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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Kish
Where does a godless cleric fit into this feeling?
Presumably they write their own code of conduct based on the values they would prescribe to whatever force they worship.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Keltest
Presumably they write their own code of conduct based on the values they would prescribe to whatever force they worship.
I can imagine the convention where they decide that.
"So, uhm, stone.
Stone is grey. But there also are green stones, and red stones. But it's all stone. So we cannot be racist. Agreed? Agreed.
Also, stone is hard and inflexible. So we should be inflexible, too. OK?
And some birds eat stones to digest their food. I am not sure of how that reflects on us. Maybe we should... yes? Ah, request the ability to turn air creatures. Cool. This isn't Pokemon though, I am not sure birds qualify as... Yes, cool idea anyway, we're going for it.
Guys, guys, this just in, we cannot just go for stones, we have to go for the Elemental plane of Earth. I think it's pretty much the same, we can keep the old symbols. Yes, no, no need to carry a clod of dirt, the little flints are A-OK. You can put that back outside."
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Aveline
Well, I did specifically call out this specific point of mine as a minor stretch - the lesser of two possible stretches. The reliance here on a single visual cue (an image of the Twelve at Miko's fall) is why I'm comfortable handwaving it as "maybe they just wanted to watch".
The whole argument that paladins answer to the gods is supported only by that one visual cue, and the offhand comments of pious Azurites saying the Twelve blessed them with this and that. And if those comments are to mean anything, then we should also conclude that the Twelve personally arranged for Eugene to intercept the summoning of a being of a being of pure Law and Good. (Incidentally, I don't think Rooster or any god has anything to do with Sangwaan's vision, despite her saying that Rooster occasionally gives her "true" visions.)
So I'm still waiting for reliable evidence that paladins get their powers from the gods and can contact said gods.
Hilgya has access to Commune. Miko did not. Hilgya is a cleric. Miko was not. Hilgya prayed for something specific. Miko did not. Hilgya prays to one god. Miko prayed to a pantheon.
What, specifically do you think the Twelve should have done in response to Miko's prayer to see through the Order's lies? (Assuming they can even take any kind of action at all, when in fact the comic makes painfully clear that they can only act indirectly through clerics.)
1. The gods take Miko's powers away. Straight up evidence for them having the final say over her powers.
2. Commune is not mentioned in the comic. How is the reader supposed to know that Miko CANNOT ask the gods with prayers but Hilgya CAN?
3.The Twelve could have TOLD Miko
"The OotS is NOT EVIL except for the Halfling."
The comic makes it - in your own words - painfully obvious that the gods CAN do this, as per Hilgya's story AND they CAN take action in the material world (taking Miko's powers away, Thor changing the rules so Durkon's spell destroys the Ents).
4. Miko did pray for something as specific as Hilgya (let me see through their lies is not fundamentally different to where is Durkon)
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
2. Commune is not mentioned in the comic. How is the reader supposed to know that Miko CANNOT ask the gods with prayers but Hilgya CAN?
Ooh,i know! They're different classes. The only people we've ever seen interact with gods have been Clerics. A really religious Paladin isn't a Cleric anymore than a really religious Fighter captain who guards boarder towns from goblin attacks.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
4. Miko did pray for something as specific as Hilgya (let me see through their lies is not fundamentally different to where is Durkon)
This is a rather puzzling statement. To me they're clearly very different.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
hroşila
This is a rather puzzling statement. To me they're clearly very different.
Same. One could be answered with a single word, one very much can't.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
1. The gods take Miko's powers away. Straight up evidence for them having the final say over her powers.
That's one possible interpretation. There are no words saying anything along the lines of "the gods revoked her powers", unless you count Shojo's last words, and he also claimed Eugene was sent by the Twelve. It would be an inference from one visual cue which never appears in the comic again.
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2. Commune is not mentioned in the comic. How is the reader supposed to know that Miko CANNOT ask the gods with prayers but Hilgya CAN?
3.The Twelve could have TOLD Miko
"The OotS is NOT EVIL except for the Halfling."
The comic makes it - in your own words - painfully obvious that the gods CAN do this, as per Hilgya's story AND they CAN take action in the material world (taking Miko's powers away, Thor changing the rules so Durkon's spell destroys the Ents).
4. Miko did pray for something as specific as Hilgya (let me see through their lies is not fundamentally different to where is Durkon)
Miko is still not a cleric.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Ooh,i know! They're different classes. The only people we've ever seen interact with gods have been Clerics. A really religious Paladin isn't a Cleric anymore than a really religious Fighter captain who guards boarder towns from goblin attacks.
Bullhonkey!
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Originally Posted by
hroşila
This is a rather puzzling statement. To me they're clearly very different.
Yes they are different question, but how you can tell that one can be answered and the other one not is completely subjective and not covered.
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Same. One could be answered with a single word, one very much can't.
Bullhonkey!
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
Bullhonkey!
Yes they are different question, but how you can tell that one can be answered and the other one not is completely subjective and not covered.
Bullhonkey!
In general, when one calls bullhonkey (or any other bull curse) on a statement, one should then follow up with an explanation for how its wrong. Its typically used to emphasize that something is super extra wrong, or otherwise completely baseless.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Same. One could be answered with a single word, one very much can't.
Bullhonkey!
If that's the word the gods were to use, I am surprised that Sithrak was not among them. https://i.imgur.com/4q4U4ky.jpg
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
Bullhonkey!
As Keltest said, please provide arguments to back up your claims. For example, please provide a single word answer to "let me see through their lies."
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
I confess I'm quite unclear what the single-word answer to either would have been. "Quit" or "No" for Miko? "Home" or "North" for Hilgya?
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Kish
I confess I'm quite unclear what the single-word answer to either would have been. "Quit" or "No" for Miko? "Home" or "North" for Hilgya?
"Firmament" would have done the trick. Once there, the temple of Thor would have been the obvious place for Hilgya to check, for lack of a better lead.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Kish
I confess I'm quite unclear what the single-word answer to either would have been. "Quit" or "No" for Miko? "Home" or "North" for Hilgya?
"Firmament" for Hilgya. She certainly needed help finding him, and she went straight to the Temple of Thor, it looks like
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Kish
"Home" or "North" for Hilgya?
"Firmament". Or, possibly, the Temple of Thor in Firmament has a single-word name.
Grey Wolf
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
"Firmament" for Hilgya. She certainly needed help finding him, and she went straight to the Temple of Thor, it looks like
Yeah, but they didn't know where he was until quite recently. "Durkon Thundershield? Apparently my predecessor exiled him. He was in Azure City about ten months ago..."
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Kish
Yeah, but they didn't know where he was until quite recently. "Durkon Thundershield? Apparently my predecessor exiled him. He was in Azure City about ten months ago..."
So? Hilgya didn't get an answer until quite recently. On top of that, Loki may well have known that was his destination enough in advance to start her on the road before he arrived.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Keltest
In general, when one calls bullhonkey (or any other bull curse) on a statement, one should then follow up with an explanation for how its wrong. Its typically used to emphasize that something is super extra wrong, or otherwise completely baseless.
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
As Keltest said, please provide arguments to back up your claims. For example, please provide a single word answer to "let me see through their lies."
I'd also like an example of how paladins are actually clerics.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Yeah, I don't see the problem. At most, she'd talk to the priests there, they'd tell her they don't know where Durkon is or that last they heard he was in Azure City, and then she'd conclude that their intel is outdated and that she should start checking the taverns, ask about other Thundershields and pay Durkon's mom a visit, or what have you. I don't think that bit of old info would make her believe Loki's much more recent intel was wrong.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Keltest
So? Hilgya didn't get an answer until quite recently. On top of that, Loki may well have known that was his destination enough in advance to start her on the road before he arrived.
In addition, Hilgya had already headed back to dwarven lands before Loki answered her prayer, so she would have been close enough by that travel would not have taken long.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
And in any event, a cleric of Thor eventually hitting up a temple to Thor is a pretty good bet, ignoring all other possible options.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Lacuna Caster
What Miko specifically thinks, so far as I can tell, is that the Gods must have some particular plan/destiny in mind for her. My original point was that, in a certain sense, the Twelve would have to be complete imbeciles not to have a plan for her.
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Originally Posted by
Lacuna Caster
But those are rational and legitimate reasons to pay attention to Soon, Shojo, Gin-Jun, and other SG leaders! The Twelve absolutely should have been talking to these dudes, setting their agendas, and providing reasonable feedback about their performance!
You're thinking too narrowly. Everyone has unique talents, skills, experiences, ideas. Everyone's labor is needed for a culture, nation, or church to prosper. Should the gods not have a plan for everybody?
But they don't, because the gods (generally) don't micromanage the world. Maybe they can't, maybe it would compromise their reasons for creating free will, maybe they just don't care. Does it matter? The gods are flawed; this has been an established fact of the OotS universe, and is baked into both the story's MacGuffin and many of its characters' arcs (Durkon and Redcloak being the biggest examples).
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Counterpoint: if someone says, "you are X," and the person then believe they are X, there is a significant portion of blame shared.
I'm not sure that's true. I mean, if Shojo had intentionally raised Miko as a paranoid self-righteous prick, sure, but he didn't. The role Shojo played in Miko's fall is roughly comparable to the role Belkar played in Roy's—without Shojo/Belkar, Miko/Roy wouldn't have been able to fall (at least not how they did), but that shouldn't reduce the blame Miko/Xykon take for their murders.
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Originally Posted by
Mightymosy
Second, most importantly, the prayers Miko did BEFORE going nuts. Remember the montage showing her in a circle of candles, praying to her gods?
Nothing in the comic says that the twelve gods were UNABLE to answer those prayers, verbally or with a vision. At least nothing I know.
Of course one could always bend over backwards and invent explanations.
OF COURSE there MIGHT be a specific rule that the twelve gods are not allowed to answer prayers of dark haired chicks in white-blue clothes who wield katanas and sit in a circle of candles. Except on April 1st. When it's Wednesday. And said clothes are in the laundry. And the moon is blue. Or the sun is exactly at 2/3 of zenith. But only if you wear Micky Mouse underpants. But not a Micky Mouse watch.
Etc etc.......
I'm not going to act like the Twelve Gods couldn't have answered Miko's prayers, and I doubt anyone else is going to invent explanations as elaborate as yours. (The most elaborate they get is "Paladins are different than clerics," which seems like it should be pretty self-explanatory, but apparently isn't.) Instead, I'm going to ask you: So what?
The Twelve didn't see fit to respond to Miko's prayers. They were prayers of self-righteous hubris, an intense desire to destroy evil above doing good. The Twelve have many followers whose prayers they ignore, many whose prayers echo the dark flaws hidden within their hearts. Is Miko's level justification enough to expect the Twelve to respond directly, as they so rarely do?
It was a mistake for the Twelve not to intervene in Miko's life, just as it was a mistake for them not to intervene in Tsukiko's or a thousand other Azurites who fell off the straight and narrow. Perhaps the gods have the power but not the motivation; perhaps they have the motivation and not the power. Regardless, I see no reason to focus on Miko specifically instead of the gods' management strategy in general.
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Originally Posted by
Vinyadan
I can imagine the convention where they decide that.
Given real-life historical parallels, I doubt it would be quite so civil. I can't really get into further details without stepping over forum rules, so...
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Originally Posted by
Aveline
That's one possible interpretation. There are no words saying anything along the lines of "the gods revoked her powers", unless you count Shojo's last words, and he also claimed Eugene was sent by the Twelve. It would be an inference from one visual cue which never appears in the comic again.
1. Again, cinematic language. You say that "the cuts between gods, lightning bolt, and Miko doesn't prove the gods were involved" is a weak side argument, but it's core to what you're arguing here.
2. Shojo has no reason to lie, and nothing indicates that he is. Should we assume every word Shojo says is a lie until proven otherwise?
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
As Keltest said, please provide arguments to back up your claims. For example, please provide a single word answer to "let me see through their lies."
"Dumbass." Though I guess Miko would probably interpret that as referring to the Order...
Which I guess brings us to the question of what the Twelve could have said to let Miko realize she was being a dumbass.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
GreatWyrmGold
"Dumbass." Though I guess Miko would probably interpret that as referring to the Order...
Which I guess brings us to the question of what the Twelve could have said to let Miko realize she was being a dumbass.
Probably nothing, considering that being zapped with a bolt from the sky that drained her of all her paladin powers didn't do it.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
GreatWyrmGold
1. Again, cinematic language. You say that "the cuts between gods, lightning bolt, and Miko doesn't prove the gods were involved" is a weak side argument, but it's core to what you're arguing here.
Well, it doesnt' prove anything. You say the cinematic language is conclusive, I say show me the cinematic dictionary. At best it suggests the Twelve were the source of a paladin's powers, but there is nothing to corroborate this. The facts of that page are these: Miko fell and there was a visage of the Twelve. It does not mean gods grant paladin powers unambiguously. It does not even mean the gods were there unambiguously.
And as the rest of your post shows (which I fully agree with, IIRC) it really is a side argument.
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2. Shojo has no reason to lie, and nothing indicates that he is. Should we assume every word Shojo says is a lie until proven otherwise?
I'm not saying Shojo is a liar, although he is. I'm saying he either didn't mean it that way or was making an assumption. Just like with Eugene. Because the only other possibility there (that he was correct in saying Eugene was sent by the Twelve) is insane.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
What if we just made a single minor change to Miko's life- her interactions with MitD.
MitD kinda knocked her out of the tower, flinging her hundreds of feet away, possibly causing her an additional day or two of travel. Had she been knocked down instead of to the side, she might have gotten there much earlier and Azure City may have been able to rally their defenses more readily. Also, she probably wouldn't have killed Shojo, though him explaining the partial truth might result in her finding the same course of logic as in the comic. That would still give Hinjo an extra day or so to rally the troops, potentially wining the war.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Squire Doodad
What if we just made a single minor change to Miko's life- her interactions with MitD.
MitD kinda knocked her out of the tower, flinging her hundreds of feet away, possibly causing her an additional day or two of travel. Had she been knocked down instead of to the side, she might have gotten there much earlier and Azure City may have been able to rally their defenses more readily. Also, she probably wouldn't have killed Shojo, though him explaining the partial truth might result in her finding the same course of logic as in the comic. That would still give Hinjo an extra day or so to rally the troops, potentially wining the war.
I mean, not only is that unnecessary, but it's not really how MITD works: The joke of that scene is that MITD hitting her as softly as possible was enough to knock her out of the tower for hundreds of feet. I'm not ssure how ti could just "knock her down".
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Squire Doodad
What if we just made a single minor change to Miko's life- her interactions with MitD.
MitD kinda knocked her out of the tower, flinging her hundreds of feet away, possibly causing her an additional day or two of travel. Had she been knocked down instead of to the side, she might have gotten there much earlier and Azure City may have been able to rally their defenses more readily. Also, she probably wouldn't have killed Shojo, though him explaining the partial truth might result in her finding the same course of logic as in the comic. That would still give Hinjo an extra day or so to rally the troops, potentially wining the war.
I mean, the very next strip the MitD has caught up to Miko and Windstriker, so I doubt she was set back an additional day or two. And also, "hundreds of feet" is a two or three-minute setback on foot, let alone on horseback.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
Had she been knocked down instead of to the side, she would probably have met her end crashing into the Earth's molten core... or whatever D&D has instead of it.
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Re: What if... Miko never killed Shojo?
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Originally Posted by
Ruck
I mean, the very next strip the MitD has caught up to Miko and Windstriker, so I doubt she was set back an additional day or two. And also, "hundreds of feet" is a two or three-minute setback on foot, let alone on horseback.
Arriving three minutes earlier or later to the throne room of Azure City could have resulted in drawing some very different conclusions by Miko, seeing as Shojo seemed to be wrapping things up when they barged in.