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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Shale
If cast on a modern-day human, it would wipe out all homo sapiens everywhere (since the whole race shares a common ancestor, some 5,000-10,000 years back, and the first step of the spell doesn't require a common living ancestor). I don't consider myself to be part of a family that contains literally every other person alive.
which is why Haerta wouldnt have made the exact same spell if she existed in this world
Haerta lives in a world where the idea of everyone sharing a common ancester is ridiculous and the idea of her spell spilling over to where its not expected (especially ages ago when she lived) was unlikely (or possibly even impossible)
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Ah, alright.
How exactly do you know that? I'm not the most knowledgeable person about the setting's influences, so I'm still curious. (Or maybe I just missed a glaringly obvious reveal in the comic somewhere. That could be it!)
i believe the giant posted it somehwere
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
And? In our world she wouldn't have written the spell at all because magic isn't real. Familicide as written is the spell I'm talking about.
Plus even in the OOTSverse it would still wipe out most or all of a region, certainly all of a town, in which the population is able to mingle freely, based on a single shared ancestor thirty human generations back. Not my idea of "family."
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Shale
And? In our world she wouldn't have written the spell at all because magic isn't real. Familicide as written is the spell I'm talking about.
Plus even in the OOTSverse it would still wipe out most or all of a region, certainly all of a town, in which the population is able to mingle freely, based on a single shared ancestor thirty human generations back. Not my idea of "family."
hmmmm
maybe, JUST maybe, the OoTS verse has a much different idea of what a family really is?
like if you take a town, and everyone in the town knows there all related, isnt that whole town one big family?
or maybe your definition of family is simply wrong?
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
Would I be welcome at your family reunion?
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Niknokitueu
Um, you do know that the world of OotS is based on D&D, right?
Things like saying " 'all' black dragons are Evil Sadists" is a valid interpretation of D&D black dragons. Things like saying "all black dragons are innocent until observed/proven guilty" is not a valid interpretation of D&D black dragons.
Right here means that any discussion with you down this road will amount to nothing.
It's based is a key word. It is specifically NOT D&D, it just has D&D's mechanics.
Rich has specifically stated that this world does not follow D&D's rules of "X species is always evil."
"all black dragons are evil sadists" is a valid interpretation of D&D black dragons sure.
But we're not talking about D&D black dragons, we are talking about Order of the Stick black dragons. This is a universe where everything that isn't an outsider can be of any alignment and Rich has specifically said so.
To ignore that is to ignore the very point Rich has been trying to make.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Sir_Leorik
Even in D&D there are cases where "Evil" creatures do not adhere to the standard Alignments of their race. The Chromatic Dragons of Taladas, in "Dragonlance" are closer to Neutral than to Evil, and they deliberately refused to answer Takhisis' call to join her Dragon Armies. Dzi'izt Do'Urden may be considered a cliche today, but back in 1988 R.A. Salvatore was breaking new ground by making Wulfgar's Ranger sidekick a Dark Elf. Way back in the 1970's, Rob Kuntz's PC, Lord Robilar, had an Orc henchman named Slig, who was non-Evil. There's even a Beholder at the Rock of Bral who works as a wisecracking bartender, and in Sigil, the City of Doors, A'kin the "Friendly Fiend", an allegedly non-Evil Arcanoloth, runs a knick-knack shop where he serves as an information broker. Most of them are exceptions, but once Players are aware of the exceptions they will need to question whether they should be attacking Orcs or Goblins, just because they are Orcs or Goblins.
If anything this supports the idea of Neutral until proven non-neutral. If even the system that publishes things as "always evil" has exceptions. You can expect even more exceptions in the story that has themes meant to challenge those settings assumptions.
The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, you need to prove all or most black dragons are evil mass murderers in order to make the claim that they are.
We currently have 0 proof, in comic or from Rich himself, that says so. D&D is not proof because we have evidence showing specifically that the rules of D&D does not always adhere in OotS. OotS is based on D&D, it is not D&D, this is a key distinction that makes a world of difference from alignment to mechanics.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
zimmerwald1915
You're bringing out the whitewash again. What, besides your desire to see it, suggests that V going back to "save" O-Chul indicates that the act was animated by a good impulse?
I saw it perfectly clearly despite the fact that I wouldn't have gone back at all if I was playing a wizard in his shoes, Just like I can't help but notice V is on a redemption arc now despite the fact that I don't particularly enjoy the sort of whiny hand-wringing that usually entails.
This isn't "whitewashing", it's accepting the fact that I'm not the one writing this story. Maybe you should try it some time.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
I'm quite excited to find out what happens next in all of this. I also may or may not have been preparing a song for the return of V. > . >
It may or may not be a parody of a song by Queen. :smallsmile:
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Oko and Qailee
Right here means that any discussion with you down this road will amount to nothing.
It's based is a key word. It is specifically NOT D&D, it just has D&D's mechanics.
Rich has specifically stated that this world does not follow D&D's rules of "X species is always evil."
"all black dragons are evil sadists" is a valid interpretation of D&D black dragons sure.
But we're not talking about D&D black dragons, we are talking about Order of the Stick black dragons. This is a universe where everything that isn't an outsider can be of any alignment and Rich has specifically said so.
To ignore that is to ignore the very point Rich has been trying to make.
I though Rich's point was that 'not all members of Evil race X are Evil', not that 'members of Evil race X are not Evil'. A big difference.
If, say, 95% of Evil race X are Evil, then saying 'race X is Evil' is correct. Which is how Paladins in OotS behave.
The actual % that are evil is not that important (though obviously if less than 50% are Evil, then saying 'race X is Evil' is incorrect, and Paladins will need to start atoning for attempting Genocide on those races).
There is indeed no proof that any individual black dragon is Evil. All the ones shown so far to have a good/evil preference have seemed south of the dividing line, but I accept that the Evil race of Black Dragons can theoretically have any number of neutral or good dragons. Black dragons are still evil, though...
A valid question would be: Would V, who after all lives inside the OotSiverse, have cast that spell on humans or elves, given their more balanced alignment spread?
I personally think he was so far gone that he would indeed have cast it regardless of the effect. Power corrupts, after all.
Lastly, I do not believe that the targets in this case ameliorate the evilness of V's actions. He regards the act as being horrific, and he is the one that will need to try to atone for it.
Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Niknokitueu
I though Rich's point was that 'not all members of Evil race X are Evil', not that 'members of Evil race X are not Evil'. A big difference.
If, say, 95% of Evil race X are Evil, then saying 'race X is Evil' is correct. Which is how Paladins in OotS behave.
The actual % that are evil is not that important (though obviously if less than 50% are Evil, then saying 'race X is Evil' is incorrect, and Paladins will need to start atoning for attempting Genocide on those races).
There is indeed no proof that any individual black dragon is Evil. All the ones shown so far to have a good/evil preference have seemed south of the dividing line, but I accept that the Evil race of Black Dragons can theoretically have any number of neutral or good dragons. Black dragons are still evil, though...
A valid question would be: Would V, who after all lives inside the OotSiverse, have cast that spell on humans or elves, given their more balanced alignment spread?
I personally think he was so far gone that he would indeed have cast it regardless of the effect. Power corrupts, after all.
Lastly, I do not believe that the targets in this case ameliorate the evilness of V's actions. He regards the act as being horrific, and he is the one that will need to try to atone for it.
Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
hes not the one who decides if hes attoned though
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Yoink
Ah, alright.
How exactly do you know that? I'm not the most knowledgeable person about the setting's influences, so I'm still curious. (Or maybe I just missed a glaringly obvious reveal in the comic somewhere. That could be it!)
You mean besides their first initials being hints? :smallwink:
In the author commentary to Don't Split the Party the Giant spells out who is who in the IFCC Directorate.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Kish
How about, "Vaarsuvius Is Still Married* And In Love, Sabine Is Still Evil, And Not Every Vaguely Positive Interaction Has To Mean Romance"?
(I know, it doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.)
*Unless elves have really fast divorce courts. Which, considering they relate to everything else far more slowly than humans, I'm betting against.
If V had contested Inkyrius' motion, she might still be technically married. But she didn't. She assented to what Inkyrius wanted done. At that point, the marriage was ended and Inkyrius got full custody of the children, because V's assent to her terms meant the case never went to court at all.
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Originally Posted by
Sir_Leorik
When Darth V cast Familicide, she committed a horrible atrocity. The question now is whether Vaarsuvius will get to have a "Toss the Emperor into the reactor core of the Death Star" moment, like Darth Vader did. At that moment, when Vader saved Luke from Palpatine's Force Lightning, at the cost of his own life, he earned redemption. How do we know this? Because his Force Spirit shows up at the end of Return of the Jedi wearing Jedi Robes, without any of the scars he obtained on Mustafar, or any missing limbs. No one is going to argue that Darth Vader was a villain, but he repented his evil deeds, and found a way to atone for a lifetime of evil and earn redemption with a single action, at the cost of his life. His repentance was fully accepted, and he had a body count much higher than Darth V's.
Well, that's Star Wars, not The Order of the Stick, and Soon's comment to Miko about redemption seems to me to exclude the possibility of "aton[ing] for a lifetime of evil and earn[ing] redemption with a single action." What's more, there is a substantial body of people who consider that even within Star Wars Darth Vader's redemption came much too cheaply, and that his actions were only sufficient because he was the Chosen One and the universe just works differently for him.
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Originally Posted by
Gusion
Except nearly all healing spells are divine, not arcane. Not to say it is impossible, but in a world without "wish" I don't see how it would happen.
Wish exists in The Order of the Stick. So does Epic spellcasting. The question (putting aside that wish's XP cost makes using it for this purpose...prohibitive) is not whether they exist but whether V will ever get to use either within the scope of the story. Do you really consider it plausible that the Giant will ever give V access to Epic spellcasting out of her own spell slots?
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I'm halfway convinced that he's just trolling at this point. Even if there was a strip where V did something so amazing Tiamat herself forgave V on behalf of all the dragons, Ao himself broke out of apathy to congratulation V on redemption, and V sacrificed his life to save the world... Zimmer would still say he is incapable of redemption.
Now that's just not fair. Again I'll bring up strip 866; before that strip I was convinced that V would never truly recognize the magnitude of her sin, because I was convinced, especially after strip 843, that she would never see the dragons she killed as victims. I was wrong. I can be convinced when the evidence is good enough. The stuff V apologists keep raising? Isn't.
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Originally Posted by
Liliet
...context of that act, or maybe of the whole arc? You know, the arc where V got survivor's guilt for not saving Azure city virself / not staying to die at the wall (I hope you are not saying that ve truly is to blame for that?), had nightmares and sleep deprivation... hell,
this strip is one of the most emotional in the whole comic!
Yes, context of the act. Believe it or not, I used to rather like V. After 639, however, there was no act that had come before in the comic that was not colored by familicide, never mind after (the fact that I basically read the entire online archive straight through may have had something to do with that). Disintegrating the young black dragon, blowing up the orc parking lot attendant, the escalating cycle of violence with Belkar...they all bespoke a very petty, very spiteful person much more clearly after familicide than they had before. Familicide was not an aberration; it illuminated the entire animus of the character. I could no longer find it within myself to like such a character.
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Also,
this. FOR AZURE CITY! Yeah, of course. O-Chul gets the praise here, holy cojones and all... he is a paladin whose city has fallen and who has a lot to avenge, both for fallen and personal.
Sounds like a person that someone with a head injury and an injured psyche might find it very easy to follow, no matter what the circumstances. Charisma might be O-Chul's "dump stat", but in that moment his force of personality was simply able to enthrall V and carry her along to whatever end.
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Oh, and please stop calling prescribing V any good qualities "whitewashing", even if it's something obvious like personal bravery. That makes you look bad.
Thanks for the consideration, but unless I hire you as my agent, my image is really none of your business. Also, it tickles me to see Kish say he's now the second-most V-condemnatory poster on the board.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
sengmeng
Duh. Miko's narrative purpose was to both show and tell us who it's okay to kill. Do you have any idea how grave of a sin it is to be a dragon whose scales aren't shiny? Everyone knows they're evil. They deserve to be exterminated, not because each one is a mass murderer; that's just a thing they do. They should be killed for what they ARE.
And please, Playgrounders, stop referring to the killing of goblins as genocide. Genocide is something that happens to PEOPLE.
The author of the comic explicitly disagrees with both of these stances. And given the subject matter, this is all I have to say about that.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
If V had killed all of the people zie killed in Famlicide; but had done it over a long time (let's call this Action B, or slow famlicide); tracking them down, I think that would be worse to me than what zie did.
there's a difference between the act of a moment and the act of years.
If V had done it over a long time; I'd say it would be worse because V would have more time to think it over. Famlicide was one choice, on one day, in one moment; but Action B requires V to wake up day after day and decide to do slow famlicide. Every hour is a decision to keep going on that path.
Famlicide is one horrific choice. Action B would be thousands of awful choices, one after another.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
NihhusHuotAliro
If V had killed all of the people zie killed in Famlicide; but had done it over a long time (let's call this Action B, or slow famlicide); tracking them down, I think that would be worse to me than what zie did.
there's a difference between the act of a moment and the act of years.
If V had done it over a long time; I'd say it would be worse because V would have more time to think it over. Famlicide was one choice, on one day, in one moment; but Action B requires V to wake up day after day and decide to do slow famlicide. Every hour is a decision to keep going on that path.
Famlicide is one horrific choice. Action B would be thousands of awful choices, one after another.
also action B has no innocence while action A V didnt realise how terrible it truly was
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Porthos
The author of the comic explicitly disagrees with both of these stances. And given the subject matter, this is all I have to say about that.
I do believe sengmeng was being sarcastic.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Shale
Plus even in the OOTSverse it would still wipe out most or all of a region, certainly all of a town, in which the population is able to mingle freely, based on a single shared ancestor thirty human generations back. Not my idea of "family."
Actually, only a few generations at most. The Giant even said here that it would be possible for relatives outside first/second cousin to survive.
Please stop responding to zimmer. He/she has already stated that nothing except an explicit declaration in-comic will be enough. Lets drop it and try to move on to a line of discussion that might turn out productive.
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
Only cousins and second cousins die in step two. Step one just nukes the primary target's entire bloodline - "Number of generations or percentage of blood or direction doesn't matter." Like he says in that post, "Wouldn't that spell kill everyone of the original target's species? In our world? Maybe."
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Morty
I do believe sengmeng was being sarcastic.
Ah. I had just woken up so my saracasm detector must have not booted up quiite yet. :smallredface: :smalltongue:
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
illyahr
Please stop responding to zimmer. He/she has already stated that nothing except an explicit declaration in-comic will be enough. Lets drop it and try to move on to a line of discussion that might turn out productive.
Sorry, I'm not sure I parsed your sentences correctly. Do you mean that we should change the subject and stop responding to zimmer (so, we wouldn't talk to zimmer on whatever the new topic is)? Or do you mean that we should change the subject and still respond to zimmer on the new topic?
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
TheWombatOfDoom
I'm quite excited to find out what happens next in all of this. I also may or may not have been preparing a song for the return of V. > . >
It may or may not be a parody of a song by Queen. :smallsmile:
Is it Fat Bottomed Girls?
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Joe the Rat
Is it Fat Bottomed Girls?
Nope. More epic. :smallwink:
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
TheWombatOfDoom
Nope. More epic. :smallwink:
BICYCLE RACE?!
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Tsyndrome
BICYCLE RACE?!
Nope! I'm just hoping the next comic gives me enough material to finish the little bit I have to get for the last part. :smallamused:
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
NihhusHuotAliro
Sorry, I'm not sure I parsed your sentences correctly. Do you mean that we should change the subject and stop responding to zimmer (so, we wouldn't talk to zimmer on whatever the new topic is)? Or do you mean that we should change the subject and still respond to zimmer on the new topic?
Sorry, I meant the second one. :smallsmile:
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
TheWombatOfDoom
Nope. More epic. :smallwink:
Good Ol' Fashioned Lover Boy?
Maybe Under Pressure?
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
Oh.
I thought you meant the second one, but I wasn't sure.
So, what did Sabine's dustpan do to end up in an evil afterlife?
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
Ghost Nappa
Good Ol' Fashioned Lover Boy?
Maybe Under Pressure?
Oh my, so many good queen songs.
"Good old fashioned lover boy" I think wouldn't describe V very well, since we don't know V's gender,
"Under Pressure" would have been sweet! But a little non-dramatic for what's going on right now. On another note, reviewing the song...it might be more than one update before I post it...I don't want more to happen before the end of the book, if it's even close.
People keep mentioning it is coming, but we've been going strong for about 50 pages since those claims started up, haha. (if not more)
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Re: OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread
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Originally Posted by
jere7my
I'm not going to defend Vaarsuvius's Familicide, but let's not kid ourselves: maybe nine out of ten of those black dragons were multiple mass murderers. We shouldn't excuse Vaarsuvius's actions on the basis of "black dragons are evil, so it's okay," but we also shouldn't imagine that most of her victims were innocent fluffy bunny-dragons who never hurt anyone. Based on D&D as written—and we haven't been given any evidence, in the strip or in Rich's comments, to assume otherwise—we should imagine that the bulk of the black dragons she killed had tortured, murdered, and eaten other sentient beings.
Vaarsuvius's Familicide was horrific because she used it to kill indiscriminately, without taking into account whether any individual dragon had committed any crimes. But if she had taken the time to go through the dragons one by one, it's almost certain that the vast majority would indeed deserve to be slain*, unless black dragons in OotS are very different from black dragons in ordinary D&D, which are, by default, petty, cruel psychopaths. Sure, it's possible that 99% of the OotS black dragons live on a faraway continent without sentient life and eat only dumb kangaroos, but absent evidence to the contrary we the audience should assume that any given black dragon is probably guilty of murder.
* In the moral sphere laid out in the strip, not any specific real-world morality.
Of the guaranteed known victims of Familicide (shown on screen directly, not including what could be V’s imagination while in the pit), we have:
67 dragons (of which 4 are eggs)
22 Draketooths
This illustrates the problem with a spell like this. You have no realistic way of knowing who it catches and therefore the consequences are likely to be larger than you realized.
So even if we assume all the dragons (including the eggs) were evil, that means 24.7% of the victims weren’t dragons but Draketooths, and weren’t even “supposed” to be targeted. Unknown what their alignments are, but presumably not evil. If you throw in the eggs (not hatched and therefore haven’t done anything yet), it goes up to 29.2%.
(if what they show while V is in the pit are actual victims, then this percentage goes up even further).
Actually, it’s quite possible that more non-dragons were killed than dragons depending on how small the dragon population is.
So if you are weighing the benefits of undoing the spell, remember to take all the victims into consideration, not just the dragons.
I'd work under the assumption that any undoing would probably be an "all or nothing".