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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
ZeroNumerous
Sure, lets put aside the way the technique works, then leap to wild conclusions that fly in the face of how the technique works. You know, the technique animating said zombie? The technique you know about, and know exactly how it works? The one that you've encountered before, and have detailed information about?
Because, you know, they have that. They've experienced the technique before. They know for a fact that the zombies bodies act independently of their will.
Who did? Probably none of the random-nin around. And it's been a while but from what I recall the zombies were an unexpected part of the enemy forces so there probably was no Edo Tensei 101 by... who fought Edo Tensei zombies before? Apart from the dead Sarutobi?
(Unrelated to the established abilities of the technique for a sensible person it should make no sense that a person would be unable to control any of his body apart from the parts that you need to speak. It. Makes. No. Sense. Heck, I wouldn't believe it, to be honest and ignore anything an Edo zombie said unless I knew this was a story where stuff doesn't have to make sense.)
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The Second Mizukage never tries to kill anybody. We see him later surrounded by a bunch of bodies, but no blood is shown and he has no weapons in hand. While it's possible that he killed everyone it's rather unlikely that he did so with just his bare hands, and there would definitely be blood around them.
So... if he isn't trying to attack/kill anyone, what's his purpose? If he is a zombie without control over his body what would the enemy gain by not having him attack you? Why would there be a bunch of bodies if he didn't do anything?
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In short: Your argument has a faulty premise, because it presupposes that the ninja blatantly disregard knowledge they already have concerning the technique animating the zombies.
See above.
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It further stands on shaky ground concerning whether the Second Mizukage ever actually kills anyone, because the only person he actively tries to kill is the Third Tsuchikage.
Which just makes Kishi's writing or Kabuto's actions more stupid. Why would he not try to fight seriously if Mizukage was unable to control his body? What is he there for if not to kill enemy shinobi?
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Finally, the argument is just plain ludicrous. Throwing things at a mirage instead of moving around trying to catch the giant clam in the act? Because you have nothing better to do? That's just silly.
Well, those are two different points. 1) Should they trust anything Mizukage says due to knowledge they do not have? 2) Should they attack a mirage if they have no reliable/clear other target?
Their attacks on the clam don't do any good either once they stop attacking the illusion, iirc. So all the random-nin are just wasted effort anyway...
Okay, I hope that's that for this discussion... new chapter!
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Of course, more flashbacks!
Long story short: "Screw our friendship, you killed my brother! I want either your life or your brothers!" Yeah, Madara, real role model there. I guess crazy Uchiha brain disease is really bad...
I almost wish Tobirama would have just stabbed him... but it seems Hashirama is going to give in. From what history tells us.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
New Chapter!: Spoiler
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Well, I guess we know why the first hokage killed himself when creating the village with his huge tree creating technique. I think so, anyway.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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But he didnt, because he still have a final fight with Madara at a later point.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
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But he didnt, because he still have a final fight with Madara at a later point.
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I thought that was the fight we just saw the aftermath of?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
I have to ask, because I am very curious. Why do you bother to put things in spoilers, only to be incredibly vague about what you are saying anyways? I mean, the spoiler tags are there for you to explicitly spell things out. Its just, doing this, Spoiler
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oh so THATS what it means!
Is pointless, since even reading the spoiler you have no idea what I am talking about.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Kishi's ToC comment for issue #17:
"Tsukawanakunatta terebi no rimokon ga sanran ****ete doregadore da ka... seiriseiton daiji!"
Kishi's saying something about remote controls for unused televisions being scattered about and wondering which is for which... and the importance of keeping things tidy/in order.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Whats this? Meeting a reasonable request with a completely unreasonable request? Guess that's why he's Uchia, I guess.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
I have to ask, because I am very curious. Why do you bother to put things in spoilers, only to be incredibly vague about what you are saying anyways?
Is that a general statement or...?
I also got the impression the last scene was after the VotE battle. Though, of course this doesn't make much sense from what we were told about that battle before but...
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Well, it kind of does. It explains why they say Hashirama won but Madara was the one to survive. It doesn't explain why nobody knows the ******** story, though.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Kato
Is that a general statement or...?
I also got the impression the last scene was after the VotE battle. Though, of course this doesn't make much sense from what we were told about that battle before but...
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Well, it kind of does. It explains why they say Hashirama won but Madara was the one to survive. It doesn't explain why nobody knows the ******** story, though.
Its mostly general, its just something that has often irked me on this thread. I like the naruto story, but I dont read manga, so this is how I get my updates on the high points of what happened. So when I see a spoiler tag I get gleeful expecting some juicy details, only to read something like,
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Well, I guess we know why the first hokage killed himself when creating the village with his huge tree creating technique. I think so, anyway.
Seriously, I have no idea what this means, and im pretty sure only people who have also read the latest issue of the manga will get it. Saying the equivalent of, "I cant believe that happened!" doesnt need to be spoilered as it doesnt ruin anything. Had Zodiac included the actual REASON why the first hokage killed himself it would have needed a spoiler, but as of his post we just know we learn something about his massive technique this chapter. I am not picking on him in particular, a lot of posters do that, and honestly it happens in a lot of different threads, its just something that irks me. Call it a pet peeve.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
But we know that both Hashirama and Tobirama were alive after the village was founded, so he obviously didn't kill himself right after the battle.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Traab
Seriously, I have no idea what this means
That's because it doesn't make the least amount of sense. Just disregard it.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
darksolitaire
But we know that both Hashirama and Tobirama were alive after the village was founded, so he obviously didn't kill himself right after the battle.
I thought using that tree tecnique to create the village killed him, though. Ah well, I must of just forgotten, is all.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
Its mostly general, its just something that has often irked me on this thread. I like the naruto story, but I dont read manga, so this is how I get my updates on the high points of what happened. So when I see a spoiler tag I get gleeful expecting some juicy details, only to read something like,
Seriously, I have no idea what this means, and im pretty sure only people who have also read the latest issue of the manga will get it. Saying the equivalent of, "I cant believe that happened!" doesnt need to be spoilered as it doesnt ruin anything. Had Zodiac included the actual REASON why the first hokage killed himself it would have needed a spoiler, but as of his post we just know we learn something about his massive technique this chapter. I am not picking on him in particular, a lot of posters do that, and honestly it happens in a lot of different threads, its just something that irks me. Call it a pet peeve.
It's generally assumed that if you open the spoiler than you've already read the chapter. Frankly, if he hadn't spoilered what he said there are people who would have rather not seen the out of a spoiler tag.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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*Facepalm*
Please tell me... they are not about to use the Impure Ressurection Jutsu to bring back Madara's brother somehow...
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Silverraptor
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*Facepalm*
Please tell me... they are not about to use the Impure Ressurection Jutsu to bring back Madara's brother somehow...
Oh, gods no, I hope not.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kato
Who did? Probably none of the random-nin around. And it's been a while but from what I recall the zombies were an unexpected part of the enemy forces so there probably was no Edo Tensei 101 by... who fought Edo Tensei zombies before? Apart from the dead Sarutobi?
Uh, the entirety of Konoha. It originated there, and they know its weaknesses and strengths.
How about the Tsuchikage who had fought Deidara when Kabuto tried to kidnap Naruto from the turtle?
Or the entire conflict between the other ninja zombies who appeared before the Kage?
If you want to blatantly disregard events that happened in the manga, then feel free, but if you do then please don't bother continuing. We can't have a discussion if you're ignoring substantial events that happened prior to the appearance of the zombie Kage.
The allied army had already fought and successfully defeated several ninja zombies, many of whom expressly helped the army defeat them. It would be ludicrous to assume that they did not share information.
Which makes them incredibly stupid for disregarding the advice of this one specific zombie.
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Originally Posted by
Kato
(Unrelated to the established abilities of the technique for a sensible person it should make no sense that a person would be unable to control any of his body apart from the parts that you need to speak. It. Makes. No. Sense. Heck, I wouldn't believe it, to be honest and ignore anything an Edo zombie said unless I knew this was a story where stuff doesn't have to make sense.)
It makes plenty of sense. They're free to move their bodies, but their bodies react unconsciously to enemies. Just like how you have to train yourself not to close your eyes when something gets close to your eyeball. Kabuto's control over them is not absolute, that's why they still have their personalities, so he just has them reacting to attackers.
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Originally Posted by
Kato
So... if he isn't trying to attack/kill anyone, what's his purpose? If he is a zombie without control over his body what would the enemy gain by not having him attack you? Why would there be a bunch of bodies if he didn't do anything?
Why wouldn't there be a bunch of blood if he killed them? Even the clone of the Third Tsuchikage "bled" when it died.
His purpose is obvious: Delay the enemy so shinobi like the Second Tsuchikage can wipe out the entire army, or cover up the Third Raikage with mirages so he can go around killing ninja to his heart's content. Some critical thinking makes it trivial to figure out what his body was programmed to do.
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Originally Posted by
Kato
Which just makes Kishi's writing or Kabuto's actions more stupid. Why would he not try to fight seriously if Mizukage was unable to control his body? What is he there for if not to kill enemy shinobi?
Now that I have no answer for, because it would have been easy to just have the Second Mizukage just kill all the idiots present.
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Originally Posted by
Kato
Well, those are two different points. 1) Should they trust anything Mizukage says due to knowledge they do not have? 2) Should they attack a mirage if they have no reliable/clear other target?
Their attacks on the clam don't do any good either once they stop attacking the illusion, iirc. So all the random-nin are just wasted effort anyway...
On the first point: You're just ignoring things that happened in order to support your argument. They did have that knowledge, because the army had already encountered zombie ninjas, so any question of trusting the Mizukage or not is a question of "Do I feel like wasting my time and potentially getting killed in a combat situation?" If yes: Ignore the Mizukage. If no: Take his advice.
On the second point: That shouldn't even be a question. You know it won't work, so why waste the energy?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
ZeroNumerous
Uh, the entirety of Konoha. It originated there, and they know its weaknesses and strengths.
Um, no. Edo Tensei was and is a secret and forbidden technique, which by its definition is known by very few people. Those who knew the Second Hokage well probably knew about it, but most of those people are now old, many of them being retired, and most of the shinobi from back then probably didn't live to see old age.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
ZeroNumerous
Uh, the entirety of Konoha. It originated there, and they know its weaknesses and strengths.
What Morph said.
Okay, I forgot about Zombie Deidara. It's been a while but isn't all of this happening pretty much at once or within a much shorter time than would be necessary to educate everyone about the zombies from what little they know?
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It makes plenty of sense. They're free to move their bodies, but their bodies react unconsciously to enemies. Just like how you have to train yourself not to close your eyes when something gets close to your eyeball. Kabuto's control over them is not absolute, that's why they still have their personalities, so he just has them reacting to attackers.
Sorry, but there's quite a difference between a reflex to shield your eye and strategic use of jutsu in battle. Kabuto is clearly in control of their actions to a certain extent and there should be no difference between controlling an arm, a leg, whatever organ molds chakra and your tongue and vocal chords. Sure, they can have their personalities for all I care (be free to think whatever they want) but they shouldn't be able to talk freely if Kabuto doesn't want them to. (e.g. give away strategies)
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His purpose is obvious: Delay the enemy so shinobi like the Second Tsuchikage can wipe out the entire army, or cover up the Third Raikage with mirages so he can go around killing ninja to his heart's content. Some critical thinking makes it trivial to figure out what his body was programmed to do.
[...]
Now that I have no answer for, because it would have been easy to just have the Second Mizukage just kill all the idiots present.
That was my point. Why not kill the guys you are supossed to delay if he obviously should have the means to do so?
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On the first point: You're just ignoring things that happened in order to support your argument. They did have that knowledge, because the army had already encountered zombie ninjas, so any question of trusting the Mizukage or not is a question of "Do I feel like wasting my time and potentially getting killed in a combat situation?" If yes: Ignore the Mizukage. If no: Take his advice.
Okay, let's for the sake of the argument assume they have all information an in-universe random-nin should have about Edo Tensei. (Meaning, everything that can be derived from fighting them whil not being actually able to perform the jutsu)
There are still reasons not to trust them. Kabuto could be able to choose whether he controls their voice or not and could in this situation decide to control it to deceive them. Or the mizukage could just be a **** and lie to them to mislead them on his free will.
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On the second point: That shouldn't even be a question. You know it won't work, so why waste the energy?
Because if I was Mizukage/Kabuto the moment they stopped attacking my double I'd stop using a mirage and actually put myself there and start attacking with my real body doing real damage because nobody bothers paying attention to me anymore. It's not a valid reason not to attack him and the clam but it's a reason not just to ignore him.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
So I started on volume 12 of Shippuden. There was a bit of trepidation involved, since Will of Fire was so utterly stupendous that nothing was going to compare.
I thought "now where were we... oh yeah, tedium" as I listened for twenty minutes to "Madara" spieling more nonsense (which with the more recent "twists" looks increasingly silly) and the show trying to drum up support for Itachi. And then for Sasuke to immediately go "screw village over family, I'll just totally ignore everything that my brother was (ineptly) trying to do mwahahaha destroy everything1!" (I'm sort of glad Yuri Lowenthal is pretty ingrained as Sasuke by now, otherwise I'd be totally hearing Linkara's Superboy Prime voice every time he speaks...)
Bad sign Shippuden, when I'm going "I wish this main plot would hurry and get out the way so we can get back to fillers!"
And then Killer Bee showed up and everything was alright again.
Not only was he hilarious (while simultaneously hilariously bad and hilariously badass) - I genuinely wasn't expecting that, even from the things I've picked from the fandom - but he almost killed Sasuke twice in his first appearance. That makes him ooo-kay in my book!
Seriously, though, the first time he stuck Sasuke full of swords, I was like "yeah," *eyeglow roll* "and it's a shadow clone or something, it's always a shadow clone. Wait for it, any second now it's just going to *poof* and... annnnd... annnnd it's not a shadow clone! Dude just skewered real Sasuke! Bwahahahahahaha!"
Seeing Sasuke's smug superior attitude slip again and see him metaphorically crap himself a couple of times? Priceless.
(Look the show's been following my least favourite person in the entire series for like, a box set and a half or somethin', I'm allowed to laugh and point when bad things happen to him! The show ain't called Sasuke, after all!)
And next episode is filler again! Huzzah!
...
...
...
Naruto really has slipped downhill a bit since it started, hasn't it?
(Mind you, I liked a few of the pre-time skip fillers too, so there's that.)
1And people say the filler and movie villains have poor motivations...!
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Aww the killer b vs sasuke fight. I just love the look of fear in Sasuke, after being stabbed by four swords, thrown across the battlefield, and watching in slow motion the death blow about to hit him and there is nothing he can do about. Sasuke's eye (with the sharingan) coming to the realization that he is GOING TO DIE.
I also love at the beginning of the fight when they were feeling each other out, Sasuke kicked Killer B and B didn't flench, and then he just brings out his notepad and writes this
the pain in my chest baby
gotta be from your kick yo
so you aint gonna run away you ****, come on
my kickin is gonna make you groan ya prick
somthing somthing times tickin yeaa
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Naruto has slipped down a bit, yha. Unfortunately for Killer Bee, he technicaly lost that fight since simply having that piece of him allowed them to awaken the ten tails in the most current arc.
HOWEVER! Killer Bee gets the moral victory. He's the people's champion. He's literally the best character in Naruto, in my personal opinion. Who cares if the world's a gigantic, grimdark war with serious topics. I GOTTA GET MY RAP ON! BROFIST TO CONNECT OUR SOOOOULS AS ONE! BROFIST YOUR TAILED BEAST!
Killer Bee is basically the greatest.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Thanks to Aotrs Commander reminding me how awesome killer b is, I made a gif of the killer b vs sasuke fight (you might want to open the link in another tab)
Killer B showing Sasuke who is Boss
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
With Rock Lee having his adventures in the spinoff instead of here, yea, Killer Bee would be the best remaining character getting time.
Viz's translation of Kishi's ToC comment:
"I have all these useless TV remotes, and I can't tell which one does what anymore. Being organized is a virtue!"
Just a couple of quick notes for this chapter's comparison:
Huh, Panda didn't translate the chapter title. The 'aiko' here means draw/tie (as in to become even).
Panda says Uchiha Dajima.... it's supposed to be Tajima. It's a weird little error to make; it means that Panda was seeing ten-ten/dakuten marks for the Ta when actually there aren't any there. Great, now I can't even fully trust their vision.
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So, apparently finding out that Hashirama's a Senju was sufficient enough for Madara to internally DESPAIR enough to trigger the GUSH OF CHAKRA that causes the Sharingan mutation. Madara, are you a yandere for Hashirama?
...
"Either kill your brother, or yourself, for my trust"
...
*fast forward to present*
"You all suck. Except for Hashirama."
His trash talking in the present day takes on new undertones.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Madara has been upgraded to Nohman level yandere. "COME BACK DINGO I LIKE YOU" *shots him to death*
Also, I'm glad you agree with the Killer Bee thing. He's just all around fantastic. I mean yha he killed Kisame and he's kind of one of my favorite characters, but Kisame's sword fell in love with Killer Bee, it's hard not to be ok with what happened.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Morph Bark
Oh, gods no, I hope not.
Unfortunately,
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Given that Madara had enough knowledge of the technique to know it's weaknesses and how to overcome it, I think it's a foregone conclusion that SOMEBODY is going to get brought back, and Madara is going to have at least some contact with them. Izuna is the most likely candidate - although it is totally possible that Hashirama is going to kill himself to bring the Uchiha to the Leaf - and Tobirama is going to use Edo Tensei to bring him back.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Olinser
Unfortunately,
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Given that Madara had enough knowledge of the technique to know it's weaknesses and how to overcome it, I think it's a foregone conclusion that SOMEBODY is going to get brought back, and Madara is going to have at least some contact with them. Izuna is the most likely candidate - although it is totally possible that Hashirama is going to kill himself to bring the Uchiha to the Leaf - and Tobirama is going to use Edo Tensei to bring him back.
Though, to be blunt, I don't believe for a second Izuna is ACTUALLY dead. I mean he is supposedly a major reason behind Madara (and the Uchiha's) beef with Konoha, and yet every single character (and flashback) talking about him just says 'and he died later' (off panel). No, there's something else here, the author just hasn't seen fit to reveal it yet.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
The most entertaining way this series could end is a rematch of sasuke vs killer b. Somehow Killer B performs edo tensai bringing back kisame (via rapping) who promptly kicks sasuke's ass :smallwink:
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Ramza00
The most entertaining way this series could end is a rematch of sasuke vs killer b. Somehow Killer B performs edo tensai bringing back kisame (via rapping) who promptly kicks sasuke's ass :smallwink:
That would certainly be... interesting....
New chapter, chaps.
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Well, the beginning wasn't that unexpected... and somehow it seems like Tobirama is the reason behind all the hate, except he kind of has a point if the Uchiha are actually predestined to go crazy at some point. It's still no way to treat other people.
I guess Madara at that point decided to be the evil in the hope of somehow helping the Uchiha this way...?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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My theory is that Madara simply became aware of hs legacy, and drew his own conclusions. The way he speaks suggests he considers himself and Hashirama as essentially gods or supermen, so far above others that they could treat them as mere playthings.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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I forget. Were there any redeeming qualities to the Uchiha? Because this chapter continues to reinforce that no matter how nice you are to them, they will end up wanting to destroy your village and kill all your friends.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Cero Oscura
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I forget. Were there any redeeming qualities to the Uchiha? Because this chapter continues to reinforce that no matter how nice you are to them, they will end up wanting to destroy your village and kill all your friends.
Nope! The Uchiha don't really have any redeeming qualities other then the fact that they are really powerful. I continue to have a harder and harder time not accepting that, for all his bluster and jackassness, the second Hokage and Danzo where completely right in what they did.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Nope! The Uchiha don't really have any redeeming qualities other then the fact that they are really powerful. I continue to have a harder and harder time not accepting that, for all his bluster and jackassness, the second Hokage and Danzo where completely right in what they did.
It does seem that way.
I mean, at the very least, if the Uchiha are genetically insane and the people in charge knew they are genetically insane (as seems to be the implication from what you guys are saying, considering I'm still yonks behind you all in the anime and I don't read the manga), then one must ask why in the merry heck did they not have someone look into at least trying to fix or at least alleviate the problems medically (e.g Tsunade, her predessors etc etc; heck even Orochimaru before they realised he was crazy too)? You know, literally give them a chill pill or something or at the very, very least make sure there was a solid psychiatric support network in place (and not one run by the Uchiha).
If the answer is just "Uchiha pride" then no, chaps, that's not good enough, because the Hokage needed to have said "either you submit to this or you don't be ninja. No, I don't care, your sense of self-importance and pride is not more important than other people's lives. Do it or you're out."
(And if they did leave, the situation couldn't possibly have ended up much worse. Plus the nastier villages than Leaf might have ended up pushing them sooner to breaking point and bringing Uchiha ire down on them, not Konoha AND Konoha would still likely have had the Forth around to boot. If you have a weapon that's more likely to explode in your face, you give it to the enemy as fast as possible! (Also, cynically, the other villages might have done a more thorough job of wiping the clan out, not being raised with Konoha sensibilities...))
And if the reason why no attempt was made to control the symptoms was "they didn't want anybody to know about the problem in case it was used against them" then congratulations! Guess what, morons, it happened anyway!
And if Uchiha-Crazy really, really, really can't be fixed, controlled or migitated (and I call bovine on that as a narrative excuse)... Well, sorry chaps, but there are even a few mutants even Professor X had to admit he couldn't help and had to be sealed away so they weren't a threat to everyone around them. Life ain't always fair.
(I should note I get especially bitter about people like Sasuke whining about being hard-done to as an excuse for evil around this time of year, after Comic Relief and seeing people who really ARE hard-done to and who struggle on as best they can; and who are so grateful for the help they recieve it's painful. So yeah, sorry to make the uncomfortable comparisons, but it always does come back to that for me; it's always in the back of my mind how priviledged an unlife I have, to always have had a roof over my head, safe water, enough food and time for frivilous things like hobbies and interests. Sasuke can't even begin to know what real suffering is like; hell, he never even seemed to get his head around Naruto's pretty crappy situation at the start and fanfic aside, Naruto always seemed to have at least basic necessities...)
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cero Oscura
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I forget. Were there any redeeming qualities to the Uchiha? Because this chapter continues to reinforce that no matter how nice you are to them, they will end up wanting to destroy your village and kill all your friends.
This is pretty much the reason that as time goes by there are less and less Sasuke fans.
Orochimaru is evil, but damn, the man has style and who KNOWS what he's planning.
Sasuke's plan seems to boil down to, "I'm going to kill anybody that ever slighted me."
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Olinser
This is pretty much the reason that as time goes by there are less and less Sasuke fans.
Orochimaru is evil, but damn, the man has style and who KNOWS what he's planning.
Sasuke's plan seems to boil down to, "I'm going to kill anybody that every slighted me."
Which wouldn't be as much of a problem is Kishi didn't seem so utterly dead-set on trying to make us empathise/root for Sasuke, either through the (I found really dull) Sasuke-centric asides or through Naruto's - what really can only be called now - obsession.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
Sasuke's plan seems to boil down to, "I'm going to kill anybody that ever slighted me."
You forgot to add, "And anyone who has ever aided someone I'm going to kill, or not attempted to bring them to justice." Which is getting to be a very, very long list with this whole ninja alliance deal.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Aotrs, I'll explain (I'll also explain for those who don't read the manga).
It has been explained that the Uchiha brain, due to genetics, has a special connection with the eyes. Whenever they feel the pain of emotional loss, it generates a large amount of chakra and shoves it directly into the eyes, giving them the Sharingan. Every Uchiha has this, and due simply to how the world works every Uchiha will expierance a loss big enough to cause the Sharingan at one point. The problem is that this causes them to get rather strong, and this strength (plus the chakra just gushing into their eyeballs) is very addictive and changes the person so that they just keep on getting more emo.
So yes, it's completely impossible for any Uchiha to avoid this fate. This also has the side effect of making all Uchiha villians absolutely stupid since now, instead of Obito being an intelligent, grief stricken villain who wants to lash out at the world, he's only doing this because his brain's got a mental condition that makes him evil.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Aotrs, I'll explain (I'll also explain for those who don't read the manga).
It has been explained that the Uchiha brain, due to genetics, has a special connection with the eyes. Whenever they feel the pain of emotional loss, it generates a large amount of chakra and shoves it directly into the eyes, giving them the Sharingan. Every Uchiha has this, and due simply to how the world works every Uchiha will expierance a loss big enough to cause the Sharingan at one point. The problem is that this causes them to get rather strong, and this strength (plus the chakra just gushing into their eyeballs) is very addictive and changes the person so that they just keep on getting more emo.
So yes, it's completely impossible for any Uchiha to avoid this fate. This also has the side effect of making all Uchiha villians absolutely stupid since now, instead of Obito being an intelligent, grief stricken villain who wants to lash out at the world, he's only doing this because his brain's got a mental condition that makes him evil.
Right.
All of which begs the question why Tsunade "miracle worker" Senju or someone can't (or didn't) try to do something about that or at least treat the symptoms... It's a medical condition, clearly, which means it ought to be treatable somehow (though I suppose it's possible it's beyond the technology level to succeed in curing it, I call male bovine excrement on it being completely and utterly impossible to have some form of alleviating treatment.) And you would have thought they would have at least made an attempt, as y'know, a fairly high priority item to at least stave of the worst of the effects (even if through nothing but mandatory psyche exams and councilling, considering.
Given what's shown of the Uchiha, I don't doubt they lack the strength of character (as sheer-bloody-mindedness seems to be a bit of a trait with them, as once they get an idea into their heads ("revenge") frackin' nothing seems to dislodge it) to actually resist the Crazy/addiction with some chemical or psychiatric aid if they actually tried.
Also brings us back to the point if they all go crazy eventually, then regardless of how powerful they are, they're a liability (and anyone who thought they could be used as tools while they were at least partially sane has been proven to be utterly and completely wrong in the worst way possible.) They shouldn't be ninjas, they should be committed (at the very least, but I've said my views on what my entirely biased solution is before...) if they really are incurable and un-migitatable.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Right.
All of which begs the question why Tsunade "miracle worker" Senju or someone can't (or didn't) try to do something about that or at least treat the symptoms... It's a medical condition, clearly, which means it ought to be treatable somehow (though I suppose it's possible it's beyond the technology level to succeed in curing it, I call male bovine excrement on it being completely and utterly impossible to have some form of alleviating treatment.) And you would have thought they would have at least made an attempt, as y'know, a fairly high priority item to at least stave of the worst of the effects (even if through nothing but mandatory psyche exams and councilling, considering.
Given what's shown of the Uchiha, I don't doubt they lack the strength of character (as sheer-bloody-mindedness seems to be a bit of a trait with them, as once they get an idea into their heads ("revenge") frackin' nothing seems to dislodge it) to actually resist the Crazy/addiction with some chemical or psychiatric aid if they actually tried.
Also brings us back to the point if they all go crazy eventually, then regardless of how powerful they are, they're a liability (and anyone who thought they could be used as tools while they were at least partially sane has been proven to be utterly and completely wrong in the worst way possible.) They shouldn't be ninjas, they should be committed (at the very least, but I've said my views on what my entirely biased solution is before...) if they really are incurable and un-migitatable.
The simple answer is that they can't treat it because they don't know how it works. Just like the Byakugan, the Uchiha are ridiculously cagey about letting anybody get a hold of a Sharingan - you think the Uchiha would have just let a Senju come look at their eyes to figure out how they work?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
The simple answer is that they can't treat it because they don't know how it works. Just like the Byakugan, the Uchiha are ridiculously cagey about letting anybody get a hold of a Sharingan - you think the Uchiha would have just let a Senju come look at their eyes to figure out how they work?
Which brings us back to the fact that if
A: you guys are crazy,
B: you won't let us help you somehow, you can,
C: get the **** out of the village kthxbai.
How did I end up on Danzo's side. This either great writing or terrible writing.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
I'm still sympathetic to Madara. He's a man who experiences survivor's guilt and feels overshadowed by more popular Hashirama. Madara tries to think what's best for his clan, but he's unlike Hashirama, and actually more akin to Tobirama. The scene where Madara and Hashirama are standing atop the mountain was heart wrenching, and then Tobirama shatters the scene by simply arriving. Later on Madara guesses Tobirama's intentions correctly, and loses his following with Uchiha because of that. I'm not sure if I interpret Tobirama is villain here, or does he just work as proxy for the entire shinobi world. So, what would happened to Madara if he would have spent more time with Jovial Hashirama?
Makes me think why Madara ends up admiring and loathed Hashirama. The dull answer for admiring would be because he was stronger then him. But that leaves us nowhere to go. One thing obvious from the latest chapters is that Hashirama always believed in Madara. So my guess is Tsundere-Madara.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darksolitaire
I'm still sympathetic to Madara. He's a man who experiences survivor's guilt and feels overshadowed by more popular Hashirama. Madara tries to think what's best for his clan, but he's unlike Hashirama, and actually more akin to Tobirama. The scene where Madara and Hashirama are standing atop the mountain was heart wrenching, and then Tobirama shatters the scene by simply arriving. Later on Madara guesses Tobirama's intentions correctly, and loses his following with Uchiha because of that. I'm not sure if I interpret Tobirama is villain here, or does he just work as proxy for the entire shinobi world. So, what would happened to Madara if he would have spent more time with Jovial Hashirama?
Makes me think why Madara ends up admiring and loathed Hashirama. The dull answer for admiring would be because he was stronger then him. But that leaves us nowhere to go. One thing obvious from the latest chapters is that Hashirama always believed in Madara. So my guess is Tsundere-Madara.
There's a term for what Madara is doing, I can't remember it exactly, but basically, it is when somebody gets mad at another person for accusing them of evil/questionable acts - that they are either guilty of, or were planning to do.
Madara is planning to do everything Tobirama suspects him of - and yet apparently Tobirama is the one in the wrong.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
There's a term for what Madara is doing, I can't remember it exactly, but basically, it is when somebody gets mad at another person for accusing them of evil/questionable acts - that they are either guilty of, or were planning to do.
Madara is planning to do everything Tobirama suspects him of - and yet apparently Tobirama is the one in the wrong.
Perhaps he wasn't, and did it out of spite? Maybe he wouldn't have gone evilz if Tobimara would have trusted him.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sliver
Perhaps he wasn't, and did it out of spite? Maybe he wouldn't have gone evilz if Tobimara would have trusted him.
But we know he would because Uchiha genetics, apparently.
The more I think about it, the whole Uchiha genetics thing seems like a really poor excuse on Kishi's part to say "no, they aren't bad really, just mentally ill" like that's some kind of shield for being dangerously unstable psychopaths - especially coming out of the hat at this late stage of the game.
It feels to me like nothing more than an excuse to diminish responsibilty for the Uchiha's actions by blaming it on an outside source (medical condition), because that somehow makes them "less bad." (It doesn't.)
It comes down to this. They're either responsible for their own actions of psychopathic asshattery or they're medically insane - they can't be both. If it's the first case, they have proven they have to be taken down hard; in the second they have proven they have to be treated and they don't get an option in either case.
With great power and all that, and Being An Uchiha is not licence to do whatever they hell they like and damn the effect on everyone else, because it only ends in war and suffering. And they need to learn this, medical condition or no.
Furthermore this all begs the question is what can possibly happen to any of the Uchiha that survive this mess? Now they are definately known as crazy nutcases - so I would imagine all the nations aside from Fire (and mayve everyone except Naruto) will be calling for their heads, and I honestly don't see making Sasuke take medication being a solution to keep him under control (and the Uchiha have conclusively proved several times over they cannot be left to their own devices because they threaten the entirity ninja nations when they are.)
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
But we know he would because Uchiha genetics, apparently.
The more I think about it, the whole Uchiha genetics thing seems like a really poor excuse on Kishi's part to say "no, they aren't bad really, just mentally ill" like that's some kind of shield for being dangerously unstable psychopaths - especially coming out of the hat at this late stage of the game.
It feels to me like nothing more than an excuse to diminish responsibilty for the Uchiha's actions by blaming it on an outside source (medical condition), because that somehow makes them "less bad." (It doesn't.)
It comes down to this. They're either responsible for their own actions of psychopathic asshattery or they're medically insane - they can't be both. If it's the first case, they have proven they have to be taken down hard; in the second they have proven they have to be treated and they don't get an option in either case.
With great power and all that, and Being An Uchiha is not licence to do whatever they hell they like and damn the effect on everyone else, because it only ends in war and suffering. And they need to learn this, medical condition or no.
Furthermore this all begs the question is what can possibly happen to any of the Uchiha that survive this mess? Now they are definately known as crazy nutcases - so I would imagine all the nations aside from Fire (and mayve everyone except Naruto) will be calling for their heads, and I honestly don't see making Sasuke take medication being a solution to keep him under control (and the Uchiha have conclusively proved several times over they cannot be left to their own devices because they threaten the entirity ninja nations when they are.)
My understanding is that it is closer to a drug addiction (with the chakra being the drug).
A drug addict will do all sorts of crazy things to feed their habit - but at the end, they are still responsible for their actions.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
My understanding is that it is closer to a drug addiction (with the chakra being the drug).
A drug addict will do all sorts of crazy things to feed their habit - but at the end, they are still responsible for their actions.
Which means it's a treatable condition: slap some chakra nullifiers on 'em (which we know exist (see Naruto first movie) and if not counting that, that's what Gentle Fist is for) and send 'em to collective chakra rehab or something. Addiction is totally a treatable condition.
Heck, if the only way to stop them going crazy due to chakra addiction is to burnout their chakra coils, then do it (s'more humane that what I would do).
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Which means it's a treatable condition: slap some chakra nullifiers on 'em (which we know exist (see Naruto first movie) and if not counting that, that's what Gentle Fist is for) and send 'em to collective chakra rehab or something. Addiction is totally a treatable condition.
Heck, if the only way to stop them going crazy due to chakra addiction is to burnout their chakra coils, then do it (s'more humane that what I would do).
Which then leads us back to the point where "The Uchiha won't allow that, since they'll see it as discrimination against them, or an attempt to find out their secrets"
Thus leading to the genocide that, you know, happened. Although I hate that this happened, since it did, to me atleast, ruin the Uchiha collectively as a villain since it IS meant to be something we're supposed to sympathize with, I like it because in universe it explains a lot.
Why did they genocide the strongest clan in the city? Because each and every one, due to only the fault of being born Uchiha, is a ticking time bomb waiting to be set off.
It also serves to explain why Kakashi can seemingly switch between using Mangakyo and not, while it seems that Uchiha cannot. He has to supply the chakra to power the eye, while the Uchiha just get a stream of emochakra directly into the eyeballs. It also explains why Obito was able to see how Kakashi's sharingan eye. Magical emo chakra!
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Why did they genocide the strongest clan in the city? Because each and every one, due to only the fault of being born Uchiha, is a ticking time bomb waiting to be set off.
Which, in the absense of anyone trying to do something about it (because I don't believe that no-one in the Uchiha or of the more observant ninja outside it was not smart enough to have twigged something) was unfortunately the only practical option. Indeed, probably correctly timed, as the people in charge realised that they were all about to go Uchiha-Crazy at once.
Makes you wonder what would have happened if they hadn't and what the face of the world would look like ten or so years on from the other Uchiha Massecre... I.e. the one the Uchiha instigated, where the crazy-clan slaughtered the entire of the population of Konoha or dealt so much damage to it during the process of being wiped out in their bloody insurrection that the village effectively is rendered a non-entity...)
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Which means it's a treatable condition: slap some chakra nullifiers on 'em (which we know exist (see Naruto first movie) and if not counting that, that's what Gentle Fist is for) and send 'em to collective chakra rehab or something. Addiction is totally a treatable condition.
Heck, if the only way to stop them going crazy due to chakra addiction is to burnout their chakra coils, then do it (s'more humane that what I would do).
Addiction is only treatable if the addict first ADMITS they have a problem, and then they WANT to be treated. Unless you plan on turning them into a literal prisoner, if the addict doesn't WANT to be cured, then the second he gets out of rehab he goes right back to tweaking again.
As far as I can tell not a single Uchiha has acknowledged (and possibly hasn't really REALIZED) that they have a problem.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Seriously? Are we back on the pro-genocide discussion again?
Jesus Christ, this thread.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
...so, in another direction!
Kishi's ToC comment for issue #18:
"Jibun ga yurusenai hanashi... toire de kami ga nakunatta koto wo itsumo owattekara kizuku!!"
So here's some inexcusable talk from Kishi... He always finds out that he's out of toilet paper when he's finished his... business.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Man, I loved the lines in this chapter.
"It's enough, I've seen your guts." Right before Hashirama's attempted suicide.
"THERE'S NO TIME TO COMPLAIN."
Don't like the seemingly sudden switch in Madara's behaviour though, with how he just flipped from caring about the clan to being like WHATEVS LETS FIGHTING TIEM.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VanBuren
Seriously? Are we back on the pro-genocide discussion again?
Jesus Christ, this thread.
What would you suggest is the solution, then?
I've been suggesting that the condition should be treatable (and that the people in charge should damn well have been paying enough attention to realise there was a condition)1, but the general consensus seems that's not or never was a practical option, so what the heck do you do?
We're seeing EXACTLY what the consequences of letting run around unimpeded with their Uchiha genetic insanity (because this mess started before the massecre and indeed caused it), so "live and let live" is clearly not an option. Ditto for diplomacy, because, aside from trying to run the village like that one oft-aped film/book where everybody in town has to think happy thoughts or the psychic kid makes them vanish or in this case, the Uchiha go emotionally insane - the Uchiha pride won't let them accept anything but being in charge. And even you did put them in charge, it's apparently now inevitable they'd have gonebonkers anyway.
Before the reveal, when it was sort of assumed by many if not most of us that the Uchiha weren't necessarily all bad and Obito an example of one of the good ones that the clan could have been; and then Kishi torpedoed all that by essentially giving them a medical condition that makes them eventually akin to Always Chaotic Evil.
So what are the options?
Basically, cure, contain or kill at the end of the day. Either no-one attempted or Uchiha pride prevented the first, trying the second is likely to end up with the third due to Uchiha pride...
So what can you do?
Exile? Short of getting Princess Celestia to banish them to the moon or something, I can't see the Uchiha going off on one if you tried that.
Okay, maybe repeated pummeling with the Elements of Harmony (don't ask me how you'd bring them to Konoha) might keep the emo off, but again, the Uchiha pride is unlikely to let them want to be blasted with rainbows from brightly coloured magic ponies... Be bloody funny to make the attempt, though...
By the point in the situation where the massecre occurred, it was probably already well passed the time the first option could have helped, the Uchiha sort of were contained/exiled to their compound and the most powerful clan in the village were about to launch a bloody coup. What could the village have done at that point? The previous assumptions that Danzou was wrong and they should have waited until the uprising and knobbled only those involved (at no doubt bloody cost) appears now would have resulted in then have to deal with another uprising down the line as anyone not directly involved in the first one, driven mad by grief, attempted to take their revenge.
(Assuming there was anyone not involved; we only have reasonable conjecture, unless things have changed recently, that Sasuke wasn't the only child of the Uchiha at the time; and time didn't slow Sarutobi down that much so the older clans members could still have been combatants.)
It now even appears the event of anyone not killed in the coup going up and crazy is apparently not conjecture at this stage, it's apparently inevitable.
So, again, VanBuren, what else could they do by that point?
The village badly mis-handled the entire thing from the start, if you ask me; they should have capped than "clan pride" thing right in the arse during the founding of the village, it would have likely solved a lot of problems down the line and not just for the Uchiha. Even if it meant the Uchiha refused to join a village, once everybody else did, they'd have had to swallow their pride or end up like the Kagura clan (Kimimaro's mob, if I'm remembering the name right).
And once you abolish the clannish nonsense - as the village espouses teamwork anyway - you spread everybody out and build loyalty to the village as a whole. As a by-product of that, it was more likely they'd catch Crazy Uchiha Syndrome on an individual level and everyone, including the sufferers, would have been more likely to be reasonable about trying to treat or cure it. (Also it would have the benefit of hopefully kicking the Hyuuga cursed seal nonsense in the shins at the same time.)
But they didn't; and so with a clan full of stupidly powerful super ninja ticking emotional time-bombs, large amounts of bloodshed were inevitable.
And this is why I think the genetic insane Uchiha thing is so utterly stupid. Before, I could happily believe that it was just Madara, scheming politicians on both sides and Itachi and Sasuke (both insane due to the emotional trauma they'd been through as children) and that the bulk of the Uchiha clan were maybe fairly okay dudes no worse than, say the Hyuuga, with maybe a few stand-up guys like Obito. But no, apparently the whole clan was Always Chaotic Evil, at which point any sympathy I had for them evaporated. If Kishi was trying to make the clan look sympathetic, he only succeed in villainising them (and not even in a good way).
1For frag's sake "Clan Secrets" should bloody well not include "never have a medical examination" and if it did they never should have been let join the village in the first place, because its so paranoid as to be untrustworthy. Which, funnily enough, when the idiots did just let them in, lead to exactly what has happened.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Morph Bark
Man, I loved the lines in this chapter.
"It's enough, I've seen your guts." Right before Hashirama's attempted suicide.
"THERE'S NO TIME TO COMPLAIN."
Don't like the seemingly sudden switch in Madara's behaviour though, with how he just flipped from caring about the clan to being like WHATEVS LETS FIGHTING TIEM.
I was gonna say, before I got distracted, that line really was hilarious. I can see how riffers could react to that now...
"No you haven't, the kunai's not even remotely inside of me yet!" and stuff like that.
I don't like it either, but it's another example of the Uchiha curse of loving too much.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
So, again, VanBuren, what else could they do by that point?
I'm not taking the bait. I'm not interested in debating the finer points of genocide.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
As far as I can tell not a single Uchiha has acknowledged (and possibly hasn't really REALIZED) that they have a problem.
They realized it at some level. After all, they created a jutsu to specifically punish the crazier of their own numbers. The fact that they had to go as far as to create said jutsu is a different matter.
Also, Itachi seemed fairly normal, and he was subjected to the most emo of emo-choices. If anything would drive you evil, that would be it. And yet, he seemed to forgive the village and maintain a fairly healthy outlook on life. This is all after he was rewritten during Shippuden, of course.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VanBuren
I'm not taking the bait. I'm not interested in debating the finer points of genocide.
Then suggest another solution. That wasn't a rhetorical question, I actually want to know how you would have handled the Uchiha.
I've already said what I'd have done (had I been there at the start) - what would you have done?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cero Oscura
They realized it at some level. After all, they created a jutsu to specifically punish the crazier of their own numbers. The fact that they had to go as far as to create said jutsu is a different matter.
Also, Itachi seemed fairly normal, and he was subjected to the most emo of emo-choices. If anything would drive you evil, that would be it. And yet, he seemed to forgive the village and maintain a fairly healthy outlook on life. This is all after he was rewritten during Shippuden, of course.
Well, see, there's an explanation for that too.
Itachi is a horrible person. He literally only cared about that one friend of his who drowned, and Sasuke. He didn't care about anyone else. So when he killed them, though he may of been sad since they're kin, he only really got SAD when faced with having to execute Sasuke. Thus why he choose to keep him alive.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Well, see, there's an explanation for that too.
Itachi is a horrible person. He literally only cared about that one friend of his who drowned, and Sasuke. He didn't care about anyone else. So when he killed them, though he may of been sad since they're kin, he only really got SAD when faced with having to execute Sasuke. Thus why he choose to keep him alive.
That's not true: Itachi was crying when he killed his mother and father, and they seemed to accept it pretty graciously.
And it's not like we know Itachi didn't care about his clain. Unless I'm remembering wrong, he was given the option of not being involved and everyone dies, or kill them yourself and you get to spare your little brother. Come to think of it--assuming I'm not missing some major counter-evidence--Itachi's biggest derangement was thinking he could fix everything by himself. Other than that he's been pretty level-headed.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Then suggest another solution. That wasn't a rhetorical question, I actually want to know how you would have handled the Uchiha.
I've already said what I'd have done (had I been there at the start) - what would you have done?
How about encouraging heterogeneous relationships among all of the clans? If the problem with the Uchiha was a physiological trait/defect, then the last thing you want is for them to establish a highly exclusionary clan.
If genetics don't work? Massive eye surgeries. Given how relatively simple it is to exchange eyes with others, this could have been feasible.
Don't like forced operations on people? Seals would've worked just as easily.
There's something wrong with one's ethical compass when the genocide of people is the only possible course of action.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Unborne
How about encouraging heterogeneous relationships among all of the clans? If the problem with the Uchiha was a physiological trait/defect, then the last thing you want is for them to establish a highly exclusionary clan.
If genetics don't work? Massive eye surgeries. Given how relatively simple it is to exchange eyes with others, this could have been feasible.
Don't like forced operations on people? Seals would've worked just as easily.
There's something wrong with one's ethical compass when the genocide of people is the only possible course of action.
Which is sort of along the lines of what I said the village should have done. (In fact, I think the canon is now sort of showing us the worst case scenario.) Of course, to implement any of these solutions, you'd kinda have the Uchiha clan being willing (which they might have pulled off had they laid out the ground rules from the start).
By the massecre point, I think trying something like that wouldn't have helped, as the Uchiha would likely have viewed it a threat to their power (and if I'm intrepreting what Madara told Sasuke in light of the new genetic "love too much" or whatever problem information, it might be the enforced isolation from the village after the Nine-Tail attack had already pushed them over the edge).
Now, letting your most prestigeous clan become isolated and taking blame for an attack was COSMICALLY stupid. Probably the single largest failing of the entire affair; but then Konoha has shown that The Stupids is something that the general populace is quite good at, for some reason. Fact remains, the Third should have quashed that rumour dead flat immediately (and maybe put a rule in place as harsh as the one on Naruto's passenger). Not doing so was an unforgivably stroke of idiocy on pretty much every level; socially, in terms of military power and security (how in the heck can you make your police force viewed as untrustworthy and expect nothing bad to come of it).
But by the time it comes you've got a coup on your hands, there's going to be bloodshed involved somehow.
Eliminating the clan the way they did was a really assinine way to do it, make no mistake. While I personally have very little sympathy (and what little I have, I save for people in the real world who actually deserve it) on a practical level, the village just made a huge mess. As events proved, Itachi botched the job whichever way you slice it; he failed to eliminate the Uchicha completely from one angle. And from the village-loyal angle, he not only failed to report that fraggin' Madara Uchiha was alive and vengeful, but let a known enemy into the village to help and compounded it by messing Sasuke up so completely badly that he literally nearly single-handedly turned him against the village.
(Which is why you don't send a mid-teens kid, not matter how seasoned you think he is, to go and massecre people. If you've fracked things up THAT badly that you have an insurrection on your hands and you're going to make a morally dubious (to say the least), if ruthlessly pragmatic, pre-emptive strike, you do NOT trust it to one guy unsupervised, especially if he's related to the targets. (Which is probably why it was Danzou's idea because he was not only whom you suspect kind of got off on that sort of thing (i.e turning people into tools because it suited his mad power fantasies) but doing it to steal all the Uchiha eyeballs.)
Like I say, the fact they did make all those mistakes brings us to pretty much the worse-case scenario - all out war and hundreds if not thousands of deaths (and this from basically only three Uchiha) and near destruction of the village.
And if it wasn't for that fact that, against all odds and even the village's mind-baffling stupidity, their jinchuriki is actually a staggerly good-hearted guy who manages to inspire everyone around him to be better (even his enemies), they'd already be freaking dead. Assuming they even would have survived long enough to make it past the Chuunin Exams invasion.
Sometimes, I have a hard job working out who is stupider; the average joe in the ninja villages, the Marvel U or Wizarding Britain...
Edit: I just watched the last four episodes of the latest boxed set, which included the episode where Sasuke tells Madara all about how much he hates the village.
Wow.
I mean.
Wow.
I knew all this. I knew what his attitude was, it was stated in the earlier episodes, in more fanfic than I care to remember; but nothing prepared me for the actual event.
I just sat there utterly flabbergasted as Sasuke urinated all up all over Itachi's sacrifice (which was sort of a thing, even if I personally think he was an idiot, it still took gumption to do what he did) and went on to such gems as "everyone who lives in the village who benefitted from the peace Itachi bought with his sacrifice needs to die" and "if anyone tries to stop me, I'll kill all their loved ones" and basically twisting the whole affair around to be about him, that he was more important than the village...
I am a little humbled, actually. I thought I was a raving megalomanic, but even my quite astonishing level of self-centric arrogance (that I have worked years to perfect, many years of hard graft - you don't think this sort of non-delusional grandure comes naturally do you?) pales into insignificance to Sasuke's.
Hell, even Madara sounded a little incredulous that Sasuke would cheerfully say everything Itachi believed in was childish (except him of course) and he was going to burn it all to the ground in Itachi's name.
I just...
I...
Words fail me.
My Lichemaster.