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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
From this last chapter, it seems to me that Sasuke's eventual redemption is ever more certain. And with all the parallels between Naruto/Hashirama and Sasuke/Madara, it's becoming clear that redeeming Sasuke is just as important to Naruto's character arc as Sasuke's, if not more so.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
however we know that redemption=death for at least one of them in their next encounter
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
And this is why I think the genetic insane Uchiha thing is so utterly stupid. Before, I could happily believe that it was just Madara, scheming politicians on both sides and Itachi and Sasuke (both insane due to the emotional trauma they'd been through as children) and that the bulk of the Uchiha clan were maybe fairly okay dudes no worse than, say the Hyuuga, with maybe a few stand-up guys like Obito. But no, apparently the whole clan was Always Chaotic Evil, at which point any sympathy I had for them evaporated. If Kishi was trying to make the clan look sympathetic, he only succeed in villainising them (and not even in a good way).
Not really touching much of the rest of things, but...
This, right here. This is the single largest problem with the "reveals" of the last few chapters regarding the Uchiha.
It takes all the speculation and statements about motives from Obito ("I want to make a world where no one gets hurt!"), Itachi ("I must protect the village and my brother"), Madara ("I am totes more awesome than y'all and deserve to rule everything"), and all the other Uchiha...
And reduces it to "LOLOLOL, WE BE TOTES CRAY-CRAY WITH EMO-EYES GUYS!!!!".
Which is...sad, really. It's one of those things that, when all is said and done, will probably just need to be ignored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VanBuren
From this last chapter, it seems to me that Sasuke's eventual redemption is ever more certain. And with all the parallels between Naruto/Hashirama and Sasuke/Madara, it's becoming clear that redeeming Sasuke is just as important to Naruto's character arc as Sasuke's, if not more so.
How?
I'm honestly asking this: How will Sasuke be "redeemed"?
Like, putting aside the whole "crazy genetics and emo-eyes" thing (maybe the Eternal M. Sharingan gives their crazy a certain level of stability?), at this point in the story, Sasuke has shown no regret, no redeeeming motives (Nagato was angry at the world for treading on his friends and dreams, and wanted to make it a better place, and same with Obito; Gaara just had a messed-up childhood), and basically no sign that it's even possible to redeem him.
Sadly, this means there's a greater-than-even chance that instead of Redemption Equals Death like Nagato got, Sasuke will have a "sudden revelation" that he was wrong all along, kiss Sakura while declaring his love for her, and give everyone a hug while proclaiming how awesome Teamwork, Friendship, and Love are.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
how will Sasuke be redeemed?
by the usual, archetypical, central to how you make friends in shonen manga always, all the time, ever since the first shonen ever way:
By beating Sasuke senseless to a bloody pulp with big weapons, bigger energy attacks, ridiculously calling out said attacks with various bits of philosophy implausibly interspersed throughout the fight until he finally at last gets defeated and realizes that he was wrong at the same time, thus going the Way or Tao of the Gaara.
or.
working together with the hero while still constantly proclaiming to be their rival while being a grumpy, stern jerk who gradually starts to admit that he is actually a good guy at heart even though he is still a jerk and his rival,thus going the Way or Tao of the Vegeta. or the Way or Tao of the Piccolo, whichever one you think is more valid.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
It may be through a heroic sacrifice, but it can't not happen if we're actually going to have Naruto be the one to inherit the Senju legacy and put an end to the feud. Hashirama failed to bring Madara back from the darkness, and you can't have Naruto fail to surpass him in that regard, especially if you've been blatantly putting him on the path of surpassing all of his predecessors at key things.
It also doesn't have to mean that everything is great and no one cares about Sasuke's deeds. Scar from Fullmetal Alchemist had a redemption arc, and in his case it concluded with a new purpose in life to rebuild and restore his people but also very clearly not letting him off scott-free.
Granted, she was a better author than Kishi. Point is, Kishi has options.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KnightDisciple
Not really touching much of the rest of things, but...
This, right here. This is the single largest problem with the "reveals" of the last few chapters regarding the Uchiha.
It takes all the speculation and statements about motives from Obito ("I want to make a world where no one gets hurt!"), Itachi ("I must protect the village and my brother"), Madara ("I am totes more awesome than y'all and deserve to rule everything"), and all the other Uchiha...
And reduces it to "LOLOLOL, WE BE TOTES CRAY-CRAY WITH EMO-EYES GUYS!!!!".
Not saying I'm a great fan of the latest Uchiha reveals but I think of it much more as "I need to do X because LOVE and I'll do it if it means I have to kill anyone in my way" which really is what people who think Love is such a great thing think as well. The Uchiha just turn it up to 11. Also, if you still think that's Madara's motivation I think you've missed a bit of the plot recently.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KnightDisciple
Not really touching much of the rest of things, but...
This, right here. This is the single largest problem with the "reveals" of the last few chapters regarding the Uchiha.
It takes all the speculation and statements about motives from Obito ("I want to make a world where no one gets hurt!"), Itachi ("I must protect the village and my brother"), Madara ("I am totes more awesome than y'all and deserve to rule everything"), and all the other Uchiha...
And reduces it to "LOLOLOL, WE BE TOTES CRAY-CRAY WITH EMO-EYES GUYS!!!!".
Which is...sad, really. It's one of those things that, when all is said and done, will probably just need to be ignored.
Exactly.
If it wasn't for that particular brand of Stupid, we wouldn't have been having the prior conversations and the Uchiha clan (if not the current crop of characters) would have had at least some redeeming qualities - and it wouldn't have come dangerously close to making Danzou's actions look coldly practical and not pants-on-head-insane.
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Originally Posted by KnightDisciple
How?
I'm honestly asking this: How will Sasuke be "redeemed"?
Like, putting aside the whole "crazy genetics and emo-eyes" thing (maybe the Eternal M. Sharingan gives their crazy a certain level of stability?), at this point in the story, Sasuke has shown no regret, no redeeeming motives (Nagato was angry at the world for treading on his friends and dreams, and wanted to make it a better place, and same with Obito; Gaara just had a messed-up childhood), and basically no sign that it's even possible to redeem him.
Sadly, this means there's a greater-than-even chance that instead of Redemption Equals Death like Nagato got, Sasuke will have a "sudden revelation" that he was wrong all along, kiss Sakura while declaring his love for her, and give everyone a hug while proclaiming how awesome Teamwork, Friendship, and Love are.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I just cannot possibly buy redemption from Sasuke at all now. After last night, seeing how completely petty and utterly self-centric he is; to the point where he wants to slaughter innocent people in a fit of pique - and not just kill people who try to disuade him; not just people that try to actually oppose him, but he actually said if anyone tried to talk him out it he'd kill their families.
That goes WAAAAY beyond the bounds of anti-hero right into flat-out Evil. Hell, it's several steps beyond what I'd do (though of course, I'm also Lawful and much more practical.) He's never showed any remorse - at all. If his motivation is love, it's the very most selfish kind of love imaginable. Sasuke is upset by what HE was denied; he clearly doesn't really care about Itachi at all (as evidenced by him not giving a flying frag about what Itachi would have wanted) only that he didn't get the love and affection from Itachi that he thinks is his right.
For frag's sake, Madara outright said he helped Itachi murder his entire clan because he's a power-mad megalomanic and Sasuke didn't seem to even bat an eyelid.
Worse, Naruto has already placed Sasuke above the rest of his friends. From what I'm getting from you guys, we've already started to lose people: how many of his other friends is Naruto going to sacrifice for Sasuke? Is Sasuke going to be worth Hinata's life? Lee's? Kakashi's? Sakura's?
(To be brutally honest, at the point characters started dropping - assuming there's not another mass resurrection - I think that Naruto has already failed.)
What worries me the most is that by the end we'll have a ludicrous body count and Sasuke will just somehow magically Not Be Evil anymore or something and get away scot-free because Naruto is Hokage, leaving a big pile of Naruto's dead friends behind him and it all shown that he's done the right thing. Such an ending will rival Mass Effect 3's for horridness.
Worst case scenario is nearly everyone if not actually everyone is killed off doing Nobel Sacrifices and Sasuke actually kills Naruto and in doing so suddenly Regret (because with his dying breath Naruto forgives him and makes a friendship speech or something) and Sasuke has an about face and saves the day (like, in Naruto's honour) and gets to walk away afterwards (maybe become Hokage because he's good now), more or less the only named character to survive and by far the least deserving.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Aotrs, you're following Naruto in anime pace while picking up some things we discus on the manga, right? I hope I'm not spoiling anything by telling you that it won't be as bad as you're anticipating. Things make bit more sense as plot goes onward.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Exactly.
If it wasn't for that particular brand of Stupid, we wouldn't have been having the prior conversations and the Uchiha clan (if not the current crop of characters) would have had at least some redeeming qualities - and it wouldn't have come dangerously close to making Danzou's actions look coldly practical and not pants-on-head-insane.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I just cannot possibly buy redemption from Sasuke at all now. After last night, seeing how completely petty and utterly self-centric he is; to the point where he wants to slaughter innocent people in a fit of pique - and not just kill people who try to disuade him; not just people that try to actually oppose him, but he actually said if anyone tried to talk him out it he'd kill their families.
That goes WAAAAY beyond the bounds of anti-hero right into flat-out Evil. Hell, it's several steps beyond what I'd do (though of course, I'm also Lawful and much more practical.) He's never showed any remorse - at all. If his motivation is love, it's the very most selfish kind of love imaginable. Sasuke is upset by what HE was denied; he clearly doesn't really care about Itachi at all (as evidenced by him not giving a flying frag about what Itachi would have wanted) only that he didn't get the love and affection from Itachi that he thinks is his right.
For frag's sake, Madara outright said he helped Itachi murder his entire clan because he's a power-mad megalomanic and Sasuke didn't seem to even bat an eyelid.
Worse, Naruto has already placed Sasuke above the rest of his friends. From what I'm getting from you guys, we've already started to lose people: how many of his other friends is Naruto going to sacrifice for Sasuke? Is Sasuke going to be worth Hinata's life? Lee's? Kakashi's? Sakura's?
(To be brutally honest, at the point characters started dropping - assuming there's not another mass resurrection - I think that Naruto has already failed.)
What worries me the most is that by the end we'll have a ludicrous body count and Sasuke will just somehow magically Not Be Evil anymore or something and get away scot-free because Naruto is Hokage, leaving a big pile of Naruto's dead friends behind him and it all shown that he's done the right thing. Such an ending will rival Mass Effect 3's for horridness.
Worst case scenario is nearly everyone if not actually everyone is killed off doing Nobel Sacrifices and Sasuke actually kills Naruto and in doing so suddenly Regret (because with his dying breath Naruto forgives him and makes a friendship speech or something) and Sasuke has an about face and saves the day (like, in Naruto's honour) and gets to walk away afterwards (maybe become Hokage because he's good now), more or less the only named character to survive and by far the least deserving.
I think it's more likely that Sasuke gets a Death for Redemption thing, and is going to die taking Orochimaru down.
I mean Obito and Madara get credit for starting a war - but arguably they have an attainable goal behind their actions.
Orochimaru is worse because he is literally doing it FOR THE EVILOLZ!
SOMEBODY is going to have to stop him. And I get the feeling its going to be Sasuke.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darksolitaire
Aotrs, you're following Naruto in anime pace while picking up some things we discus on the manga, right?
Pretty much yeah. While normally I avoid spoilers like the plague, for a year or two I very heavily read Naruto fanfiction, which by its nature kept me pretty much up to date even though I'm way behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darksolitaire
I hope I'm not spoiling anything by telling you that it won't be as bad as you're anticipating. Things make bit more sense as plot goes onward.
Well, there is something like that. Even having the knowledge of the events coming in broad strokes sometimes doesn't cover the actual events when shown on-screen. (Madara's reveal, for instance. I knew that was coming, but they way they did it still left me gaping.)
That said.
Sasuke's little arc was painful to watch. I found all the characters annoying, Sasuke especially (double-especially for the way he just believed the guy who cheerfully admitted he was a megalomanic who helped murder Sasuke's clan because he was miffed everyone didn't make him the leader).
And finding out Madara was actually Obito kinda ruined Madara for me, because was shaping up to be otherwise a really good villain, Moon's Eye plan and all (which I thought especially creepy when thinking of what the Master did in Doctor Who in At the End of Time.) But now all that was apparently just someone doing another Sasuke and I find that sort of villain to be not only irritating but unconvincing, unlike Orochimaru who I actually find more believable (and somewhat relatable, if I'm brutaly honest).
I didn't find the Itachi-is-a-good-guy-(sorta) reveal to be any less stupid when it came in the show than when I first heard about it through fanfiction; again, I think he worked better as a villain before that.
(Basically, I just can't take Sasuke's motivation as credible, nor the apparent similar one from Obito (or Pain for that matter, who I find as sanctomoniously smug and infuriating as Sasuke)1. The whole "woe is me, people I know died so I'm going to kill people/take over the world" riles me on a level I can't quite express properly. The smug, self-rightousness really doesn't help in that regard, since it only angers me to the point I don't want just to see them beaten, I want to see them suffer, just to wipe that smug expression off their faces. Or at least have it slammed into their heads that they aren't special, they aren't unique and that other people have suffered as much if not more than them and have it pounded into their skulls that if they go ahead with what they are doing, they are doing evil and to either stop or accept that fact and stop trying to shirk responsibilty away by going "the world made me do it" or some such nonsense.)
So I'm kinda dubious that these reveals can in anyway not suck as much as they appear to.
But I guess time will tell...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
I think it's more likely that Sasuke gets a Death for Redemption thing, and is going to die taking Orochimaru down.
I mean Obito and Madara get credit for starting a war - but arguably they have an attainable goal behind their actions.
Orochimaru is worse because he is literally doing it FOR THE EVILOLZ!
SOMEBODY is going to have to stop him. And I get the feeling its going to be Sasuke.
That would be probably be the best case I can hope for, I think.
But like I say, I find Orochimaru (and maybe Madara) to have more credible motivations than Obito/Sasuke/Pain's because old-fashioned hunger-for-power is something that does happen. Wars start over that; they do not start over "I'm going to conquer the world to end suffering." (They do start over "I'm going to conquer the world because My Way is better and everyone should be like me whether they want to or not", yes, but that's not the same thing.)
1Itachi's, yes, I can actually understand motivation-wise. His intentions were noble, at any rate. It was just his unfathomably inept execution of his plan that marks him down (as, like I say, it's almost like canon is showing us the worst-case scenario involving the Uchiha, as his plan has backfired in the worst possibly way). Itachi was a numpty, but at least a numpty with his heart in something like the right place. Sort of.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
That would be probably be the best case I can hope for, I think.
But like I say, I find Orochimaru (and maybe Madara) to have more credible motivations than Obito/Sasuke/Pain's because old-fashioned hunger-for-power is something that does happen. Wars start over that; they do not start over "I'm going to conquer the world to end suffering." (They do start over "I'm going to conquer the world because My Way is better and everyone should be like me whether they want to or not", yes, but that's not the same thing.)
Pfff, the whole 'end suffering' thing is just the BS that Obito feeds to the masses. He's a little boy that wants to conquer the world so he can fake bringing his crush back to life.
And Madara... well, he just straight up wants to rule the world.
The problem with Orochimaru is that he apparently DOESN'T want to conquer anything. I mean pretty much his entire series of plans was meant to try and get himself a Sharingan.
Once he had the Sharingan.... time for pie?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
The problem with Orochimaru is that he apparently DOESN'T want to conquer anything. I mean pretty much his entire series of plans was meant to try and get himself a Sharingan.
Once he had the Sharingan.... time for pie?
Originally Sharingan allowed user to see hand seals (it also allows user to see chakra, but first time I remember this being mentioned was in Sasuke's fight against Deidara. Odd, since point was made by Kakashi that only Byakugan can see chakra points in body) which makes them easier to copy, thus allowing user to learn new jutsu faster. That's the power Oro's after.
Oro's motives are a bit...muddled. They are given in different forms all over the manga.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Only Byakugan can see the chakra points, but Sharingan gives colors to chakra.
Regarding the recent explanation of the Sharingan, I have no problems with it since it makes so much sense. Neither do I think it absolves Tobirama or Danzo, as they pointedly did nothing to improve the situation.
I think the explanation opens up a new, interesting way for Sasuke's redemption - casting away the Sharingan and its legacy. Time will tell.
But there's one thing that bugs me about this scenario. Rinnegan are eyes of the sage, while Sharingan are eyes clouded by loss. How do you get the former from the latter? So far, the persons we've seen with the Rinnegan have all been about achieving world peace, though with questionable methods. (I do think Nagato's plan would've worked, though. See: real world MAD.)
Apparently, the first Sage of the Six paths was after something similar, based on what we know of him. I still think there's a piece of the puzzle missing.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
I always thought it was basically,
1) Sharingan lets you memorize what you see instantly
2) This includes hand signs
3) So therefore you use the handsigns you copied and pour chakra into it and bam, jutsu.
4) Corollary to this is, a copied jutsu wont be as good as the real thing because said uchiha is just flinging chakra at it without full understanding of the jutsu, but with practice he can master it.
In the wave arc when kakashi kicked zabuzas ass with his copy cat abilities, I just assumed he already knew the great waterfall technique or whatever its called, (he IS known as the stealer of a thousand jutsus) so when he started copying the handsigns and figured out what it was for he just outpaced zabuza and blasted him with the jutsu first while using eye based genjutsu to mess with his head.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
I always thought it was basically,
1) Sharingan lets you memorize what you see instantly
2) This includes hand signs
3) So therefore you use the handsigns you copied and pour chakra into it and bam, jutsu.
The handsigns themselves aren't enough to copy/use a jutsu. You also need to mold the right type of chakra. Handsigns are enablers that help you use mold the chakra correctly, the more proficient you get with molding the chakra you can reduce the number of handsigns needed or even use 1 or no hands to perform the jutsu (for example Killer B streamed his chakra through his swords to cancel chidori without using any handsigns.)
Naruto problem at the very beginning was not perform the handsigns correctly/incorrectly it was meading the chakra correctly and thus he sucked at doing the replication techinque.
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What makes the sharignan so hax is not just instant memorization of what is being performed in front of them (thus memorizing hand signs). It is also giving chakra a color so the user understand what is being performed when it witnessed so he can replicate both the handsigns and the molding of chakra to copy the technique.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Exactly.
If it wasn't for that particular brand of Stupid, we wouldn't have been having the prior conversations and the Uchiha clan (if not the current crop of characters) would have had at least some redeeming qualities - and it wouldn't have come dangerously close to making Danzou's actions look coldly practical and not pants-on-head-insane.
Precisely.
Back when Danzou died, it was a sense of "well a danger to ninja everywhere, including Konoha, is gone, maybe this will give Sasuke some satisfacation-NOPE CRAZY". Now apparently he was just doing the reasonable thing by helping take out a clan of genetic crazies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Yeah, I'm sorry, I just cannot possibly buy redemption from Sasuke at all now. After last night, seeing how completely petty and utterly self-centric he is; to the point where he wants to slaughter innocent people in a fit of pique - and not just kill people who try to disuade him; not just people that try to actually oppose him, but he actually said if anyone tried to talk him out it he'd kill their families.
He has yet to recant this statement, as I recall from my readings; he may have put it on hold, but he hasn't said "ahaha, nah, I was wrong".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Worse, Naruto has already placed Sasuke above the rest of his friends. From what I'm getting from you guys, we've already started to lose people: how many of his other friends is Naruto going to sacrifice for Sasuke? Is Sasuke going to be worth Hinata's life? Lee's? Kakashi's? Sakura's?
Those deaths are unrelated to Sasuke, though. They really aren't his fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
(To be brutally honest, at the point characters started dropping - assuming there's not another mass resurrection - I think that Naruto has already failed.)
To a point it's a failure, but on the flip side given the situation it's not totally ridiculous. It actually had genuine impact, and I thought it was handled pretty well.
The telling thing will be if it keeps getting repeated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
What worries me the most is that by the end we'll have a ludicrous body count and Sasuke will just somehow magically Not Be Evil anymore or something and get away scot-free because Naruto is Hokage, leaving a big pile of Naruto's dead friends behind him and it all shown that he's done the right thing. Such an ending will rival Mass Effect 3's for horridness.
Right now Sasuke's not racking up a count.
But generally speaking that's the direction of my worry/frustration as well.
I'd be more satisfied with a redemption equals death thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Worst case scenario is nearly everyone if not actually everyone is killed off doing Nobel Sacrifices and Sasuke actually kills Naruto and in doing so suddenly Regret (because with his dying breath Naruto forgives him and makes a friendship speech or something) and Sasuke has an about face and saves the day (like, in Naruto's honour) and gets to walk away afterwards (maybe become Hokage because he's good now), more or less the only named character to survive and by far the least deserving.
I don't think it'll be that bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darksolitaire
Aotrs, you're following Naruto in anime pace while picking up some things we discus on the manga, right? I hope I'm not spoiling anything by telling you that it won't be as bad as you're anticipating. Things make bit more sense as plot goes onward.
Other than misplacing blame for deaths...it really is that bad. Uchiha genetic crazy is exactly as bad as it sounds, and again, Sasuke's not yet recanted the whole "Imma kill a bunch of folks" thing.
I genuinely still don't understand Sasuke's motivations/reasoning, beyond "RAWR KILL".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
I think it's more likely that Sasuke gets a Death for Redemption thing, and is going to die taking Orochimaru down.
I mean Obito and Madara get credit for starting a war - but arguably they have an attainable goal behind their actions.
Orochimaru is worse because he is literally doing it FOR THE EVILOLZ!
SOMEBODY is going to have to stop him. And I get the feeling its going to be Sasuke.
Mutual annihilation between Sasuke and Orochimaru wouldn't be that bad, I guess.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Orochimaru just wants to be the very best, that no one ever was. He wants all the jutsu, all of it. As for what he's gonna do with it? Who the heck knows. Dude just likes ninja magic I guess.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
Pfff, the whole 'end suffering' thing is just the BS that Obito feeds to the masses. He's a little boy that wants to conquer the world so he can fake bringing his crush back to life.
And Madara... well, he just straight up wants to rule the world.
Y'know... that's a point.
A real good point.
I mean, when I first heard about the Moon's Eye plan and thought of the Master, my thought was "Madara doesn't want to rule the world, he wants to BE the world... And everything else is just lies so that gullible muppets like Pain go along with it." Why should that have changed now, right?
The Uchiha genetics thing annoyed me enough it muddied my thinking a bit. If I was in his/their position, I'd lie my arse off just to keep them guessing and just keep making crap up to keep off balance.
Maybe you're right, I should bear in my that it's still to play for and if worst comes to worst I can always interpret what is shown how the heck I like anyway (which is what I did with the ME 3 ending).
Where's all this Uchiha genetic-crazy information coming from anyway? It isn't Obito/Madara explaining it is it?
('Cos if it is I'll just go and bang my head on the wall and apologise for being so stupid.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olinser
The problem with Orochimaru is that he apparently DOESN'T want to conquer anything. I mean pretty much his entire series of plans was meant to try and get himself a Sharingan.
Once he had the Sharingan.... time for pie?
Immortality is a totally relatable goal, though (says the Lich...) It does kinda give Roachy a certain spin on it that all the other bad guys seem to lack (what with all being "conquer the world/change the world/detroy the world or large portion thereof..."), come to that, though.
Though as I recall, both immortality and the Sharigarn were basicaly just tools so that he could learn all the jutsu in the world.
Kinda be interesting to see what would have happened if he did succeed in that. What would he do next? Or would it be the old "... I hadn't thought that far ahead..." 'Cos that'd be funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KnightDisciple
To a point it's a failure, but on the flip side given the situation it's not totally ridiculous. It actually had genuine impact, and I thought it was handled pretty well.
The telling thing will be if it keeps getting repeated.
I was thinking more of the more recent ones than Asuma or Jiraiya, whom yes, WAS handled well. And Kishi does tend to fake us out with deaths anyway (and I am totally okay with that), so by this point I'm in all honestly not passing judgement on that until the dust settles.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
(Basically, I just can't take Sasuke's motivation as credible, nor the apparent similar one from Obito (or Pain for that matter, who I find as sanctomoniously smug and infuriating as Sasuke)1. The whole "woe is me, people I know died so I'm going to kill people/take over the world" riles me on a level I can't quite express properly. The smug, self-rightousness really doesn't help in that regard, since it only angers me to the point I don't want just to see them beaten, I want to see them suffer, just to wipe that smug expression off their faces. Or at least have it slammed into their heads that they aren't special, they aren't unique and that other people have suffered as much if not more than them and have it pounded into their skulls that if they go ahead with what they are doing, they are doing evil and to either stop or accept that fact and stop trying to shirk responsibilty away by going "the world made me do it" or some such nonsense.)
*snip*
But like I say, I find Orochimaru (and maybe Madara) to have more credible motivations than Obito/Sasuke/Pain's because old-fashioned hunger-for-power is something that does happen. Wars start over that; they do not start over "I'm going to conquer the world to end suffering." (They do start over "I'm going to conquer the world because My Way is better and everyone should be like me whether they want to or not", yes, but that's not the same thing.)
I think I'd have to disagree at least somewhat on Pain for sure.
I mean, yes, some of it is motivated specifically by the loss of his friend, but recall that he was in a freedom fighter's group beforehand, that was very nearly crushed by Hanzo and Danzou (ARE THEY RELATED OMG :smalltongue:). It seems like he learned the lesson "Okay, to make the world even vaguely like what I want, I clearly need to be the most powerful person in the room. I will take my power to the fullest extent, and I will make the world shut up, sit down, and listen to me. I mean, his motivation with the collection of the Tailed Beasts was, essentially, to set up a MAD scenario to force everyone to play nice. Kind of like the Cold War, but with 100% more ninjas with wacky powers. He wasn't necessarily going to control everyone's thoughts or anything, just use the threat of destruction to make them sit down and behave. It's not necessarily an entirely sane plan, but I can follow and understand the logic, I can see where he came to the attitude he held, that sort of thing. The world kept not working like he thought it ought to, so he was going to make it work like it should. And Pain's goal was less "end all suffering" and more "prevent all wars", which is...still kind of silly, but it's also more achievable, at least in the short-term.
Obito's plan is one that only makes sense if you've been driven insane, and I'm pretty sure he has been. There's a kind of sad desperation involved in it as well.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KnightDisciple
I think I'd have to disagree at least somewhat on Pain for sure.
I mean, yes, some of it is motivated specifically by the loss of his friend, but recall that he was in a freedom fighter's group beforehand, that was very nearly crushed by Hanzo and Danzou (ARE THEY RELATED OMG :smalltongue:).
Eeh, something about him just really rubs me the wrong way, I guess. Not as much as Sasuke, but enough.
Maybe it's just the smugness and hypocrasy ('cos he's quite okay with creating any number of orphans like him in his path to his success).
Actually, another interesting alternate universe would be seeing Pain win, and then having to deal with someone else coming out of the woodwork whose family he killed on his way who points out he's just as bad as Hanzo ever was...
Also, didn't know that last part but oddly enough it somehow doesn't surprise me at all...
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
The Uchiha genetic information comes from Sasuke talking to the first four Hokage. Particularly, it's Tobirama explaining to Sasuke's face how 'the Uchiha are evil'.
Tobirama's an ass, albeit new information makes it look more and more like a justified ass. Although I'd really love to know why he ends up developing Impure World Resurrection.
Incidentally, we're seeing the current flashback now because Sasuke asked Hashirama about what does being a ninja mean/what does village mean. And thus we're getting.... the history of Hashirama-Madara.
And this conversation is supposed to be what tips Sasuke in either continuing his 'KILL EVERYTHING' thing or dropping it.
Also, apparently the Hyuuga haven't shown up in the flashback yet. Aren't they supposed to be a big important noble clan of Konohagakure?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ramza00
The handsigns themselves aren't enough to copy/use a jutsu. You also need to mold the right type of chakra. Handsigns are enablers that help you use mold the chakra correctly, the more proficient you get with molding the chakra you can reduce the number of handsigns needed or even use 1 or no hands to perform the jutsu (for example Killer B streamed his chakra through his swords to cancel chidori without using any handsigns.)
Naruto problem at the very beginning was not perform the handsigns correctly/incorrectly it was meading the chakra correctly and thus he sucked at doing the replication techinque.
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What makes the sharignan so hax is not just instant memorization of what is being performed in front of them (thus memorizing hand signs). It is also giving chakra a color so the user understand what is being performed when it witnessed so he can replicate both the handsigns and the molding of chakra to copy the technique.
Yeah, but molding the right "type" of chakra isnt that big a deal. When that guy shouts out Suiton: Daibakufu no jutsu , take a wild guess what type of chakra you need to channel? Honestly, if I ran the uchiha clan, one of the first things I would teach my ninja after activating their sharingan is how to use the various elemental chakra types on a basic level. Clearly specific elements would work better for them than others, but it would be enough to let them copy and use techniques on the fly. But once again, they would likely be somewhat weaker due to a lower level of mastery over the technique and the element in general.
Narutos problem was that he was using a fire hose to fill up a teaspoon. He had more chakra than ninja twice his age, and less control than pre academy konohamaru. You cant shove a gallon of water into a balloon in under a second and expect it to do anything other than pop. Combined with academy teachers that either werent aware of his problem or didnt care to help and he was screwed.
Honestly, I think the best way kakashi could have helped him was to teach him techniques that scale up with amount of chakra used instead of requiring specific amounts. Like his shadow clones, the guy could drop 9 tails worth of kyuubi juice into the technique and the only difference would be the sheer number of clones created. Find other techniques that work that way and naruto could have been a powerhouse early on with minimal effort. I say kakashi but really, it could have been jiraya or anyone else that taught him anything. Just give him something in between substitution, and sage mode, you know? Aside from substitution and MAYBE his henge, (im still not convinced there wasnt something fishy about it) the poor bastard doesnt have a single technique lower than a b rank kinjutsu. How screwed up is that? All his moves are either forbidden techniques, a-s rank, or "holy &*^%*%$ what rank should we give THAT?!"
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
I was thinking more of the more recent ones than Asuma or Jiraiya, whom yes, WAS handled well. And Kishi does tend to fake us out with deaths anyway (and I am totally okay with that), so by this point I'm in all honestly not passing judgement on that until the dust settles.
Right, but none of the deaths in the last...like 50 chapters are Sasuke's. That's more my point. They're wartime casualties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Eeh, something about him just really rubs me the wrong way, I guess. Not as much as Sasuke, but enough.
Maybe it's just the smugness and hypocrasy ('cos he's quite okay with creating any number of orphans like him in his path to his success).
Actually, another interesting alternate universe would be seeing Pain win, and then having to deal with someone else coming out of the woodwork whose family he killed on his way who points out he's just as bad as Hanzo ever was...
I didn't say he was perfect, but I think he's at least better about it.
He also seems to at least acknowledge that his actions cause others pain. He just thinks that pain is worth the greater goal.
And I'd imagine most people would end up totally crushed by Pain; Naruto won by power, luck, skill, and observation combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Also, didn't know that last part but oddly enough it somehow doesn't surprise me at all...
It was a joke based on how similar their names sound and how ruthless they both are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Somewhere
*snip*
Also, apparently the Hyuuga haven't shown up in the flashback yet. Aren't they supposed to be a big important noble clan of Konohagakure?
Silly Somewhere, expecting clans besides the Uchiha to be important. :smalltongue:
Actually, this touches on something that still really annoys me: That the Rinnengan are just the ultimate-super-duper-extra-special Sharingan. Right up until that bullhockey reveal, there was no real evidence that they were such a thing. Nagato (who was, in fact, a distant Uzumaki cousin of Naruto's) was treated as having awoken a legacy that had lain dormant for a long time.
We had 3 sets of "special eyes", each with unique strengths and abilities. Certainly in many ways the Byakugan lagged, not being able to shoot fire or generate illusions, but X-Ray Chakra Vision coupled with Gentle Fist was nothing to sneeze at. The Sharingan powers were potent but tiring and named after various deities (typical Uchiha, hm?). And the Rinnegan was sort of a mix of the two but weaker, and was packaged with the ability to make and control the Six Paths.
But NOPE! Now it's just the Awesome Sharingan! Wait, there was another set of eye powers? Are you sure you don't just mean weaker Uchiha?
....Wait! Crazy thought/theory with basically no basis in anything:
What if a Sharingan purified of the genetic crazy eventually becomes a Byakugan? Less powerful, but hey it doesn't make you crazy, that's a plus!
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Somewhere
The Uchiha genetic information comes from Sasuke talking to the first four Hokage. Particularly, it's Tobirama explaining to Sasuke's face how 'the Uchiha are evil'.
Tobirama's an ass, albeit new information makes it look more and more like a justified ass. Although I'd really love to know why he ends up developing Impure World Resurrection.
Incidentally, we're seeing the current flashback now because Sasuke asked Hashirama about what does being a ninja mean/what does village mean. And thus we're getting.... the history of Hashirama-Madara.
And this conversation is supposed to be what tips Sasuke in either continuing his 'KILL EVERYTHING' thing or dropping it.
Also, apparently the Hyuuga haven't shown up in the flashback yet. Aren't they supposed to be a big important noble clan of Konohagakure?
Correction, it's a flashback within a flashback.
And yes, we got the genetic brain thing from Tobirama. Maybe we'll find out why he created the Impure World Resurrection technique in the flashback, since it WAS revealed he finished it after Hasirama died.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frozen_Feet
Only Byakugan can see the chakra points, but Sharingan gives colors to chakra.
Regarding the recent explanation of the Sharingan, I have no problems with it since it makes so much sense. Neither do I think it absolves Tobirama or Danzo, as they pointedly did nothing to improve the situation.
I think the explanation opens up a new, interesting way for Sasuke's redemption - casting away the Sharingan and its legacy. Time will tell.
But there's one thing that bugs me about this scenario. Rinnegan are eyes of the sage, while Sharingan are eyes clouded by loss. How do you get the former from the latter? So far, the persons we've seen with the Rinnegan have all been about achieving world peace, though with questionable methods. (I do think Nagato's plan would've worked, though. See: real world MAD.)
Apparently, the first Sage of the Six paths was after something similar, based on what we know of him. I still think there's a piece of the puzzle missing.
Well, the main theory that I've heard is that you have to implant a Sharingan into somebody with Senju DNA, then.... SOMETHING, and Step 3: Profit! (Rinnegan) - hence all the Zetsu clones and Danzo's arm splice, they were all experiments to try and attain the Rinnegan.
Keep in mind that there is only ONE pair of Rinnegans around - Madara evolved the only pair in existence, which he then gave to Nagato, which Obito then stole from his corpse. Madara brought his own pair back with him when he got Edo Tensei'd - but he still is the only one to evolve it in existence. We probably won't know for sure until Madara feels like telling us.
My personal theory is that, given that the Sharingan seems to be so much more powerful than the Byakugan, and yet the Byakugan is guarded a HELL of a lot more closely, is that you get a Rinnegan by splicing a Byakugan eye into somebody that had an Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan.
This would clear the path for Sasuke stealing Hinata's eyes - and that being the catalyst Naruto needs to realize that he's beyond redemption.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Orochimaru just wants to be the very best, that no one ever was. He wants all the jutsu, all of it. As for what he's gonna do with it? Who the heck knows. Dude just likes ninja magic I guess.
Is that really the only motivation he has? New jutsu are invented...like... every day. Naruto made up the Rasen Shuriken thing in what, a week? Or is he a GENIUS now?
Also, if we get too deep into trying to itemize the Sharingan's unique abilities we will be here for quite some time. Offhand I can think of 12.
On the Itachi subject, I've had a soft spot in my heart for him. Sure, his plans were weird and he had kind of a BS hero-fication, but he managed to brainwash himself into being a good guy then instantly declare "I am ending this entire zombie debacle right now". Then he managed to actually do it. It was if he had decided to be as useful as possible to make up for his and the Uchiha's failings.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
My personal theory is that, given that the Sharingan seems to be so much more powerful than the Byakugan, and yet the Byakugan is guarded a HELL of a lot more closely, is that you get a Rinnegan by splicing a Byakugan eye into somebody that had an Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan.
This would clear the path for Sasuke stealing Hinata's eyes - and that being the catalyst Naruto needs to realize that he's beyond redemption.
While that would at least tie all the "major" bloodlines together....
If that happened I would be very sad, and also be hoping Naruto learns the Dust Release. Just to tie it into a Rasenshuriken when he hits Sasuke with it. :smallfurious:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cero Oscura
Is that really the only motivation he has? New jutsu are invented...like... every day. Naruto made up the Rasen Shuriken thing in what, a week? Or is he a GENIUS now?
Way back in the first part of the overall series, I though Orochimaru explicitly said "I want a Sharingan and immortality so I can learn ALL THE JUTSU".
And Naruto is a genius.
He's a GENIUS OF HARD WORK!!!
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KnightDisciple
And Naruto is a genius.
He's a GENIUS OF HARD WORK!!!
No... that's Lee's shtick...
Didn't Kakashi tell Naruto how to come up with the Rasenshuriken? And even he said, it was Minato's idea on the first place. Yeah, Naruto figured out how to do it, but that's not a stroke of genius. Also, he used his Kagebunshin to do the work much faster.
I'm not saying that's not smart but it's not genius.
I can only guess but I assume coming up with an entirely new jutsu requires some kind of ninja science, probably related to molding chakra we are unaware of.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kato
No... that's Lee's shtick...
Didn't Kakashi tell Naruto how to come up with the Rasenshuriken? And even he said, it was Minato's idea on the first place. Yeah, Naruto figured out how to do it, but that's not a stroke of genius. Also, he used his Kagebunshin to do the work much faster.
I'm not saying that's not smart but it's not genius.
I can only guess but I assume coming up with an entirely new jutsu requires some kind of ninja science, probably related to molding chakra we are unaware of.
Kakashi told Naruto about the idea of "combine the Rasengan with elemental chakra". Naruto had to figure out how to actually do it. And even then, that was the Wind Release: Rasengan, really. That's the step of "combine Elemental Chakra with Rasengan".
Rasenshuriken, and all the variations Naruto has pulled out at a moment's notice, are Naruto's own inventions.
Also, while he's technically "cheating" with Kage Bushin, it's still his brain that's processing the information.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Wasn't Rasenshuriken pretty much the instant effect when adding Wind chakra to the Rasengan? And his variations were mostly "let's use a whole bunch of them at once!" or something along these lines. That's like calling every new car model a new invention.
I'm not saying he didn't put any effort into it, I just don't see anything genius about it. (And having 100 brains instead of one is kind of cheating :smalltongue:)
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cero Oscura
Is that really the only motivation he has? New jutsu are invented...like... every day. Naruto made up the Rasen Shuriken thing in what, a week? Or is he a GENIUS now?
Unless being dead for awhile changed his outlook, then yes, that is his single motivation.
Also, I wouldn't say Naruto's a genius, he's just got some battle smarts. Like how he sneak attacks the dude with five hearts with Rasenshuriken. That was kinda clever. However, he's only SLIGHTLY battle smart, as he didn't realize that punching the Rasenshuriken into a dude tore his arm up as well.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cero Oscura
Is that really the only motivation he has? New jutsu are invented...like... every day. Naruto made up the Rasen Shuriken thing in what, a week? Or is he a GENIUS now?
That's my point. Learning all jutsu is generally the stepping stone to a greater goal, as basically the 'gather power until I can accomplish X' phase.
Orochimaru doesn't seem to HAVE an end goal. His goal for most of his plans in-comic were all geared towards him acquiring a Sharingan.
Like I said before, once he has the Sharingan he's going to.... nobody seems to know.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Oh wait. I just realized something that should've been obvious:
Kids. The Senju and Uchiha were supposed to have kids, signifying the reunification of their bloodlines and end of their feud.
How else would you naturally get senju DNA and Sharingan together? :smallcool:
(Of course, Madara took a shortcut...)
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
That's my point. Learning all jutsu is generally the stepping stone to a greater goal, as basically the 'gather power until I can accomplish X' phase.
Orochimaru doesn't seem to HAVE an end goal. His goal for most of his plans in-comic were all geared towards him acquiring a Sharingan.
Like I said before, once he has the Sharingan he's going to.... nobody seems to know.
Well, what he's gonna do is find a way to sneak around the world, and just stare at people until they do jutsu, so he then learns it with the Sharingan. I know it's kinda weird, but Orochimaru's sole motivation is simply knowledge. MAYBE, MAAAAYBE, he has a plan to do something with all this knowledge. But from all that we've seen so far, gaining every single jutsu in the world is his end goal.
In a way, it fits with the characterization of his rivalry with Jiriaya. Jiriaya became a sage, with great knowledge and great power. Orochimaru wants to gain that power and knowledge, but he's going about it using science instead of meditation and stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frozen_Feet
Oh wait. I just realized something that should've been obvious:
Kids. The Senju and Uchiha were supposed to have kids, signifying the reunification of their bloodlines and end of their feud.
How else would you naturally get senju DNA and Sharingan together? :smallcool:
(Of course, Madara took a shortcut...)
That's actually a really good catch their. Unfortunately, no females left for either side, far as I know :smallamused:
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frozen_Feet
Oh wait. I just realized something that should've been obvious:
Kids. The Senju and Uchiha were supposed to have kids, signifying the reunification of their bloodlines and end of their feud.
How else would you naturally get senju DNA and Sharingan together? :smallcool:
(Of course, Madara took a shortcut...)
The answer is yes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
That's actually a really good catch their. Unfortunately, no females left for either side, far as I know :smallamused:
Sasuke and Tsuande, assumming Tsuande gets better (he bisected me in half...I got better)
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
That's actually a really good catch their. Unfortunately, no females left for either side, far as I know :smallamused:
Meh, just draft one (or more) of Sasuke's numerous fangirls to produce new Uchiha in quantity sufficient to reasonably guarantee a female with the Sharingan. Sure, you'll have to wait a decade or two, but you were planning on waiting for kids to grow up anyway so what's adding one more generation to the plan?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kato
Wasn't Rasenshuriken pretty much the instant effect when adding Wind chakra to the Rasengan? And his variations were mostly "let's use a whole bunch of them at once!" or something along these lines. That's like calling every new car model a new invention.
I'm not saying he didn't put any effort into it, I just don't see anything genius about it. (And having 100 brains instead of one is kind of cheating :smalltongue:)
Nope. Initially, it just creates a Rasengan with Wind-chakra. It's easy to forget, since IIRC he only uses it twice--once against Kakashi's Rasengan when he first makes it, and once when he combines it with Yamato's Water Release: Tearing Torrent.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VanBuren
Nope. Initially, it just creates a Rasengan with Wind-chakra. It's easy to forget, since IIRC he only uses it twice--once against Kakashi's Rasengan when he first makes it, and once when he combines it with Yamato's Water Release: Tearing Torrent.
Yeah, why waste your time with an S rank technique when you can just bust out an S "Oh dear god run away" S rank jutsu instead.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
New chapter
Spoiler
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Nothing to amazing happening... Madara and Hashirama fighting, some rather pseudo-philosophical dialogue, Hashirama stabbing Madara in the back (lliterally) and possibly th end of the flashback.
I... really have little to say, I'm afraid. It was mostly fighting and reminiscing.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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I'd say below average chapter, nothing really happened. We get back from flashback at the very least. We didn't get Madara's side from the flashback, which means that he'll probably get one as well at some point.
And Madara bragged being able to see trough the wood clones in his battle against the kages. :smallconfused:
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
darksolitaire
Spoiler
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I'd say below average chapter, nothing really happened. We get back from flashback at the very least. We didn't get Madara's side from the flashback, which means that he'll probably get one as well at some point.
And Madara bragged being able to see trough the wood clones in his battle against the kages. :smallconfused:
Spoiler
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Well see it already got him the one time, so he's able to see through it now. I actually kind of blame the fact that Kabuto put Senju cells inside of his body after IWRing him, thus giving him a better connection to the wood element.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
darksolitaire
Spoiler
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I'd say below average chapter, nothing really happened. We get back from flashback at the very least. We didn't get Madara's side from the flashback, which means that he'll probably get one as well at some point.
And Madara bragged being able to see trough the wood clones in his battle against the kages. :smallconfused:
Look at the scene before that where they are talking before charging at each other.
His Sharingan isn't active - he's just got normal eyes. That's why he couldn't tell.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Spoiler
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*Throws magazine over shoulder*
About time! Next week, Sasuke's answer.
*Passes pitchforks and torches to everyone*
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Well, I liked this chapter. Sure, it wasn't incredibly eventful, but I liked it, especially seeing the formation of the Valley at the end.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Hashirama is the most upstanding character in the series, IMO. He does what he thinks is best for everyone, like many characters, but he's more than willing to acknowledge that he might be completely wrong and takes full responsibility for that.
Not like his brother.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
It's been far too long since an Uchiha was beaten on-screen. That needs to keep happening regularly.
Honestly, part of me still isn't seeing why those who have inherited the Will of Fire are so -lost- on their best friends that end up betraying them...
Hashirama to Madara.
Naruto to Sasuke.
Hiruzen to both Orochimaru -and- Hanzo.
Kakashi's the only person who didn't go most of his life being all wishy-washy about his friend, and that's only because he thought that friend was dead for most of the time. Jiraya's the only one who understands -early- that he's in a disfunctional relati-friendshi....
I now understand why people thought Naruto was gay for Sasuke. I thought they were being dumb at first, but I kinda see it now. Or maybe it's just me, but the whole "I'll kill myself over this jerk who wants to destroy everything I love and cherish" thing.... is it weird that I see that as a bit... off?
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
INoKnowNames
Hiruzen to both Orochimaru -and- Hanzo.
Hiruzen and Hanzo were friends? :smallconfused:
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Morph Bark
Hiruzen and Hanzo were friends? :smallconfused:
If I'm referring to the right person, I'd been under the assumption that the 3rd Hokage had indeed been friends with ... shoot, maybe I'm confusing Danzo with Hanzo. Hanzo's the Salamander, isn't he, and not Mr "Creepy-Root-10 Different Eyes In my Arm". Which ever -nzo it was. It can be Gonzo for all I care. MUPPET NO JUTSU!
http://www.toysrus.com/graphics/prod...3610906reg.jpg
The point still stands.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Yea, Danzo's the old ex-buddy of Hiruzen's.
Kishi's ToC comment for issue #19:
"Chichi ga joukyou****ekita node hajimete futari dakede sake wo nonda. Oyaji, nomi sugi!!"
Kishi's dad came to Tokyo, so for the first time just the two of them had a drink together. And his dad drinks excessively.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Morph Bark
Hiruzen and Hanzo were friends? :smallconfused:
He meant Danzo, not Hanzo.
Danzo is the guy with 10 Sharingan in his arm.
Hanzo rides a salamander and plays with poison.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Olinser
He meant Danzo, not Hanzo.
Danzo is the guy with 10 Sharingan in his arm.
Hanzo rides a salamander and plays with poison.
I'm warming up to the idea that it was the Elite Shinobi Gonzo, aided by his summon: Rizzo Mickey Mouse.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3008/2...f82ea34c6f.jpg
On a note that's a bit less random, remember a few months ago when I made the claim that the Sharingan was related to or the symptom of a mental illness most Uchiha shared? I absolutely loved that that got confirmed. I seriously freaking called it.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
INoKnowNames
It's been far too long since an Uchiha was beaten on-screen. That needs to keep happening regularly.
I hear ya.
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Originally Posted by INoKnowNames
Or maybe it's just me, but the whole "I'll kill myself over this jerk who wants to destroy everything I love and cherish" thing.... is it weird that I see that as a bit... off?
No. No, it is not. It is without doubt the greatest flaw in an otherwise great anime/manga. (In my not-ever-even-slightly-humble opionion.)
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Originally Posted by
INoKnowNames
I'm warming up to the idea that it was the Elite Shinobi Gonzo, aided by his summon: Rizzo Mickey Mouse.
Actually, in comparison to some of the apparent reveals of late, that doesn't sound all that far fetched...
And at least it'd be good for a laugh...
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
I personally choose to believe that what Naruto meant is that, due to how powerful Sasuke is, he will fatally wound Naruto, presumably at the same time Naruto fatally wounds Sasuke. It'll likely be the third time they do their special move super clash.
Valley of the End ended with them clashing Chittering Chidori and Vermillion Rasengan and almost dying, Bridge of Iron ended with them clashing Chidori and Rasengan and, though not almost dying, quite injured and leaving Naruto with the belief that next time they fight, they're both gonna die. Their last battle will be the third repetition of this. And much like Hashirama's resolve made him stab Madara in the back, Naruto's resolve will make him start this confrontation with Rasenshuriken. Sasuke will counter with like, a super powered Chidori, maybe even something Raikiri level. They'll clash, we'll see an explosion of power, as lightning scatters and wind rips, and the both of them will die.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
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Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
I hear ya.
No. No, it is not. It is without doubt the greatest flaw in an otherwise great anime/manga. (In my not-ever-even-slightly-humble opionion.)
Good. I'm so glad I'm not just seeing things. Especially things like this that shouldn't be seen.
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Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
And at least it'd be good for a laugh...
If my hand wasn't broken, I'd already be drawing/photoshoping it.
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Originally Posted by
Aotrs Commander
Actually, in comparison to some of the apparent reveals of late, that doesn't sound all that far fetched...
From what I hear, it's not as bad as what's happened in Bleach since you-know-who got Deus-Ex-Machina-Murdered. What's the worst that's happened recently? Mainly just Hashirama deciding that working with a man who wants you to kill yourself or your brother is an excellent idea.
I actually still wonder why Hashirama and his Wood Jutsu are stronger than Madara and his Fire Jutsu. I don't care that Wood is made out of Earth and Water, Fire Burns Wood and Evaporates Water; and besides, what protection does Hashirama have against being hypnotized again?
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Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
I personally choose to believe that what Naruto meant is that, due to how powerful Sasuke is, he will fatally wound Naruto, presumably at the same time Naruto fatally wounds Sasuke. It'll likely be the third time they do their special move super clash.
Valley of the End ended with them clashing Chittering Chidori and Vermillion Rasengan and almost dying, Bridge of Iron ended with them clashing Chidori and Rasengan and, though not almost dying, quite injured and leaving Naruto with the belief that next time they fight, they're both gonna die. Their last battle will be the third repetition of this. And much like Hashirama's resolve made him stab Madara in the back, Naruto's resolve will make him start this confrontation with Rasenshuriken. Sasuke will counter with like, a super powered Chidori, maybe even something Raikiri level. They'll clash, we'll see an explosion of power, as lightning scatters and wind rips, and the both of them will die.
If you're trolling, nice job for getting my jimmies rustled. Kudos.
Naruto didn't say that he and Sasuke would die because of feeling that attack and being hurt by it. He stated it as his answer to having to fight him again to defend the village, that he'd let Sasuke take out all of his hatred, and that Naruto would bear it all. Which is a kinda stupid answer if you ask me. Plus, Naruto wouldn't risk Sauce-Boss living and terrorizing everyone else in the world who is depending on Naruto to stop him. Hopefully by now, he's come up with a slightly better strategy than mutual self-destruction.
...assuming the choice is still his to make. Godzilla Fox inside him is completely unbound now, capable of switching with or without Naruto's consent for the good of both of them; he wouldn't let Naruto throw his life away for this jerk, even if all he does is throws up a chakra shroud to protect him from the backlash of their super-jutsu-clash.
Not to mention, since in this world Wind beats Electric, Naruto's Rasenshuriken would only be phased by Kirin, and while Sasuke's pulled a lot of tricks out of his ass, he can't summon Kirin at will. Meanwhile, the incredible power of the Rasen (with or without Tailed-Beast Power added to it) keeps a jutsu normally vunerable to Fire from being invalidated by it, so Sasuke's Amaterasu Spam can go suck itself. And if a technique can strike harder than Tsunade's Fists (which isn't as hard as one might think, and the Rasen techniques definitely would be a likely move), they can break through Susanoo.
At this point, it's hardly even Naruto's decision that he's going to end up thrashing Sasuke the next time they fight. And Naruto's -STILL- not at his full power level, since the other half of Kurama's Chakra is still sealed by the Reaper Death Seal.
I think that's probably why Naruto still hasn't found a -good- answer yet; the final fight needs to have drama in it some how, and Naruto holding back to try to preserve the life of his former comrade or trying to take all of his hatred; 's the only reason Naruto and Kurama don't flatten Emosuke.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
I was under the impression Naruto was completely certain that the both of them will die. I just recently played through the plot in the Naruto fighting game, which doesn't deviate from the canon except for the very end (to give it a conclusion) and Naruto said that he'll take all of Sasuke's hatred (as you said), and though he though he IS still trying to find an answer, Naruto DID say, "if we DO fight, we WILL both die"
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
I personally choose to believe that what Naruto meant is that, due to how powerful Sasuke is, he will fatally wound Naruto, presumably at the same time Naruto fatally wounds Sasuke. It'll likely be the third time they do their special move super clash.
Valley of the End ended with them clashing Chittering Chidori and Vermillion Rasengan and almost dying, Bridge of Iron ended with them clashing Chidori and Rasengan and, though not almost dying, quite injured and leaving Naruto with the belief that next time they fight, they're both gonna die. Their last battle will be the third repetition of this. And much like Hashirama's resolve made him stab Madara in the back, Naruto's resolve will make him start this confrontation with Rasenshuriken. Sasuke will counter with like, a super powered Chidori, maybe even something Raikiri level. They'll clash, we'll see an explosion of power, as lightning scatters and wind rips, and the both of them will die.
And as many, MANY people have pointed out, Naruto is an idiot for thinking so.
Naruto threw his victory in Valley of the End. At every turn it was shown that the Rasengan was a superior jutsu to the Chidori in power. His Rasengan was winning, but he knew if he 'won', he'd kill Sasuke with the explosion. So he took a fall, and gambled (correctly) that Sasuke wouldn't actually kill him.
Their 'fight' after Sasuke killed Danzo ended in a draw because Sakura the Retarded brought a poisoned kunai and managed to get Naruto stabbed with it
With his Kurama upgrade Naruto is now arguably the most powerful ninja in existence (arguable only because Madara is still kicking around).
There is no possible way that Sasuke can suppress Kurama again, simply because if it were possible, Madara would have done it.
Seriously, at this point by pure power if the fight between Naruto and Sasuke ends in anything other than a 3 second curb stomp in Naruto's favor it will require an extreme ass pull by the author.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
I was under the impression Naruto was completely certain that the both of them will die. I just recently played through the plot in the Naruto fighting game, which doesn't deviate from the canon except for the very end (to give it a conclusion) and Naruto said that he'll take all of Sasuke's hatred (as you said), and though he though he IS still trying to find an answer, Naruto DID say, "if we DO fight, we WILL both die"
I liked that resolution. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Falcon Punch to the Face For the Win!
But yeah, Naruto doesn't really have a choice in the matter. If Kurama or Hinata have anything to say about it, Naruto isn't allowed to die. (I still love Hinata for slapping the Emo out of Naruto. She owns him now. :smallredface:)
And why is he still trying? Sasuke was misguided when the two first fought, but he's taken steps to personally ensure past that that his friendship with Naruto and the Village didn't matter **** to him, and he wants everyone, even innocent people that didn't at all benefit from the Uchiha Slaughter, dead. He wants to stomp on everything Naruto holds dear, and wants Naruto dead, too. Why does he deserve any more pity?
Point Question Remains: Why do all these Will Of Fire guys still obsess over their Jerk Best Friend?
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Originally Posted by
Olinser
With his Kurama upgrade Naruto is now arguably the most powerful ninja in existence (arguable only because Madara is still kicking around).
Technically, Madara isn't a Ninja, he's a Ninja Zombie. So Naruto's easily the most powerful ninja in existance.
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Originally Posted by
Olinser
Seriously, at this point by pure power if the fight between Naruto and Sasuke ends in anything other than a 3 second curb stomp in Naruto's favor it will require an extreme ass pull by the author.
Depends on how much longer the series is. Kishi's not -too- terrible with the writing, he could figure something about. I'm actually open to Sasuke getting the Rinnengan sometime in the future... 6 Paths of Sasuke with the bodies of his family would be a genuinely challenging foe.... At least while Naruto's still trying not to kill him.
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Probably. Maybe it will be, though. Maybe it'll actually be a complete curbstomp. Hell, maybe Naruto will actually ninja him. Sneak up and strike, like how Hashirama backstabbed Madara (ignoring the huge monster fight they had before hand).
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LaZodiac
Probably. Maybe it will be, though. Maybe it'll actually be a complete curbstomp. Hell, maybe Naruto will actually ninja him. Sneak up and strike, like how Hashirama backstabbed Madara (ignoring the huge monster fight they had before hand).
Nah, he should have totally kept doing his Asura's Wraith cosplay, ending it with a Falcon Punch and outright knock Madara out of the Land of Fire. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
INoKnowNames
I liked that resolution. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Falcon Punch to the Face For the Win!
But yeah, Naruto doesn't really have a choice in the matter. If Kurama or Hinata have anything to say about it, Naruto isn't allowed to die. (I still love Hinata for slapping the Emo out of Naruto. She owns him now. :smallredface:)
And why is he still trying? Sasuke was misguided when the two first fought, but he's taken steps to personally ensure past that that his friendship with Naruto and the Village didn't matter **** to him, and he wants everyone, even innocent people that didn't at all benefit from the Uchiha Slaughter, dead. He wants to stomp on everything Naruto holds dear, and wants Naruto dead, too. Why does he deserve any more pity?
Point Question Remains: Why do all these Will Of Fire guys still obsess over their Jerk Best Friend?
Technically, Madara isn't a Ninja, he's a Ninja Zombie. So Naruto's easily the most powerful ninja in existance.
Depends on how much longer the series is. Kishi's not -too- terrible with the writing, he could figure something about. I'm actually open to Sasuke getting the Rinnengan sometime in the future... 6 Paths of Sasuke with the bodies of his family would be a genuinely challenging foe.... At least while Naruto's still trying not to kill him.
Well I will admit that there ARE 2 entirely reasonable paths available for Sasuke to get the Rinnegan.
1) Simplest is, of course, that he takes it from Obito after Naruto finishes pounding the piss out of him.
2) My personal theory also revolves around the fact that while the Sharingan has pretty consistently been shown to be the far more powerful eye bloodline, the Hyuuga clan has FAR tighter controls over the Byakugan. It was also stated that both the Byakugan and Sharingan came from the Rinnegan.
So my theory is that in order to get a Rinnegan, you have to transplant a Byakugan into somebody that has an Eternal Mangenkyo Sharingan. (Just like transplanting a Mangenkyo turns it into an Eternal Mangenkyo).
This would clear the path for Sasuke to rip Hinata's eyes out, and that being the final clue to Naruto that Sasuke is, in fact, a BAD GUY.
Still wouldn't be a challenge for Naruto though. He owned Obito pretty hard, and his Six Paths were basically Tailed Beasts 1-6, for crying out loud!