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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Dimensional Lock and Forbiddance are standard anti teleportation defenses.
In other words ... protection from scry and fry tactics is an active hazard to your health.
Oh, I'll grant that Dimensional Anchor would need to be targeted on you specifically, but it's likely that most wizards you're likely to run into at level 14+ can make the Knowledge check.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Does (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation screw with them too?
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
danielxcutter
Does (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation screw with them too?
Ethereal Jaunt doesn't have the Teleportation descriptor (as opposed to, say, Plane Shift), so presumably not.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
I was using the asterisk the save or die gaze. While it's not very powerful at this level, it should be noticed by the gm due to it potentially causing problems for their plans. Yes, it's easy to work around and even negate, but it's still extremely powerful if those precautions aren't taken and the player bumps the DC up.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aniikinis
I was using the asterisk the save or die gaze. While it's not very powerful at this level, it should be noticed by the gm due to it potentially causing problems for their plans. Yes, it's easy to work around and even negate, but it's still extremely powerful if those precautions aren't taken and the player bumps the DC up.
Fair point.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aniikinis
I was using the asterisk the save or die gaze. While it's not very powerful at this level, it should be noticed by the gm due to it potentially causing problems for their plans. Yes, it's easy to work around and even negate, but it's still extremely powerful if those precautions aren't taken and the player bumps the DC up.
Yeah, that's a problem too.
It also makes any sort of peaceful interaction very problematic.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
javcs
Yeah, that's a problem too.
It also makes any sort of peaceful interaction very problematic.
"Unless specified otherwise, a creature with a gaze attack can control its gaze attack and “turn it off ” when so desired."
In other words, peaceful interaction isn't a problem. What is a problem is using your gaze in combat while allies are nearby, but if we had to put asterisks on that then we'd have to put them on everything with an non-friendly AoE (including darkmantles, dragons, and anything with casting).
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
I was using the asterisk the save or die gaze. While it's not very powerful at this level, it should be noticed by the gm due to it potentially causing problems for their plans. Yes, it's easy to work around and even negate, but it's still extremely powerful if those precautions aren't taken and the player bumps the DC up.
I do agree on this.
Since its not -that- easy to negate. Its easy to remove the simplest protection (death ward). The DC can likely be buffed quite high.
And aoe death attacks are just a pain in general to deal with.
My vote goes for LA -0*.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
If nothing but for the sheer ally killing power, I agree with the asterisk and change my vote to -0*
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
I do agree on this.
Since its not -that- easy to negate. Its easy to remove the simplest protection (death ward). The DC can likely be buffed quite high.
And aoe death attacks are just a pain in general to deal with.
My vote goes for LA -0*.
I am not convinced any gaze attack needs a * for the sheer fact that it can be turned on and off as Inevitability repeatedly points out and there are the sunglasses that are what 50gp that block out your own gaze attack so you can pull a cyclops so I am not seeing an issue.
In this case, the save DC is low and you will have to put in a lot of effort to buff it and keep it relevant as the slayer continues to level up. Finally, as Lord_Khaine points out death ward is a hard block on the ability and being a mind-affecting affect found on a creature with 14 rhd there are also a slew of other methods to block this.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
We've never asterisked a gaze attack before. No reason to start now. It's a hassle, sure, but it's not a problem that needs DM intervention.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Celestia
We've never asterisked a gaze attack before. No reason to start now. It's a hassle, sure, but it's not a problem that needs DM intervention.
Heck, we've never asterisked an instantly lethal gaze attack before. Basilisks and medusae got +1, while bodaks got +0.
Increase the level adjustment if this gaze attack is somehow too much for 14th level, but it doesn't need an asterisk.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
-0 on Thought Slayer, not quite in asterisk territory.
Might have a heads up to DM for AoE death attack with permanent ethereal jaunt. Also the killed by dimensional lock. At level 14 I don't think that's breaking anything though. Actual death save-or-dies have been online for awhile.
And if its one trick doesn't work? It can't contribute. Beatstick with -4 BAB, one attack at 3d6. I don't see weapon use here. Mouthpick weapon is possible, again at -4 BAB. And no skills. Orc barbarian brings more damage and utility, to say nothing of orc warblade.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
I am not convinced any gaze attack needs a * for the sheer fact that it can be turned on and off as Inevitability repeatedly points out and there are the sunglasses that are what 50gp that block out your own gaze attack so you can pull a cyclops so I am not seeing an issue.
Its not for being a gaze attack, its for being a AOE save-or-die free action.
1/save per round swiftly adds up.
Quote:
Heck, we've never asterisked an instantly lethal gaze attack before. Basilisks and medusae got +1, while bodaks got +0.
Increase the level adjustment if this gaze attack is somehow too much for 14th level, but it doesn't need an asterisk.
I think as it has already been pointed out, bad decisions in the past should not affect decisions in the present.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
Its not for being a gaze attack, its for being a AOE save-or-die free action.
1/save per round swiftly adds up.
An AOE free-action save-or-die that also targets your allies (a 30 ft. radius doesn't fit in most dungeon rooms), that's mind-affecting and death-based, and that can be near-completely avoided by an opponent who says 'yeah, I just turn my back to you, grant you total concealment, and go fight those guys over there instead' (to say nothing of eyeless opponents).
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Thought Slayer votes:
-0: 7 votes
-0* (ethereal dependency): 1 vote
-0* (save or die gaze): 3 votes
Something I don't think we've ever seen before: different people voting for an asterisk for different reasons. This time, the majority of -0-voters meant it wasn't an issue, but I figure I should make clear how I plan to deal with this in the future.
-Different reasons for -0* can't reinforce one another. If three people think something needs a +0* for its Gate SLA, three think it needs +0* for its inability to move, and four think it's just fine at +0, then the +0 voters will win.
-Right now if you vote for -0 LA without specifying why, I'll just count your vote in with the group of -0 voters. If there's multiple possible reasons by the time you vote, your vote will be distributed among those camps. Let's call it an incentive to explicitly describe your reasoning.
If there's any scenario not covered by this, do please bring it to my attention. I don't know how often something like this is going to happen, but it seems smart to have a few rules for it at least.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Thri-Kreen: appearing no weirder than some other +0 PC races, but for some reason saddled with 2 HD and +2 LA. Let's see if we can change that.
As mentioned, Thri-Kreen have 2 monstrous humanoid RHD. They're medium size, and have a net +2 to abilities (+4 dexterity, +2 strength and wisdom, -2 intelligence, -4 charisma). Their chassis additionally gives them +3 natural armor, a weak bite that can deliver poison (1d6 dex/2d6 minutes of paralysis) once per day, and a whopping +30 natural Jump bonus.
They also have four limbs, each tipped with an 1d4 claw. More interestingly, they can wield weapons in all or some of those limbs. In addition to opening up multiweapon fighting, this can be used to add another strength modifier of damage to each hit with a regular weapon.
Thri-Kreen also get Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat, a feat that I had completely forgotten about before now.
Finally, they get a few PLAs: 3/day Chameleon, 3/day Know Direction, 1/day Greater Concealing Amorpha, and 1/day Metaphysical Claw.
I think that all of that, combined with only two (quite okay) HD, is worth +1 LA. Do discuss!
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
I like this guy for pounce and leap attack. I think +1 sounds good. I might even go +0 in my games.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Honestly, a Thri-Kreen makes a devastating Rogue with the extra limbs.
Even still, I would bump the LA down to +1.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Inevitability
Thought Slayer votes:
-0: 7 votes
-0* (ethereal dependency): 1 vote
-0* (save or die gaze): 3 votes
Something I don't think we've ever seen before: different people voting for an asterisk for different reasons. This time, the majority of -0-voters meant it wasn't an issue, but I figure I should make clear how I plan to deal with this in the future.
-Different reasons for -0* can't reinforce one another. If three people think something needs a +0* for its Gate SLA, three think it needs +0* for its inability to move, and four think it's just fine at +0, then the +0 voters will win.
-Right now if you vote for -0 LA without specifying why, I'll just count your vote in with the group of -0 voters. If there's multiple possible reasons by the time you vote, your vote will be distributed among those camps. Let's call it an incentive to explicitly describe your reasoning.
If there's any scenario not covered by this, do please bring it to my attention. I don't know how often something like this is going to happen, but it seems smart to have a few rules for it at least.
This seems reasonable for rating '*' where there are different reasons identified for why something is getting the '*'; however, I don't think breaking up the votes for -0 or +0 makes sense. For example if five people say -0 this thing can't move, and another five say -0 those ability scores are abysmal I don't think it makes sense to split those up into two camps. Similarly, if we have 6 people saying this thing is fine at +0, 4 saying I think ability X bumps this thing into +1 territory, and another 4 saying I think ability y bumps this into +1 territory it seems clear to me that 8 people all agree this should be +1 and it is unreasonable to go with +0 because they disagree on the straw that breaks the camel's back...
Thri-Kreen ability scores are a wash, having -2 int hurts but isn't horrible and -4 cha makes a lot of classes moot. +3 NA is on par for 2 rhd and monstrous humanoid rhd are decent, +2 bab good ref and will, d8, and simple weapon prof with an ok list of skills. Add on to that the goody bag of things, a bonus feat, four arms with claws that can hold a weapon and a bite with poison, leap, weapon familiarity and naturally psionic are enough to balance this at 2 rhd adding in the psi-like abilities seems to pump it over the edge and comfortably into +1 LA.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
If it weren't for the PLAs, I'd say this thing was fine at +0. Those give it just enough to bump it to +1. I'd totally go for a non-psionic thri-kreen at +0, though.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
I concur, the Thri-kreen are a respectable +1.
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I disagree with splitting unspecified -0s (or any other unspecified number assignments). I would understand splitting unspecified * assignments.
However, I'd like to suggest that if the * is going to be used solely for "this is game breaking" we might need (or at least want) an indicator for "this creature may or may not be game breaking, but it requires DM attention".
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
javcs
However, I'd like to suggest that if the * is going to be used solely for "this is game breaking" we might need (or at least want) an indicator for "this creature may or may not be game breaking, but it requires DM attention".
This is not a bad suggestion, though generally those 'general DM caution remarks' are also covered in the individual monster's write-up, so I'd expect a DM allowing people to use these LA's would also check those write-ups for the monsters the PC's have chosen.
As for the Thri-keen, +1 LA is fine. It's main strength imho lies in the ability to pick up multi-weapon fighting on a rogue build. The shear amount of attacks can be devastating, and I have played the non-psionic thri-keen (its in shining south) at +1LA without feeling like I was behind.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
+ 1 for thri keen. I like my bug mens. It's above par with 2 good rhd, and a bunch of goodies. Plus you are a giant bug for coolness points. It is also one of the few ways to get use out of the mobility of the jump skill with that massive bonus. Neat if not super powerful.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
I have a soft spot for Thri-Kreen; most of my MWF builds use the non-psionic variant from Shining South as the base critter. Getting 4 arms at such low investment, without the caveats of the Diopsid, is awesome; and you get full BAB for the RHD. That becomes doubly important when I use the Multi-headed creature template, inflating the RHD.
Anyway, I am leaning towards a strong LA +1, with or without the psionics. The PLAs I can take or leave, and those ability penalties are no joke; while the 1/day poison might as well be fluff. However, the Cha hit is manageable, and you are not building a skill monkey anyway so the Int hit is meh. The overall package built around those 4 arms is enough to keep up a level behind when you play to the strengths.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
javcs
However, I'd like to suggest that if the * is going to be used solely for "this is game breaking" we might need (or at least want) an indicator for "this creature may or may not be game breaking, but it requires DM attention".
Most monsters will require some DM attention. It's the nature of the beast, pun intended. Just the monsters who lack thumbs or can't fit through normal doorways would be numerous enough alone to render the additional marker almost meaningless.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
I think it earns LA: +1, even on a beatstick with no Con bonus.
RHD are never great, but only two and they come with full BAB and two good saves. 2+Int skills and -2 Int mean you may well have Spot and only Spot, but at least you have a Wis bonus.
Even without the PLA's, it has some goodies. Especially +2 Str and 5 natural attacks, 4 at full BAB. And wielding 4 weapons is absolutely an option. I think it would be too strong at low levels at LA: +0.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Huh, I'm surprised to see LA above +0 for this. I don't seem to have much brain available these last few weeks, so I'm not going to try crunching the numbers myself, but ... anybody want to run a comparison, kreen-plus-one-class-level vs. standard level 4 PC beatstick or blender?
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Psionic Thri Kreen eh? Let me take a look.
- +2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha: net +2. Meh.
- 2 RHD, Monstrous Humanoid: full BAB, two good saves. Not great, but not terrible either.
- Base speed 40 ft: not bad.
- Darkvision 60 ft: OK.
- Immunity to magic sleep: situational, but not bad.
- +3 natural armor bonus: OKish.
- Multiple limbs: this is the real draw-card of this race, IMHO.
- Four claws and a bite: good for the right build.
- Poison - 1d6 Dex/paralysis: not too bad.
- +30 racial bonus to Jump: pretty awesome if you build around it.
- +4 racial bonus to Hide in certain settings: meh.
- Weapon familiarity: meh.
- Naturally psionic: 1 power point.
- Psi-like abilities: these seem decent, but not amazing.
- Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat: not an amazing feat, but all bonus feats are nice - and you avoid all those messy reqs for this particular feat.
I'm fairly happy to chime in with the others saying LA +1. Pretty solid LA +1, IMHO. You've already lost 2 class levels - at LA +1, you can still hit 9th level manoeuvres or spells.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dimers
Huh, I'm surprised to see LA above +0 for this. I don't seem to have much brain available these last few weeks, so I'm not going to try crunching the numbers myself, but ... anybody want to run a comparison, kreen-plus-one-class-level vs. standard level 4 PC beatstick or blender?
No hard comparison, but a at +1 Thri-Kreen Warblade 1 has 2d8+1d12. 2hp down to 4d8. Take Sudden Leap and Blood in the Water, plus whatever. Multiweapon Fighting as one feat. Light critfishing build. 4 Kukris, and a bag of Chatkchas for range.
Use your 40' speed to kite (aided by free Deflect Arrows) if you want, or close and melee. Either way Sudden Leap lets you move and full attack (or full attack and then move) with your +40 jump check.
A scout build (into swift hunter?) would work well also, and various other things I can think of.
I think it's already into +1 right there. And then we have the powers, darkvision, various immunities, free power point, etc.
Solid to excellent +1.