well, we don't have much chance to see a lot of examples:
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Originally Posted by
The Giant
There are two distinct portions of Tarquin's time in the comic. The first is everything up to when he joins the Linear Guild; the second is everything that happens in the Windy Canyon. The first chunk is largely intended to portray how Tarquin has behaved for his life up until now, the second chunk is the "breaking" of that status quo.
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Originally Posted by
The Giant
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Originally Posted by
Daimbert
I think that's one of the big issues here: why couldn't Tarquin BE a calm and collected person whose actions in the various aspects of his life all follow from his Evil character?
Because then there's no climax to the story?
He IS that, 99.999999999% of his life, but you are looking at his very worst day. Drama is all about taking characters and pushing them until they break, one way or the other. If a character can't be broken, then they have no place as a main character in a story. So writing a drama involves thinking of all the ways that your characters can be broken; this is the way that I chose for Tarquin.
I once read excellent writing advice that said, "Is this the most interesting time in your character's life? If not, why aren't you writing about that instead?" This is the most interesting time in Tarquin's life, because it's where the rubber of his self-image hits the road of reality. It's where his worldview is being challenged in a way that he can't just throw resources at it to fix it. Take away that conflict, that inherent crumbling of his previous cool, and there's nothing interesting to write about. There's just, "Oh, he was bad for a long time, but then the good guys fixed it by stabbing him." Boring.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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His cool.
Tarquin is very rational and pragmatic when things go his way. When they don't, he'll go out of his way to rectify that. If he can't, he becomes unhinged. That's not the recipe to gain your comrades' loyalty. He was happy with Elan deposing him as long as he went about it the "right" way, but that's not likely to happen.
I wonder how long it took him to recover from losing his first conquest on the Western Continent. That must have been tough on his self-image too.
ya he really lost his cool when 2 of his prisoner escaped and flipped him off while they flew off into the sunset
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Ten gold says he'll be overthrown off-panel. Also, he is very likely also down Lauren in addition to Malack. Losing two members of his team to an objective he didn't even care about seems pretty shortsighted and incompetent.
losing Lauren isnt his fault, shes calling the shots at the rift
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Dr.Zero
You lost this, while snipping. :smallwink:
So my explanation of that strip is that they don't care/don't believe and don't want to be involved if not paid. Since being paid and then dying doesn't do them any good (since anyway they are not paid enough to cover the expenses of a raise and have not the time to give the money to some hypothetical little starving child), my logic dictates that the most probably explanation is that they consider dying for this cause bad (and consequently a bad captain who makes them die for this cause).
Can you illustrate what does lead you to a different conclusion, instead?
I put forth as evidence every strip between when Roy offers to pay and the current strip, wherein literally nobody except for Andi complains about Bandana's captaining.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Forikroder
ya he really lost his cool when 2 of his prisoner escaped and flipped him off while they flew off into the sunset
You mean that time he explicitly said their every move made his victory more complete? You know, because his goal there was to put on a big show for the masses, and the prisoners delivered? That simply wasn't a threat to his world view and his self-image. It wouldn't unhinge him any more than, say, a bride-to-be turning him down ("for now", he'd say).
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
hrožila
You mean that time he explicitly said their every move made his victory more complete? You know, because his goal there was to put on a big show for the masses, and the prisoners delivered? That simply wasn't a threat to his world view and his self-image. It wouldn't unhinge him any more than, say, a bride-to-be turning him down ("for now", he'd say).
him losing his cool had nothing to do with his self-image, his problem was that Elan wasnt doing things in an optimal way, he wasnt following the story and he wasnt being the Hero Tarquin knew he could be and that infuriated him
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Ten gold says he'll be overthrown off-panel. Also, he is very likely also down Lauren in addition to Malack. Losing two members of his team to an objective he didn't even care about seems pretty shortsighted and incompetent.
Also, Malack did keep a Protection from Sunlight spell in reserve. He used it.
Two points.
1. How is Laurin's loss his fault? She bargained for the gate and explored it completely independent of him.
2. With regards to Malack, that's my point. He used it out in the middle of the desert because he made a snap decision to sire a new child on the spot. Again, how is that Tarquin's fault?
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
Remember that conversation with Elan on the rooftop?
You mean the one that included the strip titled "Spins of the Father," right? (Rhetorical question to highlight the name.)
We're in agreement that what matters for whether Tarquin counts as successful depends on his goals. We're not in agreement about the fertilizer content of his "if I win, I get to be a king, if I lose, I get to be a legend, so I win either way" claim. Look at how he actually reacted in his last few strips so far. His goals are, he wants to be the main villain: he can't have that, job's taken :xykon:. He wants the story to go the way he wants it: he didn't get that. He wants control over both his sons; they would rather die than give it to him. He wants no random prisoners to shove in his exalted face that they don't consider his face exalted: he didn't get that. He wanted Amun-Zora to become his next wife and rape victim: he's on track for her to kill him or die trying instead.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Forikroder
him losing his cool had nothing to do with his self-image, his problem was that Elan wasnt doing things in an optimal way, he wasnt following the story and he wasnt being the Hero Tarquin knew he could be and that infuriated him
That's true, he still thinks Elan is the protagonist and he's the Big Bad. But he also sees himself as being in control, and at the end of that book he wasn't.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
Two points.
1. How is Laurin's loss his fault? She bargained for the gate and explored it completely independent of him.
2. With regards to Malack, that's my point. He used it out in the middle of the desert because he made a snap decision to sire a new child on the spot. Again, how is that Tarquin's fault?
Tarquin effectively said, "hello, fellow team members. There is something in the desert that I neither want, nor care about. I require your assistance in going there!"
Tarquin directly brought them to their deaths. Sure, it's not 100% culpability, but if he hadn't been a petty control freak, they would still be alive.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Tarquin effectively said, "hello, fellow team members. There is something in the desert that I neither want, nor care about. I require your assistance in going there!"
Tarquin directly brought them to their deaths. Sure, it's not 100% culpability, but if he hadn't been a petty control freak, they would still be alive.
more like "hello fellow team members, theres a nuke in the middle of the desert that could completely ruin all our hard work, or finish it in an instant, lets go claim it"
theres no way they could have just ignored the gate
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I put forth as evidence every strip between when Roy offers to pay and the current strip, wherein literally nobody except for Andi complains about Bandana's captaining.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html
They don't talk a lot, but here other two seem to have some problems with the mission (and adventurers pissing off the giants, just to point out how the whole "end of the world" situation didn't stuck).
Other evidences? :smallsmile:
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
You mean the one that included the strip titled "Spins of the Father," right? (Rhetorical question to highlight the name.)
We're in agreement that what matters for whether Tarquin counts as successful depends on his goals. We're not in agreement about the fertilizer content of his "if I win, I get to be a king, if I lose, I get to be a legend, so I win either way" claim. Look at how he actually reacted in his last few strips so far. His goals are, he wants to be the main villain: he can't have that, job's taken :xykon:. He wants the story to go the way he wants it: he didn't get that. He wants control over both his sons; they would rather die than give it to him. He wants no random prisoners to shove in his exalted face that they don't consider his face exalted: he didn't get that. He wanted Amun-Zora to become his next wife and rape victim: he's on track for her to kill him or die trying instead.
Best counterpoints I've seen yet. Liking your posts.
But just because he's not the main villain of THIS story arc doesn't mean he won't be the main villain of some future story arc. If you'll recall, Elan has said previously that while the Xykon stuff is more important right now (and how could it not be? Hard to top a threat to destroy the entire world) he's also said he needs to come back and deal with his father afterward.
The story to go the way he wants it I'll concede the point. Tarquin has lost so far on that one in a big way.
Control over both his sons I think is a want, but not an absolutist one. It's a secondary concern. If it was a main one, he wouldn't have killed Nale to begin with. (And was absolutely calm afterwards about it!) Also, he never would have given Elan up to begin with!
I don't think he particularly cares about random prisoners. In fact, he made that work in his favor. He's framing Haley's father. (Another hook in on Elan for the future BTW.)
Amun-Zora got away from him, but she's the first one out of nine really. (And he was willing to let Elan and Nale's mother go so I don't think it's THAT important to him.) It also took direct interference from the PCs.
Personally, I think people are mistaking Tarquin not being omniscient and omnipotent with him being incompetent. No villain never has ANY setbacks.
I'm not blind to Tarquin's faults. They're part of what makes him a decent, well rounded villain. I just think people are going a bit overboard in their descriptions of them.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Forikroder
more like "hello fellow team members, theres a nuke in the middle of the desert that could completely ruin all our hard work, or finish it in an instant, lets go claim it"
theres no way they could have just ignored the gate
This.
Also, his team members are all experienced, powerful, high level characters. They're not little kids. They're responsible for their own decisions and actions.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pendell
Okay, granted, someone who can pull that off has a justifiably high opinion of their skills at bluff and manipulation, but even with such talents there are still limits. Trying to manipulate Malack and Nale into allying again was simply beyond his skill.
What you say is certainly true. But I see it from a slightly different direction...
Tarquin did not try something that was merely too hard. He made a very specific error: He insisted on seeing Nale as having a Little Tarquin inside that just needed a little help to get out. Because Tarquin's worldview is, of course, correct and Nale will understand if he stops acting so immature and emotional and thinks straight -- according to Tarquin.
There is a thing called Controlling Parents (google it), and the Nale/Tarquin relationship shows all the classic signs. In fact, Nale's very last act was to demand that his father simply let him be himself and stop interfering in his life, regardless of the consequences.
In the end, I felt genuinely sorry for Nale, in spite of the fact that a good clean murdering was a better fate than he really deserved. (Hats off to the Giant for that piece of writing.)
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Peelee
Ten gold says he'll be overthrown off-panel. Also, he is very likely also down Lauren in addition to Malack. Losing two members of his team to an objective he didn't even care about seems pretty shortsighted and incompetent.
Also, Malack did keep a Protection from Sunlight spell in reserve. He used it.
Wait a minute ... Lauren is permanently KO'd? The last we saw of her, her eyes had turned snarl-purple (presumably she contacted it psionically), and in the next panel Myron has grabbed her by the collar and is hauling her away as quickly as he can from an explosion of tentacles. It looks bad, yes, but IIRC he had contingency teleport, so unless Lauren's mind was destroyed in the initial contact she should still be in play.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr.Zero
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html
They don't talk a lot, but here other two seem to have some problems with the mission (and adventurers pissing off the giants, just to point out how the whole "end of the world" situation didn't stuck).
Other evidences? :smallsmile:
They complain when giants throw rocks; but after griping they go back to work. They clearly have significantly different priorities to Andi, as shown by how they (even the hitherto-useless sartorial adviser) work on fighting the giants rather than indulging in a petty spat.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
That she's not confirmed dead is presumably why Peelee said "very likely."
That's not how Contingency works. Miron casts Contingency (depending on what type of spellcaster he has, may well have not been able to cast it again yet if it's later the same day). After the ten-minute casting time of the spell, he designates a spell (which he also has to be able to cast at the time of the Contingency, and it/its slot are used up) to take effect on Miron under certain circumstances which he states then. If he recast the same Contingency that he demonstrated ("teleport me to A if I take B amount of damage/if I take more than C amount of damage in one round/if three different enemies all manage to do damage to me in one round/if my hit points drop below D/etc."), none of them will do him no good at all against a being that kills and devours souls in a single hit--he would have needed to switch it to something like "if I am ever within the threatened range of a creature more than twice the size of an adult elephant which I consider to be hostile"--and he seemed notably lacking in transportation abilities earlier that day (an observation which I hadn't made before which pushes me in the direction of "he's some kind of prepared caster," since he was provably able to put a Teleport in a Contingency).
So the question is whether Miron, Laurin, or both were able to get away, and it's a question which could easily get either answer.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nocoolnamejim
2. With regards to Malack, that's my point. He used it out in the middle of the desert because he made a snap decision to sire a new child on the spot. Again, how is that Tarquin's fault?
Tarquin crudely used fear of Malack's revenge to motivate his son to work with Malack. That gave his son, who is a crappy strategist, but has some inspired moments as a tactician, a very strong reason to plan to assassinate Malack ASAP.
The real problem was not that Malack used his back up spell. That could have been counterspelled or dispelled, too, because Malack does not have caster levels to compete with either the LG's or the Order's best spellcasters. The problem was the element of surprise that Nale savvily used to get the staff away from Malack.
The situation was caused by Tarquin's preferred style of manipulating people. He could have more openly and honestly cut a deal, but he did not feel like trying that method.
Of course, Malack did make a critical error. No, it was not using the spell on Durkon. Malack's error was trusting to Tarquin to take care of Nale's idiocy, out of deference to his agreement with Tarquin. Nale is exactly the kind of idiot who is extremely dangerous to those around him, but Malack and Tarquin do not understand (are too Lawful and full of themselves) to fully appreciate those qualities in Nale.
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Re: OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Snails
Tarquin crudely used fear of Malack's revenge to motivate his son to work with Malack. That gave his son, who is a crappy strategist, but has some inspired moments as a tactician, a very strong reason to plan to assassinate Malack ASAP.
The real problem was not that Malack used his back up spell. That could have been counterspelled or dispelled, too, because Malack does not have caster levels to compete with either the LG's or the Order's best spellcasters. The problem was the element of surprise that Nale savvily used to get the staff away from Malack.
The situation was caused by Tarquin's preferred style of manipulating people. He could have more openly and honestly cut a deal, but he did not feel like trying that method.
Of course, Malack did make a critical error. No, it was not using the spell on Durkon. Malack's error was trusting to Tarquin to take care of Nale's idiocy, having made an agreement with Tarquin. Nale is exactly the kind of idiot who is extremely dangerous to those around him, but Malack and Tarquin do not understand (are too Lawful and full of themselves) to fully appreciate those qualities in Nale.
Nale needed achievments before he could cut a deal, he cant just tell malack to leave nale alone